EPTFor quick reference:
Savior > Boxer Araknoid
Savior > Boxer Blitz
Savior > Boxer Longinus
Yellow > Boxer Jungle Story
Boxer > Yellow Ragranok
Boxer > Yellow Arcadia 2
Yellow > Boxer Peaks
Boxer > Yellow Longinus
Superfight Game Discussion
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DTDominion
United States2148 Posts
For quick reference: Savior > Boxer Araknoid Savior > Boxer Blitz Savior > Boxer Longinus Yellow > Boxer Jungle Story Boxer > Yellow Ragranok Boxer > Yellow Arcadia 2 Yellow > Boxer Peaks Boxer > Yellow Longinus | ||
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DTDominion
United States2148 Posts
Boxer's initial strategy was to allow Savior, the best game control Zerg in the world, to control the dynamic of the game, no way Boxer was going to win this. Boxer vs. Savior on Blitz Even though I didn't like Boxer's strategy I'm still surprised at how Savior just totally manhandled him. I guess Boxer's micro and macro were just weaker. EDIT: Boxer's micro this game was terrible though :/ Boxer vs. Savior on Longinus I'm not sure whether Boxer having his factory scouted was luck by Savior or Savior scouting logically and intelligently. Even at that point, Boxer still needlessly lost his first M&M group which put him hopelessly behind. Which sucked, because Boxer was intensely microing and macroing the entire game after that minor fiasco. Still, Boxer's early game play was terrible. Overall comments Boxer basically ceded control of the game flow to Savior strategically every game. The most intelligent strategy I've seen against Savior is to go 8 rax or to go 1/2 rax fast CC, which Boxer didn't do any of the games. In his post game interview Boxer said that attempting a Bunker rush was necessary against zergs of Savior's level. So why not!?!?!? If Boxer had put his all into these games and still lost I wouldn't really care, because Savior is simply a best and you can only do so much, but Boxer didn't seem to be trying at all.  | ||
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DTDominion
United States2148 Posts
I acctually liked Boxer's strategy a lot in one sense, because it was a logically constructed defend/expand game. But the path finding on Jungle Story is abysmal to begin with, and on top of the Goliath pathfinding it eventually became impossible for Boxer to react to Yellow's mutas. I'm surprised the mass muta counter never came up in practice. Boxer vs. Yellow at Ragronok This game was unbelievably painful to watch. Neither player decided it was necessary to macro, which did lead to a very old school style confrontation, but this was still terrible play by both players for the most part. Boxer's micro was beast this game though. Boxer vs. Yellow at Arcadia 2 Yellow's strategy was unbelievably terrible. Going straight Lurker/ling against the best M&M user alive was disaster in the making, and Boxer made sure not to pass up on the opportunity, killing one of Yellow's expansions and generally causing havoc during the early game with his M&M troops roaming aroiund the map. This was Boxer's best game strategically too. His simple 8 rax into fast expansion gave him the flexibility necessary to keep up with Yellow and eventually achieve victory. Yellow's micro and overall troop management just wasn't up to par. This wasn't an amazing game by either Boxer or Yellow, but at least Boxer finally, after five fucking matches, played a game which could be construed as him playing well. His proxy rax against Yellow's expansion was pimp by the way. Boxer vs. Yellow at Peaks I remember seeing Casy vs. Chojja on this map and thinking about Casy's play "dude, this is totally how Boxer would play this map, I wanna see Boxer TvZ on Peaks!" Unfortunately Boxer's play was dissapointing After a killer Bunker rush opening Boxer chose to go for some useless proxy buildings which set his defense too far behind to resist Yellow's zergling swarms. Boxer turtled against the inevitable muta onslaught but it wasn't enough and Yellow crushed him. This was probably Yellow's best game of the series, incredible game management and micro, with solid macro to boot.Boxer vs. Yellow at Longinus And thus it came down to one last epic final battle for the championship. For the most part it didn't dissapoint. Even though Boxer's early attack was a definite wtf move (though maybe he had no reason to believe Yellow had 8 or so Hydras in reserve), the rest of the game was definitely a titanic struggle worthy of being called superfight. After Boxer's awesome hold at his entrance, both players struggled for map control, with Boxer being able to move out and almost attacking Yellow's main, though he backed off at the last moment. The critical moment of the game was when Yellow dropped Boxer's base from the northern end. Boxer, using the true Boxer's like intuition which endeared us toward his play in the first place, effortlessly blocked Yellow's attempt and then set up his defenses in a manner that would continue to deny Yellow's drops. Boxer then moved in for the final blow, killing Yellow's expansion while moving in on his main for the kill. In an epic seige worthy of comparison to Lord of the Rings, Boxer slowly but surely moved in on Yellow's base, keeping a multi-screen wide arc that slowly but surely anihilated Yellow's troops, forcing a GG. This was definitely Boxer's best game of the night, even with the mistake early he convincingly came back to crush Yellow. Overall thoughts Yellow didn't really impress or dissapoint. Good player with definite knowledge of the game, but doesn't have what it takes to beat Boxer at full strength. I think after the Jungle story game Boxer's outlook on this series must have drastically changed, switching to a very standard startegic paradigm in games 2,3, and 5. But ultimately I'd rather see Boxer win by just playing fucking awesome StarCraft than losing by doing something crazy. Definitely check out game 2 if you like to see very old school flavored SC. Game 3 for Boxer's most intelligent play of the night, game 4 if you're a Yellow fan (Yellow did pretty much everything righ this game), and game 5 for Boxer being Boxer. | ||
jkillashark
United States5262 Posts
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[angst]chraej
1445 Posts
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Last Romantic
United States20605 Posts
Ragnarok game was rather painful to watch, with both players playing very sub-par. Third game... yellow's strategy choice was not very good, I think. Fourth game was my favorite game of the series, very intense micro game from both players, though BoxeR's strategy choice after the first few minutes was a bit circumspect. Last game was sufficiently epic. | ||
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Vin{MBL}
5184 Posts
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hasuprotoss
United States4290 Posts
On October 03 2006 18:09 vinsc wrote: gg's boxer.... and yes i want the vods T.T I'm dl'ing them at about 250 kB/s right now, will up when I can  | ||
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DTDominion
United States2148 Posts
The FPVODs would be sex. | ||
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Drowsy
United States4871 Posts
On October 03 2006 18:17 hasuprotoss wrote: [removed quote within quote] I'm dl'ing them at about 250 kB/s right now, will up when I can <3 hasuprotoss. | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17673 Posts
Savior's choice of guards was really good. | ||
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Magician
Korea (South)13 Posts
On October 03 2006 18:17 hasuprotoss wrote: [removed quote within quote] I'm dl'ing them at about 250 kB/s right now, will up when I can <3 <3 <3 <3 | ||
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decafchicken
United States19652 Posts
On October 03 2006 18:17 hasuprotoss wrote: [removed quote within quote] I'm dl'ing them at about 250 kB/s right now, will up when I can <3 | ||
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mrdx
Vietnam1555 Posts
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Raidern
Brazil3772 Posts
On October 03 2006 20:31 mrdx wrote: Anyone else thinks that Savior is way overrated and just 3-0ed Boxer 'cos the Emperor cared about playing against Yellow much more than against him thus didn't prepare well at all? No. | ||
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IdrA
United States11540 Posts
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himurakenshin
Canada1845 Posts
On October 03 2006 20:31 mrdx wrote: Anyone else thinks that Savior is way overrated and just 3-0ed Boxer 'cos the Emperor cared about playing against Yellow much more than against him thus didn't prepare well at all? I wish so, however boxer did get it handed to him. He definitely wasn't playing at his best vs ipx who was clearly playing the best he has ever, so it doesn't necessarily mean on another occasion, savior would of destroyed boxer like he did. I personally think that boxer could of given a better fight and won vs savior, he just wasn't playing the way which has brought him to this point, he was playing really poorly. I really wish there was a rematch. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
In my mind, nobody has been this dominating over his opponents since NaDa's reign. In fact, Savior is quite possibly the most dominating player in the history of Starcraft. Boxer never was the kind of player who adjusted the tempo to his will but rather he was the kind of player who would find holes in his opponent's tempo and exploit them. July was similar. Even Oov, as good as he was about setting the tempo to his taste, often relied on the fact that he would consistently overpower his opponent and in every confrontation, Oov's army would grow in relative size to his opponent's. In some cases, it would even appear as if his army grew in absolute size. No, the only player who ever compared with Savior in terms of setting the tempo of the game and forcing his opponent to play his game was NaDa from his prime. That's what I loved so much in NaDa and what I am now loving so much in Savior -- it's perfection. I would also like to add some thoughts with respect to IEF. Some people watching those games between Savior and Oov thoght that Savior threw them. Well, the game 12/3 LT was most certainly doomed from the start since 12/3 ZvT against a monster like Oov is about as tough as it gets. But in game 2, we saw a different side to Savior where he wasn't playing as his usual macro-oriented self. In his games vs Boxer, Savior was being extremely prudent about searching for proxies and cheese. I think that Savior had it in his mind that Boxer would try to force him into a low econ game so Savior decided to practice his low econ game. Just a hunch, and maybe it's totally wrong. Still, Savior played uncharateristically. | ||
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Leath
Canada1724 Posts
On October 03 2006 20:31 mrdx wrote: Anyone else thinks that Savior is way overrated and just 3-0ed Boxer 'cos the Emperor cared about playing against Yellow much more than against him thus didn't prepare well at all? No, and I believe my opnion to be unbiased, since Savior doesnt appeal to me in any level. But I will give him that he is definetly the best Zerg player right, now. Savior's ZvT is just frightning! He has beaten down so many good terrans like Oov, Nada, Midas and, now, Boxer. I know Boxer has been around forever but he is not the best terran anymore. Boxer may be the best in his own style, for sure, however it doesnt make the cut against those newer top guys. I need to see the games before I comment | ||
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Peanuts.
