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On June 23 2011 22:16 DarkMatter_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 22:04 TwoToneTerran wrote:
When was the last time Jaedong said another korean progamer played badly?
I have no doubt Flash gave it his all, but there's obvious context about his condition being bad equating to not playing up to his usual standard. During the entire game I and everyone in IRC were commenting on how weird and sloppy Flash was playing. You shouldn't specifically take my word for it, but go back and watch and say Flash played up to his standard with that game with a straight face. It fails the eye test big time.
It wasn't a completely poorly played game, but it was far below flash's standard and was most definitely one of his worse TvZ losses I've seen in awhile. When was the last time Jaedong said an opponent played tremendously? The closest examples I can was after winning his Bo5 against Snow and the Bo3 against Reality where he said was surprised at how well prepared they were. If Flash did indeed play horribly, Jaedong would have just kept his opinion to himself and he wouldn't say he played well when he clearly didn't just to be nice. And why do I care about what a bunch of people in an IRC channel have to say? You insist that every decision Flash made was bad (apart from planting mines) but you don't actually say what the correct decisions were in all those circumstances. Also, Jaedong's Bo5 losses against Flash were all far below JD's standard and only a fool would think Jaedong showed his full potential in those Bo5s, so what's your point here? These games show Jaedong's potential far better than any of those Bo5s from last year, and Flash has been getting manhandled each time, what conclusion are we supposed to draw from that?
I will agree that Jaedong did not play to his absolute best in most of those finals against Flash, though many of them were timing attack losses which I don't blame any player for losing to -- it's why I don't put much stock in some of the other losses Flash had to Jaedong earlier, because they were mutaling attacks and you lose to those sometimes, especially against Jaedong.
Anyhow, I'll give you my novice analysis of the most obvious things I saw go wrong for Flash, but the vods aren't out yet so I can't give a timestamp diagram of how things went. If you want I will gladly add on to this when it comes out. I have no problem answering the questions of others for why I have my opinion, and I freely and happily endorse criticism of my criticism. Anyhow:
Flash's crucial mistakes in the game were going for a mass rax +1 attack and...not attacking for quite some time. This was in part to his low marine count from jaedong's early pool and I'm not sure if this is purely a problem with the map or not, but that said, I assume Flash understands the map and had this build prepared for it. When you go 4 rax fast +1 attack, you typically try to put pressure on the zerg or the very least secure a third, neither of which Flash did -- this is especially crucial when your tech is incredibly slow the way his was (Flash's first factory was mindbogglingly late, I thought he had forgotten it when I was watching). And despite the on time ebay (as predicated by getting fast +1), he got caught either being late with his second turrets or just skipping too many altogether to defend his base adequately. He not only lost several marines and scvs to Jaedong's mutas -- which he absolutely knew were coming -- but also gave away his entire build. When you're doing nothing but massing marines and making turrets, you atleast ought to do it well enough so that you aren't devastated by mutas and have your already flimsy attack become even flimsier.
His one legitimate attempt at pressure ended with him losing the vast majority of his marines in Jaedong's natural and to natural attrition, and this forced him to go for an ill-fated mech transition -- the reason this was so ill-fated is because mech transitions are pretty weak when the zerg is already at hive, has four bases, you have no third gas and no way to secure a third gas safely (this was also a massive blunder by him, constantly leaving his third gas undefended despite knowing Jaedong had mutas and knowing jaedong had drops), and your opponent is Jaedong and not Kwanro. The only reason Flash was in that game for so long is that most of Jaedong's attempts to rally forces outside of Flash's mineral only area was weakened by the constant mining through the map -- thus my comment. It also does not help that Flash was throwing away most of his science vessels pretty sloppily, which you definitely can't afford to do when you're meching on 2 gas.
Jaedong played an excellent game and, frankly, I couldn't name 1 specific blunder he made in the game besides maybe some careless losses to mines (this is nitpicking extraordinaire, though), and it certainly helped add to the premise that this is one of Flash's worst TvZs in awhile because of the juxtaposition. It may have been Jaedong exposing more holes in Flash's play than we usually see, but you don't become as successful as Flash has been recently with this many glaringly bad problems.
