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Honestly , i tought this event was pre-arranged . Like those games of soccer betwen different generations of players. After 2-0 for Savior i was still confident. I tought it\'s a part of the show.
Imagine the surprise after the game 3 . Totaly shocking to see that this was for real. Thinking back i must admit it\'s something normal for new wave of players to beat the old school ones. It\'s
normal and it\'s neccesary because without new stars progaming scene will die with the retreat of the old generation . What it\'s sad it\'s the fact that this had to happend to Slayer "Mister Creativity" Boxer . Without him will have to stick with those boring standard games that everybody plays this days. 
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The matches of SlayerS_`BoxeR` and YellOw were of course more special and entertaining...they were really 5 awesome matches...not only 3 fast ones...thats why he losed fast against Savior...SlayerS_`BoxeR` wanted to give a 100% vs YellOw...he and YellOw are friends since a log time...im nostalgic thinking about the past...when SlayerS_`BoxeR` and YellOw gave an also great final match in the WCG 2002...this Superfight match will be remembered by all SlayerS_`BoxeR` fans as one of the greatest of his career...this is indeed an awesome finale...
PD: I like to tell Savior fans that Savior is indeed a great player...but that doesnt mean that im not going to talk about the special match...SlayerS_`BoxeR` vs YellOw...the real reason of this Superfight!...
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Anyone who puts July up in the same line as Nada or Oov is ridiculous. Neither accomplishments-wise, nor dominance-wise.
July was never ever "invincible". I'm sorry but barely winning series at 3-2 scores vs guys like GF is far far from "invincible". Compare that to Savior who went 7-0 vs oov, 4-0 vs Boxer, etc.
And I don't know what's all this Savior is the best zerg atm is about, but Kespa for months and months has been saying and repeating that Chojja is the #1 zerg player in the world, and Kespa has way more credibility in judging players than anyone in this forum.
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Seriously tfeign, you claiming Chojja was the best players 3 months back was wrong, but now it's just ludicrous.
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How cute. The only place where Chojja is stronger than Savior is ZvZ, and even there, the 9-8 record Savior has OVER Chojja says to me that Savior is not too far behind. Savior is clearly by far and away the greater Terran killer, and he's looking a bit sharper against the toss gamers he faces, but I think TL.net does give Chojja injustice in his ZvP. They look at his battles against Ra and Reach and say "Well, Savior would walk all over them" forgetting that Chojja is on the same team as Reach and Ra. Anything can happen with teammates.
"Months and months"...not really. When did Chojja take the #1 spot. July? He hardly held it for "months and months" like Boxer/NaDa/July/Oov did.
You are totally contradicting yourself. You put down July, but didn't he actually hold a KeSPA #1 title for a year? I'm looking at the rankings right now, and Oov took #1 in July 2004, lost it in April 2005, took it again in March this year and lost it in July, whereas JulyZerg took it in April 2005 and lost it in March 2006, holding it for about the same length of time. Then you act as though KeSPA is infallible in judging Chojja. Pick a story and stick to it.
You know what I believe in more than I believe in the KeSPA rankings? The words of Boxer. If Boxer says progamers all agree that Savior is the top Zerg then Savior is the top Zerg. The rankings aren't infallible because it's limit4ed by the number of games played. You can get unlucky in maps/users you play against and not even qualify for OSL/MSL and be better than a number of people who actually did qualify. You can have a bad day when you play your qualifying games, and it's tough shit, wait until next time. But the system is that way so that tournament organizers aren't working like mad just to keep the system going.
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Chojja is not a bad player. I honestly believe people here undercredit his ZvP. If you take Savior, July, Gorush and Chojja out of the picture, then just by removing those four players ZvP looks a lot more balanced. Seriously, take a look at the damage those guys do to the records of Protoss gamers! It's incredible. Chojja's ZvZ is basically undeniably the best in the world, although Savior and July also look very strong in that matchup. It's Chojja's ZvT that is lacking.
To talk about Chojja's ZvT, I have to dive back into my discussion of rhythym of players. You either have to control the rhythym or break/find holes in your opponent's rhythym. Chojja isn't good enough at controlling the rhythym to stand out as a management Zerg and he's not strong enough at chopping up his opponent's rhythym to stand out as a storm Zerg. He's got the fundamental elements he needs to be a Terran killer, but he lacks definition. That's why Chojja has losing records against most of the top Terran players.