United States378 Posts
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thedeadhaji
38563 Posts
On October 03 2006 18:17 hasuprotoss wrote: [removed quote within quote] I'm dl'ing them at about 250 kB/s right now, will up when I can My roomate contacted the website (b/c "apparently" he already had an account there but didnt remember the pass) but they still havent emailed him his new pass after 1 week | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17673 Posts
On October 03 2006 20:47 Mortality wrote: LOL...Savior man handled Boxer. And no, Boxer wasn't "saving" anything for Yellow. If you read his interview, it was clear that he had prepared strategies to fight Savior. The problem is that Savior's game sense is just a step above the rest. Watch those games carefully. Savior had his eyes out for anything unusual and then he would force Boxer into a position where Boxer was playing Savior's game. In my mind, nobody has been this dominating over his opponents since NaDa's reign. In fact, Savior is quite possibly the most dominating player in the history of Starcraft. Boxer never was the kind of player who adjusted the tempo to his will but rather he was the kind of player who would find holes in his opponent's tempo and exploit them. July was similar. Even Oov, as good as he was about setting the tempo to his taste, often relied on the fact that he would consistently overpower his opponent and in every confrontation, Oov's army would grow in relative size to his opponent's. In some cases, it would even appear as if his army grew in absolute size. No, the only player who ever compared with Savior in terms of setting the tempo of the game and forcing his opponent to play his game was NaDa from his prime. That's what I loved so much in NaDa and what I am now loving so much in Savior -- it's perfection. I would also like to add some thoughts with respect to IEF. Some people watching those games between Savior and Oov thoght that Savior threw them. Well, the game 12/3 LT was most certainly doomed from the start since 12/3 ZvT against a monster like Oov is about as tough as it gets. But in game 2, we saw a different side to Savior where he wasn't playing as his usual macro-oriented self. In his games vs Boxer, Savior was being extremely prudent about searching for proxies and cheese. I think that Savior had it in his mind that Boxer would try to force him into a low econ game so Savior decided to practice his low econ game. Just a hunch, and maybe it's totally wrong. Still, Savior played uncharateristically. I agree. In that game i think Boxer was actually trying hard. The micro mistakes is probably Boxer was shaken up. Every game he picked 2 fact 1 port and Savior took advantage and went guards. Everytime Boxer moved out he got flanked by Savior's perfect position from guards, lurks and than caught all the tanks with lings. During the third game after the proxy fact got scouted i knew it was over. If you fall behind against Savior you cannot comeback. Your_killer said if he was savior and scouted the proxy fact he would have powered drones but no he knew boxer was going for a fast tank push and made lings +speed and raped boxer's early mrine medic. And his muta control was flawless keeping boxer in his base. Boxer probably was trying so hard and was nervous. Who wouldn't be everything boxer did was countered like Savior had maphack. His style is like Gorush's. Like its a very unique reacting style. Savior is like the Zerg of Nada. One thing thought it was weird during the arcadia game against yellow Boxer shot yellow's stop lurkers without scanning. Boxer vs. Yellow was somewhat disappointing. | ||
Plexa
Aotearoa38208 Posts
On November 09 2005 11:16 expostfacto wrote: who is his favorite player to watch? Boxer. He's the most fun, because he's not perfect. He's flawed, but then when he makes up for those flaws it's fun to watch. -IntoTheRain Savior's perfectness doesnt always mean the most exciting play~ | ||
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mrdx
Vietnam1555 Posts
It's like a stain to have such a bitter loss before leaving, 'cos he could not have a chance to pay back. Or maybe he could, in 2009. We can hope, because it's BOXER. Revenge is a dish that better served cold. -_-; | ||
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Pikachu [YsN]:Jooni
United States4 Posts
On October 03 2006 21:55 Plexa wrote: sometimes the greatest players are those who make mistakes [removed quote within quote]t. He's flawed, but then when he makes up for those flaws it's fun to watch. -IntoTheRain Savior's perfectness doesnt always mean the most exciting play~[/QUOTE] | ||
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MuShu
United States3223 Posts
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alffla
Hong Kong20296 Posts
man i really want those vods now need direct upload link i cant bt cuz im on uni netwrok!!! someone upload and PM me the links.. ㅠ_ㅠ | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11566 Posts
Yes Savior is the best zerg atm, but July's style was considered invincible for awhile and it wasn't long before gaps appeared. In Midas vs Savior, you can finally see where Savior is evenly matched with his opponent. He is just finally a zerg on the same level as Midas and those 70% winners, the S-Classes. Just because he crushed Boxer, people are like.. most dominating EVER... lol You guys obviously don't remember the Terran Terror that was ILoveOov. Still, Savior IS disgusting but reigns of terror from a player don't come like they used to. Everyone is too sick to let that happen nowadays. But there are still players who can stand toe-to-toe with him and not be an underdog. One thing I do wish I had gotten to see one last time was Boxer's dropships... T.T | ||
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alffla
Hong Kong20296 Posts
On October 04 2006 01:05 SuperJongMan wrote: lol guys shut up and watch Midas vs Savior last MSL again. You guys are ridiculous. Yes Savior is the best zerg atm, but July's style was considered invincible for awhile and it wasn't long before gaps appeared. In Midas vs Savior, you can finally see where Savior is evenly matched with his opponent. He is just finally a zerg on the same level as Midas and those 70% winners, the S-Classes. Just because he crushed Boxer, people are like.. most dominating EVER... lol You guys obviously don't remember the Terran Terror that was ILoveOov. Still, Savior IS disgusting but reigns of terror from a player don't come like they used to. Everyone is too sick to let that happen nowadays. But there are still players who can stand toe-to-toe with him and not be an underdog. One thing I do wish I had gotten to see one last time was Boxer's dropships... T.T hmm yeah i guess u have a point there.. but the terran terror that was oov has got owned by jesus zerg countless times KEKEKE lolol.. haha o well too bad all of boxer's dropships got scourged.. | ||
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siro)
Australia848 Posts
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L!MP
Australia2067 Posts
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rabies
45 Posts
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DTDominion
United States2148 Posts
As someone else said, watch the Midas vs. Savior games. Midas played very solid strategically and was able to keep up with Savior because Midas himself left no holes in his strategy. The key to beating Savior's style is to early expand but not in a way where it lays out your game plan from the very beginning. Boxer's strategy against Yellow on Arcadia would have been perfect against Savior on Longinus. It basically allows you to early pressure and/or get an extremely early expansion that doesn't constrict your game plan. If Boxer had strategies of that nature prepared for Blitz and Araknoid he definitely wouldn't have been so behind from the get go. Savior is not unbeatable. I find it interesting that Boxer never looked at Canata and Midas's successes against Savior and thought to himself "wow, these guys definitely know what's up against this guy, maybe I should adopt their technique." | ||
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WhizKid77
China682 Posts
On October 04 2006 00:28 alffla wrote: yeah savior is godzerg. lol :| man i really want those vods now need direct upload link i cant bt cuz im on uni netwrok!!! someone upload and PM me the links.. ㅠ_ㅠ the superfight vids for reference: http://www.crunchyroll.com/search?q=superfight | ||
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MaGic~PhiL
Germany7044 Posts
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pyrogenetix
China5090 Posts
On October 04 2006 01:33 alffla wrote: [removed quote within quote] hmm yeah i guess u have a point there.. but the terran terror that was oov has got owned by jesus zerg countless times KEKEKE lolol.. haha o well too bad all of boxer's dropships got scourged.. ill tell u why alf, zerg is rigged. (ignore this, inside joke between me and alf) | ||
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Endurance
United States119 Posts
2) Everyone makse a big deal about him and calls him "the best player ever." 3) Everyone makes a new thread at every Starcraft website asking for replays and praising him. 4) Everyone compares him to BoxeR & now JulyZerg. 5) He gets owned and knocked down 9-12 months down the road by another guy who takes us back to #1. This is progaming. | ||
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gulii
Sweden2786 Posts
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KissBlade
United States3409 Posts
Keep in mind, Boxer is a very audience player. He was trying to give the best show possible by aiming for a 2 game deficit comeback IMO. | ||
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_Carlodajin_
Peru88 Posts
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Hot_Bid
Braavos36163 Posts
On October 04 2006 07:55 _Carlodajin_ wrote: SlayerS_`BoxeR` raped Savior!...Now STFU defending him!...I havent seen the match yet...but i know the result already...IlOveOOv raped Savior so SlayerS_`BoxeR` will double rape Savior...i already know that!...Savior is a good player but someone defending him with nonsense its just too irritating! :D...Now let me see that match in Crunchyroll!... ![[image loading]](http://img246.imageshack.us/img246/156/carlosdjinnma7.jpg) | ||
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sTrAtO
Mexico1084 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
The title of best ever is more of a toss up between Boxer and NaDa. NaDa's career seems to me slightly more accomplished, but Boxer's career was marked by development of the game that was ahead of its time. Certainly it goes without saying that Boxer was the most influential gamer in the history of Starcraft. Nobody is unbeatable, not even in their best. Was Boxer not at his best during the SKY 2001 finals? Yet Garimto won, and we all remember that game 5. Even by today's standards Garimto did an obscenely good job breaking down one of the best set-up fast pushes I have ever seen. And what about NaDa? During his reign he was the MSL king, not much unlike Savior, but he only put up one OSL title until IOPS, by which point he was already past his prime. July? Never had a good record against NaDa. Oov? In the begining he had poroblems against July; later he had problems against Savior. And come on Superjongman, I would think a forum regular here would already know that I've been praising Savior for this whole past year. When Tfeign posted all that shit about Chojja having the best ZvT, who was the person who said Savior's ZvT is better? Me. | ||
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alffla
Hong Kong20296 Posts
On October 04 2006 08:22 Hot_Bid wrote: [removed quote within quote] ROFL OMGGGGGG Ahahahahahahahahah | ||
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DeathBlow
Romania117 Posts
On October 04 2006 08:22 Hot_Bid wrote: [removed quote within quote] This definitely must be added in a deck | ||
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DTDominion
United States2148 Posts
On October 04 2006 08:36 Mortality wrote: Nobody is unbeatable, not even in their best. Was Boxer not at his best during the SKY 2001 finals? Yet Garimto won, and we all remember that game 5. Even by today's standards Garimto did an obscenely good job breaking down one of the best set-up fast pushes I have ever seen. Dude what? I saw this game. Boxer had two factories that he wasn't using half the time while GARIMTO was continuously making units from like 4 or 5 Gateways. How couldn't he win? In fairness, GARIMTO's win in game 1 is probably still one of the greatest performances by a Protoss ever. | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11566 Posts