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Hi guys, thanks for the kind comments. Ive always maintained, it is never personal. Hit me up whenever you see Im off, in the same manner that you can always expect from me the whole lot - upgraded spine + swarm + level 5 million glave wurms + broodling infest + plague whenever I catch you saying anything silly or plain idiotic. If its mere fanboyism, lets all take it in good stride with a plenty of humor and a bit of childlikeness. :p after all, (all together now) BW = <3!
However, I feel the urgent need to point this out: >.<
Quasar, wtf man! You sure you want to be OUT of the elite big boys club?+ Show Spoiler +
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Russian Federation4405 Posts
On June 23 2011 22:39 GG.NoRe wrote:Hi guys, thanks for the kind comments. Ive always maintained, it is never personal. Hit me up whenever you see Im off, in the same manner that you can always expect from me the whole lot - upgraded spine + swarm + level 5 million glave wurms + broodling infest + plague whenever I catch you saying anything silly or plain idiotic. If its mere fanboyism, lets all take it in good stride with a plenty of humor and a bit of childlikeness. :p after all, (all together now) BW = <3! However, I feel the urgent need to point this out: >.< Quasar, wtf man! You sure you want to be OUT of the elite big boys club? + Show Spoiler +
WeMade icon that I've put, it's because all those fucking gossip they have to be "disbanded" at the end of the season. No way! It's just to show support to that team, Baby/Mind/Shine are all talented players. 
Sad to hear such a gossip. 
On June 23 2011 21:18 BLinD-RawR wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 21:08 _Quasar_ wrote:
I wish Jaedong can exceed Flash in going into tournament deeper, not only beating him in head-to-head bo1. whats with the WeMade tag?I thought you were an OZ fan?
tbh I'm more Jaedong fan than OZ's... though, the other team I like (Stars), I like less, I think Oz has more of a "winning psychology", and I kind of don't like when there's no such thing.
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On June 23 2011 17:32 KMJ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 17:22 GolemMadness wrote:
...So basically, if Jaedong's not in it, it isn't a significant final in your eyes, and when Jaedong makes it to a final and doesn't win, he's slumping. Good to know you're being objective about it. Show nested quote +me: Jaedong and Flash met at all the significant SLs in the last couple years. What part of "and" don't you understand to put words in my mouth. You're blind or you can't read. Moreover, would you consider Great vs Hydra a significant SL? Stork and Fantasy, yes, their both up there. P.S. Jaedong's being playing for almost exactly a year longer than Flash, and only has 30 more wins. He's also two years older.
I said it before. Statistics. Facts. Actual Events. Record.
I'm not speculating about possibilities or conjectures. I'm simply stating the record. And Flash fans seem to have a problem that Jaedong is ahead on that part. Sorry. Facts, plain and simple.[/QUOTE]
Any final is significant. You can't just say "Flash made it to two more finals, but they weren't significant because he wasn't playing Jaedong." Nobody cares that Jaedong has more wins. Flash has more titles in less time and at a younger age. And if you're stating the record, the VAST majority of people declared Flash to be bonjwa, many of whom are much more knowledgeable about it than you. Sorry, facts, plain and simple.
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On June 23 2011 22:36 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 22:16 DarkMatter_ wrote:On June 23 2011 22:04 TwoToneTerran wrote:
When was the last time Jaedong said another korean progamer played badly?
I have no doubt Flash gave it his all, but there's obvious context about his condition being bad equating to not playing up to his usual standard. During the entire game I and everyone in IRC were commenting on how weird and sloppy Flash was playing. You shouldn't specifically take my word for it, but go back and watch and say Flash played up to his standard with that game with a straight face. It fails the eye test big time.
