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On February 12 2012 09:38 Musou wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 07:38 Lightwip wrote:On February 12 2012 05:50 hellbound wrote:On February 12 2012 05:27 Lightwip wrote:On February 12 2012 04:31 Xiphos wrote:On February 12 2012 04:24 Lightwip wrote:On February 12 2012 04:17 Xiphos wrote:On February 12 2012 04:07 Hinanawi wrote:On February 12 2012 03:06 Itachii wrote:CHRIST HOW DID I MISS THIS MATCH Amazing games,  JangBi's contain break was the best break i've ever seen,  Action just couldn't do anything about it.Perfect decision making, obs defense and reaver kiting. Stork, on the other hand, had this game in the bag, you just can't fucking switch to carriers AND pay no attention to mines whatsoever.Basically, after breaking  Flash's push Stork A moved everywhere when he needed every fucking single unit because of carrier tech and low unit count.I was so disappointed, you'd expect SBG to perform better in such situations, with years of experience and amazing PvT record. Flash didn't even play that great (compared to his usual level), it was more Stork fucking up everything after 18min mark then Flash making godly comeback.Before it, he did everything he could with every unit he had, Flash's nat harass was successful but Stork responded nicely.Oh well, too bad, he just had to win this  RorO got schooled, so did HoeJJa, but Reality finished it nicely. SAMSUNG KHAN FIGHTING YES WE KHAN! Flash was never behind in that game, not for a second. Even if Stork hadn't played minesweeper with his goons the result wouldn't have changed. After Stork destroyed Flash's 1st push, he had 4 bases running with another one in contruction to Flash's three. If Stork could have NOT lost a group + of Goons and he didn't go for Carriers but instead went to add more Ground Troop (could have made another group of Zealots), Stork could have easily crushed Flash's 2nd push and taking the game. Another thing to note is that Stork dropped HTs for harass in Flash's expo which could have been used to stop the push. I really think that Stork's decision making in that game was a display of a B-teamer especially with that Reaver harass that did nothing. In the end, he could have one full group of Dragoons + potentially more ground units from adding in 3 more gateways instead of adding that fleet beacon and stargate which can produce Zealots at 4X speed of Carriers + a shuttle with Reaver + a shuttle of HTs. With THIS much units and 5th expansion coming up, Flash is in much danger. Flash could have easily shut down the 5th(and he did) and any future expansions. Stork was in no position to push anyways. A few shenanigans did not change the result. Stork lost it when he played like trash, and no cutesy reaver and carrier tricks changed that. I thought I made the point that Stork shouldn't have gone with those >.< He wouldn't have won without those anyways. So the man wrote a 173 word paragraph explaining his opinion and your retort is "You are wrong." ? -__- Yes. Because it should be obvious from the game that Flash was never in any position to win. More words do not always necessitate a longer rebuttal. Oh, dear. Your passive-aggressiveness is showing. Did you mean Stork was never in any position to win?
No, not at all.
You see, it wasn't Flash that won that game. Given the skill disparities, Stork should have and would have walked over Flash 100 times over.
But there's something that saved him from such an outcome that everyone desired.
+ Show Spoiler +
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Flash is like a machine. He takes advantage of all tech switches and his opponent's mistakes and leaves them no room to even think about victory. He is the relentless domination.
Stork wasn't playing badly. He was playing Flash.
Any other terran would have seen carrier tech and started making goliaths, then be crushed by Stork's macro. Only Flash was brilliant enough to calculate the timing down to the second and send a force with almost no AA.
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lol scout.
1 question tho. Why did stork go onto carrier tech?
wasnt it abit too much of a risk?
i reckon he would of won if he just went arbiter gateway storm sine at one point he was 5v3 bases.
was it because he saw a lot of tanks?
gratz flash abit sloppy on stork for losing so many units to mines =.=
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Ppl should understand that Stork was at a disadvantage through the whole game. Flash going 14 CC and the cliff siege where he lost nexus, 10+ probes and alot of units to deflect that attack was a huge blow. Flash even moved his units from the cliff when the damage has been done. Even with Stork being on +1 at some point in the game he had no probes to saturate his bases and with his robo constantly building tons of shuttles and reavers (which they did 0 damage to Flash economy ) he had not enough time to build more obs + probably losing the observatory in the first push.