I know Savior is #1 Z, but he is not more dominating right now than Boxer was, Nada was, Oov was, July was. There is finally a non-fuckn terran who can be on a dominating level as those guys. I didn't even mention Chojja vs Savior, I don't think I even have to bother? Savior is on that level with July and I don't think Savior is more dominating than those 4 were. Yeah, July in his prime was also truly truly terrifying... I didn't wanna admit it even, watching Gillette was like watching Ra vs Savior. | ||
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PoP
France15082 Posts
As for yesterday's games, as I said in the live report thread I think it was a combination of Savior playing awesomely well and Boxer playing really really average, leading to a real, logical carnage. Games 2 and 3 were absolutely masterful from Savior who played his own style with perfection: harrassing constantly with drops/mutas while powering expos/drones like a whore, and then rolling over his opponent with twice as much income. This is a risky kind of play but since the guy also has almost perfect micro/timing/decisions/scouting (esp. scouting as he's one of the only Z that keeps scouting everywhere with lings to spot proxies and expos), he basically makes it look extremely easy... even kind of imbalanced. Yellow looked less good on basically every single aspect of the game and Boxer wasn't really playing better than vs Savior either, except well, it seems it was enough to beat Yellow. The last game was quite cool though. But overall Boxer played sloppy in pretty much every single of his games and I'm quite sure he wouldn't have lost the first series 3-0 vs Savior had he been in his best shape. Bit of a shame. | ||
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KorvspaD
Sweden468 Posts
On October 04 2006 08:22 Hot_Bid wrote: [removed quote within quote] hehe, I hope you'll make one of these everytime he posts, good shit | ||
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DTDominion
United States2148 Posts
On October 04 2006 11:34 PoP wrote: Yellow looked less good on basically every single aspect of the game and Boxer wasn't really playing better than vs Savior either, except well, it seems it was enough to beat Yellow. The last game was quite cool though. But overall Boxer played sloppy in pretty much every single of his games and I'm quite sure he wouldn't have lost the first series 3-0 vs Savior had he been in his best shape. Bit of a shame. Boxer definitely played better in his games vs. Yellow strategically speaking. The games he lost vs. Yellow were lost because he tried strategies that were doomed to faliure. In games 2,3, and 5 Boxer played a straight up TvZ game and won because even when he isn't at his best he's still better than Yellow at StarCraft in every concievable way. If he had been in his best shape he could have taken Savior 3-2 and crushed Yellow 3-0. The first series we saw Boxer playing terrible strategies with sub-par micro and macro backing them (he microed and macroed well game 3 but it was too late by then). Vs. Yellow we saw conclusively than even when only sporadically playing good, Boxer is still better than Yellow at StarCraft in every way that you can imagine. | ||
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tKd_
United States2916 Posts
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Orome
Switzerland9064 Posts
Game 1 I liked his strategy to expand very early, then defend with turrets/valks, take the map control with valks and (probably) start dropping. I think his downfall this game was that he was a little overaggressive with his valkyries early on. Savior's scourging was absolutely flawless, and it allowed him to keep the valkyrie numbers down. Because of that he could harass with his Mutas, keep Boxer in his base, while expoing everywhere. Had Boxer managed to build up a large number of Valkyries, Savior's position would've been very dangerous, he wouldn't have been able to expo easily, because of fear of drops, and Boxer would've had total map control. Game 2 I seriously do not know what Boxer was thinking. Maybe he was trying to show everyone he could win a macro war, but 14 ccing as Boxer against Savior is suicide. Savior totally manhandled him, it was cruel to watch. Boxer wasn't even near winning any fight that game. Game 3 I couldn't see the first ~5 minutes because of lag, but it looked like Savior scouted Boxer's factory, raped Boxer's m&m and raped him? Then he let him live a little to be nice/cruel? Game 1 against Yellow was stupid. Why Boxer still refused to go something normal like 2 rax is beyond me. Yellow reacted well to the goliaths, going mass muta and expanding to the islands, where Boxer had no chance of attacking. Boxer had to re-expand to keep up with Yellow's economy, and Yellow just attacked wherever Boxer's goliaths wasn't. Why Boxer'd go 2 fac on this map... The rest of the games I couldn't see because my internet was suddenly extremely slow... Boxer would've needed his very best game to win against Savior, but he was far from it yesterday. Savior played immaculate like he usually does. I'm extremely unhappy he lost 0-3, I felt like the win against Yellow didn't count for anything, because what good is it if Boxer can beat his old rival, when he can't keep up with the modern Zergs anymore? (not that I think that's true, but that's the message it sends.) | ||
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Orome
Switzerland9064 Posts
Game 1 I liked his strategy to expand very early, then defend with turrets/valks, take the map control with valks and (probably) start dropping. I think his downfall this game was that he was a little overaggressive with his valkyries early on. Savior's scourging was absolutely flawless, and it allowed him to keep the valkyrie numbers down. Because of that he could harass with his Mutas, keep Boxer in his base, while expoing everywhere. Had Boxer managed to build up a large number of Valkyries, Savior's position would've been very dangerous, he wouldn't have been able to expo easily, because of fear of drops, and Boxer would've had total map control. Game 2 I seriously do not know what Boxer was thinking. Maybe he was trying to show everyone he could win a macro war, but 14 ccing as Boxer against Savior is suicide. Savior totally manhandled him, it was cruel to watch. Boxer wasn't even near winning any fight that game. Game 3 I couldn't see the first ~5 minutes because of lag, but it looked like Savior scouted Boxer's factory, raped Boxer's m&m and raped him? Then he let him live a little to be nice/cruel? Game 1 against Yellow was stupid. Why Boxer still refused to go something normal like 2 rax is beyond me. Yellow reacted well to the goliaths, going mass muta and expanding to the islands, where Boxer had no chance of attacking. Boxer had to re-expand to keep up with Yellow's economy, and Yellow just attacked wherever Boxer's goliaths wasn't. Why Boxer'd go 2 fac on this map... The rest of the games I couldn't see because my internet was suddenly extremely slow... Boxer would've needed his very best game to win against Savior, but he was far from it yesterday. Savior played immaculate like he usually does. I'm extremely unhappy he lost 0-3, I felt like the win against Yellow didn't count for anything, because what good is it if Boxer can beat his old rival, when he can't keep up with the modern Zergs anymore? (not that I think that's true, but that's the message it sends.) | ||
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IdrA
United States11540 Posts
On October 04 2006 01:05 SuperJongMan wrote: lol guys shut up and watch Midas vs Savior last MSL again. You guys are ridiculous. Yes Savior is the best zerg atm, but July's style was considered invincible for awhile and it wasn't long before gaps appeared. In Midas vs Savior, you can finally see where Savior is evenly matched with his opponent. He is just finally a zerg on the same level as Midas and those 70% winners, the S-Classes. Just because he crushed Boxer, people are like.. most dominating EVER... lol You guys obviously don't remember the Terran Terror that was ILoveOov. Still, Savior IS disgusting but reigns of terror from a player don't come like they used to. Everyone is too sick to let that happen nowadays. But there are still players who can stand toe-to-toe with him and not be an underdog. One thing I do wish I had gotten to see one last time was Boxer's dropships... T.T thats because july had a very specific style, his extreme lurk ling aggressiveness was very strong early game, with his micro. especially vs all the fast expo terrans. but once you know something like that could be coming and can prepare for it it isnt nearly as effective. savior, on the other hand, doesnt rely on anything like that. hes just really really good in all aspects. | ||
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tKd_
United States2916 Posts
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Luhh
Sweden2974 Posts
It sounds just like some geeky kid sore loser saying "Do it on LAN!" after losing to a better player. - They play the same players on similar maps in similar conditions and they all do their damndest to win! The way qualifying rounds are set up is a bit of hit and miss and thus luck dependant. 2 wins and 1 loss maximum, plus your next opponent will depend on the first game, also all maps aren't equally good for all races. However, once you're qualified, you can prove your worth, but it's very hard to qualify and I must say savior has indeed proved his worth this last year. He stands out clearly as the best BW player today imo with 2 titles and 1 finals, plus lots of proleague victories. This is only for records though. The reason why I dissed the Chojja bandwagon and Chojja as best zerg at the moment is because of the same reasons, he doesn't win convincingly (except in ZvZ which he shows great understanding despite his recent losses.) His ZvP is appalling just like Yellows by progaming standards and the ZvT games were usually map dependant and still damn close when he won, or bad rapes when he lost. So just look at the way they play and you'll easily be able to tell if their over or underrated. Players that are doing poorly right now for no reason at all, Reach (too stupid), Nada (same), July (same). The feeling I get is that they play the same way they do in tournaments as when they practice or just play for fun. It's like they can't shift into second gear. They know they rape and outplay people in normal games, but when the real deal is on, they don't rise a notch and play smarter / better. end rant. | ||
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Luhh
Sweden2974 Posts
A good pro zerg like Savior for instance decides on the other hand to power and build drones and expansions and that's the reason he gets mutalisks. To prevent a terran from leaving his base. Yellow instead tries to kill tons of shit and usually fails and thus must fight off of 2 or a maximum of 3 base economy against a 2 base economy terran. This leads to eventual and definite horrible rape, cuz Yellow is also too lazy and clueless to tech to hive. What I mean when I say lazy is that it is so much easier to just go through your hotkeys and builds units from your hatcheries, instead of building drones and ordering them to mine or send them with good timing to new expansions. The same goes for tech. | ||
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Orome
Switzerland9064 Posts
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_PulSe_
United States541 Posts
