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Hong Kong20296 Posts
On October 05 2006 02:31 YoUr_KiLLeR wrote:
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are you fuckin serious ahahahahahaahaha. i cant decide if you're trolling right now.
this once again proves that tfeign knows nothing about starcraft and needs numbers and statistics to guide him.
lol i thought it was quite bad before, now i just ........yeah - _-
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Did Boxer play at his best during the superfight? It didn't seem like it to me.
Did he spend anytime practicing for this? It seems that he spent most of his time doing other stuff, such as hanging out with friends and family, and enjoying his last few weeks before he has to go off ot the military.
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On October 05 2006 02:10 siro) wrote:
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So when the new rankings come out that include this MSL, you'll admit savior > chojja?
Hahaha. He wont but yes because Kespa is such a bastion of e-sports player ranking it will be undisputable that Savior > Chojja!!!
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Saviour is the form-player in the world right now, period.
in a year he'll be slumping just like boxer, reach, oov, nada, xellos etc all did after they peaked
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On October 04 2006 19:16 Myxomatosis wrote:
Why are you arguing this on the Superfight thread? :/...We should be talking about when IlOveOOv raped Savior and Savior fans said he wanted to lose...now when Savior got raped by IlOveOOv Savior was playing for a tournament...its more possible that SlayerS_`BoxeR` wanted to give a 100% vs YellOw and losed 3 fast games than Savior wanted to...what was it?...Saving strategies for more important match?...Dont you see it?...SlayerS_`BoxeR` vs YellOw was the real Superfight match!...5 awesome matches to be remembered by all SlayerS_`BoxeR fans!...
huh?
That was in its right place until you say that you know :/...
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On October 04 2006 22:17 tfeign wrote:
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1) No
2) And there are just as many reasons why #1 is #1
3) Doesn't change the fact that Kespa is the world's #1, most credible&reputable source for ranking players in the history of e-sport
4) Kespa uses results in mechanical formulas to determine ranking without bias. People are biased based on many factors.
Feel free to believe who you think is #1. But I hold my own view, and the most reputable e-sport-ranking organization agrees with me, that Chojja is currently the world's #1 player.
You've got to be trolling. I refuse to believe that someone is as stupid as you.
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On October 04 2006 21:54 SuperJongMan wrote:
Morality -
Boxer and July's style, Offensive rhythm breaks. Swords
Oov, Savior, Nada, Shields. Macro Oriented impenetrable Defence (Boxer too, but not the same style of defence)
Shield vs Sword. Classic argument, neither side is wrong, I just think you should give swords like Casy Boxer Anytime and July more credit. Also, I don't think Savior's gameflow is as untouchable as Oov and Nada in their primes. They all had that perfect armor aura. In the end, it's a matter of opinion but I do understand what you are saying, I just wanna say Swords are a different and just as effective form of rhythm control. Well, maybe not as effective at the moment, but Anytime and Casy's rise lead me to believe otherwise.
EDIT - Example I thought of, Casy vs Yellow on Peaks, Casy's early rush pretty much gave him the game control all game. Chojja vs Casy, his intitiative the whole series won it for him. Casy vs Anytime on 815, that is still imo, the ultimate sword game in recent times. Simply exploiting lack of a perfect defense to tie up Anytime's ability to do anything through constant effective offensives.
No, it's not a sword vs shield argument. Obviously shield players prefer to control their opponent's flow rather than break it and the opposite is true for sword players, but that is only generally speaking. Casy, the very player you mentioned in your example, is very strong at controling the flow rather than breaking it. In fact, in his series vs Yellow, Casy generally did better when he controlled the flow rather than trying to break Yellow's flow, or at least that was my impression. The commentators seemed to agree from what I hear.
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Yes, IPXZerg is the most dominant player right now. Chojja isn't even top 5. He does well when he faces many zergs, which he did in recent tournaments, but still in ZvZ IPX is at least his equal IMO.
2nd most dominant player atm? I think Midas...
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How can you consider oov, july, savior on all the new progamer to come on the same level as someone like yellow/boxer/H.O.T.forever and maybe nada.
Let me explain my point.
oov, savior grown up with the imagine of Starcraft and progaming in korea. It was everywhere, they knew what it was, they worked for it and yea atm they are DOMINATING. Nothing to take from them, they are really good in every aspect of the game.
