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Jaedong looked better last night than last week, but there were still a lot of problems people aren't really pointing out. While Jaedong did do the Stephano build, his Roach Warren was a minute late, enough to be a problem if the Toss decided to get more aggresive. Sure he scouted, but it's not hard for Toss to hide Gateways. He also didn't scout the corner of his third base, where Toss often hide Pylons; I thought the toss was going to do a 4 gate and it would have done some decent damage.
The information was available to know whether or not protoss could get aggressive, but the observer didn't catch it and didn't show us anything at all of what Jaedong knew or didn't know.
Lizzy took early two geysers at his natural and didn't chrono his cybercore very much, so warpgate finished 40-60 seconds too late for a scary warpgate timing, and with the early gas he wouldn't be able to afford the gateways in time for a 7:30-8:00 warp-in (even if warpgate was complete, which it wasn't). If JD scouted that, the gas timings and the roach warren were perfectly safe. If he played blind, it wasn't.
DRG regularly takes his gases and roach warren at the same times Jaedong did, when he knows he can get away with it.
Unfortunately the observer didn't show us what he knew. This is one of the things I love about the experienced GSL observers, they show us all these little details of what each player knows and what he doesn't know, even if the caster doesn't point it out. Maybe it's a different style, but it's also experience.
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Good point about effectively baiting force fields, although I still feel a better protoss could have punished that type of gamble.
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Over the past week, I have developed a newfound respect for Jung Sorim. Seriously.
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On May 28 2012 02:19 Lyter wrote:
WE WON SOMETHING YEA FUCK EVERYONE
Lol exactly this! I hope T8 gets their confidence back, especially JD!
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On May 28 2012 11:16 bovi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2012 04:07 PhoenixDark wrote:
Jaedong looked better last night than last week, but there were still a lot of problems people aren't really pointing out. While Jaedong did do the Stephano build, his Roach Warren was a minute late, enough to be a problem if the Toss decided to get more aggresive. Sure he scouted, but it's not hard for Toss to hide Gateways. He also didn't scout the corner of his third base, where Toss often hide Pylons; I thought the toss was going to do a 4 gate and it would have done some decent damage.
While I liked Jaedong's two pronged pressure (sniping Gateways while threatened the main protoss army), a better protoss could have easily cut his Roaches in half with force fields.
Perhaps most importantly, Jaedong didn't attempt to get ahead fast enough. Stephano and other macro zergs tend to take a fourth during their Roach pressure, and tech up depending on what happens in the battle. Jaedong took a fourth pretty late, and while he did get a Hive he didn't have any tech ready iirc. If the toss threw down a couple more gates and got two Colosus, he most likely would have won that game, Huk style off turtled two base.
There's no question Jaedong is improving (notice the good creep spread this time), I'm not 100% sold on his approach to mid/late ZvP. So far it seems like protoss are winning the most non-mirror games right now among BW players, in part because the race has so many deadly timings. Stephano and many other great zergs will be at the upcoming MLG Anaheim so Jaedong will be able to watch them up close. Should be good for him.
I've not seen zerg battle multitask like that before in the entire GSL. 2 pronged kiting. I'm sure even better protosses might not have cut the armies in half because JD's tactic has a threat to the protoss of wasting forcefields. Noticed JD attacked when a decent amount of FF were used up. So i'm sure instead of using up time/apm/resources to expo etc, he used it to deplete FF and atk. that is much more aggressive and entertaining. Could it be taking a faster 4th after producing so much would only delay tech? JD went for a +1 air after he got hive and then teched to greater spire. I think he must have felt there was no rush atm. Stephano might have a nice play style, builds but why does he not perform well at competitions (win)? For all his skill, he doesnt engage cost effectively and is especially sloppy player in the late game. but no doubt i'm a big fan. especially of aggressive zerg players. Looking forward to more BW players playing sc2 
Stephano often beats top players and seems to only lose to top players too. He finishes well almost every tournament. He can compete and beat the best there are. I'm not even a huge fan of his myself but he has some serious skill.
Baiting FFs and such happens during every PvZ and his opponent was just bad. If Jaedong played one of the code a/s Protoss he would get stomped. He is likely to improve fast though and it will be interesting to see when he gets to the level of code a or code s Zergs. I have high hopes for him 
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On May 28 2012 13:33 Oboeman wrote:Show nested quote +Jaedong looked better last night than last week, but there were still a lot of problems people aren't really pointing out. While Jaedong did do the Stephano build, his Roach Warren was a minute late, enough to be a problem if the Toss decided to get more aggresive. Sure he scouted, but it's not hard for Toss to hide Gateways. He also didn't scout the corner of his third base, where Toss often hide Pylons; I thought the toss was going to do a 4 gate and it would have done some decent damage.
The information was available to know whether or not protoss could get aggressive, but the observer didn't catch it and didn't show us anything at all of what Jaedong knew or didn't know. Lizzy took early two geysers at his natural and didn't chrono his cybercore very much, so warpgate finished 40-60 seconds too late for a scary warpgate timing, and with the early gas he wouldn't be able to afford the gateways in time for a 7:30-8:00 warp-in (even if warpgate was complete, which it wasn't). If JD scouted that, the gas timings and the roach warren were perfectly safe. If he played blind, it wasn't. DRG regularly takes his gases and roach warren at the same times Jaedong did, when he knows he can get away with it. Unfortunately the observer didn't show us what he knew. This is one of the things I love about the experienced GSL observers, they show us all these little details of what each player knows and what he doesn't know, even if the caster doesn't point it out. Maybe it's a different style, but it's also experience.