On October 03 2006 17:24 DTDominion wrote: Overall comments Boxer basically ceded control of the game flow to Savior strategically every game. The most intelligent strategy I've seen against Savior is to go 8 rax or to go 1/2 rax fast CC, which Boxer didn't do any of the games. In his post game interview Boxer said that attempting a Bunker rush was necessary against zergs of Savior's level. So why not!?!?!? If Boxer had put his all into these games and still lost I wouldn't really care, because Savior is simply a best and you can only do so much, but Boxer didn't seem to be trying at all. Boxer in an interview stated that he had a different strategy for every game. So im sure for the sake of flahyness he wasnt going to open every game with an 8 rax or fast CC. Plus that would get boring 5 games in a row. Im sure he was more worried about the "game" than he was about the win. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On October 04 2006 10:15 SuperJongMan wrote: But Mortality, I'm just saying Oov was the most dominating ever. In his era, his time, Oov killed every legend and pissed off countless people. Yellow? Boxer? Reach? I know Savior is #1 Z, but he is not more dominating right now than Boxer was, Nada was, Oov was, July was. There is finally a non-fuckn terran who can be on a dominating level as those guys. I didn't even mention Chojja vs Savior, I don't think I even have to bother? Savior is on that level with July and I don't think Savior is more dominating than those 4 were. Yeah, July in his prime was also truly truly terrifying... I didn't wanna admit it even, watching Gillette was like watching Ra vs Savior. You really, really aren't understanding what I am saying, and I feel I must repeat myself. When I talk about "dominating," I'm talking about controlling the rhythym of the game, NOT how intimidating someone is. Rhythym control has nothing to do with win/loss records, and everything to do with the pace of the game you are playing. It's a part of individual games. Boxer has never been a master of controlling the rhythym of the game. He's just smart enough to find the holes in his opponent's rhythym and exploit them. Did IntoTheRain not say that he enjoys watching Boxer play the most because Boxer is imperfect? What's fun about Boxer is not his perfection, not his ability to tune to game to his own tempo, but his ability to make-up for his shortcomings by finding the hole to exploit and exploiting it. NaDa I will give you can compete in rhythym control, but you are listing him for the wrong reason. You're listing him based on accomplishments, not based on rhythym control. Same with Oov, but I feel also that to some extent Oov tries to force the rhythym of the game rather than controlling it, dominating it. July wasn't really a master of rhythym. He was just someone who could perfectly play all-in, but that's why players like NaDa presented such a huge challenge to him -- July couldn't break NaDa's rhythym. If you know anything about parenting or owning pets, then you know that there is a huge difference between forcing something and controlling it. If you yell at a kid to try to make him do what you want, then you are trying to force him and unless his self-confidence is terribly low, he will be resistant to you. What you want to do is dominate them. This is more of an artform than anything else. The child (or animal as the case may be -- and yes, the same tricks work on both) responds to various cues from your body language, tone and inclination that tell him/her/it that YOU are the alpha and YOU are in control. This is what the word "dominating" is in reference to, except instead of talking about dominating the person, I'm talking about dominating the rhythym, the flow of the game -- that intangible force that tells you who is controlling the game. Savior has outstanding micro and macro, but it is neither of those that make him the player who he is. What makes Savior the best Zerg in the world is his understanding of how to control the flow. No matter what choice you make, Savior has a plan on how to use your own strategy against you. Savior not only controls his own rhythym, but whether you realize it or not, he is controlling yours as well! Edit: It could be said that July tries to win by breaking his opponent's rhythym, where as Savior wins by dominating it. In general, more passive players are better at dominating the rhythym than aggressive players by neccessity, but some low econ players like Yellow[name] never cease to amaze me. The rhythym control of that 1 hatch muta on 815 against Oov was just astounding. | ||
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DeathBlow
Romania117 Posts
Imagine the surprise after the game 3 . Totaly shocking to see that this was for real. Thinking back i must admit it\'s something normal for new wave of players to beat the old school ones. It\'s normal and it\'s neccesary because without new stars progaming scene will die with the retreat of the old generation . What it\'s sad it\'s the fact that this had to happend to Slayer "Mister Creativity" Boxer . Without him will have to stick with those boring standard games that everybody plays this days. | ||
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_Carlodajin_
Peru88 Posts
PD: I like to tell Savior fans that Savior is indeed a great player...but that doesnt mean that im not going to talk about the special match...SlayerS_`BoxeR` vs YellOw...the real reason of this Superfight!... | ||
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tfeign
United States2976 Posts
July was never ever "invincible". I'm sorry but barely winning series at 3-2 scores vs guys like GF is far far from "invincible". Compare that to Savior who went 7-0 vs oov, 4-0 vs Boxer, etc. And I don't know what's all this Savior is the best zerg atm is about, but Kespa for months and months has been saying and repeating that Chojja is the #1 | ||
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Orome
Switzerland9064 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
"Months and months"...not really. When did Chojja take the #1 spot. July? He hardly held it for "months and months" like Boxer/NaDa/July/Oov did. You are totally contradicting yourself. You put down July, but didn't he actually hold a KeSPA #1 title for a year? I'm looking at the rankings right now, and Oov took #1 in July 2004, lost it in April 2005, took it again in March this year and lost it in July, whereas JulyZerg took it in April 2005 and lost it in March 2006, holding it for about the same length of time. Then you act as though KeSPA is infallible in judging Chojja. Pick a story and stick to it. You know what I believe in more than I believe in the KeSPA rankings? The words of Boxer. If Boxer says progamers all agree that Savior is the top Zerg then Savior is the top Zerg. The rankings aren't infallible because it's limit4ed by the number of games played. You can get unlucky in maps/users you play against and not even qualify for OSL/MSL and be better than a number of people who actually did qualify. You can have a bad day when you play your qualifying games, and it's tough shit, wait until next time. But the system is that way so that tournament organizers aren't working like mad just to keep the system going. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
To talk about Chojja's ZvT, I have to dive back into my discussion of rhythym of players. You either have to control the rhythym or break/find holes in your opponent's rhythym. Chojja isn't good enough at controlling the rhythym to stand out as a management Zerg and he's not strong enough at chopping up his opponent's rhythym to stand out as a storm Zerg. He's got the fundamental elements he needs to be a Terran killer, but he lacks definition. That's why Chojja has losing records against most of the top Terran players. | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11566 Posts
Yeah, it's similar to July's lurker/ling, but the reign was longer. Why I put July up there was because of a notable style revolution he caused in Z users. It's like what Yellow should have done cept it was done at July's hands, plus the way he beat his opponants were pretty rape. July's all in's are still hard to stop for all those under pro status, and him and Savior don't lose to toss... period. Maybe Boxer did lack the macro to seem as invincible Oov Nada Savior but his game flow is the kind where you are eventually left helpless with him standing on top due to repeated successful attack after attack. It is similar to how Anytime and Casy also control their games. July can very well play macro style too... so... And I dont think Savior is a more dominating player than Oov because well... Oov was not in his Ultra-Cheater Mode anymore when Savior started killing people. Plus~ Who's the only man with 3 BACK TO BACK TO BACK MSL titles? Yes that terribly boring cheater gorilla. Oh well, I hope to god Oov shows up and trounces Savior now. ... actually.. scratch that... I want Kingdom to take him down in the upcoming next games and I don't think it's as impossible as people make it out to be. | ||
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DTDominion
United States2148 Posts
On October 04 2006 14:36 DeathBlow wrote: Honestly , i tought this event was pre-arranged . Like those games of soccer betwen different generations of players. After 2-0 for Savior i was still confident. I tought it\'s a part of the show. Imagine the surprise after the game 3 . Totaly shocking to see that this was for real. Thinking back i must admit it\'s something normal for new wave of players to beat the old school ones. It\'s normal and it\'s neccesary because without new stars progaming scene will die with the retreat of the old generation . What it\'s sad it\'s the fact that this had to happend to Slayer "Mister Creativity" Boxer . Without him will have to stick with those boring standard games that everybody plays this days. StarCraft games are never, ever pre-arranged nowadays. There was one match where it was widely believed (and I think this belief was correct), that Nada threw a game to Yellow in order to keep Yellow afloat in the OGN group. Even though nothing was ever proven the mild outrage was enough to scare the players/tournament companies into not fixing their games. Plus there was the MBC WarCraft 3 map fixing scandal, which definitely crippled that game's popularity in South Korea. Nobody in StarCraft wants that to happen with them. I guess it's normal for new wave players to beat old school players but as it's already been said, Boxer played sub-bar those games. Even if Savior ended up being the better player Boxer didn't have to embarrass himself like he did. | ||
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DTDominion
United States2148 Posts
On October 04 2006 15:59 tfeign wrote: Anyone who puts July up in the same line as Nada or Oov is ridiculous. Neither accomplishments-wise, nor dominance-wise. July was never ever "invincible". I'm sorry but barely winning series at 3-2 scores vs guys like GF is far far from "invincible". Compare that to Savior who went 7-0 vs oov, 4-0 vs Boxer, etc. And I don't know what's all this Savior is the best zerg atm is about, but Kespa for months and months has been saying and repeating that Chojja is the #1 I agree that July was never invicible the way many people say he was, but your assertion that Chojja is the best player in the world is still bullshit, especially given that you're seriously trying to use KesPA rankings as evidence for your arguement, which is just laughable. | ||
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IdrA
United States11540 Posts
On October 04 2006 15:59 tfeign wrote: Anyone who puts July up in the same line as Nada or Oov is ridiculous. Neither accomplishments-wise, nor dominance-wise. July was never ever "invincible". I'm sorry but barely winning series at 3-2 scores vs guys like GF is far far from "invincible". Compare that to Savior who went 7-0 vs oov, 4-0 vs Boxer, etc. And I don't know what's all this Savior is the best zerg atm is about, but Kespa for months and months has been saying and repeating that Chojja is the #1 it was bad enough during chojja's hot streak.... but now? are you really serious? | ||
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_Carlodajin_
Peru88 Posts
On October 04 2006 16:49 DTDominion wrote: [removed quote within quote] I agree that July was never invicible the way many people say he was, but your assertion that Chojja is the best player in the world is still bullshit, especially given that you're seriously trying to use KesPA rankings as evidence for your arguement, which is just laughable. So then for what are the KesPA rankings for? :/... | ||
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DTDominion
United States2148 Posts
On October 04 2006 08:36 Mortality wrote: Re-read what I wrote. I never called Savior the best gamer ever -- I called him the most dominating. I'm speaking entirely in terms of his ability to control the tempo of the game. Boxer, OOv, and NaDa during their primes would totally work their opponents into the ground through domination of the flow of the game. Any game I've ever seen Boxer lose was because of his terrible macro, not because of any lack of talent at gameflow control. | ||
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IdrA
United States11540 Posts
