(Z)Jaedong, (T)BaBy, (T)Speed, (T)Flash, (Z)Action, and (P)Lizzy must play SC2. (T)Sea, (P)Jaehoon, (Z)Ryul2, (Z)Acacia (P)Wooki, and (P)Stats must play BW. Anyone can play in the Ace match (this will not affect what game they can play in the next match).
Was probably an exciting game, but I kept reading the unit counter wrong and wondering how the hell zerg got to 190 on 3 bases and getting its ass kicked everywhere.
that was such an ugly game by hoejja. it felt really lazy. lol. uncancelled hatcheries, unorganized flanking, defilers roaming everywhere and bad bad macro. I thought he was saving up for cows but they never appeared. sad sad game.
On May 27 2012 16:59 Motivate wrote: ...what made jaedong think that a counter attack was a good idea
JD was never really that far ahead. His muta play was good, but CH was still ahead in tech and upgrades. Because of that JD had to do some sort of backstab and then hope his spine wall was strong enough to thin CH's army to the point where he could defend without losing more than 2 bases(he had five when CH attacked). I think if the spines finished sooner he could've held and won. Also I don't know for sure what he made after he killed CH's 3rd with his roaches, but if he didn't retreat right away after killing a base that was a mistake too IMO.
On May 27 2012 16:59 Motivate wrote: oops wrong thread
A counter would have been fine if he hadn't been 50 supply down because he wasn't making any units for like a full 2 minutes. He was originally up in supply by about 30-40 when he made the roaches then burrowed them and just sat at 150ish supply forever. He made units when he saw the push move out ( jumped instantly to 180 supply) but that was too slow and his defensive spines were mostly dead before all his reinforcements arrived. Of course he also should have just sniped that third and then gone home so he could sandwhich CH's army. It didn't help that he was behind on upgrades either.
On May 27 2012 17:01 iLoveKT wrote: honestly I did not understand what the fck happened there.
Same. I though JD was a bit ahead during the mid game then boom he have half the supply..
Unit composition. I'm not in the mood to type out a huge response but CH made his infestors early and let them get max energy before pushing out. He made a few roaches and filled the rest of his supply with hydras. JD's comp had no chance against that. Should have tech switched to infestors immediately after taking down CH's 3rd.
On May 27 2012 17:01 iLoveKT wrote: honestly I did not understand what the fck happened there.
Same. I though JD was a bit ahead during the mid game then boom he have half the supply..
He was ahead, JD's macro let him down sadly. Got over 1.5k mins floated at points, if he'd been macroing efficiently like CH he'd have been up on supply and much more capable of countering while holding at his spinewall with his own infestors.
Ah well, lots of promising bits to his play, I'm sure he'll get the other bits down soon <3
On May 27 2012 17:01 iLoveKT wrote: honestly I did not understand what the fck happened there.
Same. I though JD was a bit ahead during the mid game then boom he have half the supply..
He was ahead, JD's macro let him down sadly. Got over 1.5k mins floated at points, if he'd been macroing efficiently like CH he'd have been up on supply and much more capable of countering while holding at his spinewall with his own infestors.
Ah well, lots of promising bits to his play, I'm sure he'll get the other bits down soon <3
Yeah of course he will, everybody will. These games doesnt mean much in my opinion.
On May 27 2012 17:01 iLoveKT wrote: honestly I did not understand what the fck happened there.
Same. I though JD was a bit ahead during the mid game then boom he have half the supply..
He was ahead, JD's macro let him down sadly. Got over 1.5k mins floated at points, if he'd been macroing efficiently like CH he'd have been up on supply and much more capable of countering while holding at his spinewall with his own infestors.
Ah well, lots of promising bits to his play, I'm sure he'll get the other bits down soon <3
Yeah of course he will, everybody will. These games doesnt mean much in my opinion.
True, I'll only look at them by October, when they're presumably exclusively practicing SC2.
that was a really nice game from flash. looked like he always did the right thing and made better decisions than baby. just too bad i missed the bw-games
On May 27 2012 17:31 Zariel wrote: Come on man... sif not have a Flash vs JD ace match.... fkn sends in motive instead.... as a KT fan, I am dissappoint.