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Well, I do believe Savior is the first Zerg to be on that level of Nada Oov and yes, Boxer. He's the only S-Class Zerg atm. There is no S-Class toss, and there were S Class Terrans. Things change with time though... and even though you say boxer played like a fencer with a prick and poke style, early boxer was never shaken in gameflow. His tank drop killed your gameflow. Anyone remember Jungle Story? lol ~_~. It wasn't even that, Boxer honestly did seem invincible from even early game and his old OSL games were not on the long side. Generally, he killed most people quickly and swiftly. Only when Reach came along did things change in SC.
Yeah, it's similar to July's lurker/ling, but the reign was longer. Why I put July up there was because of a notable style revolution he caused in Z users. It's like what Yellow should have done cept it was done at July's hands, plus the way he beat his opponants were pretty rape. July's all in's are still hard to stop for all those under pro status, and him and Savior don't lose to toss... period. Maybe Boxer did lack the macro to seem as invincible Oov Nada Savior but his game flow is the kind where you are eventually left helpless with him standing on top due to repeated successful attack after attack. It is similar to how Anytime and Casy also control their games. July can very well play macro style too... so...
And I dont think Savior is a more dominating player than Oov because well... Oov was not in his Ultra-Cheater Mode anymore when Savior started killing people. Plus~ Who's the only man with 3 BACK TO BACK TO BACK MSL titles? Yes that terribly boring cheater gorilla. Oh well, I hope to god Oov shows up and trounces Savior now.
... actually.. scratch that... I want Kingdom to take him down in the upcoming next games and I don't think it's as impossible as people make it out to be.
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On October 04 2006 14:36 DeathBlow wrote:Honestly , i tought this event was pre-arranged . Like those games of soccer betwen different generations of players. After 2-0 for Savior i was still confident. I tought it\'s a part of the show. Imagine the surprise after the game 3 . Totaly shocking to see that this was for real. Thinking back i must admit it\'s something normal for new wave of players to beat the old school ones. It\'s normal and it\'s neccesary because without new stars progaming scene will die with the retreat of the old generation . What it\'s sad it\'s the fact that this had to happend to Slayer "Mister Creativity" Boxer . Without him will have to stick with those boring standard games that everybody plays this days.
StarCraft games are never, ever pre-arranged nowadays. There was one match where it was widely believed (and I think this belief was correct), that Nada threw a game to Yellow in order to keep Yellow afloat in the OGN group. Even though nothing was ever proven the mild outrage was enough to scare the players/tournament companies into not fixing their games.
Plus there was the MBC WarCraft 3 map fixing scandal, which definitely crippled that game's popularity in South Korea. Nobody in StarCraft wants that to happen with them.
I guess it's normal for new wave players to beat old school players but as it's already been said, Boxer played sub-bar those games. Even if Savior ended up being the better player Boxer didn't have to embarrass himself like he did.
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On October 04 2006 15:59 tfeign wrote:
Anyone who puts July up in the same line as Nada or Oov is ridiculous. Neither accomplishments-wise, nor dominance-wise.
July was never ever "invincible". I'm sorry but barely winning series at 3-2 scores vs guys like GF is far far from "invincible". Compare that to Savior who went 7-0 vs oov, 4-0 vs Boxer, etc.
And I don't know what's all this Savior is the best zerg atm is about, but Kespa for months and months has been saying and repeating that Chojja is the #1 zerg player in the world, and Kespa has way more credibility in judging players than anyone in this forum.
I agree that July was never invicible the way many people say he was, but your assertion that Chojja is the best player in the world is still bullshit, especially given that you're seriously trying to use KesPA rankings as evidence for your arguement, which is just laughable.
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On October 04 2006 15:59 tfeign wrote:
Anyone who puts July up in the same line as Nada or Oov is ridiculous. Neither accomplishments-wise, nor dominance-wise.
July was never ever "invincible". I'm sorry but barely winning series at 3-2 scores vs guys like GF is far far from "invincible". Compare that to Savior who went 7-0 vs oov, 4-0 vs Boxer, etc.
And I don't know what's all this Savior is the best zerg atm is about, but Kespa for months and months has been saying and repeating that Chojja is the #1 zerg player in the world, and Kespa has way more credibility in judging players than anyone in this forum.
it was bad enough during chojja's hot streak.... but now? are you really serious?
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On October 04 2006 16:49 DTDominion wrote:
[removed quote within quote]
I agree that July was never invicible the way many people say he was, but your assertion that Chojja is the best player in the world is still bullshit, especially given that you're seriously trying to use KesPA rankings as evidence for your arguement, which is just laughable.
So then for what are the KesPA rankings for? :/...
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On October 04 2006 08:36 Mortality wrote:
Re-read what I wrote. I never called Savior the best gamer ever -- I called him the most dominating. I'm speaking entirely in terms of his ability to control the tempo of the game.