On October 04 2006 16:43 SuperJongMan wrote: Well, I do believe Savior is the first Zerg to be on that level of Nada Oov and yes, Boxer. He's the only S-Class Zerg atm. There is no S-Class toss, and there were S Class Terrans. Things change with time though... and even though you say boxer played like a fencer with a prick and poke style, early boxer was never shaken in gameflow. His tank drop killed your gameflow. Anyone remember Jungle Story? lol ~_~. It wasn't even that, Boxer honestly did seem invincible from even early game and his old OSL games were not on the long side. Generally, he killed most people quickly and swiftly. Only when Reach came along did things change in SC. Yeah, it's similar to July's lurker/ling, but the reign was longer. Why I put July up there was because of a notable style revolution he caused in Z users. It's like what Yellow should have done cept it was done at July's hands, plus the way he beat his opponants were pretty rape. July's all in's are still hard to stop for all those under pro status, and him and Savior don't lose to toss... period. Maybe Boxer did lack the macro to seem as invincible Oov Nada Savior but his game flow is the kind where you are eventually left helpless with him standing on top due to repeated successful attack after attack. It is similar to how Anytime and Casy also control their games. July can very well play macro style too... so... And I dont think Savior is a more dominating player than Oov because well... Oov was not in his Ultra-Cheater Mode anymore when Savior started killing people. Plus~ Who's the only man with 3 BACK TO BACK TO BACK MSL titles? Yes that terribly boring cheater gorilla. Oh well, I hope to god Oov shows up and trounces Savior now. ... actually.. scratch that... I want Kingdom to take him down in the upcoming next games and I don't think it's as impossible as people make it out to be. nada had 3 back to back msl wins didnt he? or was one of them before it officially became msl? | ||
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Last Romantic
United States20605 Posts
"He can only go all in", "he is too stupid to tech to hive", "he is clueless" wtf? His all time ranking in this game is still what, third? After NaDa and BoxeR? And while everyone is talking about Kespa #1, remember that YellOw held Kespa #2 for about two years. Of course, he could never get number 1, because YellOw is chronic #2. Low econ attack styles = how he plays, it's why he's called the storm zerg in the first place. No hive tech? -__-;; He used to get guards a lot. Didn't see any vs BoxeR, though. | ||
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tfeign
United States2976 Posts
On October 04 2006 16:29 Mortality wrote: How cute. The only place where Chojja is stronger than Savior is ZvZ, and even there, the 9-8 record Savior has OVER Chojja says to me that Savior is not too far behind. Savior is clearly by far and away the greater Terran killer, and he's looking a bit sharper against the toss gamers he faces, but I think TL.net does give Chojja injustice in his ZvP. They look at his battles against Ra and Reach and say "Well, Savior would walk all over them" forgetting that Chojja is on the same team as Reach and Ra. Anything can happen with teammates. "Months and months"...not really. When did Chojja take the #1 spot. July? He hardly held it for "months and months" like Boxer/NaDa/July/Oov did. You are totally contradicting yourself. You put down July, but didn't he actually hold a KeSPA #1 title for a year? I'm looking at the rankings right now, and Oov took #1 in July 2004, lost it in April 2005, took it again in March this year and lost it in July, whereas JulyZerg took it in April 2005 and lost it in March 2006, holding it for about the same length of time. Then you act as though KeSPA is infallible in judging Chojja. Pick a story and stick to it. You know what I believe in more than I believe in the KeSPA rankings? The words of Boxer. If Boxer says progamers all agree that Savior is the top Zerg then Savior is the top Zerg. The rankings aren't infallible because it's limit4ed by the number of games played. You can get unlucky in maps/users you play against and not even qualify for OSL/MSL and be better than a number of people who actually did qualify. You can have a bad day when you play your qualifying games, and it's tough shit, wait until next time. But the system is that way so that tournament organizers aren't working like mad just to keep the system going. Boxer's job is to play Starcraft. Kespa's job is to rank players. I'm taking the word from guy whose job is to rank players. No one is completely infallible, but Kespa, the most reputable organization in the world that deals with ranking Starcraft players, is much less fallible than you. I'm not speaking for myself, I'm speaking for Kespa. | ||
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DTDominion
United States2148 Posts
On October 04 2006 13:09 Orome wrote: We definitely didn't see Boxer in his best shape yesterday, he was probably nervous as hell. What surprised me was that some of the the strategies he'd prepared (in the first four games at least, I couldn't see the rest) were horrible. I could only be surprised so much. Boxer is known for playing more for his fans than to win. As much as I respect Boxer in many ways I totally disagree with him on this. It's even worse because [quote] I seriously do not know what Boxer was thinking. Maybe he was trying to show everyone he could win a macro war, but 14 ccing as Boxer against Savior is suicide. Savior totally manhandled him, it was cruel to watch. Boxer wasn't even near winning any fight that game. [/quote[ Because the spawn distances are so far on Blitz when it comes to ground attacks, Boxer figured that by going 14 CC he could gain the economic advantage necessary to beat Savior. Really, Boxer was just outplayed this time around. Savior displayed far superior micro and macro, plus his choice of guards was just beast. I still feel like I'm missing something though. [quote]Game 3 I couldn't see the first ~5 minutes because of lag, but it looked like Savior scouted Boxer's factory, raped Boxer's m&m and raped him? Then he let him live a little to be nice/cruel?[/quote] You're basically correct. The proxy fact was so pointless, even if it wasn't scouted what would it have done? [quote]Game 1 against Yellow was stupid. Why Boxer still refused to go something normal like 2 rax is beyond me. Yellow reacted well to the goliaths, going mass muta and expanding to the islands, where Boxer had no chance of attacking. Boxer had to re-expand to keep up with Yellow's economy, and Yellow just attacked wherever Boxer's goliaths wasn't. Why Boxer'd go 2 fac on this map...[/quote] Agreed. [quote]Boxer would've needed his very best game to win against Savior, but he was far from it yesterday. Savior played immaculate like he usually does. I'm extremely unhappy he lost 0-3, I felt like the win against Yellow didn't count for anything, because what good is it if Boxer can beat his old rival, when he can't keep up with the modern Zergs anymore? (not that I think that's true, but that's the message it sends.)[/QUOTE] Totally agreed. | ||
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DTDominion
United States2148 Posts
On October 04 2006 11:34 PoP wrote: Yellow looked less good on basically every single aspect of the game and Boxer wasn't really playing better than vs Savior either, except well, it seems it was enough to beat Yellow. The last game was quite cool though. But overall Boxer played sloppy in pretty much every single of his games and I'm quite sure he wouldn't have lost the first series 3-0 vs Savior had he been in his best shape. Bit of a shame. As I've said many many times before, though, Boxer's strategies in the games he won against Yellow were infinitely more intelligent that his strategies against Savior. While his play was definitely still sloppy (though again, not as sloppy as against Savior IMO), choosing strategies that weren't doomed from the moment Boxer split his SCVs was a rather important component to his victory. | ||
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DTDominion
United States2148 Posts
On October 04 2006 16:58 IdrA wrote: [removed quote within quote] nada had 3 back to back msl wins didnt he? or was one of them before it officially became msl? Nada had 3 wins but I"m not sure if they were back to back or not. | ||
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Luhh
Sweden2974 Posts
On October 04 2006 15:59 tfeign wrote: Anyone who puts July up in the same line as Nada or Oov is ridiculous. Neither accomplishments-wise, nor dominance-wise. July was never ever "invincible". I'm sorry but barely winning series at 3-2 scores vs guys like GF is far far from "invincible". Compare that to Savior who went 7-0 vs oov, 4-0 vs Boxer, etc. Yeah, he wasn't as dominant, but I put it more down to race. Terran is the simcity race - it's about building stuff. Terran pretty much always has the initiative in the matches (even though it's passive sometimes) and have the ability to fight on their own terms. The builder/defense aspect is what gave those dominant terrans their consistency. If you could always do the same thing, with no fear of sudden or early defeat, then you were free to attack and kill as you pleased and take control of the game later on. This was during a time when OLgrouping mutas weren't a threat and macrotosses weren't flourishing. Being best terran was equal to being best player. In terms of skill, July was certainly as dominant as those players, but not in terms of records and results. And I don't know what's all this Savior is the best zerg atm is about, but Kespa for months and months has been saying and repeating that Chojja is the #1 Kespa is based on results, not by judging player ability based on gameplay and skill. Also, this gets skewed since not all players get to play each other, and not all players get to participate. As I said, it takes a bit of luck to qualify, and this also goes for playoff brackets. Do I think Chojja would have won MSL 2 seasons ago if he had to face oov in a bo5? Very unlikely. Chojja is one of the top zergs, and I don't disagree with that, but calling him best zerg now or during any other time this year is just plain wrong. | ||
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DTDominion
United States2148 Posts
On October 04 2006 13:23 Luhh wrote: AM I the ONLY ONE who gets tired of, - "yeah, but OSL is the tournament that REALLY matters!". Because as you already said, OSL is a higher stress environment. Not doing well in OSL shows a lack of ability to play under significant pressure. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On October 04 2006 17:06 tfeign wrote: [removed quote within quote] Boxer's job is to play Starcraft. Kespa's job is to rank players. I'm taking the word from guy whose job is to rank players. No one is completely infallible, but Kespa, the most reputable organization in the world that deals with ranking Starcraft players, is much less fallible than you. I'm not speaking for myself, I'm speaking for Kespa. 1.) You contradict the importance of KeSPA's rankings in your own post, so don't even pretend to "speak for KeSPA. 2.) I gave a good reason why it's possible that the #2 KeSPA can be better than the #1. Obviously Chojja is no slouch, but the fact that SO FEW games are played against SO MANY different opponents makes it hard to distinguish between two players who made top 3 in 3 consecutive tournaments (Chojja 3rd MSL, 1st MSL then 2nd OSL vs Savior 1st MSL, 2nd MSL, 1st MSL). 3.) KeSPA has other jobs than keeping rankings. In fact, it's not their job at all to rank players -- they just do it anyway. KeSPA serves as an organizational body for e-Sports in Korea, so it has much larger, more important matters to discuss. 4.) KeSPA does the best it can to use results to rank players using the information it has, but that's all it uses. Progamers study their opponents. They know substantially more about the strengths and weaknesses of their opponents than KeSPA does by neccessity, and they pay particular attention to the more powerful players (the S-class players). You're wrong -- Boxer is not paid to play, Boxer is paid to win. He's paid to win his games and help his teammates win theirs. Nobody is stupid enough to pay somebody money just to play. 5.) It's always fun pointing out how stupid you are. I see now you've changed tactics from writing large posts to sound intelligent to writing smaller posts with each sentence designed to sound intelligent so that there is less fuel for me to burn, yet you still leave so much. Nonetheless, I don't think I'm going to continue arguing with you from now on, because I have realized exactly how stupid you are -- stupid enough so that arguing with you is like competiting in the Special Olympics. Could somebody brighten my day by throwing up a picture that depicts what I said in the last sentence of #5? Thanks in advance. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On October 04 2006 16:58 IdrA wrote: [removed quote within quote] nada had 3 back to back msl wins didnt he? or was one of them before it officially became msl? The first was technically KPGA, but for all intents and purposes it was the same tournament. Yes, he won three in a row. He competed in four consecutive finals, and six MSL finals in total (counting KPGA since it's the same thing). SuperJongMan -- I'm still not sure you're getting me. There's a difference between breaking your opponent's rhythym and controlling it. Savior prefers controlling it; Boxer and July prefer breaking it. Of course both Boxer and July are capable of controlling the rhythym quite well, but not like Savior. Oov you can sort of argue, but I still think he wasn't as good at it as Savior. By and large, controlling the rhythym or tempo of the game is something macro players prefer to do whereas breaking it is something micro players prefer to do, but sometimes it goes the other way. | ||
