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On October 04 2006 17:06 tfeign wrote:
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Boxer's job is to play Starcraft. Kespa's job is to rank players. I'm taking the word from guy whose job is to rank players. No one is completely infallible, but Kespa, the most reputable organization in the world that deals with ranking Starcraft players, is much less fallible than you. I'm not speaking for myself, I'm speaking for Kespa.
1.) You contradict the importance of KeSPA's rankings in your own post, so don't even pretend to "speak for KeSPA.
2.) I gave a good reason why it's possible that the #2 KeSPA can be better than the #1. Obviously Chojja is no slouch, but the fact that SO FEW games are played against SO MANY different opponents makes it hard to distinguish between two players who made top 3 in 3 consecutive tournaments (Chojja 3rd MSL, 1st MSL then 2nd OSL vs Savior 1st MSL, 2nd MSL, 1st MSL).
3.) KeSPA has other jobs than keeping rankings. In fact, it's not their job at all to rank players -- they just do it anyway. KeSPA serves as an organizational body for e-Sports in Korea, so it has much larger, more important matters to discuss.
4.) KeSPA does the best it can to use results to rank players using the information it has, but that's all it uses. Progamers study their opponents. They know substantially more about the strengths and weaknesses of their opponents than KeSPA does by neccessity, and they pay particular attention to the more powerful players (the S-class players). You're wrong -- Boxer is not paid to play, Boxer is paid to win. He's paid to win his games and help his teammates win theirs. Nobody is stupid enough to pay somebody money just to play.
5.) It's always fun pointing out how stupid you are. I see now you've changed tactics from writing large posts to sound intelligent to writing smaller posts with each sentence designed to sound intelligent so that there is less fuel for me to burn, yet you still leave so much. Nonetheless, I don't think I'm going to continue arguing with you from now on, because I have realized exactly how stupid you are -- stupid enough so that arguing with you is like competiting in the Special Olympics.
Could somebody brighten my day by throwing up a picture that depicts what I said in the last sentence of #5? Thanks in advance.
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On October 04 2006 16:58 IdrA wrote:
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nada had 3 back to back msl wins didnt he? or was one of them before it officially became msl?
The first was technically KPGA, but for all intents and purposes it was the same tournament. Yes, he won three in a row. He competed in four consecutive finals, and six MSL finals in total (counting KPGA since it's the same thing).
SuperJongMan -- I'm still not sure you're getting me. There's a difference between breaking your opponent's rhythym and controlling it. Savior prefers controlling it; Boxer and July prefer breaking it. Of course both Boxer and July are capable of controlling the rhythym quite well, but not like Savior. Oov you can sort of argue, but I still think he wasn't as good at it as Savior.
By and large, controlling the rhythym or tempo of the game is something macro players prefer to do whereas breaking it is something micro players prefer to do, but sometimes it goes the other way.
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Why are you arguing this on the Superfight thread? :/...We should be talking about when IlOveOOv raped Savior and Savior fans said he wanted to lose...now when Savior got raped by IlOveOOv Savior was playing for a tournament...its more possible that SlayerS_`BoxeR` wanted to give a 100% vs YellOw and losed 3 fast games than Savior wanted to...what was it?...Saving strategies for more important match?...Dont you see it?...SlayerS_`BoxeR` vs YellOw was the real Superfight match!...5 awesome matches to be remembered by all SlayerS_`BoxeR fans!...
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I'm positive tfeign is just trying to be annoying here or something, he can't possibly be this stupid.
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breaking the tempo is just another form of controlling it, no?
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On October 04 2006 18:12 _Carlodajin_ wrote:
Why are you arguing this on the Superfight thread? :/...We should be talking about when IlOveOOv raped Savior and Savior fans said he wanted to lose...now when Savior got raped by IlOveOOv Savior was playing for a tournament...its more possible that SlayerS_`BoxeR` wanted to give a 100% vs YellOw and losed 3 fast games than Savior wanted to...what was it?...Saving strategies for more important match?...Dont you see it?...SlayerS_`BoxeR` vs YellOw was the real Superfight match!...5 awesome matches to be remembered by all SlayerS_`BoxeR fans!...
huh?
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tfeign, read this.
It's even worse because of how much of a non-authority KesPA is when it comes to rankings.
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On October 04 2006 18:41 IdrA wrote:
breaking the tempo is just another form of controlling it, no?
No. It's another form of controlling the outcome of the game, yes, but it's a bit different. The difference is both subtle and intangible.
Earlier I was etting flustered that people didn't seem to understand, but reflecting, I think it's something you can't really understand unless you spend time with a fairly intelligent dependent (i.e. a young child or a more intelligent animal). The distinction is in how you approach the situation.