If you're a KT fan why wouldn't you want KT to send their best SC2 player to have the best possible chance at winning?
On May 27 2012 17:39 zazone wrote: is that Lizzy guy even a BW pro or KT recruited him as SC2 only ? I hope JD wins he looks so upset all the time.
Quoted from the other thread:
I dunno if this is true or not, but apparently FXOBoss (the owner of one of the Korean/foreign teams) was in a proleague chat and he said Lizzy was actually in the process of being transfered to NSHoSeo (one of the low ranking SC2 teams) when the SC2 transition was announced. KT decided to keep him at that point.
On May 27 2012 17:39 zazone wrote: is that Lizzy guy even a BW pro or KT recruited him as SC2 only ? I hope JD wins he looks so upset all the time.
Quoted from the other thread:
I dunno if this is true or not, but apparently FXOBoss (the owner of one of the Korean/foreign teams) was in a proleague chat and he said Lizzy was actually in the process of being transfered to NSHoSeo (one of the low ranking SC2 teams) when the SC2 transition was announced. KT decided to keep him at that point.
Lizzy is a BW pro. Recruited in March 2011. He's been practicing SC2 for 6 months now, that's why he's so much better than the rest. Whether or not what the FXOBoss said is true, fact is that Lizzy was originally recruited as a BW pro and went through the same system as the rest. His results as a BW semi-pro were not bad as well.
On May 27 2012 17:39 zazone wrote: is that Lizzy guy even a BW pro or KT recruited him as SC2 only ? I hope JD wins he looks so upset all the time.
Quoted from the other thread:
I dunno if this is true or not, but apparently FXOBoss (the owner of one of the Korean/foreign teams) was in a proleague chat and he said Lizzy was actually in the process of being transfered to NSHoSeo (one of the low ranking SC2 teams) when the SC2 transition was announced. KT decided to keep him at that point.
except he was transferred to KT in March 2011 not 2012
Well Motive just learned that you need more than a few months of extra practice to do well in an ace match. Plus he was probably shaking from facing JD, even if JD won 0 games before this one.
Im actually really happy for JD. I'd root for KT if Flash was the ace but when they send motive, well they deserve to be stomped by JD :D
Against EffOrt was kind of the same thing but when effort got the advantage he didn't pressure enough hence the L against motive, otherwise this would be the second ace match defeat for him. Effort showed real promise in that first day.
So freaking happy seeing JD finally displaying the style of the modern gameflow for his match. Also taking out Lizzy is no small deal for the first ZvP victory (correct if wrong plz) of the season. GG :D
On May 27 2012 18:05 sCCrooked wrote: So freaking happy seeing JD finally displaying the style of the modern gameflow for his match. Also taking out Lizzy is no small deal for the first ZvP victory (correct if wrong plz) of the season. GG :D
Apologies if this has already been asked/answered(it most likely has), but will there be vods posted like they were in BW? Do you need some kind of subscription?
On May 27 2012 22:17 TaShadan wrote: well skt1 and kt both failing
Considering they were the teams who transitioned to SC2 last, I can't say I'm completely surprised. Even players with godly mechanics like Flash and Bisu need time to learn game theory.
Thought the SC2 games showed a real progression on the first round of matches. 6-8 months down the line and the game really is going to take a big leap forward in terms of quality. I must admit, I enjoy the mixed format as a spectator.
Jaedong looked better last night than last week, but there were still a lot of problems people aren't really pointing out. While Jaedong did do the Stephano build, his Roach Warren was a minute late, enough to be a problem if the Toss decided to get more aggresive. Sure he scouted, but it's not hard for Toss to hide Gateways. He also didn't scout the corner of his third base, where Toss often hide Pylons; I thought the toss was going to do a 4 gate and it would have done some decent damage.
While I liked Jaedong's two pronged pressure (sniping Gateways while threatened the main protoss army), a better protoss could have easily cut his Roaches in half with force fields.