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_Carlodajin_
Peru88 Posts
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Orome
Switzerland9064 Posts
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IdrA
United States11540 Posts
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Myxomatosis
United States2392 Posts
On October 04 2006 18:12 _Carlodajin_ wrote: Why are you arguing this on the Superfight thread? :/...We should be talking about when IlOveOOv raped Savior and Savior fans said he wanted to lose...now when Savior got raped by IlOveOOv Savior was playing for a tournament...its more possible that SlayerS_`BoxeR` wanted to give a 100% vs YellOw and losed 3 fast games than Savior wanted to...what was it?...Saving strategies for more important match?...Dont you see it?...SlayerS_`BoxeR` vs YellOw was the real Superfight match!...5 awesome matches to be remembered by all SlayerS_`BoxeR fans!... huh? | ||
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DTDominion
United States2148 Posts
It's even worse because of how much of a non-authority KesPA is when it comes to rankings. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On October 04 2006 18:41 IdrA wrote: breaking the tempo is just another form of controlling it, no? No. It's another form of controlling the outcome of the game, yes, but it's a bit different. The difference is both subtle and intangible. Earlier I was etting flustered that people didn't seem to understand, but reflecting, I think it's something you can't really understand unless you spend time with a fairly intelligent dependent (i.e. a young child or a more intelligent animal). The distinction is in how you approach the situation. Savior kind of lets you play out your strategy and somehow instead of playing it the way you want to, you are playing it the way he wants to. A player like July will more seek to prevent you from playing out your strategy. It goes beyond merely playing a passive or defensive game because we've seen him get aggressive at times too -- it's that somehow he's in your head, guiding your thoughts. That game vs Terato was a perfect example of his domination. He let Terato do Terato's strategy and he showed Terato what he wanted Terato to see and made him think what he wanted to think and then suddenly it was too late. Game 5 vs Midas in the last MSL was another great example. He somehow knew Midas would cheese and he somehow knew Midas would cancel the barracks and then he spread all over the map knowing that Midas wouldn't do shit to stop it. He guides you, he controls you. He's inside your mind. He doesn't have to force himself onto you and yet you realize before the end that he's the one in control. I hope that clarifies what I mean. The only other player who I htink had this kind of magical ability to shut you down without even really doing much of anything was NaDa back in his prime. Boxer's magic and even Oov's magic (as good as Oov was at doing this) were very different, especially Boxer's. Boxer would just throw you off with something you had never seen before. Maybe it would be crazy micro, maybe a new strategy or unusual use of a unit (like that time he built a depot so his SCV could escape Garimto's dragoon...just art). Oov was also good at getting in someone's head, especially with regards to sensing cheese, but more like Boxer he blended his passive mind control with Boxer's strategic mentality of having more thought-out preset plans that he would try to force onto his opponent, and he combined that still with his mass macro mode where he would just seem to outgrow his opponent and could afford to throw unit after unit around. I typed more than I meant to. | ||
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IdrA
United States11540 Posts
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gg_hertzz
2148 Posts
i leave bw a few months and all of a sudden this guy, who i just found out was once ipxzerg, is suddenly called the most dominant player ever. Last time I heard, July was the most dominant. what makes him much better than july?? | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
Savior is so highly praised because he's winning over 70% vs T and P both. The last time a Zerg had such high winning records across the board was...well, never. | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11566 Posts
Boxer and July's style, Offensive rhythm breaks. Swords Oov, Savior, Nada, Shields. Macro Oriented impenetrable Defence (Boxer too, but not the same style of defence) Shield vs Sword. Classic argument, neither side is wrong, I just think you should give swords like Casy Boxer Anytime and July more credit. Also, I don't think Savior's gameflow is as untouchable as Oov and Nada in their primes. They all had that perfect armor aura. In the end, it's a matter of opinion but I do understand what you are saying, I just wanna say Swords are a different and just as effective form of rhythm control. Well, maybe not as effective at the moment, but Anytime and Casy's rise lead me to believe otherwise. EDIT - Example I thought of, Casy vs Yellow on Peaks, Casy's early rush pretty much gave him the game control all game. Chojja vs Casy, his intitiative the whole series won it for him. Casy vs Anytime on 815, that is still imo, the ultimate sword game in recent times. Simply exploiting lack of a perfect defense to tie up Anytime's ability to do anything through constant effective offensives. | ||
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tfeign
United States2976 Posts
On October 04 2006 17:54 Mortality wrote: [removed quote within quote] 1.) You contradict the importance of KeSPA's rankings in your own post, so don't even pretend to "speak for KeSPA. 2.) I gave a good reason why it's possible that the #2 KeSPA can be better than the #1. Obviously Chojja is no slouch, but the fact that SO FEW games are played against SO MANY different opponents makes it hard to distinguish between two players who made top 3 in 3 consecutive tournaments (Chojja 3rd MSL, 1st MSL then 2nd OSL vs Savior 1st MSL, 2nd MSL, 1st MSL). 3.) KeSPA has other jobs than keeping rankings. In fact, it's not their job at all to rank players -- they just do it anyway. KeSPA serves as an organizational body for e-Sports in Korea, so it has much larger, more important matters to discuss. 4.) KeSPA does the best it can to use results to rank players using the information it has, but that's all it uses. Progamers study their opponents. They know substantially more about the strengths and weaknesses of their opponents than KeSPA does by neccessity, and they pay particular attention to the more powerful players (the S-class players). You're wrong -- Boxer is not paid to play, Boxer is paid to win. He's paid to win his games and help his teammates win theirs. Nobody is stupid enough to pay somebody money just to play. 5.) It's always fun pointing out how stupid you are. I see now you've changed tactics from writing large posts to sound intelligent to writing smaller posts with each sentence designed to sound intelligent so that there is less fuel for me to burn, yet you still leave so much. Nonetheless, I don't think I'm going to continue arguing with you from now on, because I have realized exactly how stupid you are -- stupid enough so that arguing with you is like competiting in the Special Olympics. Could somebody brighten my day by throwing up a picture that depicts what I said in the last sentence of #5? Thanks in advance. 1) No 2) And there are just as many reasons why #1 is #1 3) Doesn't change the fact that Kespa is the world's #1, most credible&reputable source for ranking players in the history of e-sport 4) Kespa uses results in mechanical formulas to determine ranking without bias. People are biased based on many factors. Feel free to believe who you think is #1. But I hold my own view, and the most reputable e-sport-ranking organization agrees with me, that Chojja is currently the world's #1 player. | ||
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Bladox
Canada763 Posts
Savior toyed with boxer. He basically used every units (except queens and devourers wich doesnt count as units) in every game. In game 3 he was so tired at the end that he went ''all in'' in a wonderfull green minimap line of death. This is the 1st time I see Boxer getting this owned 3 times in a row. | ||
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SuperJongMan
Jamaica11566 Posts
On October 04 2006 23:48 Bladox wrote: well... boxer got outclassed, outplayed and outrunned by Savior. Savior toyed with boxer. He basically used every units (except queens and devourers wich doesnt count as units) in every game. In game 3 he was so tired at the end that he went ''all in'' in a wonderfull green minimap line of death. This is the 1st time I see Boxer getting this owned 3 times in a row. Post #666... blasphemy. Words of the Devil. Die. | ||
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red.venom
United States4650 Posts
Yellow tried to counter what he thought was Boxer teching, and Boxer possibly got the best opening he could have vs it with his double CC 4 Rax build... The only thing stopping him from getting completely rolled was him killing the first marine group and eliminating a Rax and 2 supply depots... There was nothing epic about the game or the finale of it, T smelled a drop when he probably scanned and saw no hive, Z simply was behind from step 1. It COULD have been a game to remember if Yellow hadnt missed the guerilla M&M group that Boxer sent out and ended up killing his expansion with. But alas, my dream of seeing yellow triumph here was unfulfilled. Overall for these I would say... Savior rolled Boxer up like nothing, for someone who plays low(ish) apm and all strategy he managed to outwit Boxer in every game and imo he let game 3 go on so he could toy with the emperor a little and at least make a game of it for the audience. Yellow vs Boxer was set up on some gay maps. Although yellow won game 1, by all means his odds on the first 2 maps were incredibly small to win. Game 2 was my favorite because it was nice to see a low econ game and yellow REALLY hustled and imo nearly had game advantage at a few points. Game 4 was well played too and I think its the first time ive seen a Z win such a game upon losing so much to a bunker. And last I have to say that game 1 was pure goof troop shit, man yellow used HOT486 strat from WAY back, that was a sight to see. And I think Boxer maybe took a little bit too much advice from iloveoov and expected a 1hat opening. | ||
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red.venom
United States4650 Posts
On October 04 2006 21:25 gg_hertzz wrote: anyone care to explain why savior is so highly praised? i leave bw a few months and all of a sudden this guy, who i just found out was once ipxzerg, is suddenly called the most dominant player ever. Last time I heard, July was the most dominant. what makes him much better than july?? 2 things: He actually wins every match up with a high % particularly ZvT which I would have no problem saying he is the top ZvT player right now(And some would say moreso ZvP, but I think thats less distinguishable because every pro zerg can beat any P on the right day) AND currently the league he is dominating(MSL) has some maps that just suit his play perfectly. He is well on his way to another MSL final imo. His play most reminds me of oov actually. Just very standard and solid play with some traits that currently set him well apart of the other Zergs the same way oovs play did when he was dominating. Its like he is comfortable pacing himself as long as the needs to go and I think he chooses really good strategies too. | ||