It wasn't a completely poorly played game, but it was far below flash's standard and was most definitely one of his worse TvZ losses I've seen in awhile. When was the last time Jaedong said an opponent played tremendously? The closest examples I can was after winning his Bo5 against Snow and the Bo3 against Reality where he said was surprised at how well prepared they were. If Flash did indeed play horribly, Jaedong would have just kept his opinion to himself and he wouldn't say he played well when he clearly didn't just to be nice. And why do I care about what a bunch of people in an IRC channel have to say? You insist that every decision Flash made was bad (apart from planting mines) but you don't actually say what the correct decisions were in all those circumstances. Also, Jaedong's Bo5 losses against Flash were all far below JD's standard and only a fool would think Jaedong showed his full potential in those Bo5s, so what's your point here? These games show Jaedong's potential far better than any of those Bo5s from last year, and Flash has been getting manhandled each time, what conclusion are we supposed to draw from that? Flash's crucial mistakes in the game were going for a mass rax +1 attack and...not attacking for quite some time. This was in part to his low marine count from jaedong's early pool and I'm not sure if this is purely a problem with the map or not, but that said, I assume Flash understands the map and had this build prepared for it. When you go 4 rax fast +1 attack, you typically try to put pressure on the zerg or the very least secure a third, neither of which Flash did -- this is especially crucial when your tech is incredibly slow the way his was (Flash's first factory was mindbogglingly late, I thought he had forgotten it when I was watching). And despite the on time ebay (as predicated by getting fast +1), he got caught either being late with his second turrets or just skipping too many altogether to defend his base adequately. He not only lost several marines and scvs to Jaedong's mutas -- which he absolutely knew were coming -- but also gave away his entire build. When you're doing nothing but massing marines and making turrets, you atleast ought to do it well enough so that you aren't devastated by mutas and have your already flimsy attack become even flimsier.
I don't think you were even watching the game. Flash opened with a 1base build. He wasn't doing his usual upgrade Terran build. It's not even about taking a third or denying the Zerg's third at this time (Jaedong didn't have the minerals to take a third after opening pool first and Flash didn't have his natural up forever because of his 2rax gas opening). Obviously Flash's tech is going to be late since he opened 2rax gas.
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On June 23 2011 22:36 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2011 22:16 DarkMatter_ wrote:On June 23 2011 22:04 TwoToneTerran wrote:
When was the last time Jaedong said another korean progamer played badly?
I have no doubt Flash gave it his all, but there's obvious context about his condition being bad equating to not playing up to his usual standard. During the entire game I and everyone in IRC were commenting on how weird and sloppy Flash was playing. You shouldn't specifically take my word for it, but go back and watch and say Flash played up to his standard with that game with a straight face. It fails the eye test big time.
It wasn't a completely poorly played game, but it was far below flash's standard and was most definitely one of his worse TvZ losses I've seen in awhile. When was the last time Jaedong said an opponent played tremendously? The closest examples I can was after winning his Bo5 against Snow and the Bo3 against Reality where he said was surprised at how well prepared they were. If Flash did indeed play horribly, Jaedong would have just kept his opinion to himself and he wouldn't say he played well when he clearly didn't just to be nice. And why do I care about what a bunch of people in an IRC channel have to say? You insist that every decision Flash made was bad (apart from planting mines) but you don't actually say what the correct decisions were in all those circumstances. Also, Jaedong's Bo5 losses against Flash were all far below JD's standard and only a fool would think Jaedong showed his full potential in those Bo5s, so what's your point here? These games show Jaedong's potential far better than any of those Bo5s from last year, and Flash has been getting manhandled each time, what conclusion are we supposed to draw from that? I will agree that Jaedong did not play to his absolute best in most of those finals against Flash, though many of them were timing attack losses which I don't blame any player for losing to -- it's why I don't put much stock in some of the other losses Flash had to Jaedong earlier, because they were mutaling attacks and you lose to those sometimes, especially against Jaedong. Anyhow, I'll give you my novice analysis of the most obvious things I saw go wrong for Flash, but the vods aren't out yet so I can't give a timestamp diagram of how things went. If you want I will gladly