Perhaps most importantly, Jaedong didn't attempt to get ahead fast enough. Stephano and other macro zergs tend to take a fourth during their Roach pressure, and tech up depending on what happens in the battle. Jaedong took a fourth pretty late, and while he did get a Hive he didn't have any tech ready iirc. If the toss threw down a couple more gates and got two Colosus, he most likely would have won that game, Huk style off turtled two base.
There's no question Jaedong is improving (notice the good creep spread this time), I'm not 100% sold on his approach to mid/late ZvP. So far it seems like protoss are winning the most non-mirror games right now among BW players, in part because the race has so many deadly timings. Stephano and many other great zergs will be at the upcoming MLG Anaheim so Jaedong will be able to watch them up close. Should be good for him.
On May 27 2012 22:17 TaShadan wrote: well skt1 and kt both failing
Considering they were the teams who transitioned to SC2 last, I can't say I'm completely surprised. Even players with godly mechanics like Flash and Bisu need time to learn game theory.
On May 28 2012 04:07 PhoenixDark wrote: Jaedong looked better last night than last week, but there were still a lot of problems people aren't really pointing out. While Jaedong did do the Stephano build, his Roach Warren was a minute late, enough to be a problem if the Toss decided to get more aggresive. Sure he scouted, but it's not hard for Toss to hide Gateways. He also didn't scout the corner of his third base, where Toss often hide Pylons; I thought the toss was going to do a 4 gate and it would have done some decent damage.
While I liked Jaedong's two pronged pressure (sniping Gateways while threatened the main protoss army), a better protoss could have easily cut his Roaches in half with force fields.
Perhaps most importantly, Jaedong didn't attempt to get ahead fast enough. Stephano and other macro zergs tend to take a fourth during their Roach pressure, and tech up depending on what happens in the battle. Jaedong took a fourth pretty late, and while he did get a Hive he didn't have any tech ready iirc. If the toss threw down a couple more gates and got two Colosus, he most likely would have won that game, Huk style off turtled two base.
There's no question Jaedong is improving (notice the good creep spread this time), I'm not 100% sold on his approach to mid/late ZvP. So far it seems like protoss are winning the most non-mirror games right now among BW players, in part because the race has so many deadly timings. Stephano and many other great zergs will be at the upcoming MLG Anaheim so Jaedong will be able to watch them up close. Should be good for him.
I've not seen zerg battle multitask like that before in the entire GSL. 2 pronged kiting. I'm sure even better protosses might not have cut the armies in half because JD's tactic has a threat to the protoss of wasting forcefields. Noticed JD attacked when a decent amount of FF were used up. So i'm sure instead of using up time/apm/resources to expo etc, he used it to deplete FF and atk. that is much more aggressive and entertaining. Could it be taking a faster 4th after producing so much would only delay tech? JD went for a +1 air after he got hive and then teched to greater spire. I think he must have felt there was no rush atm.
Stephano might have a nice play style, builds but why does he not perform well at competitions (win)? For all his skill, he doesnt engage cost effectively and is especially sloppy player in the late game. but no doubt i'm a big fan. especially of aggressive zerg players.
On May 27 2012 22:17 TaShadan wrote: well skt1 and kt both failing
Considering they were the teams who transitioned to SC2 last, I can't say I'm completely surprised. Even players with godly mechanics like Flash and Bisu need time to learn game theory.
true but they lost alot of bw matches too
Because they also have to practice SC2. If I had to describe this season in one word, I would say that this season is: forgettable.
On May 28 2012 04:07 PhoenixDark wrote: Jaedong looked better last night than last week, but there were still a lot of problems people aren't really pointing out. While Jaedong did do the Stephano build, his Roach Warren was a minute late, enough to be a problem if the Toss decided to get more aggresive. Sure he scouted, but it's not hard for Toss to hide Gateways. He also didn't scout the corner of his third base, where Toss often hide Pylons; I thought the toss was going to do a 4 gate and it would have done some decent damage.