Savior kind of lets you play out your strategy and somehow instead of playing it the way you want to, you are playing it the way he wants to. A player like July will more seek to prevent you from playing out your strategy. It goes beyond merely playing a passive or defensive game because we've seen him get aggressive at times too -- it's that somehow he's in your head, guiding your thoughts. That game vs Terato was a perfect example of his domination. He let Terato do Terato's strategy and he showed Terato what he wanted Terato to see and made him think what he wanted to think and then suddenly it was too late. Game 5 vs Midas in the last MSL was another great example. He somehow knew Midas would cheese and he somehow knew Midas would cancel the barracks and then he spread all over the map knowing that Midas wouldn't do shit to stop it. He guides you, he controls you. He's inside your mind. He doesn't have to force himself onto you and yet you realize before the end that he's the one in control.
I hope that clarifies what I mean. The only other player who I htink had this kind of magical ability to shut you down without even really doing much of anything was NaDa back in his prime. Boxer's magic and even Oov's magic (as good as Oov was at doing this) were very different, especially Boxer's. Boxer would just throw you off with something you had never seen before. Maybe it would be crazy micro, maybe a new strategy or unusual use of a unit (like that time he built a depot so his SCV could escape Garimto's dragoon...just art). Oov was also good at getting in someone's head, especially with regards to sensing cheese, but more like Boxer he blended his passive mind control with Boxer's strategic mentality of having more thought-out preset plans that he would try to force onto his opponent, and he combined that still with his mass macro mode where he would just seem to outgrow his opponent and could afford to throw unit after unit around.
I typed more than I meant to. 
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its still the same thing, forcing the game to follow the path you want. its a different means of achieving it but its still the same thing, one is forcing your opponent to follow want you want, the other is forcing your opponent to not do what he wants to do.
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anyone care to explain why savior is so highly praised?
i leave bw a few months and all of a sudden this guy, who i just found out was once ipxzerg, is suddenly called the most dominant player ever. Last time I heard, July was the most dominant. what makes him much better than july??
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Idra, you are right that it certainly is true that it's just a different way to win the game, but in my opinion it is the more dangerous form of setting the tempo. After writing all this though, I don't feel like talking about why I feel that way. It's just harder to adapt to really.
Savior is so highly praised because he's winning over 70% vs T and P both. The last time a Zerg had such high winning records across the board was...well, never.
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Morality -
Boxer and July's style, Offensive rhythm breaks. Swords
Oov, Savior, Nada, Shields. Macro Oriented impenetrable Defence (Boxer too, but not the same style of defence)
Shield vs Sword. Classic argument, neither side is wrong, I just think you should give swords like Casy Boxer Anytime and July more credit. Also, I don't think Savior's gameflow is as untouchable as Oov and Nada in their primes. They all had that perfect armor aura. In the end, it's a matter of opinion but I do understand what you are saying, I just wanna say Swords are a different and just as effective form of rhythm control. Well, maybe not as effective at the moment, but Anytime and Casy's rise lead me to believe otherwise.
EDIT - Example I thought of, Casy vs Yellow on Peaks, Casy's early rush pretty much gave him the game control all game. Chojja vs Casy, his intitiative the whole series won it for him. Casy vs Anytime on 815, that is still imo, the ultimate sword game in recent times. Simply exploiting lack of a perfect defense to tie up Anytime's ability to do anything through constant effective offensives.
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On October 04 2006 17:54 Mortality wrote:
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1.) You contradict the importance of KeSPA's rankings in your own post, so don't even pretend to "speak for KeSPA.
2.) I gave a good reason why it's possible that the #2 KeSPA can be better than the #1. Obviously Chojja is no slouch, but the fact that SO FEW games are played against SO MANY different opponents makes it hard to distinguish between two players who made top 3 in 3 consecutive tournaments (Chojja 3rd MSL, 1st MSL then 2nd OSL vs Savior 1st MSL, 2nd MSL, 1st MSL).
3.) KeSPA has other jobs than keeping rankings. In fact, it's not their job at all to rank players -- they just do it anyway. KeSPA serves as an organizational body for e-Sports in Korea, so it has much larger, more important matters to discuss.
4.) KeSPA does the best it can to use results to rank players using the information it has, but that's all it uses. Progamers study their opponents. They know substantially more about the strengths and weaknesses of their opponents than KeSPA does by neccessity, and they pay particular attention to the more powerful players (the S-class players). You're wrong -- Boxer is not paid to play, Boxer is paid to win. He's paid to win his games and help his teammates win theirs. Nobody is stupid enough to pay somebody money just to play.
5.) It's always fun pointing out how stupid you are. I see now you've changed tactics from writing large posts to sound intelligent to writing smaller posts with each sentence designed to sound intelligent so that there is less fuel for me to burn, yet you still leave so much. Nonetheless, I don't think I'm going to continue arguing with you from now on, because I have realized exactly how stupid you are -- stupid enough so that arguing with you is like competiting in the Special Olympics.
Could somebody brighten my day by throwing up a picture that depicts what I said in the last sentence of #5? Thanks in advance.
1) No
2) And there are just as many reasons why #1 is #1
3) Doesn't change the fact that Kespa is the world's #1, most credible&reputable source for ranking players in the history of e-sport
4) Kespa uses results in mechanical formulas to determine ranking without bias. People are biased based on many factors.
