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On June 15 2011 14:56 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2011 14:54 champignones wrote:On June 15 2011 14:46 blade55555 wrote:On June 15 2011 14:39 champignones wrote:On June 15 2011 14:37 blade55555 wrote:On June 15 2011 14:36 champignones wrote:
its funny all these people talk about the great zvt from flash when he only won by a muta lame attack, tell me when he win flash in a long macro game and we will talk about having good zvt. tell me when flash stops making mistakes so that jaedong doesn't have to kill him early, then we can have a good zvt  this only proves flash messed up big time and thats it, jd will gain my respect again when he win flash in a BO5 in a league final or semifinal ,but i promise you he will lose as he always do against flash. well he's not going to let flash get away with 14 cc, and being super greedy like he was. That is suicide due to terran having a way better economy. So you count a macro game where flash is ahead in economy from the get go? No that isn't how it should work, so till Flash stops being so greedy (moving his force over to the third + making a bunker to make it so jaedong would be way behind while also 14 CC'ing). He deserves to lose. flash could hold that attack regarding he made 14 cc , his mistake was that he divide his forces in order to try to deny third, and jaedong simply took advantage and went for the main. as i told you this shows nothing about jaedong skill at all, this only shows he .... does mutalisk?, i wanted to see defiler swarm terran advancing retreating, etc. if jaedong would have won in that way then i would say his zvt is just godly like the last time they play when he clearly outmacroed flash, unfortunately flash wasnt able to show his late game play due to that mistake. I want to see it to i'm just saying letting flash do all that is being greedy and should be punished. Like I said he sent most of his forces and made a bunker at jaedongs third to deny it longer then normal and be that much more ahead economically. Instead Jaedong punishes him (whether by scouting or by luck) and wins. Just like jaedong deserved to lose when he was mass expanding while making no units then flash would come out and kill him in like alot of the finals. He deserved to lose for being to greedy just like flash, flash didn't beat him in a macro game, jaedong lost because he was being to greedy like flash trying to get a huge advantage to where if flash let it go untouched, would be rolled over like a pancake.
Pretty much 100% my thoughts. These players don't seem to lose to each other "legitimately" much any more...it's just BO wins or punished excessive greed.
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Come on Hyo. Win one for the Dong.
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Sky sporting an abysmal 1-9 record. Tempest close behind, at 2-7.
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On June 15 2011 14:56 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2011 14:54 champignones wrote:On June 15 2011 14:46 blade55555 wrote:On June 15 2011 14:39 champignones wrote:On June 15 2011 14:37 blade55555 wrote:On June 15 2011 14:36 champignones wrote:
its funny all these people talk about the great zvt from flash when he only won by a muta lame attack, tell me when he win flash in a long macro game and we will talk about having good zvt. tell me when flash stops making mistakes so that jaedong doesn't have to kill him early, then we can have a good zvt this only proves flash messed up big time and thats it, jd will gain my respect again when he win flash in a BO5 in a league final or semifinal ,but i promise you he will lose as he always do against flash. well he's not going to let flash get away with 14 cc, and being super greedy like he was. That is suicide due to terran having a way better economy. So you count a macro game where flash is ahead in economy from the get go? No that isn't how it should work, so till Flash stops being so greedy (moving his force over to the third + making a bunker to make it so jaedong would be way behind while also 14 CC'ing). He deserves to lose. flash could hold that attack regarding he made 14 cc , his mistake was that he divide his forces in order to try to deny third, and jaedong simply took advantage and went for the main. as i told you this shows nothing about jaedong skill at all, this only shows he .... does mutalisk?, i wanted to see defiler swarm terran advancing retreating, etc. if jaedong would have won in that way then i would say his zvt is just godly like the last time they play when he clearly outmacroed flash, unfortunately flash wasnt able to show his late game play due to that mistake. I want to see it to i'm just saying letting flash do all that is being greedy and should be punished. Like I said he sent most of his forces and made a bunker at jaedongs third to deny it longer then normal and be that much more ahead economically. Instead Jaedong punishes him (whether by scouting or by luck) and wins. Just like jaedong deserved to lose when he was mass expanding while making no units then flash would come out and kill him in like alot of the finals. He deserved to lose for being to greedy just like flash, flash didn't beat him in a macro game, jaedong lost because he was being to greedy like flash trying to get a huge advantage to where if flash let it go untouched, would be rolled over like a pancake.