Boxer, OOv, and NaDa during their primes would totally work their opponents into the ground through domination of the flow of the game. Any game I've ever seen Boxer lose was because of his terrible macro, not because of any lack of talent at gameflow control.
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On October 04 2006 16:43 SuperJongMan wrote:
Well, I do believe Savior is the first Zerg to be on that level of Nada Oov and yes, Boxer. He's the only S-Class Zerg atm. There is no S-Class toss, and there were S Class Terrans. Things change with time though... and even though you say boxer played like a fencer with a prick and poke style, early boxer was never shaken in gameflow. His tank drop killed your gameflow. Anyone remember Jungle Story? lol ~_~. It wasn't even that, Boxer honestly did seem invincible from even early game and his old OSL games were not on the long side. Generally, he killed most people quickly and swiftly. Only when Reach came along did things change in SC.
Yeah, it's similar to July's lurker/ling, but the reign was longer. Why I put July up there was because of a notable style revolution he caused in Z users. It's like what Yellow should have done cept it was done at July's hands, plus the way he beat his opponants were pretty rape. July's all in's are still hard to stop for all those under pro status, and him and Savior don't lose to toss... period. Maybe Boxer did lack the macro to seem as invincible Oov Nada Savior but his game flow is the kind where you are eventually left helpless with him standing on top due to repeated successful attack after attack. It is similar to how Anytime and Casy also control their games. July can very well play macro style too... so...
And I dont think Savior is a more dominating player than Oov because well... Oov was not in his Ultra-Cheater Mode anymore when Savior started killing people. Plus~ Who's the only man with 3 BACK TO BACK TO BACK MSL titles? Yes that terribly boring cheater gorilla. Oh well, I hope to god Oov shows up and trounces Savior now.
... actually.. scratch that... I want Kingdom to take him down in the upcoming next games and I don't think it's as impossible as people make it out to be.
nada had 3 back to back msl wins didnt he? or was one of them before it officially became msl?
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United States20605 Posts
Why does YellOw have so many antis here?
"He can only go all in", "he is too stupid to tech to hive", "he is clueless"
wtf?
His all time ranking in this game is still what, third? After NaDa and BoxeR? And while everyone is talking about Kespa #1, remember that YellOw held Kespa #2 for about two years. Of course, he could never get number 1, because YellOw is chronic #2.
Low econ attack styles = how he plays, it's why he's called the storm zerg in the first place.
No hive tech? -__-;; He used to get guards a lot. Didn't see any vs BoxeR, though.
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On October 04 2006 16:29 Mortality wrote:
How cute. The only place where Chojja is stronger than Savior is ZvZ, and even there, the 9-8 record Savior has OVER Chojja says to me that Savior is not too far behind. Savior is clearly by far and away the greater Terran killer, and he's looking a bit sharper against the toss gamers he faces, but I think TL.net does give Chojja injustice in his ZvP. They look at his battles against Ra and Reach and say "Well, Savior would walk all over them" forgetting that Chojja is on the same team as Reach and Ra. Anything can happen with teammates.
"Months and months"...not really. When did Chojja take the #1 spot. July? He hardly held it for "months and months" like Boxer/NaDa/July/Oov did.
You are totally contradicting yourself. You put down July, but didn't he actually hold a KeSPA #1 title for a year? I'm looking at the rankings right now, and Oov took #1 in July 2004, lost it in April 2005, took it again in March this year and lost it in July, whereas JulyZerg took it in April 2005 and lost it in March 2006, holding it for about the same length of time. Then you act as though KeSPA is infallible in judging Chojja. Pick a story and stick to it.
You know what I believe in more than I believe in the KeSPA rankings? The words of Boxer. If Boxer says progamers all agree that Savior is the top Zerg then Savior is the top Zerg. The rankings aren't infallible because it's limit4ed by the number of games played. You can get unlucky in maps/users you play against and not even qualify for OSL/MSL and be better than a number of people who actually did qualify. You can have a bad day when you play your qualifying games, and it's tough shit, wait until next time. But the system is that way so that tournament organizers aren't working like mad just to keep the system going.
Boxer's job is to play Starcraft. Kespa's job is to rank players. I'm taking the word from guy whose job is to rank players. No one is completely infallible, but Kespa, the most reputable organization in the world that deals with ranking Starcraft players, is much less fallible than you. I'm not speaking for myself, I'm speaking for Kespa.
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On October 04 2006 13:09 Orome wrote:
We definitely didn't see Boxer in his best shape yesterday, he was probably nervous as hell. What surprised me was that some of the the strategies he'd prepared (in the first four games at least, I couldn't see the rest) were horrible.