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siro)
Australia848 Posts
On October 04 2006 22:17 tfeign wrote: [removed quote within quote] 1) No 2) And there are just as many reasons why #1 is #1 3) Doesn't change the fact that Kespa is the world's #1, most credible&reputable source for ranking players in the history of e-sport 4) Kespa uses results in mechanical formulas to determine ranking without bias. People are biased based on many factors. Feel free to believe who you think is #1. But I hold my own view, and the most reputable e-sport-ranking organization agrees with me, that Chojja is currently the world's #1 player. So when the new rankings come out that include this MSL, you'll admit savior > chojja? | ||
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YoUr_KiLLeR
United States3420 Posts
On October 04 2006 22:17 tfeign wrote: Feel free to believe who you think is #1. But I hold my own view, and the most reputable e-sport-ranking organization agrees with me, that Chojja is currently the world's #1 player. are you fuckin serious ahahahahahaahaha. i cant decide if you're trolling right now. this once again proves that tfeign knows nothing about starcraft and needs numbers and statistics to guide him. | ||
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YoUr_KiLLeR
United States3420 Posts
On October 04 2006 15:59 tfeign wrote: July was never ever "invincible". I'm sorry but barely winning series at 3-2 scores vs guys like GF is far far from "invincible". Compare that to Savior who went 7-0 vs oov, 4-0 vs Boxer, etc. And I don't know what's all this Savior is the best zerg atm is about, but Kespa for months and months has been saying and repeating that Chojja is the #1 if you forgot, oov beat kingdom 3-2 in his 3rd MSL win, he beat reach 3-2 in ever semis, he beat boxer 3-2 in the finals. there is no shame in july winning 3-2 vs a terran as good at tvz as goodfriend is in a series that used neo forte twice. july made 4 OSL finals in 2 years time. thats as invincible as anyone will get these days in progaming. | ||
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alffla
Hong Kong20296 Posts
On October 05 2006 02:31 YoUr_KiLLeR wrote: [removed quote within quote] are you fuckin serious ahahahahahaahaha. i cant decide if you're trolling right now. this once again proves that tfeign knows nothing about starcraft and needs numbers and statistics to guide him. lol i thought it was quite bad before, now i just ........yeah - _- | ||
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YoUr_KiLLeR
United States3420 Posts
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LeoTheLion
China958 Posts
Did he spend anytime practicing for this? It seems that he spent most of his time doing other stuff, such as hanging out with friends and family, and enjoying his last few weeks before he has to go off ot the military. | ||
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red.venom
United States4650 Posts
On October 05 2006 02:10 siro) wrote: [removed quote within quote] So when the new rankings come out that include this MSL, you'll admit savior > chojja? Hahaha. He wont but yes because Kespa is such a bastion of e-sports player ranking it will be undisputable that Savior > Chojja!!! | ||
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Resonate
United Kingdom8402 Posts
in a year he'll be slumping just like boxer, reach, oov, nada, xellos etc all did after they peaked | ||
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_Carlodajin_
Peru88 Posts
On October 04 2006 19:16 Myxomatosis wrote: Why are you arguing this on the Superfight thread? :/...We should be talking about when IlOveOOv raped Savior and Savior fans said he wanted to lose...now when Savior got raped by IlOveOOv Savior was playing for a tournament...its more possible that SlayerS_`BoxeR` wanted to give a 100% vs YellOw and losed 3 fast games than Savior wanted to...what was it?...Saving strategies for more important match?...Dont you see it?...SlayerS_`BoxeR` vs YellOw was the real Superfight match!...5 awesome matches to be remembered by all SlayerS_`BoxeR fans!... huh? That was in its right place until you say that you know :/... | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On October 04 2006 22:17 tfeign wrote: [removed quote within quote] 1) No 2) And there are just as many reasons why #1 is #1 3) Doesn't change the fact that Kespa is the world's #1, most credible&reputable source for ranking players in the history of e-sport 4) Kespa uses results in mechanical formulas to determine ranking without bias. People are biased based on many factors. Feel free to believe who you think is #1. But I hold my own view, and the most reputable e-sport-ranking organization agrees with me, that Chojja is currently the world's #1 player. You've got to be trolling. I refuse to believe that someone is as stupid as you. | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On October 04 2006 21:54 SuperJongMan wrote: Morality - Boxer and July's style, Offensive rhythm breaks. Swords Oov, Savior, Nada, Shields. Macro Oriented impenetrable Defence (Boxer too, but not the same style of defence) Shield vs Sword. Classic argument, neither side is wrong, I just think you should give swords like Casy Boxer Anytime and July more credit. Also, I don't think Savior's gameflow is as untouchable as Oov and Nada in their primes. They all had that perfect armor aura. In the end, it's a matter of opinion but I do understand what you are saying, I just wanna say Swords are a different and just as effective form of rhythm control. Well, maybe not as effective at the moment, but Anytime and Casy's rise lead me to believe otherwise. EDIT - Example I thought of, Casy vs Yellow on Peaks, Casy's early rush pretty much gave him the game control all game. Chojja vs Casy, his intitiative the whole series won it for him. Casy vs Anytime on 815, that is still imo, the ultimate sword game in recent times. Simply exploiting lack of a perfect defense to tie up Anytime's ability to do anything through constant effective offensives. No, it's not a sword vs shield argument. Obviously shield players prefer to control their opponent's flow rather than break it and the opposite is true for sword players, but that is only generally speaking. Casy, the very player you mentioned in your example, is very strong at controling the flow rather than breaking it. In fact, in his series vs Yellow, Casy generally did better when he controlled the flow rather than trying to break Yellow's flow, or at least that was my impression. The commentators seemed to agree from what I hear. | ||
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MoltkeWarding
5195 Posts
2nd most dominant player atm? I think Midas... | ||
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XDsCrazy
Canada119 Posts
Let me explain my point. oov, savior grown up with the imagine of Starcraft and progaming in korea. It was everywhere, they knew what it was, they worked for it and yea atm they are DOMINATING. Nothing to take from them, they are really good in every aspect of the game. But when you talk about Boxer, Yellow, HOT (retired now)... Those guys didnt grown up with progaming, they created the progaming job. They were there when it started. They built the image of a progamer, the lifestyle, the training method. Plus, the game was still in developement back then, so it was all about who was more creative. Now its all about who make a small mystake lose and its normal after 6+ year of progaming, they know the game. Dont try to say Savior is the best of all ..... neither is oov, neither is nada, neither is July. For how long have they been in the top 30 of progaming ? 1 year ? 2 year ? maybe 3 at top. Boxer / yellow are in that top for like 6 year straight.. Thats consistancy. Who is the best ? A hockey player who score 90 goal in 1 season and then 20 goal for 5 year straight or a player that score 50 goal 6 season in a row ? Yea you got the point. Those guys built the progaming scene, they developp the game, devellope new play style, adaptation, timing, strategie, micro management. Yes Savior/oov/july are the new star atm and its cool ... programing need new star to keep improving and keep the fan interrested but no they are not what boxer/yellow/hot were .... and they will never be unless they keep that dominance for 5 year + Its like saying whos the best hockey player ? Mario Lemieux or Maurice Richard. One was the best player on the ice 5-6 year ago. One is simply a legend. You cant compare both And for the game. Savior played flawlessly 3 games in a row. It was not only impressive it was PERFECT. Boxer was not playing like he used too .... I mean u remember boxer loosin shuttle to scourge randomly back in the day ? I dont he would micro those ship like crazy but those game he didnt even try to avoid scourges he just lost those ship.Same thing with Vessel. You remember boxer moving his army with 1 vessel ahead of his whole army diein to 2 scourges ? I dont either And the most entertaining game were defenetly Boxer vs Yellow game 5 cuz it seem that both decided to play it old school TvZ and it remind me so good memories about this game Those guy legend of progaming. They made what it is today and if all of you are so exited about topic related to progamer and pro tournament in korea is only because of people like those 2. Show some respect | ||
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MoltkeWarding
5195 Posts
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XDsCrazy
Canada119 Posts
You guys need to realize been dominant dont absolutly mean winning everything .... Can you imagine how many player try their luck as progamer and yet u see the same guy succeeding year after year after year | ||
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puLs.ReADy
Bulgaria1301 Posts
On October 05 2006 11:11 MoltkeWarding wrote: Boxer has not been dominant for 4 years...he was dominant in 2001-2002, when SC was played on a much lower level. Yellow was no. 2 during the same period. I would say that today Boxer's game is far better than it was when he was dominant...still not good enough. You cannot be the prodigy of every epoch There is smth true in this ... i agree | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
But here\'s the bottom line: your argument is analogous to saying that Kareem Abdul Jabar was on a higher level of basketball than Michael Jordan, Shaq or Kobe. Of the three players you mention, the only that you can *truly* argue was on a greater level was Boxer. I\'m not even sure that I would put the legendary one and only Grrrr on a \"higher level\" than the gamers of today, who are frankly, just as amazing compared to their time as Grrrr was compared to his time. The fact is that Boxer, Yellow and H.O.T happened to be in the right place at the right time bring the right skill sets and experiences to the table. Progaming was developing with or with out them. yes, I said it, progaming would still have developed without them. You can\'t have a game become that important a past time in a society (Korea) with that many players and that much competition and not have progaming develop. Those players lead the evolution of the progaming scene because they were the best of their day. And of the three, only Boxer truly stands out in that progaming would not have been the same without him -- his crazy strategies and phenomenal micro won the hearts of the fans, and that did nothing other than spur yet greater support for progaming. Yet even without Boxer, all those tricks would still have been invented at some point, maybe months later, maybe years later. Even without Boxer the game would have lived on and other big names would rise up. You see this game as burned out and you see it\'s glory days as over, yet progamer salaries continue to rise and new events continue popping up, and new stars are shaping the evolution of Starcraft just as the old stars did, changing the way we look at things. Do you remember the domination of Terran gamers? Do you remember how Protoss stars were brought to their knees, outgrown by Terran and Zerg? Then July held KeSPA #1 for a year and Terran players suddenly needed to adapt to his endless onslought. Then as soon as the Terrans thought that was over, Savior came along and now you have all the Terran progamers in Starcraft searching for a way to cruicify the JesusZerg (and so far failing). And with these changes comes new strategy, new trends, new ideas. If back in the old days you told someone that fast expo into mass marine/medic/vessel was a highly effective strategy for dealing with Zergs, you would have been laughed off of Battle.net. Now look at how strong SK Terran has become. The game evolved, and it was the newer generation of progamers that you so discredit who caused it to evolve. Have you seen the new KeSPA top 30 list? 11 Zergs, 10 Protoss and 9 Terrans. Man, think about how that has changed since the old days. Terran was just so dominant! Old progamers helped a lot to pave the way for progamers, but don\'t underestimate the effect of the new generation of gamers. They are doing a lot more than just copying old and repeated tricks and just as progaming would not have been the same without the old progamers, it would not have been the same without the new ones. And for the record, IMO H.O.T was a poor choice to consider next to Oov/July/Savior. Sure, H.O.T was a great player, but he failed to adapt to a newer climate of gaming. | ||
