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Braavos36402 Posts
On October 04 2006 07:55 _Carlodajin_ wrote:
SlayerS_`BoxeR` raped Savior!...Now STFU defending him!...I havent seen the match yet...but i know the result already...IlOveOOv raped Savior so SlayerS_`BoxeR` will double rape Savior...i already know that!...Savior is a good player but someone defending him with nonsense its just too irritating! :D...Now let me see that match in Crunchyroll!...
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i just wanna say thank you to VioleTAK cause he's uploading these VODs to Youtube. NJ 
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Re-read what I wrote. I never called Savior the best gamer ever -- I called him the most dominating. I'm speaking entirely in terms of his ability to control the tempo of the game.
The title of best ever is more of a toss up between Boxer and NaDa. NaDa's career seems to me slightly more accomplished, but Boxer's career was marked by development of the game that was ahead of its time. Certainly it goes without saying that Boxer was the most influential gamer in the history of Starcraft.
Nobody is unbeatable, not even in their best. Was Boxer not at his best during the SKY 2001 finals? Yet Garimto won, and we all remember that game 5. Even by today's standards Garimto did an obscenely good job breaking down one of the best set-up fast pushes I have ever seen.
And what about NaDa? During his reign he was the MSL king, not much unlike Savior, but he only put up one OSL title until IOPS, by which point he was already past his prime.
July? Never had a good record against NaDa.
Oov? In the begining he had poroblems against July; later he had problems against Savior.
And come on Superjongman, I would think a forum regular here would already know that I've been praising Savior for this whole past year. When Tfeign posted all that shit about Chojja having the best ZvT, who was the person who said Savior's ZvT is better? Me.
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
On October 04 2006 08:22 Hot_Bid wrote: [removed quote within quote]
ROFL OMGGGGGG Ahahahahahahahahah
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On October 04 2006 08:22 Hot_Bid wrote: [removed quote within quote]
This definitely must be added in a deck 
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On October 04 2006 08:36 Mortality wrote:
Nobody is unbeatable, not even in their best. Was Boxer not at his best during the SKY 2001 finals? Yet Garimto won, and we all remember that game 5. Even by today's standards Garimto did an obscenely good job breaking down one of the best set-up fast pushes I have ever seen.
Dude what?
I saw this game. Boxer had two factories that he wasn't using half the time while GARIMTO was continuously making units from like 4 or 5 Gateways. How couldn't he win?
In fairness, GARIMTO's win in game 1 is probably still one of the greatest performances by a Protoss ever.
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But Mortality, I'm just saying Oov was the most dominating ever. In his era, his time, Oov killed every legend and pissed off countless people. Yellow? Boxer? Reach?
I know Savior is #1 Z, but he is not more dominating right now than Boxer was, Nada was, Oov was, July was. There is finally a non-fuckn terran who can be on a dominating level as those guys.
I didn't even mention Chojja vs Savior, I don't think I even have to bother? Savior is on that level with July and I don't think Savior is more dominating than those 4 were. Yeah, July in his prime was also truly truly terrifying... I didn't wanna admit it even, watching Gillette was like watching Ra vs Savior.
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I don't think Savior is overrated. He still has a long way to go before people can start considering him one of the 3-4 greatest players ever, but if he keeps his pace for a few more years and, most of all, finally achieves something in OSL (which is his only real "miss" so far, since he didn't even qualify once... what a pity), then he'd become a serious contender to be part of that list. And I think he does have the potential.
As for yesterday's games, as I said in the live report thread I think it was a combination of Savior playing awesomely well and Boxer playing really really average, leading to a real, logical carnage. Games 2 and 3 were absolutely masterful from Savior who played his own style with perfection: harrassing constantly with drops/mutas while powering expos/drones like a whore, and then rolling over his opponent with twice as much income. This is a risky kind of play but since the guy also has almost perfect micro/timing/decisions/scouting (esp. scouting as he's one of the only Z that keeps scouting everywhere with lings to spot proxies and expos), he basically makes it look extremely easy... even kind of imbalanced.
Yellow looked less good on basically every single aspect of the game and Boxer wasn't really playing better than vs Savior either, except well, it seems it was enough to beat Yellow. The last game was quite cool though. But overall Boxer played sloppy in pretty much every single of his games and I'm quite sure he wouldn't have lost the first series 3-0 vs Savior had he been in his best shape. Bit of a shame.
