EPTSo if you no longer want to hear me speak on the subject I suggest stop you're lame comments towards me and I won't feel the need to post any further rebuttals
sGs C Ranks Open - Page 17
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johny23
United States175 Posts
So if you no longer want to hear me speak on the subject I suggest stop you're lame comments towards me and I won't feel the need to post any further rebuttals | ||
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Jealous
10152 Posts
On January 28 2012 08:18 johny23 wrote: You're entire statement is the same thing as saying. I don't care if you know how to play all three races. We're not going to allow you to get the full benefit of that sorry. If anyone would of been man enough to say that there wouldn't be a problem. The issue is when it comes under the guise of fairness and how "its not fair to people who only play one race". Yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. I don't care. You can play random if you want, who is stopping you? Then you can show us just how manly you are (a laughable standard, by the way). The reason it's unfair is not because we won't know what race we're playing, which would be the case in random, it's because you want to race-pick against certain players and make this fact known at a later time than you yourself know their race. This is clearly a disadvantage to your opponents. By the way, skill is not the addition of your 3 race abilities combined, it's your ability regardless of what race you choose. The fact that you think you are somehow better than other people who are of approximately the same skill level as you, or more 'manly' or whatever you want to use to describe it, is pretentiously hilarious. Manner up. | ||
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johny23
United States175 Posts
On January 28 2012 08:18 Jealous wrote: Did you read what I said? I don't even care about you or what race you play. I was referring to the people who whined before you, the same people you complained about. Now, you made it personal, and you also tried to set up a pity party for yourself as well, so you're no better than the aforementioned people in my eyes. I don't need anything, that's the point. I haven't made any requests here. You have. How you can say "I'm not asking anyone to do anything," is beyond me, considering that's all you've done for the past few pages, referring to how rules are in this or that tournament as back-up and scapegoating whiners for the logical decisions made by the administrator. Tough luck, sorry that you can't racepick your way through this tournament and will have to *gasp* actually play a definite match-up vs each race, ensuring equality for all. Once again I ALREADY PM'ED MY RACES TO THE TOURNEY DIRECTOR. That part is over with. My comments are towards your smart ass comments and lack of comprehension of how restricting someone is totally different then me asking to please not be restricted. Also people will go watch 100 pro replays and copy builds down the the last probe/scv and you wan't me to believe that's more of a quality game then players making up their own builds and *gasp* using their own brain? | ||
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Jealous
10152 Posts
On January 28 2012 08:29 johny23 wrote: Once again I ALREADY PM'ED MY RACES TO THE TOURNEY DIRECTOR. That part is over with. My comments are towards your smart ass comments and lack of comprehension of how restricting someone is totally different then me asking to please not be restricted. Also people will go watch 100 pro replays and copy builds down the the last probe/scv and you wan't me to believe that's more of a quality game then players making up their own builds and *gasp* using their own brain? So you're saying you already decided to follow the rules, but after that you decided you would come into the thread to publicly whine about it? Okay. Oh and you also think that you can come up with better builds than progamers, or that anything you do come up with hasn't already been done in the past? Okay. | ||
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SlowBullets
United States839 Posts
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johny23
United States175 Posts
On January 28 2012 08:32 Jealous wrote: So you're saying you already decided to follow the rules, but after that you decided you would come into the thread to publicly whine about it? Okay. Oh and you also think that you can come up with better builds than progamers, or that anything you do come up with hasn't already been done in the past? Okay. The explanation to the people asking for set match ups in this STRATEGY game(therefore limiting the strategy I might add) was under the guise of fairness. It had nothing to do with fairness. It's what they wanted, it's now less fair to the majority of race pickers. OK so it's the rules. There's more people who play a single race then not so fair enough. I don't mind following the rules. I mind the people that were ok with pretending why the rules were set. It's really that simple. | ||
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johny23
United States175 Posts
On January 28 2012 08:39 GasMaskSociety wrote: This is Shimy's tourney. You follow his rules, simple. I do not understand what is so hard about that. Ok, I'd now like to ask you whats so hard to understand. Considering I've already stated multiple that I've already followed the rules and sent my three match ups to the tourney director. I am following the rules. Have you ever heard of principal? Yes my comments were made on pure principal. I am done explaining this as obviously everyone here only knows of making comments for selfish reasons. Apparently can't even grasp that a comment would be made that has no relation to any monetary or self worldly gain. | ||
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SlowBullets
United States839 Posts
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johny23
United States175 Posts
On January 28 2012 08:45 GasMaskSociety wrote: Then stop bitching. I'd now like to ask again what's so hard to understand. I wanted to clearly state why the rules were made and not let anyone get away with pretending. I think I've accomplished my goals so I will honor your request. However, if someone still doesn't get it and wants to post further smart ass comments I will be forced to post a rebuttal. | ||
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Jealous
10152 Posts
Shimy, can you add a rule that says that in this thread people can't whine and try to push their subjective standards of fairness onto others, while ignoring simple concepts such as mutual knowledge of match-up? I think it would benefit everyone. | ||