I'll be honest GSL observer (legend) is good enough that you can mute sound and he tells you the whole story of the game by highlighting everything important going on.. thats not the case with PL observer yet.
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Jaedong looking much better this time round than last week. The ZvZ he lost in a very technical way I feel: for whatever reason he was unable to capitlize on his muta opening and Crazy-Hydra found a good time to move out.
The ZvP against Lizzy was very impressive considering what we saw last week, he seemed to find his stride more easily and looked far more comfortable in the MU.
I'm really pumped to see both more of him and Flash (and Zero!) in the upcoming weeks - where this Proleague suffers in quality of games, it makes up for in writing the stories of how these players grow into SC2.
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ZvP against Lizzy was good. Lizzy has shown good games at the beginning of SPL so that was great win for JD
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I don't get that Stephano comment saying he's sloppy lategame. He's been praised several times by koreans as the best hive Zerg. Also he's the second best, of not the best ZvP in ScToo.
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On May 28 2012 13:34 PhoenixDark wrote:
Good point about effectively baiting force fields, although I still feel a better protoss could have punished that type of gamble.
He practices SC2 and BW at the same time, swapping between games. He's only just picked up this game and is able to mimic one of the top foreign zergs in the world while not dedicating all his practice time to this game. Give the guy some credit.
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On May 29 2012 11:37 Exia0276 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 28 2012 13:34 PhoenixDark wrote:
Good point about effectively baiting force fields, although I still feel a better protoss could have punished that type of gamble. He practices SC2 and BW at the same time, swapping between games. He's only just picked up this game and is able to mimic one of the top foreign zergs in the world while not fully practice this game. Give the guy some credit.
Mimic? Stephano is not even close to JD in terms of unit control. not just stephano, i haven't seen any zerg with that kinda control. JD just used a stephano build. This is JD we are talking about. His simultaneous control of his 2 armies was amazing! I'm so excited for sc2! All i've seen to date is 1A armies with the odd medivac drop, ling runby or proxy zealots/DT.
yeah all zerg's try to bait FF - in theory, but in actual doing, i've never seen it done as legitimately as JD did. something you'd go - WOW he's actually baiting those FFs so well!
its not even about whether a better protoss could've FF'd better. I think a better protoss would not have even tried to FF as the price of using them w/o a full on engagement is too costly, but that's hard to resist when the roaches keep picking off your buildings on 2 fronts.
It can only get better for zerg and sc2 :D
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Holy SHIT the underdogs won!! JD YEEEEAH
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Maybe I'm a blind fanboy, but stephano has much better control in sc2 than jaedong atm. Also, you havent watched a lot of sc2 if you've only seen a ling runby during a fight
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On May 29 2012 11:48 bovi wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 11:37 Exia0276 wrote:On May 28 2012 13:34 PhoenixDark wrote:
Good point about effectively baiting force fields, although I still feel a better protoss could have punished that type of gamble. He practices SC2 and BW at the same time, swapping between games. He's only just picked up this game and is able to mimic one of the top foreign zergs in the world while not fully practice this game. Give the guy some credit. Mimic? Stephano is not even close to JD in terms of unit control. not just stephano, i haven't seen any zerg with that kinda control. JD just used a stephano build. This is JD we are talking about. His simultaneous control of his 2 armies was amazing! I'm so excited for sc2! All i've seen to date is 1A armies with the odd medivac drop, ling runby or proxy zealots/DT.
You're a bit overexcited there :D
I know JD is a legend and that he should do very very well in sc2 in the future but for the moment he's no where near Stephano's level (as he himself admits), so please don't be over enthusiastic at FF baith (watch DRG or Stephano they do it pretty well too ^^)
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Is Team 8 sponsored by UNDFTD? Noticed they were wearing UNDFTD shirts. Ballin' :D
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On May 29 2012 17:18 Black17 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 29 2012 11:48 bovi wrote:On May 29 2012 11:37 Exia0276 wrote:On May 28 2012 13:34 PhoenixDark wrote:
Good point about effectively baiting force fields, although I still feel a better protoss could have punished that type of gamble. He practices SC2 and BW at the same time, swapping between games. He's only just picked up this game and is able to mimic one of the top foreign zergs in the world while not fully practice this game. Give the guy some credit. Mimic? Stephano is not even close to JD in terms of unit control. not just stephano, i haven't seen any zerg with that kinda control. JD just used a stephano build. This is JD we are talking about. His simultaneous control of his 2 armies was amazing! I'm so excited for sc2! All i've seen to date is 1A armies with the odd medivac drop, ling runby or proxy zealots/DT. You're a bit overexcited there :D I know JD is a legend and that he should do very very well in sc2 in the future but for the moment he's no where near Stephano's level (as he himself admits), so please don't be over enthusiastic at FF baith (watch DRG or Stephano they do it pretty well too ^^)
He's not saying jd is at stephanos level gameplay wise. He's saying he's at his level mechanically. This is true, and in fact jd is far mechanically stronger than stephano. Everythng else though stephano is stronger.
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EPT