add on to this when it comes out. I have no problem answering the questions of others for why I have my opinion, and I freely and happily endorse criticism of my criticism. Anyhow: Flash's crucial mistakes in the game were going for a mass rax +1 attack and...not attacking for quite some time. This was in part to his low marine count from jaedong's early pool and I'm not sure if this is purely a problem with the map or not, but that said, I assume Flash understands the map and had this build prepared for it. When you go 4 rax fast +1 attack, you typically try to put pressure on the zerg or the very least secure a third, neither of which Flash did -- this is especially crucial when your tech is incredibly slow the way his was (Flash's first factory was mindbogglingly late, I thought he had forgotten it when I was watching). And despite the on time ebay (as predicated by getting fast +1), he got caught either being late with his second turrets or just skipping too many altogether to defend his base adequately. He not only lost several marines and scvs to Jaedong's mutas -- which he absolutely knew were coming -- but also gave away his entire build. When you're doing nothing but massing marines and making turrets, you atleast ought to do it well enough so that you aren't devastated by mutas and have your already flimsy attack become even flimsier. His one legitimate attempt at pressure ended with him losing the vast majority of his marines in Jaedong's natural and to natural attrition, and this forced him to go for an ill-fated mech transition -- the reason this was so ill-fated is because mech transitions are pretty weak when the zerg is already at hive, has four bases, you have no third gas and no way to secure a third gas safely (this was also a massive blunder by him, constantly leaving his third gas undefended despite knowing Jaedong had mutas and knowing jaedong had drops), and your opponent is Jaedong and not Kwanro. The only reason Flash was in that game for so long is that most of Jaedong's attempts to rally forces outside of Flash's mineral only area was weakened by the constant mining through the map -- thus my comment. It also does not help that Flash was throwing away most of his science vessels pretty sloppily, which you definitely can't afford to do when you're meching on 2 gas. Jaedong played an excellent game and, frankly, I couldn't name 1 specific blunder he made in the game besides maybe some careless losses to mines (this is nitpicking extraordinaire, though), and it certainly helped add to the premise that this is one of Flash's worst TvZs in awhile because of the juxtaposition. It may have been Jaedong exposing more holes in Flash's play than we usually see, but you don't become as successful as Flash has been recently with this many glaringly bad problems.
I don't deny that Flash is capable of playing much better than he did that game, but I still don't think his play was filled with "glaringly bad problems". A lot of Flash's problems came from the significant disadvantage early on, and the fact that Jaedong played excellently and really didn't make any significant mistakes. All of Flash's timings were off that game due to that initial setback (his expo was incredibly late after being forced into a 2rax opening which proved to be ineffectual due to all the early marine losses) rather than due to poor decision-making. I think it's better to acknowledge JD's opinion on the matter because I don't think any of us are experienced enough to understand Flash's economic situation. Maybe if Flash was playing in his peak condition, he would've had a more inspired response to his early setback (baseless speculation), but Flash never really stood much of a chance trying to play a standard game after that setback, especially with the way Jaedong was playing that day. People talk time and time again about how FvJ games tend to be so one-sided because as soon as one player gets even the slightest advantage, they fully capitalize on that advantage and don't give the opponent a chance to make a comeback. This is one of those games. Jaedong never gave Flash much of a chance to do anything the entire game.
I agree with you about his failure to properly defend his gas expo, but I think the game was already over at that point. Flash had a mountain to climb after doing zero damage with the bio phase and with Jaedong having unharrassed expansions everywhere.
Also, Flash absolutely demolished Hyun and Bogus so any excuses relating to his wrist conditions, however valid they may be, fail to properly explain why he got outplayed. I'm certain that against most other zergs, Flash still would've managed to win.
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After watching the game myself I have to say Flash played really well considering the opening build failure. JD would've gotten that win a lot easier against most other Terrans.
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On June 24 2011 02:59 Holgerius wrote:
After watching the game myself I have to say Flash played really well considering the opening build failure. JD would've gotten that win a lot easier against most other Terrans.