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1004
United States104 Posts
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Jealous
10152 Posts
On January 28 2012 08:45 johny23 wrote: Ok, I'd now like to ask you whats so hard to understand. Considering I've already stated multiple that I've already followed the rules and sent my three match ups to the tourney director. I am following the rules. Have you ever heard of principal? Yes my comments were made on pure principal. I am done explaining this as obviously everyone here only knows of making comments for selfish reasons. Apparently can't even grasp that a comment would be made that has no relation to any monetary or self worldly gain. What's hard to understand is the following: Imagine you challenge a person to a duel. You both have the option of bringing a sword, a spear, or a maul. Now imagine that there exists a rule that says that you have to let the other person know what weapon you will bring, so that you both may devise counter-strategies. Alternately, you can choose to have a weapon picked at random for you right before the duel, and your opponent would be made aware of this choice. Now, you've decided that these rules were unfair (part 1 of difficult to understand) and decide that it would be MORE fair if you had the option of not letting your opponent know what you chose until you feel like it, all while knowing the entire time what weapon he will have. So, for example, he chose to bring a sword. You know he chose to bring a sword. So, you think about it some, and you show up to the fight with a spear, having had a little under a week to prepare in spear vs. sword fighting. The opponent on the other hand has had no idea what the fuck will happen, and is therefore forced to practice against all three weapons equally. This, you feel, is ultimately fair (part 2 of hard to understand). NOTE: This is wholly different from the 'weapon gets assigned to you at random the day of the fight' because you would ALSO have to practice with all three weapons against his declared sword class. In YOUR proposed scenario, you can merrily practice only spear vs. sword, while he practices sword vs. everything. FFS. | ||
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tryummm
774 Posts
On January 28 2012 08:29 johny23 wrote: Once again I ALREADY PM'ED MY RACES TO THE TOURNEY DIRECTOR. That part is over with. My comments are towards your smart ass comments and lack of comprehension of how restricting someone is totally different then me asking to please not be restricted. Also people will go watch 100 pro replays and copy builds down the the last probe/scv and you wan't me to believe that's more of a quality game then players making up their own builds and *gasp* using their own brain? Learning how to play standard is far more than 'copying builds down.' And basing a build off worker counts is a ridiculous idea since players are constantly losing workers or making small adjustments that may alter their worker counts. Moreover, in professional VODs its very difficult to know the precise worker counts and the timings that players cut workers in all cases. And there are very few replays from the current BW professional metagame in circulation (All replays prior to the Circuit Breaker, La Mancha, Bloody Ridge, etc...map pack are outdated). So I don't think it would be very effective to get information from replays, since there really aren't any good replays that are available for the public. Moreover, when you say you 'Make up your own builds' I presume you are implying that you play aggressively which also implies you are hoping you don't get scouted so that you can get a cheap win. When players use aggressive builds they tend to be referred to as surprise builds or cheese builds because they are dependent on being unscouted or dependent on an opponent not reacting properly and thereby providing the aggressive player with a quick and easy win, even if the aggressive player isn't as good as the passive player. And learning how to execute standard play along with learning how to adapt to beating aggressive play does require brains, thinking, logic, reason, etc... Now if you are 'making up your own build' and attempting to play passively, you are going to lose. The current meta game was developed by the most brilliant Starcraft players in the world and has been vigorously redefined for a long time (I don't want to say for the extent of SC's life since there was very little skill development in the early years of SC). Its ridiculous to presume an individual should come up with the same conclusions as hundreds of thousands of hours of vigorous study and experimentation by the professional players and coaches if learning the game by themselves or among a group of equally ignorant players. Do you think its an accident there is such a large skill gap between Korean pro gamers (And even Korean Amateurs) and non Korean players? Well, statistics would tell us its no accident. Professional players constantly refer to other players and their coaching staffs to better understand the current meta game, to refine builds (SKT1 players and Flash talk about this all the time), and to make adjustments to poor decision making in tournament games. And to imply you are smarter or more strategically equipped than professional players is a frivolous argument. So no, you are not necessarily a smarter, more creative, or more intuitive player than people who choose to learn and implement the standard meta game and build orders into their games. Now, I'm not saying that it will make a difference if you race pick and I'm not attempting to argue that your opponents will have very refined mechanics. In fact, even if the players did have refined mechanics the games are pretty much all played on back to back days so there wouldn't be enough time to prepare anyways. But the statement you made about standard users is condescending to how much work it takes to learn the SC meta game and to be able to apply it in a rather cheesy environment like iCCup or lower ranked Fish games. Its not easy to do, its not mindless, and in my opinion, it is more difficult that making up your own aggressive builds and hoping your opponent doesn't know how to handle it. | ||
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johny23
United States175 Posts