Flash had that game from the start but Stork just hang on with superb reaver shutle control. Stork played awesome at a disadvantage against Flash who never makes any mistakes and probably his worst mistake is to go carriers against Flash at that point. Carriers never work against Flash even if you have advantage against Flash and the map is terrible for Carriers anyway. And as I explained he had no obs because his robo was building shuttles and reavers all the time which contributed to lots of goon+ zeal dying to mine fields.
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On February 12 2012 14:56 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 09:38 Musou wrote:On February 12 2012 07:38 Lightwip wrote:On February 12 2012 05:50 hellbound wrote:On February 12 2012 05:27 Lightwip wrote:On February 12 2012 04:31 Xiphos wrote:On February 12 2012 04:24 Lightwip wrote:On February 12 2012 04:17 Xiphos wrote:On February 12 2012 04:07 Hinanawi wrote:On February 12 2012 03:06 Itachii wrote:CHRIST HOW DID I MISS THIS MATCH Amazing games, JangBi's contain break was the best break i've ever seen, Action just couldn't do anything about it.Perfect decision making, obs defense and reaver kiting. Stork, on the other hand, had this game in the bag, you just can't fucking switch to carriers AND pay no attention to mines whatsoever.Basically, after breaking Flash's push Stork A moved everywhere when he needed every fucking single unit because of carrier tech and low unit count.I was so disappointed, you'd expect SBG to perform better in such situations, with years of experience and amazing PvT record. Flash didn't even play that great (compared to his usual level), it was more Stork fucking up everything after 18min mark then Flash making godly comeback.Before it, he did everything he could with every unit he had, Flash's nat harass was successful but Stork responded nicely.Oh well, too bad, he just had to win this RorO got schooled, so did HoeJJa, but Reality finished it nicely. SAMSUNG KHAN FIGHTING YES WE KHAN! Flash was never behind in that game, not for a second. Even if Stork hadn't played minesweeper with his goons the result wouldn't have changed. After Stork destroyed Flash's 1st push, he had 4 bases running with another one in contruction to Flash's three. If Stork could have NOT lost a group + of Goons and he didn't go for Carriers but instead went to add more Ground Troop (could have made another group of Zealots), Stork could have easily crushed Flash's 2nd push and taking the game. Another thing to note is that Stork dropped HTs for harass in Flash's expo which could have been used to stop the push. I really think that Stork's decision making in that game was a display of a B-teamer especially with that Reaver harass that did nothing. In the end, he could have one full group of Dragoons + potentially more ground units from adding in 3 more gateways instead of adding that fleet beacon and stargate which can produce Zealots at 4X speed of Carriers + a shuttle with Reaver + a shuttle of HTs. With THIS much units and 5th expansion coming up, Flash is in much danger. Flash could have easily shut down the 5th(and he did) and any future expansions. Stork was in no position to push anyways. A few shenanigans did not change the result. Stork lost it when he played like trash, and no cutesy reaver and carrier tricks changed that. I thought I made the point that Stork shouldn't have gone with those >.< He wouldn't have won without those anyways. So the man wrote a 173 word paragraph explaining his opinion and your retort is "You are wrong." ? -__- Yes. Because it should be obvious from the game that Flash was never in any position to win. More words do not always necessitate a longer rebuttal. Oh, dear. Your passive-aggressiveness is showing. Did you mean Stork was never in any position to win? No, not at all. You see, it wasn't Flash that won that game. Given the skill disparities, Stork should have and would have walked over Flash 100 times over. But there's something that saved him from such an outcome that everyone desired. + Show Spoiler +
No the reason is retarded carrier switch.