either way jaedong needs to beat the other progamers as well, is like in pokemon some pokemon are good against some types but no pokemon is good against all the types at the same time, i hope jd recover himself and play flash in yet another final,but an exciting one not like the latest zvt we had that had been very depressing due to one player being too good or another playing being too weak
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I don't know if Oz has anyone to close this out before the ace! X_X
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On June 15 2011 15:00 Gescom wrote:
I don't know if Oz has anyone to close this out before the ace! X_X
anytime
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On June 15 2011 14:58 tbrown47 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2011 14:54 TwoToneTerran wrote:On June 15 2011 14:52 tbrown47 wrote:On June 15 2011 14:41 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On June 15 2011 14:39 konadora wrote:On June 15 2011 14:39 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On June 15 2011 14:37 Winechu wrote:On June 15 2011 14:35 disciple wrote:
how the game went imo:
JD opens with early game ling aggression, Flash sees it coming and block it on the ramp outside of his natural. JD is behind on drones and economy so he decides to 2 base all-in. For some reason Flash thinks JD would take a 3rd on 9 o'clock and gets his entire army there and leaves 2 firebats in the bunker outside of his nat. JD goes in with muta, and flash seems to have enough turrets. JD brings in a control group of lings to clean up and turrets while it takes half a day for flash to bring back his forces from 9 o'clock. GG It was aggressive, but it wasn't an all-in IMO Definitely all-in. 14cc vs. forced to mass two groups of lings, 2 sunkens, and no third? Definitely all-in :3 wouldn't be enough to call it all-in, tbh If that attack did anything less than kill like 20 SCVs and a bazillion marines, Jaedong would've lost :3 Pretty all-in ;o all-in is such a misused word all-in means if the attack doesnt win the game then the all-iner loses. you just admitted yourself the attack wasn't all-in by saying "20 scvs/a lot of marines" isn't killing the opponent the term "all-in" itself is a dumb word anyway, nothing is "all-in" if you think about it. as long as you do equal damage that you put into it its cost effective. You just admitted you don't know what killing your opponent is when you think that killing their entire army and 2/3rds of their workers isn't killing them. It was all in -- if a zerg uses only 3 hatches to make nothing but units and skips drones and goes from mutas directly to lurkers without taking a third it is a straight all in. There is nothing embarassing or shameful about doing an all in. That isn't "all-in" though. All in means ALL or NOTHING, win or lose, etc. If he did enough damage, but Flash still survived, the game could've transitioned into something somewhat normal. If you invest, for example, 1000 minerals and 500 gas into an early attack by not expanding/teching then you deal 1000 minerals and 500 gas with that attack, then you didn't kill your opponent or kill yourself. You are on an even footing. I understand what people mean when they say "all-in", it is just a stupid word to describe the form of play, imo.
This is pedantic bordering nonsense. If the attack does not do enough to kill flash then it's 2 base vs 2 base which is a dead situation for zerg everytime. The intent of the play is to kill the opponent or expect a loss. It is a one in a thousand scenario when attacks like these just cancel out. Favoring the aberration is silly.
There is no situation in this game where Jaedong wins if that attack does not work. He can not make a third base because of Flash's roaming force, there's no "breaking even" in this scenario. With some cheeses this is the case, but not 2 base zvt all ins.
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On June 15 2011 15:00 Gescom wrote:
I don't know if Oz has anyone to close this out before the ace! X_X
neither does KT
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Oh dang, Oz could win this!
(*cough* would be amazing if KT gets it level again and we have JvF rematch...and JD wins again :3)
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On June 15 2011 15:00 Gescom wrote:
I don't know if Oz has anyone to close this out before the ace! X_X
How can you forget Anytime?
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On June 15 2011 15:00 Gescom wrote:
I don't know if Oz has anyone to close this out before the ace! X_X
Oz has much better players left compared to KT. Oz has Anytime and Perfectman. Shy is pretty promising too.
