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[SPL] Grand Finals: SK Telecom T1 vs KT Rolster - Page 398

Forum Index > Brood War Tournaments
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VioRem
Profile Joined July 2011
Australia14 Posts
August 20 2011 02:01 GMT
#7941
almost exactly 50-50 votes for each team :L
hmmm...
Profile Joined March 2011
632 Posts
August 20 2011 02:04 GMT
#7942
coach park should have trained bisu instead of best to prepare against flash. since bisu's vZ is so good anyway, he could have just focused on vT. oh well, what do i know.
erin[go]bragh
Profile Joined December 2008
United States815 Posts
August 20 2011 02:05 GMT
#7943
Great finals. Ended 4-3, down to the wire, just the way it should!

SKT got the best possible matches they could have hoped for, it just didn't go their way. I hope Best doesn't take it too hard- especially considering he just came out of that bad slump.

Personally, I would have gone for Bisu in the ace match. In such a high pressure situation, I think Bisu could have kept his cool and played a little more crisp thanks to the momentum he's had all season. But hey, Park is a coach, and I'm not, so what do I know. I think it would have been extra epic to see such a final showdown between the two super-aces, and arguably the two best players in BW right now.

Either way, great games, just what I hoped for in a finals. Better luck next year SKT! Now I just hope my boy Kim Taek Yong can continue his momentum and rock the MSL. After performing so phenomenally this proleague season, it wouldn't feel right if he didn't have SOME kind of 1st place trophy to show for it.

GG KT, GG SKT, and grats to Flash and the KT Coach! A lot of people on KT, (like Violet) will surely be energized by this win, and they certainly deserve it. I hope the SKT fans don't beat themselves up too much, you guys played a hell of a season.
JulyZerg! by.hero, effOrt, KTY.
GolemMadness
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Canada11044 Posts
August 20 2011 02:08 GMT
#7944
On August 20 2011 10:43 Keone wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2011 09:37 GolemMadness wrote:
Gotta feel kinda bad for Best, having to play Flash twice.

Not at all.

I am 100% positive that Best was training JUST to snipe Flash. Why else would he be sent out in ACE? I'm pretty sure SKT coaches got exactly what they wanted... they just couldn't make it work in the actual games.


Obviously he knew he'd play Flash, that's not what I meant.
http://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=FLABREZU
Reuental
Profile Joined July 2009
United States457 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-20 02:10:29
August 20 2011 02:10 GMT
#7945
I still can't fathom why people think that Best is so good vs flash. Best is only good vs Flash is flash does his typical standard strats and lets him get 80 gateways. Flash with preparation will just bitch slap Best every time. Bisu is the only real viable option they could of thrown against flash and they failed to do so hoping that Flash would play a standard game and let Best do whatever he wants. Best is good at 1 specific situation and Flash is way better than Best in any other situation.
I'm a Crab made of men.
moopie
Profile Joined July 2009
12605 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-20 02:25:54
August 20 2011 02:20 GMT
#7946
On August 20 2011 11:01 VioRem wrote:
almost exactly 50-50 votes for each team :L

Thats only for the OP poll. People voting on visible polls on TL like to even things out for hype: KT/SKT, Flash/JD, etc.

The LB tells a different story :/

[image loading]
I'm going to sleep, let me get some of that carpet.
KRaver
Profile Joined February 2010
Canada1264 Posts
August 20 2011 02:37 GMT
#7947
Loved the last match such amazing dominance from (T)Flash

W00t W00t ~!
Duo Maxwell: If you're joking that's just cruel, but if you're being sarcastic, that's even worse.
Womwomwom
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
5930 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-20 02:57:46
August 20 2011 02:46 GMT
#7948
On August 20 2011 11:10 Reuental wrote:
I still can't fathom why people think that Best is so good vs flash. Best is only good vs Flash is flash does his typical standard strats and lets him get 80 gateways. Flash with preparation will just bitch slap Best every time. Bisu is the only real viable option they could of thrown against flash and they failed to do so hoping that Flash would play a standard game and let Best do whatever he wants. Best is good at 1 specific situation and Flash is way better than Best in any other situation.


I've been saying this for a long time. So long Flash does something besides ultra conservative and defensive strategies, he will smash Best because Best isn't well rounded enough. Didn't expect Flash to win this easily though, he never wins straight 200/200 macro games against Best - you can say he won NATE MSL game 2 but that had Flash aggressively rushing Best within the first 10 minutes.