Yeah. Flash played well to actually stay in that game for as long as he did considering that Jaedong was at Flash's doorstep with a ton of lurkers and dark swarm at one point, which would've been game over right there against most players (see JD vs. Bogus). Flash did a great job by leaving his MnM force in the middle of the map instead of retreating them to his base, and by using them to cut off defiler reinforcements. And he followed that up with some really effective use of vulture mines, causing JD to lose a lot of units and forcing him to wait till he got the overlord drop upgrade before he could do anything to pressure Flash.
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On June 24 2011 03:24 DarkMatter_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 02:59 Holgerius wrote:
After watching the game myself I have to say Flash played really well considering the opening build failure. JD would've gotten that win a lot easier against most other Terrans. Yeah. Flash played well to actually stay in that game for as long as he did considering that Jaedong was at Flash's doorstep with a ton of lurkers and dark swarm at one point, which would've been game over right there against most players (see JD vs. Bogus). Flash did a great job by leaving his MnM force in the middle of the map instead of retreating them to his base, and by using them to cut off defiler reinforcements. And he followed that up with some really effective use of vulture mines, causing JD to lose a lot of units and forcing him to wait till he got the overlord drop upgrade before he could do anything to pressure Flash.
Tbh, I think JD made some mistakes in that play. He could have been more careful with Zerglings to not run into Vulture + Mines (while only taking out 3 Vultures which is not a good trade-off for a full control group of lings) and then being not careful with burrowing lurkers when Flash's MnMs forces are at his door after the initial Mutalisk harassment (he could've held that off perfectly without taking off Drones of from mining and losing 2 drones collecting gas to Marines) and another thing was that he could have controlled his Lurkers better in battles to not run into mines and losing about 5 of them. The game could have ended sooner.
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On June 24 2011 03:44 Xiphos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 03:24 DarkMatter_ wrote:On June 24 2011 02:59 Holgerius wrote:
After watching the game myself I have to say Flash played really well considering the opening build failure. JD would've gotten that win a lot easier against most other Terrans. Yeah. Flash played well to actually stay in that game for as long as he did considering that Jaedong was at Flash's doorstep with a ton of lurkers and dark swarm at one point, which would've been game over right there against most players (see JD vs. Bogus). Flash did a great job by leaving his MnM force in the middle of the map instead of retreating them to his base, and by using them to cut off defiler reinforcements. And he followed that up with some really effective use of vulture mines, causing JD to lose a lot of units and forcing him to wait till he got the overlord drop upgrade before he could do anything to pressure Flash. Tbh, I think JD made some mistakes in that play. He could have been more careful with Zerglings to not run into Vulture + Mines (while only taking out 3 Vultures which is not a good trade-off for a full control group of lings) and then being not careful with burrowing lurkers when Flash's MnMs forces are at his door after the initial Mutalisk harassment (he could've held that off perfectly without taking off Drones of from mining and losing 2 drones collecting gas to Marines) and another thing was that he could have controlled his Lurkers better in battles to not run into mines and losing about 5 of them. The game could have ended sooner.
While I agree there were things to be improved upon, the overall play was outstanding. I hope Jaedong can buckle down and hammer out the few flaws he has left and come through with a good win in this tourny. If he does I think he'll be returned to form as a top notch flash rival instead of being relegated to the slight shadow he's been under recently.
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Woah, nice predictions - and nice LR, thanks
JD and Flash too bonjwa for this group
+ Show Spoiler +
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On June 24 2011 07:16 Shiladie wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2011 03:44 Xiphos wrote:On June 24 2011 03:24 DarkMatter_ wrote:On June 24 2011 02:59 Holgerius wrote:
After watching the game myself I have to say Flash played really well considering the opening build failure. JD would've gotten that win a lot easier against most other Terrans. Yeah. Flash played well to actually stay in that game for as long as he did considering that Jaedong was at Flash's doorstep with a ton of lurkers and dark swarm at one point, which would've been game over right there against most players (see JD vs. Bogus). Flash did a great job by leaving his MnM force in the middle of the map instead of retreating them to his base, and by using them to cut off defiler reinforcements. And he followed that up with some really effective use of vulture mines, causing JD to lose a lot of units and forcing him to wait till he got the overlord drop upgrade before he could do anything to pressure Flash. Tbh, I think JD made some mistakes in that play. He could have been more careful with Zerglings to not run into Vulture + Mines (while only taking out 3 Vultures which is not a good trade-off for a full control group of lings) and then being not careful with burrowing lurkers when Flash's MnMs forces are at his door after the initial Mutalisk harassment (he could've held that off perfectly without taking off Drones of from mining and losing 2 drones collecting gas to Marines) and another thing was that he could have controlled his Lurkers better in battles to not run into mines and losing about 5 of them. The game could have ended sooner. While I agree there were things to be improved upon, the overall play was outstanding. I hope Jaedong can buckle down and hammer out the few flaws he has left and come through with a good win in this tourny. If he does I think he'll be returned to form as a top notch flash rival instead of being relegated to the slight shadow he's been under recently.