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On February 13 2012 03:16 Zhul wrote:Show nested quote +On February 12 2012 14:56 Lightwip wrote:On February 12 2012 09:38 Musou wrote:On February 12 2012 07:38 Lightwip wrote:On February 12 2012 05:50 hellbound wrote:On February 12 2012 05:27 Lightwip wrote:On February 12 2012 04:31 Xiphos wrote:On February 12 2012 04:24 Lightwip wrote:On February 12 2012 04:17 Xiphos wrote:On February 12 2012 04:07 Hinanawi wrote:
[quote]
Flash was never behind in that game, not for a second. Even if Stork hadn't played minesweeper with his goons the result wouldn't have changed. After Stork destroyed Flash's 1st push, he had 4 bases running with another one in contruction to Flash's three. If Stork could have NOT lost a group + of Goons and he didn't go for Carriers but instead went to add more Ground Troop (could have made another group of Zealots), Stork could have easily crushed Flash's 2nd push and taking the game. Another thing to note is that Stork dropped HTs for harass in Flash's expo which could have been used to stop the push. I really think that Stork's decision making in that game was a display of a B-teamer especially with that Reaver harass that did nothing. In the end, he could have one full group of Dragoons + potentially more ground units from adding in 3 more gateways instead of adding that fleet beacon and stargate which can produce Zealots at 4X speed of Carriers + a shuttle with Reaver + a shuttle of HTs. With THIS much units and 5th expansion coming up, Flash is in much danger. Flash could have easily shut down the 5th(and he did) and any future expansions. Stork was in no position to push anyways. A few shenanigans did not change the result. Stork lost it when he played like trash, and no cutesy reaver and carrier tricks changed that. I thought I made the point that Stork shouldn't have gone with those >.< He wouldn't have won without those anyways. So the man wrote a 173 word paragraph explaining his opinion and your retort is "You are wrong." ? -__- Yes. Because it should be obvious from the game that Flash was never in any position to win. More words do not always necessitate a longer rebuttal. Oh, dear. Your passive-aggressiveness is showing. Did you mean Stork was never in any position to win? No, not at all. You see, it wasn't Flash that won that game. Given the skill disparities, Stork should have and would have walked over Flash 100 times over. But there's something that saved him from such an outcome that everyone desired. + Show Spoiler + No the reason is retarded carrier switch.
Denial is not just a river in Africa, my friend.
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On February 13 2012 03:18 Lightwip wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 03:16 Zhul wrote:On February 12 2012 14:56 Lightwip wrote:On February 12 2012 09:38 Musou wrote:On February 12 2012 07:38 Lightwip wrote:On February 12 2012 05:50 hellbound wrote:On February 12 2012 05:27 Lightwip wrote:On February 12 2012 04:31 Xiphos wrote:On February 12 2012 04:24 Lightwip wrote:On February 12 2012 04:17 Xiphos wrote:
[quote]
After Stork destroyed Flash's 1st push, he had 4 bases running with another one in contruction to Flash's three. If Stork could have NOT lost a group + of Goons and he didn't go for Carriers but instead went to add more Ground Troop (could have made another group of Zealots), Stork could have easily crushed Flash's 2nd push and taking the game. Another thing to note is that Stork dropped HTs for harass in Flash's expo which could have been used to stop the push. I really think that Stork's decision making in that game was a display of a B-teamer especially with that Reaver harass that did nothing. In the end, he could have one full group of Dragoons + potentially more ground units from adding in 3 more gateways instead of adding that fleet beacon and stargate which can produce Zealots at 4X speed of Carriers + a shuttle with Reaver + a shuttle of HTs. With THIS much units and 5th expansion coming up, Flash is in much danger. Flash could have easily shut down the 5th(and he did) and any future expansions. Stork was in no position to push anyways. A few shenanigans did not change the result. Stork lost it when he played like trash, and no cutesy reaver and carrier tricks changed that. I thought I made the point that Stork shouldn't have gone with those >.< He wouldn't have won without those anyways. So the man wrote a 173 word paragraph explaining his opinion and your retort is "You are wrong." ? -__- Yes. Because it should be obvious from the game that Flash was never in any position to win. More words do not always necessitate a longer rebuttal. Oh, dear. Your passive-aggressiveness is showing. Did you mean Stork was never in any position to win? No, not at all. You see, it wasn't Flash that won that game. Given the skill disparities, Stork should have and would have walked over Flash 100 times over. But there's something that saved him from such an outcome that everyone desired. + Show Spoiler + No the reason is retarded carrier switch. Denial is not just a river in Africa, my friend.
Lightwip you amaze me sometimes, you know that?
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On February 13 2012 04:06 KTF_CloaK wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 03:18 Lightwip wrote:On February 13 2012 03:16 Zhul wrote:On February 12 2012 14:56 Lightwip wrote:On February 12 2012 09:38 Musou wrote:On February 12 2012 07:38 Lightwip wrote:On February 12 2012 05:50 hellbound wrote:On February 12 2012 05:27 Lightwip wrote:On February 12 2012 04:31 Xiphos wrote:On February 12 2012 04:24 Lightwip wrote:
[quote]
Flash could have easily shut down the 5th(and he did) and any future expansions. Stork was in no position to push anyways.