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On October 04 2006 08:22 Hot_Bid wrote: [removed quote within quote]
hehe, I hope you'll make one of these everytime he posts, good shit
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On October 04 2006 11:34 PoP wrote:
Yellow looked less good on basically every single aspect of the game and Boxer wasn't really playing better than vs Savior either, except well, it seems it was enough to beat Yellow. The last game was quite cool though. But overall Boxer played sloppy in pretty much every single of his games and I'm quite sure he wouldn't have lost the first series 3-0 vs Savior had he been in his best shape. Bit of a shame.
Boxer definitely played better in his games vs. Yellow strategically speaking. The games he lost vs. Yellow were lost because he tried strategies that were doomed to faliure. In games 2,3, and 5 Boxer played a straight up TvZ game and won because even when he isn't at his best he's still better than Yellow at StarCraft in every concievable way.
If he had been in his best shape he could have taken Savior 3-2 and crushed Yellow 3-0. The first series we saw Boxer playing terrible strategies with sub-par micro and macro backing them (he microed and macroed well game 3 but it was too late by then). Vs. Yellow we saw conclusively than even when only sporadically playing good, Boxer is still better than Yellow at StarCraft in every way that you can imagine.
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I wouldn't go as far as saying boxer > yellow in every way that you can imagine -.-
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We definitely didn't see Boxer in his best shape yesterday, he was probably nervous as hell. What surprised me was that some of the the strategies he'd prepared (in the first four games at least, I couldn't see the rest) were horrible.
Game 1
I liked his strategy to expand very early, then defend with turrets/valks, take the map control with valks and (probably) start dropping.
I think his downfall this game was that he was a little overaggressive with his valkyries early on. Savior's scourging was absolutely flawless, and it allowed him to keep the valkyrie numbers down. Because of that he could harass with his Mutas, keep Boxer in his base, while expoing everywhere. Had Boxer managed to build up a large number of Valkyries, Savior's position would've been very dangerous, he wouldn't have been able to expo easily, because of fear of drops, and Boxer would've had total map control.
Game 2
I seriously do not know what Boxer was thinking. Maybe he was trying to show everyone he could win a macro war, but 14 ccing as Boxer against Savior is suicide. Savior totally manhandled him, it was cruel to watch. Boxer wasn't even near winning any fight that game.
Game 3
I couldn't see the first ~5 minutes because of lag, but it looked like Savior scouted Boxer's factory, raped Boxer's m&m and raped him? Then he let him live a little to be nice/cruel?
Game 1 against Yellow was stupid. Why Boxer still refused to go something normal like 2 rax is beyond me. Yellow reacted well to the goliaths, going mass muta and expanding to the islands, where Boxer had no chance of attacking. Boxer had to re-expand to keep up with Yellow's economy, and Yellow just attacked wherever Boxer's goliaths wasn't. Why Boxer'd go 2 fac on this map...
The rest of the games I couldn't see because my internet was suddenly extremely slow...
Boxer would've needed his very best game to win against Savior, but he was far from it yesterday. Savior played immaculate like he usually does. I'm extremely unhappy he lost 0-3, I felt like the win against Yellow didn't count for anything, because what good is it if Boxer can beat his old rival, when he can't keep up with the modern Zergs anymore? (not that I think that's true, but that's the message it sends.)
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We definitely didn't see Boxer in his best shape yesterday, he was probably nervous as hell. What surprised me was that some of the the strategies he'd prepared (in the first four games at least, I couldn't see the rest) were horrible.
Game 1
I liked his strategy to expand very early, then defend with turrets/valks, take the map control with valks and (probably) start dropping.
I think his downfall this game was that he was a little overaggressive with his valkyries early on. Savior's scourging was absolutely flawless, and it allowed him to keep the valkyrie numbers down. Because of that he could harass with his Mutas, keep Boxer in his base, while expoing everywhere. Had Boxer managed to build up a large number of Valkyries, Savior's position would've been very dangerous, he wouldn't have been able to expo easily, because of fear of drops, and Boxer would've had total map control.