ALL I want to see if for the Tyrant to be back. yes JD might be doing really well against Terran these days but I want to see his old style. What happened to the super hyper aggresive JD that we see with 2 full control group of Mutas? JD seems to rush for Hive tech every time he plays now.
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On June 24 2011 02:59 Holgerius wrote:
After watching the game myself I have to say Flash played really well considering the opening build failure. JD would've gotten that win a lot easier against most other Terrans.
he didnt play really well
jd just got lazy...the game was easily his no matter how you looked at it and i think he was honestly expecting flash to just gg earlier
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Haha, Flash gives away an eco advantage against JD = complete total loss. Yes people will point that it lasted for ages, that's because Terran can stretch a game out that should have ended in half the time.
Don't people see the pattern yet? Whoever gets that advantage usually wins every time. And when it's equal i actually believe Jaedong wins. But more games will show it in future. It's still a poor 2rax performance from supposedly the greatest player of the game ever, when Jaedong had it under control 100% of the time (the natural breach was basically do or die point he could have gg'd after that anyway).
Now notice the opposite when Flash does do well against Jaedong it's with unavoidable 14CC midgame advantages, unscoutable crazy tech switches and timing pushes, some cheeses here and there. Whenever they play a more straight game against each other Jaedong usually comes out on top.
Now i know this will be argued back and forth forever, Flash is still the best player ever we have to give him it for his incredible win percentages and achievements; but let's spare a thought for Jaedong who plays a less consistent race, has a mirror-matchup on a knives edge where one tiny mistake = lose (think how many comebacks Flash TvT has had to make, impressive as it's been), has arguably the hardest non-mirror in ZvT, has had an insane amount of builds and crazy things played specifically against him from both races, has a weak team of practice partners. Yet he still has a huge trophy count (and even bigger final count), goes deep every single tournament, beats the best player on a regular basis now, has maybe the best current ZvT form that's ever been played. Amazing really. I do love the guy, what a player.
By the way, no surprise to come in and see no other than TwoToneTerran making ever excuse under the sun. I'm afraid you can do this for any game played basically. You can pick at things constantly to make it sound like 'a bad day at the office' but a result is a result and it was the 4th 'bad looking' loss to Jaedong in a row. He didn't play THAT badly at all to try and justify all the shit you're saying, you're making yourself seem insufferable.
Edit: i just rewatched the start of the game (since i missed some of it) and JD was 7pool vs 8rax? i thought it was 12hatch vs 2rax... so he had an advantage.. haha. Well my point stands even more.
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Also Jaedong please apply some of this to your other matchups ffs. I don't want to see a ZvZ fuckup in this along the line, that would just make a mockery of the insane ZvT he's playing lately, 24-6 this year i believe, with one loss in a bo3.
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Easiest 3 liquibet pts!
JD looking good too, hopefully he doesnt lost another jvz and gets to the finals
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WHOA! O__O
Jaedong FOR THE WIN!! He's on this Power Rank's top 5 FOR SURE :D
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Russian Federation905 Posts
Top 5? Thats crazy. Why put Zero, Bisu, and NSK ahead of him now? Are those three playing better than him?
Also, why is no one bothering to make Group C. That's later also right? LOL
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9dkYc.jpg)