But when you talk about Boxer, Yellow, HOT (retired now)... Those guys didnt grown up with progaming, they created the progaming job. They were there when it started. They built the image of a progamer, the lifestyle, the training method. Plus, the game was still in developement back then, so it was all about who was more creative. Now its all about who make a small mystake lose and its normal after 6+ year of progaming, they know the game.
Dont try to say Savior is the best of all ..... neither is oov, neither is nada, neither is July. For how long have they been in the top 30 of progaming ? 1 year ? 2 year ? maybe 3 at top.
Boxer / yellow are in that top for like 6 year straight.. Thats consistancy.
Who is the best ? A hockey player who score 90 goal in 1 season and then 20 goal for 5 year straight or a player that score 50 goal 6 season in a row ?
Yea you got the point.
Those guys built the progaming scene, they developp the game, devellope new play style, adaptation, timing, strategie, micro management. Yes Savior/oov/july are the new star atm and its cool ... programing need new star to keep improving and keep the fan interrested but no they are not what boxer/yellow/hot were .... and they will never be unless they keep that dominance for 5 year +
Its like saying whos the best hockey player ? Mario Lemieux or Maurice Richard. One was the best player on the ice 5-6 year ago. One is simply a legend.
You cant compare both 
And for the game.
Savior played flawlessly 3 games in a row. It was not only impressive it was PERFECT.
Boxer was not playing like he used too .... I mean u remember boxer loosin shuttle to scourge randomly back in the day ?  I dont he would micro those ship like crazy but those game he didnt even try to avoid scourges he just lost those ship.
Same thing with Vessel. You remember boxer moving his army with 1 vessel ahead of his whole army diein to 2 scourges ? I dont either
And the most entertaining game were defenetly Boxer vs Yellow game 5 cuz it seem that both decided to play it old school TvZ and it remind me so good memories about this game
Those guy legend of progaming. They made what it is today and if all of you are so exited about topic related to progamer and pro tournament in korea is only because of people like those 2. Show some respect
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Boxer has not been dominant for 4 years...he was dominant in 2001-2002, when SC was played on a much lower level. Yellow was no. 2 during the same period. I would say that today Boxer's game is far better than it was when he was dominant...still not good enough. You cannot be the prodigy of every epoch 
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been in the top 20 in the korean starcraft arena where 39482390842394892034 players try their luck and train only to be able to beat you make me say he is dominant
You guys need to realize been dominant dont absolutly mean winning everything .... Can you imagine how many player try their luck as progamer and yet u see the same guy succeeding year after year after year
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On October 05 2006 11:11 MoltkeWarding wrote:Boxer has not been dominant for 4 years...he was dominant in 2001-2002, when SC was played on a much lower level. Yellow was no. 2 during the same period. I would say that today Boxer's game is far better than it was when he was dominant...still not good enough. You cannot be the prodigy of every epoch
There is smth true in this ... i agree
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I can understand why an old schooler like you would be biased in favor of the old times. You probably think of the old times as the golden age of Starcraft. Maybe even to some extent you put down the players of today so that you can prop yourself up in your mind, and I may not know you well enough to say that, but there are old schoolers who certainly do that.
But here\'s the bottom line: your argument is analogous to saying that Kareem Abdul Jabar was on a higher level of basketball than Michael Jordan, Shaq or Kobe. Of the three players you mention, the only that you can *truly* argue was on a greater level was Boxer. I\'m not even sure that I would put the legendary one and only Grrrr on a \"higher level\" than the gamers of today, who are frankly, just as amazing compared to their time as Grrrr was compared to his time.
The fact is that Boxer, Yellow and H.O.T happened to be in the right place at the right time bring the right skill sets and experiences to the table. Progaming was developing with or with out them. yes, I said it, progaming would still have developed without them. You can\'t have a game become that important a past time in a society (Korea) with that many players and that much competition and not have progaming develop. Those players lead the evolution of the progaming scene because they were the best of their day. And of the three, only Boxer truly stands out in that progaming would not have been the same without him -- his crazy strategies and phenomenal micro won the hearts of the fans, and that did nothing other than spur yet greater support for progaming. Yet even without Boxer, all those tricks would still have been invented at some point, maybe months later, maybe years later. Even without Boxer the game would have lived on and other big names would rise up.