While I liked Jaedong's two pronged pressure (sniping Gateways while threatened the main protoss army), a better protoss could have easily cut his Roaches in half with force fields.
Perhaps most importantly, Jaedong didn't attempt to get ahead fast enough. Stephano and other macro zergs tend to take a fourth during their Roach pressure, and tech up depending on what happens in the battle. Jaedong took a fourth pretty late, and while he did get a Hive he didn't have any tech ready iirc. If the toss threw down a couple more gates and got two Colosus, he most likely would have won that game, Huk style off turtled two base.
There's no question Jaedong is improving (notice the good creep spread this time), I'm not 100% sold on his approach to mid/late ZvP. So far it seems like protoss are winning the most non-mirror games right now among BW players, in part because the race has so many deadly timings. Stephano and many other great zergs will be at the upcoming MLG Anaheim so Jaedong will be able to watch them up close. Should be good for him.
I've not seen zerg battle multitask like that before in the entire GSL. 2 pronged kiting. I'm sure even better protosses might not have cut the armies in half because JD's tactic has a threat to the protoss of wasting forcefields. Noticed JD attacked when a decent amount of FF were used up. So i'm sure instead of using up time/apm/resources to expo etc, he used it to deplete FF and atk. that is much more aggressive and entertaining. Could it be taking a faster 4th after producing so much would only delay tech? JD went for a +1 air after he got hive and then teched to greater spire. I think he must have felt there was no rush atm.
Stephano might have a nice play style, builds but why does he not perform well at competitions (win)? For all his skill, he doesnt engage cost effectively and is especially sloppy player in the late game. but no doubt i'm a big fan. especially of aggressive zerg players.
Looking forward to more BW players playing sc2
The poking micro with roaches to bait forcefields is a key part of ZvP and is standard among pros. What JD did really well was splitting his army on the fly and doing that micro on two fronts simultaneously, while keeping up perfect macro. He was also really good about targetting high-value units like immortals and sentries.
It's certainly a great sign of his rapid improvement though, as he made a real mess of the roach micro against forcefields last week. Ditto with his creep spread, which went from nonexistent to excellent.
Jaedong looked better last night than last week, but there were still a lot of problems people aren't really pointing out. While Jaedong did do the Stephano build, his Roach Warren was a minute late, enough to be a problem if the Toss decided to get more aggresive. Sure he scouted, but it's not hard for Toss to hide Gateways. He also didn't scout the corner of his third base, where Toss often hide Pylons; I thought the toss was going to do a 4 gate and it would have done some decent damage.
The information was available to know whether or not protoss could get aggressive, but the observer didn't catch it and didn't show us anything at all of what Jaedong knew or didn't know.
Lizzy took early two geysers at his natural and didn't chrono his cybercore very much, so warpgate finished 40-60 seconds too late for a scary warpgate timing, and with the early gas he wouldn't be able to afford the gateways in time for a 7:30-8:00 warp-in (even if warpgate was complete, which it wasn't). If JD scouted that, the gas timings and the roach warren were perfectly safe. If he played blind, it wasn't.
DRG regularly takes his gases and roach warren at the same times Jaedong did, when he knows he can get away with it.
Unfortunately the observer didn't show us what he knew. This is one of the things I love about the experienced GSL observers, they show us all these little details of what each player knows and what he doesn't know, even if the caster doesn't point it out. Maybe it's a different style, but it's also experience.
On May 28 2012 04:07 PhoenixDark wrote: Jaedong looked better last night than last week, but there were still a lot of problems people aren't really pointing out. While Jaedong did do the Stephano build, his Roach Warren was a minute late, enough to be a problem if the Toss decided to get more aggresive. Sure he scouted, but it's not hard for Toss to hide Gateways. He also didn't scout the corner of his third base, where Toss often hide Pylons; I thought the toss was going to do a 4 gate and it would have done some decent damage.
While I liked Jaedong's two pronged pressure (sniping Gateways while threatened the main protoss army), a better protoss could have easily cut his Roaches in half with force fields.