I can understand why they picked Best though. I suppose they believed Best's confidence in the matchup would allow him to beat Flash on a large map geared towards macrofests. Its unfortunate that Best lost against Flash previously since that probably did a number on his fragile ego.

While they could have sent Fantasy or Bisu, I doubt they exclusively practiced PvT like Best did and I believe Best was always going to be the ace choice for SKT. Its a bit hard to ask Bisu or Fantasy to play a fairly unprepared game against a prepared Flash for obvious reasons (you are going to lose).
Black[CAT]
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Malaysia2589 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-20 02:51:11
August 20 2011 02:50 GMT
#7949
KT is best SKT, just saying ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
You mean ESPORTS isnt a synonym for SC2? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ -Proud owner of a Filco Majestouch 2 with Cherry Blue Switches- BW or SC2? Why not both?
rabidch
Profile Joined January 2010
United States20289 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-20 02:56:44
August 20 2011 02:56 GMT
#7950
so... are the bisu fans the ones complaining about coach parks decision on choosing best for the ace match, because they must be pretty weak SKT fans





yeah i know bisus a stronger player than best, just rubbing it in
LiquidDota StaffOnly a true king can play the King.
mnesthes
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
5433 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-20 03:07:42
August 20 2011 03:06 GMT
#7951
Where are all the "SKT is best KT" guys at
+ Show Spoiler +
still trying to get this to 400 pages even though the games ended nearly 30 pages ago
<+LighTofHeaveN> Ppl call this "Indigo Children"
Vazze
Profile Joined August 2009
Sweden279 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-20 03:07:33
August 20 2011 03:06 GMT
#7952
On August 20 2011 10:42 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2011 09:51 kdgns wrote:
On August 20 2011 09:24 moopie wrote:
On August 20 2011 09:19 Vazze wrote:
On August 20 2011 08:54 Toadily wrote:
I just realized that it should've been 6-1 if roo somehow didn't completely fail after those initial zerglings and action actually made some units especially lurkers, even 2 lurkers would've been completely enough to hold that push and be so far ahead on econ that it would've been impossible to lose

It could've been 4-0 for SKT if Hoejjas didn't decide to cheese.
Placing that hatch on his third made s2 go defensive because he didnt scout 12 hatch and went gas before pool.

huh?
1) HoeJJa didn't cheese
2) s2's overgas opening didn't at all depend on HoeJJa. His overlord was still in the middle of the map when he put the gas and pool down. The location of HoeJJa's expo did buy HoeJJa a few seconds of keeping s2 in the dark once s2's overlord arrived, but when it reached HoeJJa's main he knew there was another hatch.

+ Show Spoiler [vod] +


1) HoeJJa did cheese, in zvz, hidden hatch outside of nat is pretty much cheese
2) the cheese actually backfired due to the overgas because it created 2 spots for s2 to attack with his mutas and lings, s2 simply didnt choose to abuse that fact by pushing the multiple fronts, which is an unforced error that ultimately cost him the game.


Maybe if the hatch is in your opponent's main it's cheese. When it's at another base entirely to gather resources? Not so much.

From what i've heard, the definition of cheese is a strategy that works if unscouted and backfires when scouted.
Had Hoejja placed his hatch in his main, s2 would've sent out his lings to pressure.
The hatch was placed in his 3rd and therefore was not scouted by s2's first overlord.
s2 is then forced to block his choke because he expects 12pool/9pool which means he has inferior amounts of lings.

Not to mention that had the hatch been scouted early it would've been harder to defend it
(not that it would happen though)

Edit: Spelling
Jung Myung Hoon and Doh Jae Wook fan!
Winechu
Profile Joined May 2011
Singapore1186 Posts
August 20 2011 03:08 GMT
#7953
On August 20 2011 11:10 Reuental wrote:
I still can't fathom why people think that Best is so good vs flash. Best is only good vs Flash is flash does his typical standard strats and lets him get 80 gateways. Flash with preparation will just bitch slap Best every time. Bisu is the only real viable option they could of thrown against flash and they failed to do so hoping that Flash would play a standard game and let Best do whatever he wants. Best is good at 1 specific situation and Flash is way better than Best in any other situation.