You see this game as burned out and you see it\'s glory days as over, yet progamer salaries continue to rise and new events continue popping up, and new stars are shaping the evolution of Starcraft just as the old stars did, changing the way we look at things. Do you remember the domination of Terran gamers? Do you remember how Protoss stars were brought to their knees, outgrown by Terran and Zerg? Then July held KeSPA #1 for a year and Terran players suddenly needed to adapt to his endless onslought. Then as soon as the Terrans thought that was over, Savior came along and now you have all the Terran progamers in Starcraft searching for a way to cruicify the JesusZerg (and so far failing). And with these changes comes new strategy, new trends, new ideas.
If back in the old days you told someone that fast expo into mass marine/medic/vessel was a highly effective strategy for dealing with Zergs, you would have been laughed off of Battle.net. Now look at how strong SK Terran has become. The game evolved, and it was the newer generation of progamers that you so discredit who caused it to evolve.
Have you seen the new KeSPA top 30 list? 11 Zergs, 10 Protoss and 9 Terrans. Man, think about how that has changed since the old days. Terran was just so dominant!
Old progamers helped a lot to pave the way for progamers, but don\'t underestimate the effect of the new generation of gamers. They are doing a lot more than just copying old and repeated tricks and just as progaming would not have been the same without the old progamers, it would not have been the same without the new ones.
And for the record, IMO H.O.T was a poor choice to consider next to Oov/July/Savior. Sure, H.O.T was a great player, but he failed to adapt to a newer climate of gaming.
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Savior's game sense in all 3 games was really to a point of disbelief. It's obvious why people call him a maphack zerg. In longinus, he saw boxer's factory proxy, which was in a very odd spot. In longinus, he scourged boxer's dropship, which went all the way around, that was really hacklike. There are many other instances of course. I think this is what makes Savior the best zerg right now, which many progamers fundamentally lack. Savior is going to be known for creating the NEED for game sense in the future, and it's going to make SC that much more difficult to master. There was micro, there was macro, there's strategy, and then there's game sense.
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On October 05 2006 02:31 YoUr_KiLLeR wrote:
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are you fuckin serious ahahahahahaahaha. i cant decide if you're trolling right now.
this once again proves that tfeign knows nothing about starcraft and needs numbers and statistics to guide him.
You know, I feel I want to make a comment about this.
It's good to "use numbers and statistics." They are very meaningful....provided you use the correctly. Tfeign is the kind of person who makes people distrust the entire subject of statistics. It's not that the statistics are wrong -- it's that he uses them wrongly and intereprets them wrongly.
Tfeign will use any stastic that supports his theory and ignore any statistic that discredits his theory. If Tfeign were convinced that Pepsi tastest better than Coke and he serveyed 100 people per day and on average they thought Coke was better, then if on one particular day 70 people said Pepsi was better Tfeign would use that as evidence that 70% of people prefer Pepsi, ignoring all the rest of the data staring him in the face.
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All this talk about old schoolers makes me want to see Garimto come back to whoop some ass.
Where does this "S-Class" term come from, anyway? S as in Super or..? Someone said earlier in the thread that there are no S-Class protosses; anyone know what Nal_Ra's win percentages are?
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TBH, I'm not sure exactly what S-class means. When I first heard the term "S-class" it was in reference to a Zerg player who went totally macro mode so I assumed it meant "Sauron-class."
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On October 04 2006 17:54 Mortality wrote:
Nonetheless, I don't think I'm going to continue arguing with you from now on, because I have realized exactly how stupid you are -- stupid enough so that arguing with you is like competiting in the Special Olympics.
Could somebody brighten my day by throwing up a picture that depicts what I said in the last sentence of #5? Thanks in advance.
?
Bit late, but still.
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On October 05 2006 13:36 Mortality wrote:
TBH, I'm not sure exactly what S-class means. When I first heard the term "S-class" it was in reference to a Zerg player who went totally macro mode so I assumed it meant "Sauron-class."
S Class is typically standard for the rank above A. It's sort of the "hyper elite". Generally the ranking would go from S, A, B, C, D, E. S Class isn't a simple rank either, "A"'s are supposed to be a HUGE step above B's. S Class is supposed to be even stronger than A's.
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WCS![[image loading]](http://www.clint.ca/argue/argue.jpg)