Perhaps most importantly, Jaedong didn't attempt to get ahead fast enough. Stephano and other macro zergs tend to take a fourth during their Roach pressure, and tech up depending on what happens in the battle. Jaedong took a fourth pretty late, and while he did get a Hive he didn't have any tech ready iirc. If the toss threw down a couple more gates and got two Colosus, he most likely would have won that game, Huk style off turtled two base.
There's no question Jaedong is improving (notice the good creep spread this time), I'm not 100% sold on his approach to mid/late ZvP. So far it seems like protoss are winning the most non-mirror games right now among BW players, in part because the race has so many deadly timings. Stephano and many other great zergs will be at the upcoming MLG Anaheim so Jaedong will be able to watch them up close. Should be good for him.
I've not seen zerg battle multitask like that before in the entire GSL. 2 pronged kiting. I'm sure even better protosses might not have cut the armies in half because JD's tactic has a threat to the protoss of wasting forcefields. Noticed JD attacked when a decent amount of FF were used up. So i'm sure instead of using up time/apm/resources to expo etc, he used it to deplete FF and atk. that is much more aggressive and entertaining. Could it be taking a faster 4th after producing so much would only delay tech? JD went for a +1 air after he got hive and then teched to greater spire. I think he must have felt there was no rush atm.
Stephano might have a nice play style, builds but why does he not perform well at competitions (win)? For all his skill, he doesnt engage cost effectively and is especially sloppy player in the late game. but no doubt i'm a big fan. especially of aggressive zerg players.
Looking forward to more BW players playing sc2
Stephano often beats top players and seems to only lose to top players too. He finishes well almost every tournament. He can compete and beat the best there are. I'm not even a huge fan of his myself but he has some serious skill.
Baiting FFs and such happens during every PvZ and his opponent was just bad. If Jaedong played one of the code a/s Protoss he would get stomped. He is likely to improve fast though and it will be interesting to see when he gets to the level of code a or code s Zergs. I have high hopes for him
Jaedong looked better last night than last week, but there were still a lot of problems people aren't really pointing out. While Jaedong did do the Stephano build, his Roach Warren was a minute late, enough to be a problem if the Toss decided to get more aggresive. Sure he scouted, but it's not hard for Toss to hide Gateways. He also didn't scout the corner of his third base, where Toss often hide Pylons; I thought the toss was going to do a 4 gate and it would have done some decent damage.
The information was available to know whether or not protoss could get aggressive, but the observer didn't catch it and didn't show us anything at all of what Jaedong knew or didn't know.
Lizzy took early two geysers at his natural and didn't chrono his cybercore very much, so warpgate finished 40-60 seconds too late for a scary warpgate timing, and with the early gas he wouldn't be able to afford the gateways in time for a 7:30-8:00 warp-in (even if warpgate was complete, which it wasn't). If JD scouted that, the gas timings and the roach warren were perfectly safe. If he played blind, it wasn't.
DRG regularly takes his gases and roach warren at the same times Jaedong did, when he knows he can get away with it.
Unfortunately the observer didn't show us what he knew. This is one of the things I love about the experienced GSL observers, they show us all these little details of what each player knows and what he doesn't know, even if the caster doesn't point it out. Maybe it's a different style, but it's also experience.
I'll be honest GSL observer (legend) is good enough that you can mute sound and he tells you the whole story of the game by highlighting everything important going on.. thats not the case with PL observer yet.
Jaedong looking much better this time round than last week. The ZvZ he lost in a very technical way I feel: for whatever reason he was unable to capitlize on his muta opening and Crazy-Hydra found a good time to move out.
The ZvP against Lizzy was very impressive considering what we saw last week, he seemed to find his stride more easily and looked far more comfortable in the MU.
I'm really pumped to see both more of him and Flash (and Zero!) in the upcoming weeks - where this Proleague suffers in quality of games, it makes up for in writing the stories of how these players grow into SC2.
I don't get that Stephano comment saying he's sloppy lategame. He's been praised several times by koreans as the best hive Zerg. Also he's the second best, of not the best ZvP in ScToo.