Prior to this series, Best had a winning record against Flash. He's the closest player to being a "Flash sniper" there is, other than JD. Best delivered most of the time this season when he was tasked to face Flash. Why wouldn't the coach trust him for the job this time either? The only reason Bisu and Fanta would be a better pick was if Flash wasn't the guaranteed ace for KT. But Flash was sent so given that situation, it was the best decision SKT could've made. Why are people making it out as if Bisu is the clear cut best pick? He isn't, in fact even Fantasy would've stood a better chance imo.
Kira Yamato
Profile Joined August 2011
Vietnam5 Posts
August 20 2011 03:10 GMT
#7954
200/200 Mechball is something immortal, especially when it's Flash. His tactics and positions is just too good, remember how he EMP all Best's arbiter, like he knows that arbiters will fly to thess places. And I think that Best can just expand, build thousands gates, expand, reach limit and roll Flash all the time. If he want to win Flash in a macro war, he should atk when supply is 170/150 or something like that. 200 supply toss cant win 200 supply terran, and it seem that terran always reforce faster than toss, I dont know why cause I'm just a noob . And upgrade, when Flash push out, his upgrade is 2-1, and it's able to blow up toss army with Vessels, meanwhile Best upgrade is only 1-0-0 at that time ==!
TwoToneTerran
Profile Joined March 2009
United States8841 Posts
August 20 2011 03:28 GMT
#7955
On August 20 2011 12:06 Vazze wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2011 10:42 TwoToneTerran wrote:
On August 20 2011 09:51 kdgns wrote:
On August 20 2011 09:24 moopie wrote:
On August 20 2011 09:19 Vazze wrote:
On August 20 2011 08:54 Toadily wrote:
I just realized that it should've been 6-1 if roo somehow didn't completely fail after those initial zerglings and action actually made some units especially lurkers, even 2 lurkers would've been completely enough to hold that push and be so far ahead on econ that it would've been impossible to lose

It could've been 4-0 for SKT if Hoejjas didn't decide to cheese.
Placing that hatch on his third made s2 go defensive because he didnt scout 12 hatch and went gas before pool.

huh?
1) HoeJJa didn't cheese
2) s2's overgas opening didn't at all depend on HoeJJa. His overlord was still in the middle of the map when he put the gas and pool down. The location of HoeJJa's expo did buy HoeJJa a few seconds of keeping s2 in the dark once s2's overlord arrived, but when it reached HoeJJa's main he knew there was another hatch.

+ Show Spoiler [vod] +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykBbi-K0oJc


1) HoeJJa did cheese, in zvz, hidden hatch outside of nat is pretty much cheese
2) the cheese actually backfired due to the overgas because it created 2 spots for s2 to attack with his mutas and lings, s2 simply didnt choose to abuse that fact by pushing the multiple fronts, which is an unforced error that ultimately cost him the game.


Maybe if the hatch is in your opponent's main it's cheese. When it's at another base entirely to gather resources? Not so much.

From what i've heard, the definition of cheese is a strategy that works if unscouted and backfires when scouted.
Had Hoejja placed his hatch in his main, s2 would've sent out his lings to pressure.
The hatch was placed in his 3rd and therefore was not scouted by s2's first overlord.
s2 is then forced to block his choke because he expects 12pool/9pool which means he has inferior amounts of lings.

Not to mention that had the hatch been scouted early it would've been harder to defend it
(not that it would happen though)

Edit: Spelling


Almost every cheese ever involves a blind build meant to attack your opponent -- the most notorious cheeses are things like proxy buildings or 4pools or the like. Your definition is far to broad and basically encompasses EVERY single early game build that has a modicum of risk to it. 12 hatch is very, very common in ZvZ -- the positioning did not matter that much as S2 was rushing lair anyhow. The idea of changing your expansion is so a 9pool doesn't instantly research speed or send lings out -- it's not a blind risky strategy, it's literally just something meant to defuse one of the main counters to 12 hatch. There's absolutely, 100% nothing cheesey about it.
Remember Violet.
nodnod
Profile Joined April 2011
New Zealand172 Posts
August 20 2011 03:37 GMT
#7956
On August 20 2011 10:43 Keone wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2011 09:37 GolemMadness wrote:
Gotta feel kinda bad for Best, having to play Flash twice.

Not at all.