A few shenanigans did not change the result. Stork lost it when he played like trash, and no cutesy reaver and carrier tricks changed that. I thought I made the point that Stork shouldn't have gone with those >.< He wouldn't have won without those anyways. So the man wrote a 173 word paragraph explaining his opinion and your retort is "You are wrong." ? -__- Yes. Because it should be obvious from the game that Flash was never in any position to win. More words do not always necessitate a longer rebuttal. Oh, dear. Your passive-aggressiveness is showing. Did you mean Stork was never in any position to win? No, not at all. You see, it wasn't Flash that won that game. Given the skill disparities, Stork should have and would have walked over Flash 100 times over. But there's something that saved him from such an outcome that everyone desired. + Show Spoiler + No the reason is retarded carrier switch. Denial is not just a river in Africa, my friend. Lightwip you amaze me sometimes, you know that?
Be nice to him, it hurts him that SKT isn't half as good as he thinks they are.
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On February 13 2012 04:08 Fishmalk wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 04:06 KTF_CloaK wrote:On February 13 2012 03:18 Lightwip wrote:On February 13 2012 03:16 Zhul wrote:On February 12 2012 14:56 Lightwip wrote:On February 12 2012 09:38 Musou wrote:On February 12 2012 07:38 Lightwip wrote:On February 12 2012 05:50 hellbound wrote:On February 12 2012 05:27 Lightwip wrote:On February 12 2012 04:31 Xiphos wrote:
[quote]
I thought I made the point that Stork shouldn't have gone with those >.< He wouldn't have won without those anyways. So the man wrote a 173 word paragraph explaining his opinion and your retort is "You are wrong." ? -__- Yes. Because it should be obvious from the game that Flash was never in any position to win. More words do not always necessitate a longer rebuttal. Oh, dear. Your passive-aggressiveness is showing. Did you mean Stork was never in any position to win? No, not at all. You see, it wasn't Flash that won that game. Given the skill disparities, Stork should have and would have walked over Flash 100 times over. But there's something that saved him from such an outcome that everyone desired. + Show Spoiler + No the reason is retarded carrier switch. Denial is not just a river in Africa, my friend. Lightwip you amaze me sometimes, you know that? Be nice to him, it hurts him that Bisu isn't half as good as he thinks he is.
Fixed
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I think Lightwip's point is that Flash is so awesome that it's impossible to screw up playing against him, because you were going to lose anyway.
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Stork definitely screwed himself. Taking the lead then using carrier ceremony to bm Flash. His unit micro isn't good for the whole game, should have use land forces instead. In all the games that he has beaten Flash in the past is cuz of zeal/dragoon. Beating Flash nowadays require perfect micro and macro, Stork wasn't even decent in the micro department except for the break push which he is most comfortable in PvT. He shoulda played standard to be more efficient since Flash is always a greedy player who is good at protecting his initial units to take 3 bases. He will get the chance to expand 4th and take on Flash at 130 food. Its better this way, he wins the first battle he wins.
Flash lost a lot of units in that push, Stork's gateways and 4th are up already when the break push ended.
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On February 13 2012 05:01 Baddieko wrote:
Stork definitely screwed himself. Taking the lead then using carrier ceremony to bm Flash.
lol
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On February 13 2012 05:19 Kyuukyuu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 05:01 Baddieko wrote:
Stork definitely screwed himself. Taking the lead then using carrier ceremony to bm Flash. lol
From a certain point of view, it's the only explanation that makes sense... 
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Why people still thinks Stork was ahead at some point of the game.
He had no advantage at all. When he cleared the push, Flash still had supply advantage (80 vs 103). Strok's 4º was satured but Flash's 3º too. And 5º was half-warping, and then was denied. Stork had no lead.
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Seriously, Stork was behind throughout whole game as numerous people pointed out. Breaking that push let him stay in the game but that wasn't a win it or lose it push. Carriers or not he was doomed. He had no map control so how was he supposed to defend his bases at that point? And was behind in supply in PvT...
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The first push Flash sent out was traded very very efficiently by Flash. Although many tanks were lost, huge amounts of zealots and goons were also lost too. From my point of view, he used about 16 tanks and 12 vultures that wiped Stork's ground army. The push was designed to thin out his forces while he had the macro upper-hand, this then made Stork's line of defense very small across his 4-5 bases.