On May 28 2012 13:34 PhoenixDark wrote: Good point about effectively baiting force fields, although I still feel a better protoss could have punished that type of gamble.
He practices SC2 and BW at the same time, swapping between games. He's only just picked up this game and is able to mimic one of the top foreign zergs in the world while not dedicating all his practice time to this game. Give the guy some credit.
On May 28 2012 13:34 PhoenixDark wrote: Good point about effectively baiting force fields, although I still feel a better protoss could have punished that type of gamble.
He practices SC2 and BW at the same time, swapping between games. He's only just picked up this game and is able to mimic one of the top foreign zergs in the world while not fully practice this game. Give the guy some credit.
Mimic? Stephano is not even close to JD in terms of unit control. not just stephano, i haven't seen any zerg with that kinda control. JD just used a stephano build. This is JD we are talking about. His simultaneous control of his 2 armies was amazing! I'm so excited for sc2! All i've seen to date is 1A armies with the odd medivac drop, ling runby or proxy zealots/DT.
yeah all zerg's try to bait FF - in theory, but in actual doing, i've never seen it done as legitimately as JD did. something you'd go - WOW he's actually baiting those FFs so well!
its not even about whether a better protoss could've FF'd better. I think a better protoss would not have even tried to FF as the price of using them w/o a full on engagement is too costly, but that's hard to resist when the roaches keep picking off your buildings on 2 fronts.
Maybe I'm a blind fanboy, but stephano has much better control in sc2 than jaedong atm. Also, you havent watched a lot of sc2 if you've only seen a ling runby during a fight
On May 28 2012 13:34 PhoenixDark wrote: Good point about effectively baiting force fields, although I still feel a better protoss could have punished that type of gamble.
He practices SC2 and BW at the same time, swapping between games. He's only just picked up this game and is able to mimic one of the top foreign zergs in the world while not fully practice this game. Give the guy some credit.
Mimic? Stephano is not even close to JD in terms of unit control. not just stephano, i haven't seen any zerg with that kinda control. JD just used a stephano build. This is JD we are talking about. His simultaneous control of his 2 armies was amazing! I'm so excited for sc2! All i've seen to date is 1A armies with the odd medivac drop, ling runby or proxy zealots/DT.
You're a bit overexcited there :D
I know JD is a legend and that he should do very very well in sc2 in the future but for the moment he's no where near Stephano's level (as he himself admits), so please don't be over enthusiastic at FF baith (watch DRG or Stephano they do it pretty well too ^^)
On May 28 2012 13:34 PhoenixDark wrote: Good point about effectively baiting force fields, although I still feel a better protoss could have punished that type of gamble.
He practices SC2 and BW at the same time, swapping between games. He's only just picked up this game and is able to mimic one of the top foreign zergs in the world while not fully practice this game. Give the guy some credit.
Mimic? Stephano is not even close to JD in terms of unit control. not just stephano, i haven't seen any zerg with that kinda control. JD just used a stephano build. This is JD we are talking about. His simultaneous control of his 2 armies was amazing! I'm so excited for sc2! All i've seen to date is 1A armies with the odd medivac drop, ling runby or proxy zealots/DT.
You're a bit overexcited there :D
I know JD is a legend and that he should do very very well in sc2 in the future but for the moment he's no where near Stephano's level (as he himself admits), so please don't be over enthusiastic at FF baith (watch DRG or Stephano they do it pretty well too ^^)
He's not saying jd is at stephanos level gameplay wise. He's saying he's at his level mechanically. This is true, and in fact jd is far mechanically stronger than stephano. Everythng else though stephano is stronger.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/vib9H.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ugUPM.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ACzSe.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/teams/2.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/QbpHJ.png)
Team 8 vs KT Rolster![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/teams/icons/uniforms/2.png){kind=icon}
Jaehoon< Neo Ground Zero >
Ryul2< Neo Sniper Ridge >
BaBy< CloudKingdom >![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KQmps.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/MsZ4J.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1ProG.png)
at least there's still a chance they can play each other
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/R1CH/Happy2.gif)