I am 100% positive that Best was training JUST to snipe Flash. Why else would he be sent out in ACE? I'm pretty sure SKT coaches got exactly what they wanted... they just couldn't make it work in the actual games.


Totally agree. Best gets paid to perform, but he didn't deliver, simple as that.
TheGlassface
Profile Joined November 2010
United States612 Posts
August 20 2011 03:56 GMT
#7957
lol @ all the BeSt bashers. Silly fair weather fans. I wonder how many SKT fans are even fans of anyone besides Bisu on that team.
That kid played his ass off.
Flash is too damn good at this game.
I just got done watching the series and that final ace match was so intense. You could tell BeSt wanted nothing more than to win and he was doing somewhat of a decent job until that push started. It just...never...stopped. The GG timing was something awful but he was trying so hard with every last little unit he could snag.
I can't believe Flash is injured and still plays like that.
KT deserved that trophy, every bit of the way. Especially having to overcome Action and Roo's fucking pathetic showings.

GG again KT fans, you guys have a great year.
Next year, we'll be seeing you.
Lol, maybe we'll have the final boss next time.
The mystery of life is not a problem to solve, but a reality to experience. **Hang in there STX fans!! Kal Hwaiting!**
Lebesgue
Profile Joined October 2008
4542 Posts
August 20 2011 04:33 GMT
#7958
That push by Flash.

Seemed like there is nothing that Best can do to stop it... Flash controls 200/200 army extremely well. Best couldn't find a good angle to engage and he was forced to engage in unfavorable positions.

So happy KT defended the title!
Sawamura
Profile Blog Joined August 2010
Malaysia7602 Posts
August 20 2011 04:57 GMT
#7959
On August 20 2011 11:20 moopie wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2011 11:01 VioRem wrote:
almost exactly 50-50 votes for each team :L

Thats only for the OP poll. People voting on visible polls on TL like to even things out for hype: KT/SKT, Flash/JD, etc.

The LB tells a different story :/

[image loading]


We are the underdogs T_T as expected from tl.net
BW/KT Forever R.I.P KT.Violet dearly missed ..
nodule
Profile Joined February 2008
Canada931 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-08-20 04:58:30
August 20 2011 04:58 GMT
#7960
On August 20 2011 12:06 Vazze wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 20 2011 10:42 TwoToneTerran wrote:
On August 20 2011 09:51 kdgns wrote:
On August 20 2011 09:24 moopie wrote:
On August 20 2011 09:19 Vazze wrote:
On August 20 2011 08:54 Toadily wrote:
I just realized that it should've been 6-1 if roo somehow didn't completely fail after those initial zerglings and action actually made some units especially lurkers, even 2 lurkers would've been completely enough to hold that push and be so far ahead on econ that it would've been impossible to lose

It could've been 4-0 for SKT if Hoejjas didn't decide to cheese.
Placing that hatch on his third made s2 go defensive because he didnt scout 12 hatch and went gas before pool.

huh?
1) HoeJJa didn't cheese
2) s2's overgas opening didn't at all depend on HoeJJa. His overlord was still in the middle of the map when he put the gas and pool down. The location of HoeJJa's expo did buy HoeJJa a few seconds of keeping s2 in the dark once s2's overlord arrived, but when it reached HoeJJa's main he knew there was another hatch.

+ Show Spoiler [vod] +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ykBbi-K0oJc


1) HoeJJa did cheese, in zvz, hidden hatch outside of nat is pretty much cheese
2) the cheese actually backfired due to the overgas because it created 2 spots for s2 to attack with his mutas and lings, s2 simply didnt choose to abuse that fact by pushing the multiple fronts, which is an unforced error that ultimately cost him the game.


Maybe if the hatch is in your opponent's main it's cheese. When it's at another base entirely to gather resources? Not so much.

From what i've heard, the definition of cheese is a strategy that works if unscouted and backfires when scouted.
Had Hoejja placed his hatch in his main, s2 would've sent out his lings to pressure.
The hatch was placed in his 3rd and therefore was not scouted by s2's first overlord.
s2 is then forced to block his choke because he expects 12pool/9pool which means he has inferior amounts of lings.

Not to mention that had the hatch been scouted early it would've been harder to defend it
(not that it would happen though)

Edit: Spelling


Cheese is that, but not all instances of that are cheese. Ninja expansions, for instance, or any kind of deception whatsoever.
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