TBH, he never mined anything out of (5th) 3 o'clock expo, he only had 3-4 bases running at most.
In hindsight, only way I could see Stork winning was to give up his own natural straight away when Flash dropped 2 tanks there and go for Flash's base with what he had (Shuttle, 2 zeals, about 6 goons, reaver inc). Flash EMPTIED his base, he literally had no units (at most 2 tanks coming out, and delayed vulture upgrades).
I really don't know how anyone is gonna beat Flash. A player might have equal or better micro/macro than Flash, but it's his anticipation (and leaving a random unit at a key spot) that will outwit his opponent, almost like he's telling the opponent what build to use lol.
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On February 13 2012 08:55 Zariel wrote:
The first push Flash sent out was traded very very efficiently by Flash. Although many tanks were lost, huge amounts of zealots and goons were also lost too. From my point of view, he used about 16 tanks and 12 vultures that wiped Stork's ground army. The push was designed to thin out his forces while he had the macro upper-hand, this then made Stork's line of defense very small across his 4-5 bases.
TBH, he never mined anything out of (5th) 3 o'clock expo, he only had 3-4 bases running at most.
In hindsight, only way I could see Stork winning was to give up his own natural straight away when Flash dropped 2 tanks there and go for Flash's base with what he had (Shuttle, 2 zeals, about 6 goons, reaver inc). Flash EMPTIED his base, he literally had no units (at most 2 tanks coming out, and delayed vulture upgrades).
I really don't know how anyone is gonna beat Flash. A player might have equal or better micro/macro than Flash, but it's his anticipation (and leaving a random unit at a key spot) that will outwit his opponent, almost like he's telling the opponent what build to use lol.
Sometimes Flash just suddenly loses to something like a bad early TvT engagement, if I had to put my guess on where his first loss will come from it would be from TvT.
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On February 13 2012 10:48 Hinanawi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2012 08:55 Zariel wrote:
The first push Flash sent out was traded very very efficiently by Flash. Although many tanks were lost, huge amounts of zealots and goons were also lost too. From my point of view, he used about 16 tanks and 12 vultures that wiped Stork's ground army. The push was designed to thin out his forces while he had the macro upper-hand, this then made Stork's line of defense very small across his 4-5 bases.
TBH, he never mined anything out of (5th) 3 o'clock expo, he only had 3-4 bases running at most.
In hindsight, only way I could see Stork winning was to give up his own natural straight away when Flash dropped 2 tanks there and go for Flash's base with what he had (Shuttle, 2 zeals, about 6 goons, reaver inc). Flash EMPTIED his base, he literally had no units (at most 2 tanks coming out, and delayed vulture upgrades).
I really don't know how anyone is gonna beat Flash. A player might have equal or better micro/macro than Flash, but it's his anticipation (and leaving a random unit at a key spot) that will outwit his opponent, almost like he's telling the opponent what build to use lol. Sometimes Flash just suddenly loses to something like a bad early TvT engagement, if I had to put my guess on where his first loss will come from it would be from TvT.
Stork has better macro than Flash. He might have won if he had just keep army trading, and then gain the upper hand on economy. And having a food advantage isn't the whole story. Vultures cost 75 min and is 2 food while goons are 2 food and cost 125 min and 50 gas. (The record in terms of cost/food goes to devouver which is 2 food and 250 min/150 gas). Flash had a lot of vultures, while Stork's army was goon heavy. Thus, IMO, after the first push , they were even.
But Flash was just the better player and outplayed Stork.
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Stork could have won with standard tactics after breaking the initial push, but at that point it wasn't more than fairly even, and Flash being Flash and not having taken much damage was probably still favored. The scout only came out because he had already started teching up - way too early, as it turned out - after losing his nat he was basically going 2-base carrier. I'm still half convinced it was nothing more than a "lol I'm a scout" anti-ceremony.
Of course, it's unquestionable that he lost the game completely because of terrible goon control and might have held on longer without that: but also Stork never adjusted his "plan" (backup plan?) so it's hard to say what might have happened. Stork's crisis micro is brilliant, but strategically he screwed up hugely.
Also wtf nobody has better macro than Flash except maybe BeSt on a good day.
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EPT