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tKd_
United States2916 Posts
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On October 05 2006 02:31 YoUr_KiLLeR wrote: [removed quote within quote] are you fuckin serious ahahahahahaahaha. i cant decide if you're trolling right now. this once again proves that tfeign knows nothing about starcraft and needs numbers and statistics to guide him. You know, I feel I want to make a comment about this. It's good to "use numbers and statistics." They are very meaningful....provided you use the correctly. Tfeign is the kind of person who makes people distrust the entire subject of statistics. It's not that the statistics are wrong -- it's that he uses them wrongly and intereprets them wrongly. Tfeign will use any stastic that supports his theory and ignore any statistic that discredits his theory. If Tfeign were convinced that Pepsi tastest better than Coke and he serveyed 100 people per day and on average they thought Coke was better, then if on one particular day 70 people said Pepsi was better Tfeign would use that as evidence that 70% of people prefer Pepsi, ignoring all the rest of the data staring him in the face. | ||
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Doctorasul
Romania1140 Posts
Where does this "S-Class" term come from, anyway? S as in Super or..? Someone said earlier in the thread that there are no S-Class protosses; anyone know what Nal_Ra's win percentages are? | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
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Artanis[Xp]
Netherlands12718 Posts
On October 04 2006 17:54 Mortality wrote: Nonetheless, I don't think I'm going to continue arguing with you from now on, because I have realized exactly how stupid you are -- stupid enough so that arguing with you is like competiting in the Special Olympics. Could somebody brighten my day by throwing up a picture that depicts what I said in the last sentence of #5? Thanks in advance. ![[image loading]](http://www.clint.ca/argue/argue.jpg) Bit late, but still. | ||
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KissBlade
United States3409 Posts
On October 05 2006 13:36 Mortality wrote: TBH, I'm not sure exactly what S-class means. When I first heard the term "S-class" it was in reference to a Zerg player who went totally macro mode so I assumed it meant "Sauron-class." S Class is typically standard for the rank above A. It's sort of the "hyper elite". Generally the ranking would go from S, A, B, C, D, E. S Class isn't a simple rank either, "A"'s are supposed to be a HUGE step above B's. S Class is supposed to be even stronger than A's. | ||
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EvilTeletubby
Baltimore, USA21796 Posts
On October 05 2006 13:54 KissBlade wrote: [removed quote within quote] S Class is typically standard for the rank above A. It's sort of the "hyper elite". Generally the ranking would go from S, A, B, C, D, E. S Class isn't a simple rank either, "A"'s are supposed to be a HUGE step above B's. S Class is supposed to be even stronger than A's. He knows what it means, he was asking what the "S" itself is supposed to stand for I think. ^_^ Edit - Best I could find online was an entry for a Mercedes-Benz line: " The name "S-Class" derives from the german word "Sonderklasse" for which "S-class" is just an abbreviation. "Sonderklasse" means "special class", meaning a specially outfitted car." | ||
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YoUr_KiLLeR
United States3420 Posts
On October 05 2006 12:42 Mortality wrote: [removed quote within quote] You know, I feel I want to make a comment about this. It's good to "use numbers and statistics." They are very meaningful....provided you use the correctly. Tfeign is the kind of person who makes people distrust the entire subject of statistics. It's not that the statistics are wrong -- it's that he uses them wrongly and intereprets them wrongly. Tfeign will use any stastic that supports his theory and ignore any statistic that discredits his theory. If Tfeign were convinced that Pepsi tastest better than Coke and he serveyed 100 people per day and on average they thought Coke was better, then if on one particular day 70 people said Pepsi was better Tfeign would use that as evidence that 70% of people prefer Pepsi, ignoring all the rest of the data staring him in the face. i'm not saying theres anything wrong with using statistics, i think its fine, but i'm saying tfeign can't see the game beyond the numbers. he looks at kespa as the absolute truth in ranking players, but skill is not such a quantitative thing. | ||
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Luhh
Sweden2974 Posts
On October 05 2006 14:02 EvilTeletubby wrote: [removed quote within quote] He knows what it means, he was asking what the "S" itself is supposed to stand for I think. ^_^ Edit - Best I could find online was an entry for a Mercedes-Benz line: " The name "S-Class" derives from the german word "Sonderklasse" for which "S-class" is just an abbreviation. "Sonderklasse" means "special class", meaning a specially outfitted car." Isn't it from card games? Like collecting playing cards etc denoting rarity/power or something? Guessing here, but I've seen it mentioned in these terms also. | ||
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karelen
Sweden2401 Posts
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YoUr_KiLLeR
United States3420 Posts
On October 05 2006 15:28 karelen wrote: those savior vs boxer games was painful to watch.. savior was just way too strong ya =(. before the games started, i wanted savior to kill boxer, but by the end of the 3rd game it was kinda sad realizing that it was over. | ||
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KissBlade
United States3409 Posts
On October 05 2006 15:33 YoUr_KiLLeR wrote: [removed quote within quote] ya =(. before the games started, i wanted savior to kill boxer, but by the end of the 3rd game it was kinda sad realizing that it was over. Boxer was playing too much for the fans, using valkyries and such like that. >_< | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On October 05 2006 15:05 YoUr_KiLLeR wrote: [removed quote within quote] i'm not saying theres anything wrong with using statistics, i think its fine, but i'm saying tfeign can't see the game beyond the numbers. he looks at kespa as the absolute truth in ranking players, but skill is not such a quantitative thing. He only cares about the KeSPA ranking because it says CHojja is #1. You watch. As soon as Savior surpasses Tfeign, we will see "Yeah, but you said yourself the KeSPA rankings aren't infallible." | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On October 05 2006 13:54 KissBlade wrote: [removed quote within quote] S Class is typically standard for the rank above A. It's sort of the "hyper elite". Generally the ranking would go from S, A, B, C, D, E. S Class isn't a simple rank either, "A"'s are supposed to be a HUGE step above B's. S Class is supposed to be even stronger than A's. I know THAT. I mean, what does the "S" stand for. A, B, C, D makes sense, but why is S above A and why just S? Obviously the "S" must stand for something. I refuse to believe a system could be so arbitrary as to put S above A just because someone likes the letter S better than the letter A. | ||
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YoUr_KiLLeR
United States3420 Posts
On October 05 2006 15:40 KissBlade wrote: [removed quote within quote] Boxer was playing too much for the fans, using valkyries and such like that. >_< i dont know, they could've worked. savior controls games with pure mutas, and valks are tough to fight with muta. but saviors muta/scourge control was too good. | ||
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HOLLAND
United States48 Posts
bow to Boxer still for going out of ordinary <3 | ||
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red.venom
United States4650 Posts
On October 05 2006 15:40 KissBlade wrote: [removed quote within quote] Boxer was playing too much for the fans, using valkyries and such like that. >_< Seemed like a pretty standard arkanoid opening to me, you do know its kind of an island map right? It was the fact that he basically lost them all without doing anything with them that sucked. | ||
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DTDominion
United States2148 Posts
It's totally arbitrary but very cool. | ||
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HonestTea
5007 Posts
S = Super Super -> A, B, C, or D (especially D) | ||
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HonestTea
5007 Posts
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DTDominion
United States2148 Posts
When you say something is S rank, I feel like that someone could hand me my ass just by being in my presence because it's so awesome. | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17673 Posts
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homeless_guy
United States321 Posts
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Orome
Switzerland9064 Posts
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Wasabi
United States3085 Posts
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DeCoup
Australia1933 Posts
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DTDominion
United States2148 Posts
On October 06 2006 19:13 DeCoup wrote: To me this whole series seemed uncharacteristic of Boxer. In most of the games i've watched boxer uses alot more cheese. It's his style. He not only finds holes in his opponents strats, but he creates them with his unique styles. But too me he seemed to be playing in a much more serious mind set. He was not showing off or taking his usual calculated risks at all. imo he played more standard tactics than usual. Dude the only games he won were when he used standard tactics! What crack are you smoking!?!? | ||
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Mortality
United States4790 Posts
On October 06 2006 19:13 DeCoup wrote: To me this whole series seemed uncharacteristic of Boxer. In most of the games i've watched boxer uses alot more cheese. It's his style. He not only finds holes in his opponents strats, but he creates them with his unique styles. But too me he seemed to be playing in a much more serious mind set. He was not showing off or taking his usual calculated risks at all. imo he played more standard tactics than usual. Do you actually think cheese would have worked? Watch where Savior's first OL went in game 2. He was prepared. And come on, Boxer cheesing Yellow? You don't think Yellow knows how Boxer plays by now? I think you undercredit Yellow's intellect. | ||
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Plexa
Aotearoa38208 Posts
On October 05 2006 15:41 Mortality wrote: im sorry... i have to leap to tfiegns defence.. before jja became number one he was proclaiming his awesomeness (and well he was right) and he was saying jja would be number 1 soon in kespa rankings. im sure tfiegn wont go saying kespa is unreliable -.-;;[removed quote within quote] He only cares about the KeSPA ranking because it says CHojja is #1. You watch. As soon as Savior surpasses Tfeign, we will see "Yeah, but you said yourself the KeSPA rankings aren't infallible." | ||
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