I wish they didn't send Sky though.
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Is Oz mathematically eliminated for playoffs yet?
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On June 15 2011 15:02 Kavas wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2011 15:00 Gescom wrote:
I don't know if Oz has anyone to close this out before the ace! X_X How can you forget Anytime?
I have no faith. ={
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Fat zealot huffing and puffing after probe.
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On June 15 2011 15:03 j2choe wrote:
Is Oz mathematically eliminated for playoffs yet?
only ace is
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9071 Posts
but the point was that JD was already behind econwise because of early game. What JD did wasnt the typical very fast 2base mutas, the attack was just a reaction to the situation he got himself to initially. it was pretty much a do-or-die. and lol, ofc the point is not eliminate every single of their buildings for smth to be an all-in, like CSheep said 20 scvs midgame would do.
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On June 15 2011 15:01 TwoToneTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2011 14:58 tbrown47 wrote:On June 15 2011 14:54 TwoToneTerran wrote:On June 15 2011 14:52 tbrown47 wrote:On June 15 2011 14:41 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On June 15 2011 14:39 konadora wrote:On June 15 2011 14:39 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On June 15 2011 14:37 Winechu wrote:On June 15 2011 14:35 disciple wrote:
how the game went imo:
JD opens with early game ling aggression, Flash sees it coming and block it on the ramp outside of his natural. JD is behind on drones and economy so he decides to 2 base all-in. For some reason Flash thinks JD would take a 3rd on 9 o'clock and gets his entire army there and leaves 2 firebats in the bunker outside of his nat. JD goes in with muta, and flash seems to have enough turrets. JD brings in a control group of lings to clean up and turrets while it takes half a day for flash to bring back his forces from 9 o'clock. GG It was aggressive, but it wasn't an all-in IMO Definitely all-in. 14cc vs. forced to mass two groups of lings, 2 sunkens, and no third? Definitely all-in :3 wouldn't be enough to call it all-in, tbh If that attack did anything less than kill like 20 SCVs and a bazillion marines, Jaedong would've lost :3 Pretty all-in ;o all-in is such a misused word all-in means if the attack doesnt win the game then the all-iner loses. you just admitted yourself the attack wasn't all-in by saying "20 scvs/a lot of marines" isn't killing the opponent the term "all-in" itself is a dumb word anyway, nothing is "all-in" if you think about it. as long as you do equal damage that you put into it its cost effective. You just admitted you don't know what killing your opponent is when you think that killing their entire army and 2/3rds of their workers isn't killing them. It was all in -- if a zerg uses only 3 hatches to make nothing but units and skips drones and goes from mutas directly to lurkers without taking a third it is a straight all in. There is nothing embarassing or shameful about doing an all in. That isn't "all-in" though. All in means ALL or NOTHING, win or lose, etc. If he did enough damage, but Flash still survived, the game could've transitioned into something somewhat normal. If you invest, for example, 1000 minerals and 500 gas into an early attack by not expanding/teching then you deal 1000 minerals and 500 gas with that attack, then you didn't kill your opponent or kill yourself. You are on an even footing. I understand what people mean when they say "all-in", it is just a stupid word to describe the form of play, imo. This is pedantic bordering nonsense. If the attack does not do enough to kill flash then it's 2 base vs 2 base which is a dead situation for zerg everytime. The intent of the play is to kill the opponent or expect a loss. It is a one in a thousand scenario when attacks like these just cancel out. Favoring the aberration is silly.
You are making it sound like they have to cancel eachother out exactly. Besides 2 base Z vs 2 base T with ALOT less SCVs doesn't mean T wins. It isn't an abberation at all, I was just using that as an example. JD did enough damage there, if his mutalisks would've died somehow there the game could've transitioned into something normal. That isn't the definition of the term "all-in".
edit:
I think you are losing perspective of what I'm arguing, or I didn't make it clear. To me, there really isn't any "all-in" in Starcraft, because there are never only 2 options, win or lose. There are too many factors that dictate the game. All-in is a misused word.
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EPT