On January 28 2012 08:57 Jealous wrote: What's hard to understand is the following: Imagine you challenge a person to a duel. You both have the option of bringing a sword, a spear, or a maul. Now imagine that there exists a rule that says that you have to let the other person know what weapon you will bring, so that you both may devise counter-strategies. Alternately, you can choose to have a weapon picked at random for you right before the duel, and your opponent would be made aware of this choice. Now, you've decided that these rules were unfair (part 1 of difficult to understand) and decide that it would be MORE fair if you had the option of not letting your opponent know what you chose until you feel like it, all while knowing the entire time what weapon he will have. So, for example, he chose to bring a sword. You know he chose to bring a sword. So, you think about it some, and you show up to the fight with a spear, having had a little under a week to prepare in spear vs. sword fighting. The opponent on the other hand has had no idea what the fuck will happen, and is therefore forced to practice against all three weapons equally. This, you feel, is ultimately fair (part 2 of hard to understand). NOTE: This is wholly different from the 'weapon gets assigned to you at random the day of the fight' because you would ALSO have to practice with all three weapons against his declared sword class. In YOUR proposed scenario, you can merrily practice only spear vs. sword, while he practices sword vs. everything. FFS. ITS A TOURNAMENT DUDE. You completely ignore this point: Someone know hows to use all three weapons sword, spear and a maul. He knows in round one his spear will work best vs his opponents sword so he wins. However round two he is now forced to use his spear vs his opponents sword even though he knows his maul would work best. So now even though he trained for all three weapons he only gets to use one of them. All because the person who only knows one weapon talked the king into making him use that weapon for the rest of the tournament. | ||
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Jealous
10152 Posts
On January 28 2012 09:03 johny23 wrote: ITS A TOURNAMENT DUDE. You completely ignore this point: Someone know hows to use all three weapons sword, spear and a maul. He knows in round one his spear will work best vs his opponents sword so he wins. However round two he is now forced to use his spear vs his opponents sword even though he knows his maul would work best. So now even though he trained for all three weapons he only gets to use one of them. All because the person who only knows one weapon talked the king into making him use that weapon for the rest of the tournament. For this approach to be valid, you would have to state from the start what weapon you would use vs. every player in the tournament for it to be fair. Otherwise, that information will be unfairly withheld from your potential opponent, whereas you already know what his weapon choice is. You think this is fair? | ||
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johny23
United States175 Posts
On January 28 2012 09:05 Jealous wrote: EDIT: I give up, sorry. You failed to realize there's two sides of the argument which I was waiting for you to do. This is why you get grouped in with the others. You either think or act like the only "right" and "fair" decision is to obviously make multi-race players pre-pick their match ups. Never once did you acknowledge the point of restrictions being placed on the multi-race players. I did however state that there's more single race players therefore it makes sense that the majority won and they get the advantage. | ||
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CobaltBlu
United States919 Posts
If you're going to play random play random. When the organizer gives you two weeks to prepare It should be pretty simple to understand why your opponent would like to have equal opportunity to know who he is playing during this time. Starcraft isn't a sword fight. | ||
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johny23
United States175 Posts
After that you will have less then 24 hours to "practice" or come up with builds. You won't even know your opponent until then. So now instead of me saying oh I'd like to play "ZvZ" against this guy. I now don't have that option. For what? So someone has an extra 3-4 hours of knowing my race ahead of time? How will they prepare now? They don't even know they're facing me! LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL | ||
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johny23
United States175 Posts
On January 28 2012 09:14 CobaltBlu wrote: Dude it's the tournament rules just deal with it. If you're going to play random play random. When the organizer gives you two weeks to prepare It should be pretty simple to understand why your opponent would like to have equal opportunity to know who he is playing during this time. Starcraft isn't a sword fight. You guys must be trolling me now. #1 I WASNT THE ONE THAT STARTED THE SWORD ANALOGY I ONLY CONTINUED IT TO COUNTER HIS POINT LOL. #2 You only have two weeks to prepare for the PRE-TOURNY GROUP BRACKETS!!! After that you will have less then 24 hours to prepare for RO16 and then without a doubt less then 24 hours to prepare for RO8. So you're denying me being able to pick different races vs different players so that someone can have maybe at max an extra 3-4 hours to prepare. Prepare what? more practice time? They will still know my race prior to playing me. What will an extra 3-4hours to (ASSUMING they can even log on and practice prior to the tourney starting) really do? | ||
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Jealous
10152 Posts
On January 28 2012 09:12 johny23 wrote: You failed to realize there's two sides of the argument which I was waiting for you to do. This is why you get grouped in with the others. You either think or act like the only "right" and "fair" decision is to obviously make multi-race players pre-pick their match ups. Never once did you acknowledge the point of restrictions being placed on the multi-race players. I did however state that there's more single race players therefore it makes sense that the majority won and they get the advantage. No, I failed to realize that I was dealing with a person who either a) has no objective sense of fairness or b) has no ability to understand math (1 week of prep time is more than 6 days of prep time, 24 hours is more than 20, and timezones also come into play... also, what would be the cut-off point at which you would be DQ'd for not sending your race pick on time? is that up to you to decide as well?). Although, I guess it's my fault for not realizing this after you decided that your made-up builds were better than pro builds and that it's anything but socially abhorrent to come into a thread just to cry about rules that you CHOSE to follow (as in, no one forced you to follow). | ||
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