Game 2
I seriously do not know what Boxer was thinking. Maybe he was trying to show everyone he could win a macro war, but 14 ccing as Boxer against Savior is suicide. Savior totally manhandled him, it was cruel to watch. Boxer wasn't even near winning any fight that game.
Game 3
I couldn't see the first ~5 minutes because of lag, but it looked like Savior scouted Boxer's factory, raped Boxer's m&m and raped him? Then he let him live a little to be nice/cruel?
Game 1 against Yellow was stupid. Why Boxer still refused to go something normal like 2 rax is beyond me. Yellow reacted well to the goliaths, going mass muta and expanding to the islands, where Boxer had no chance of attacking. Boxer had to re-expand to keep up with Yellow's economy, and Yellow just attacked wherever Boxer's goliaths wasn't. Why Boxer'd go 2 fac on this map...
The rest of the games I couldn't see because my internet was suddenly extremely slow...
Boxer would've needed his very best game to win against Savior, but he was far from it yesterday. Savior played immaculate like he usually does. I'm extremely unhappy he lost 0-3, I felt like the win against Yellow didn't count for anything, because what good is it if Boxer can beat his old rival, when he can't keep up with the modern Zergs anymore? (not that I think that's true, but that's the message it sends.)
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On October 04 2006 01:05 SuperJongMan wrote:
lol guys shut up and watch Midas vs Savior last MSL again. You guys are ridiculous.
Yes Savior is the best zerg atm, but July's style was considered invincible for awhile and it wasn't long before gaps appeared. In Midas vs Savior, you can finally see where Savior is evenly matched with his opponent. He is just finally a zerg on the same level as Midas and those 70% winners, the S-Classes.
Just because he crushed Boxer, people are like.. most dominating EVER... lol
You guys obviously don't remember the Terran Terror that was ILoveOov.
Still, Savior IS disgusting but reigns of terror from a player don't come like they used to. Everyone is too sick to let that happen nowadays. But there are still players who can stand toe-to-toe with him and not be an underdog.
One thing I do wish I had gotten to see one last time was Boxer's dropships... T.T
thats because july had a very specific style, his extreme lurk ling aggressiveness was very strong early game, with his micro. especially vs all the fast expo terrans. but once you know something like that could be coming and can prepare for it it isnt nearly as effective.
savior, on the other hand, doesnt rely on anything like that. hes just really really good in all aspects.
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agreed. And even july doesn't do 2 hatch as often anymore.
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AM I the ONLY ONE who gets tired of, - "yeah, but OSL is the tournament that REALLY matters!".
It sounds just like some geeky kid sore loser saying "Do it on LAN!" after losing to a better player.
- They play the same players on similar maps in similar conditions and they all do their damndest to win! The way qualifying rounds are set up is a bit of hit and miss and thus luck dependant. 2 wins and 1 loss maximum, plus your next opponent will depend on the first game, also all maps aren't equally good for all races.
However, once you're qualified, you can prove your worth, but it's very hard to qualify and I must say savior has indeed proved his worth this last year. He stands out clearly as the best BW player today imo with 2 titles and 1 finals, plus lots of proleague victories. This is only for records though.
The reason why I dissed the Chojja bandwagon and Chojja as best zerg at the moment is because of the same reasons, he doesn't win convincingly (except in ZvZ which he shows great understanding despite his recent losses.) His ZvP is appalling just like Yellows by progaming standards and the ZvT games were usually map dependant and still damn close when he won, or bad rapes when he lost.
So just look at the way they play and you'll easily be able to tell if their over or underrated.
Players that are doing poorly right now for no reason at all, Reach (too stupid), Nada (same), July (same). The feeling I get is that they play the same way they do in tournaments as when they practice or just play for fun. It's like they can't shift into second gear. They know they rape and outplay people in normal games, but when the real deal is on, they don't rise a notch and play smarter / better.
end rant.
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Yellow on the other hand just look totally crappy. He only know how to play all-in. If terran gets hold of an expo he's in trouble. He playing style is so fucking lazy it's crazy. He doesn't know when or how to power and instead just builds lings or hydras when he is harassing for instance.
A good pro zerg like Savior for instance decides on the other hand to power and build drones and expansions and that's the reason he gets mutalisks. To prevent a terran from leaving his base. Yellow instead tries to kill tons of shit and usually fails and thus must fight off of 2 or a maximum of 3 base economy against a 2 base economy terran. This leads to eventual and definite horrible rape, cuz Yellow is also too lazy and clueless to tech to hive.