I could only be surprised so much. Boxer is known for playing more for his fans than to win. As much as I respect Boxer in many ways I totally disagree with him on this. It's even worse because
[quote]
I seriously do not know what Boxer was thinking. Maybe he was trying to show everyone he could win a macro war, but 14 ccing as Boxer against Savior is suicide. Savior totally manhandled him, it was cruel to watch. Boxer wasn't even near winning any fight that game. [/quote[
Because the spawn distances are so far on Blitz when it comes to ground attacks, Boxer figured that by going 14 CC he could gain the economic advantage necessary to beat Savior.
Really, Boxer was just outplayed this time around. Savior displayed far superior micro and macro, plus his choice of guards was just beast.
I still feel like I'm missing something though.
[quote]Game 3
I couldn't see the first ~5 minutes because of lag, but it looked like Savior scouted Boxer's factory, raped Boxer's m&m and raped him? Then he let him live a little to be nice/cruel?[/quote]
You're basically correct.
The proxy fact was so pointless, even if it wasn't scouted what would it have done?
[quote]Game 1 against Yellow was stupid. Why Boxer still refused to go something normal like 2 rax is beyond me. Yellow reacted well to the goliaths, going mass muta and expanding to the islands, where Boxer had no chance of attacking. Boxer had to re-expand to keep up with Yellow's economy, and Yellow just attacked wherever Boxer's goliaths wasn't. Why Boxer'd go 2 fac on this map...[/quote]
Agreed.
[quote]Boxer would've needed his very best game to win against Savior, but he was far from it yesterday. Savior played immaculate like he usually does. I'm extremely unhappy he lost 0-3, I felt like the win against Yellow didn't count for anything, because what good is it if Boxer can beat his old rival, when he can't keep up with the modern Zergs anymore? (not that I think that's true, but that's the message it sends.)[/QUOTE]
Totally agreed.
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On October 04 2006 11:34 PoP wrote:
Yellow looked less good on basically every single aspect of the game and Boxer wasn't really playing better than vs Savior either, except well, it seems it was enough to beat Yellow. The last game was quite cool though. But overall Boxer played sloppy in pretty much every single of his games and I'm quite sure he wouldn't have lost the first series 3-0 vs Savior had he been in his best shape. Bit of a shame.
As I've said many many times before, though, Boxer's strategies in the games he won against Yellow were infinitely more intelligent that his strategies against Savior. While his play was definitely still sloppy (though again, not as sloppy as against Savior IMO), choosing strategies that weren't doomed from the moment Boxer split his SCVs was a rather important component to his victory.
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On October 04 2006 16:58 IdrA wrote:
[removed quote within quote]
nada had 3 back to back msl wins didnt he? or was one of them before it officially became msl?
Nada had 3 wins but I"m not sure if they were back to back or not.
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On October 04 2006 15:59 tfeign wrote:
Anyone who puts July up in the same line as Nada or Oov is ridiculous. Neither accomplishments-wise, nor dominance-wise.
July was never ever "invincible". I'm sorry but barely winning series at 3-2 scores vs guys like GF is far far from "invincible". Compare that to Savior who went 7-0 vs oov, 4-0 vs Boxer, etc.
Yeah, he wasn't as dominant, but I put it more down to race. Terran is the simcity race - it's about building stuff. Terran pretty much always has the initiative in the matches (even though it's passive sometimes) and have the ability to fight on their own terms.
The builder/defense aspect is what gave those dominant terrans their consistency. If you could always do the same thing, with no fear of sudden or early defeat, then you were free to attack and kill as you pleased and take control of the game later on. This was during a time when OLgrouping mutas weren't a threat and macrotosses weren't flourishing. Being best terran was equal to being best player.
In terms of skill, July was certainly as dominant as those players, but not in terms of records and results.
And I don't know what's all this Savior is the best zerg atm is about, but Kespa for months and months has been saying and repeating that Chojja is the #1 zerg player in the world, and Kespa has way more credibility in judging players than anyone in this forum.
Kespa is based on results, not by judging player ability based on gameplay and skill. Also, this gets skewed since not all players get to play each other, and not all players get to participate. As I said, it takes a bit of luck to qualify, and this also goes for playoff brackets.
Do I think Chojja would have won MSL 2 seasons ago if he had to face oov in a bo5? Very unlikely.
Chojja is one of the top zergs, and I don't disagree with that, but calling him best zerg now or during any other time this year is just plain wrong.
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On October 04 2006 13:23 Luhh wrote:
AM I the ONLY ONE who gets tired of, - "yeah, but OSL is the tournament that REALLY matters!".
Because as you already said, OSL is a higher stress environment. Not doing well in OSL shows a lack of ability to play under significant pressure.
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EPT