Feel free to believe who you think is #1. But I hold my own view, and the most reputable e-sport-ranking organization agrees with me, that Chojja is currently the world's #1 player.
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well... boxer got outclassed, outplayed and outrunned by Savior.
Savior toyed with boxer. He basically used every units (except queens and devourers wich doesnt count as units) in every game. In game 3 he was so tired at the end that he went ''all in'' in a wonderfull green minimap line of death. This is the 1st time I see Boxer getting this owned 3 times in a row.
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On October 04 2006 23:48 Bladox wrote:
well... boxer got outclassed, outplayed and outrunned by Savior.
Savior toyed with boxer. He basically used every units (except queens and devourers wich doesnt count as units) in every game. In game 3 he was so tired at the end that he went ''all in'' in a wonderfull green minimap line of death. This is the 1st time I see Boxer getting this owned 3 times in a row.
Post #666... blasphemy. Words of the Devil. Die.
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After reading what DTDominion said about Game 5 Yellow vs Boxer I have to wonder if we were even seeing the same thing...
Yellow tried to counter what he thought was Boxer teching, and Boxer possibly got the best opening he could have vs it with his double CC 4 Rax build... The only thing stopping him from getting completely rolled was him killing the first marine group and eliminating a Rax and 2 supply depots... There was nothing epic about the game or the finale of it, T smelled a drop when he probably scanned and saw no hive, Z simply was behind from step 1. It COULD have been a game to remember if Yellow hadnt missed the guerilla M&M group that Boxer sent out and ended up killing his expansion with. But alas, my dream of seeing yellow triumph here was unfulfilled.
Overall for these I would say... Savior rolled Boxer up like nothing, for someone who plays low(ish) apm and all strategy he managed to outwit Boxer in every game and imo he let game 3 go on so he could toy with the emperor a little and at least make a game of it for the audience.
Yellow vs Boxer was set up on some gay maps. Although yellow won game 1, by all means his odds on the first 2 maps were incredibly small to win. Game 2 was my favorite because it was nice to see a low econ game and yellow REALLY hustled and imo nearly had game advantage at a few points. Game 4 was well played too and I think its the first time ive seen a Z win such a game upon losing so much to a bunker.
And last I have to say that game 1 was pure goof troop shit, man yellow used HOT486 strat from WAY back, that was a sight to see. And I think Boxer maybe took a little bit too much advice from iloveoov and expected a 1hat opening.
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On October 04 2006 21:25 gg_hertzz wrote:
anyone care to explain why savior is so highly praised?
i leave bw a few months and all of a sudden this guy, who i just found out was once ipxzerg, is suddenly called the most dominant player ever. Last time I heard, July was the most dominant. what makes him much better than july??
2 things: He actually wins every match up with a high % particularly ZvT which I would have no problem saying he is the top ZvT player right now(And some would say moreso ZvP, but I think thats less distinguishable because every pro zerg can beat any P on the right day) AND currently the league he is dominating(MSL) has some maps that just suit his play perfectly. He is well on his way to another MSL final imo.
His play most reminds me of oov actually. Just very standard and solid play with some traits that currently set him well apart of the other Zergs the same way oovs play did when he was dominating. Its like he is comfortable pacing himself as long as the needs to go and I think he chooses really good strategies too.
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On October 04 2006 22:17 tfeign wrote:
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1) No
2) And there are just as many reasons why #1 is #1
3) Doesn't change the fact that Kespa is the world's #1, most credible&reputable source for ranking players in the history of e-sport
4) Kespa uses results in mechanical formulas to determine ranking without bias. People are biased based on many factors.
Feel free to believe who you think is #1. But I hold my own view, and the most reputable e-sport-ranking organization agrees with me, that Chojja is currently the world's #1 player.
So when the new rankings come out that include this MSL, you'll admit savior > chojja?
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On October 04 2006 22:17 tfeign wrote:
Feel free to believe who you think is #1. But I hold my own view, and the most reputable e-sport-ranking organization agrees with me, that Chojja is currently the world's #1 player.
are you fuckin serious ahahahahahaahaha. i cant decide if you're trolling right now.
this once again proves that tfeign knows nothing about starcraft and needs numbers and statistics to guide him.
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On October 04 2006 15:59 tfeign wrote:
July was never ever "invincible". I'm sorry but barely winning series at 3-2 scores vs guys like GF is far far from "invincible". Compare that to Savior who went 7-0 vs oov, 4-0 vs Boxer, etc.
And I don't know what's all this Savior is the best zerg atm is about, but Kespa for months and months has been saying and repeating that Chojja is the #1 zerg player in the world, and Kespa has way more credibility in judging players than anyone in this forum.
if you forgot, oov beat kingdom 3-2 in his 3rd MSL win, he beat reach 3-2 in ever semis, he beat boxer 3-2 in the finals.
there is no shame in july winning 3-2 vs a terran as good at tvz as goodfriend is in a series that used neo forte twice.
july made 4 OSL finals in 2 years time. thats as invincible as anyone will get these days in progaming.
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WCS