What I mean when I say lazy is that it is so much easier to just go through your hotkeys and builds units from your hatcheries, instead of building drones and ordering them to mine or send them with good timing to new expansions. The same goes for tech.
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Did you just call Yellow clueless? Holy shit.
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On October 03 2006 17:24 DTDominion wrote:Overall commentsBoxer basically ceded control of the game flow to Savior strategically every game. The most intelligent strategy I've seen against Savior is to go 8 rax or to go 1/2 rax fast CC, which Boxer didn't do any of the games. In his post game interview Boxer said that attempting a Bunker rush was necessary against zergs of Savior's level. So why not!?!?!? If Boxer had put his all into these games and still lost I wouldn't really care, because Savior is simply a best and you can only do so much, but Boxer didn't seem to be trying at all. 
Boxer in an interview stated that he had a different strategy for every game. So im sure for the sake of flahyness he wasnt going to open every game with an 8 rax or fast CC. Plus that would get boring 5 games in a row. Im sure he was more worried about the "game" than he was about the win.
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On October 04 2006 10:15 SuperJongMan wrote:
But Mortality, I'm just saying Oov was the most dominating ever. In his era, his time, Oov killed every legend and pissed off countless people. Yellow? Boxer? Reach?
I know Savior is #1 Z, but he is not more dominating right now than Boxer was, Nada was, Oov was, July was. There is finally a non-fuckn terran who can be on a dominating level as those guys.
I didn't even mention Chojja vs Savior, I don't think I even have to bother? Savior is on that level with July and I don't think Savior is more dominating than those 4 were. Yeah, July in his prime was also truly truly terrifying... I didn't wanna admit it even, watching Gillette was like watching Ra vs Savior.
You really, really aren't understanding what I am saying, and I feel I must repeat myself. When I talk about "dominating," I'm talking about controlling the rhythym of the game, NOT how intimidating someone is. Rhythym control has nothing to do with win/loss records, and everything to do with the pace of the game you are playing. It's a part of individual games.
Boxer has never been a master of controlling the rhythym of the game. He's just smart enough to find the holes in his opponent's rhythym and exploit them. Did IntoTheRain not say that he enjoys watching Boxer play the most because Boxer is imperfect?
What's fun about Boxer is not his perfection, not his ability to tune to game to his own tempo, but his ability to make-up for his shortcomings by finding the hole to exploit and exploiting it.
NaDa I will give you can compete in rhythym control, but you are listing him for the wrong reason. You're listing him based on accomplishments, not based on rhythym control. Same with Oov, but I feel also that to some extent Oov tries to force the rhythym of the game rather than controlling it, dominating it.
July wasn't really a master of rhythym. He was just someone who could perfectly play all-in, but that's why players like NaDa presented such a huge challenge to him -- July couldn't break NaDa's rhythym.
If you know anything about parenting or owning pets, then you know that there is a huge difference between forcing something and controlling it. If you yell at a kid to try to make him do what you want, then you are trying to force him and unless his self-confidence is terribly low, he will be resistant to you. What you want to do is dominate them. This is more of an artform than anything else. The child (or animal as the case may be -- and yes, the same tricks work on both) responds to various cues from your body language, tone and inclination that tell him/her/it that YOU are the alpha and YOU are in control.
This is what the word "dominating" is in reference to, except instead of talking about dominating the person, I'm talking about dominating the rhythym, the flow of the game -- that intangible force that tells you who is controlling the game.
Savior has outstanding micro and macro, but it is neither of those that make him the player who he is. What makes Savior the best Zerg in the world is his understanding of how to control the flow. No matter what choice you make, Savior has a plan on how to use your own strategy against you. Savior not only controls his own rhythym, but whether you realize it or not, he is controlling yours as well!
Edit: It could be said that July tries to win by breaking his opponent's rhythym, where as Savior wins by dominating it. In general, more passive players are better at dominating the rhythym than aggressive players by neccessity, but some low econ players like Yellow[name] never cease to amaze me. The rhythym control of that 1 hatch muta on 815 against Oov was just astounding.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/156/carlosdjinnma7.jpg)
