[MSL] Grand Final - Page 187

On June 15 2011 08:09 DarkMatter_ wrote:

It always looks that way when a player dominates another player that badly. Imagine if Flash crushed Jaedong in their last game with his fast science vessel push. Everyone would talk about how great he is, but instead Flash got owned before he even had a chance to do anything with his build and ended up being criticized for choosing that unorthodox build. Remember that game against Calm on Benzene where he went for pretty much the same valkonic build that he used against Zero and got completely destroyed by Calm who went for lurkers instead of mutas?

Flash reads his opponents really well and his opponents always seem to end up playing exactly the way he expects them to, but there's nothing unstoppable about Flash. When he doesn't win the mindgames, even inferior players like Effort can make him look silly.

The only player that has an aura of invincibility at the moment is Bisu and his PvZ. It's pretty much the only matchup that simply looks unbeatable.

On June 15 2011 07:47 DarkMatter_ wrote:
....Yes, Flash probably would've played differently against Jaedong (i.e. 14CC and 6/8 rax like a shameless motherfucker)...

On June 15 2011 08:54 Ermac wrote:


Jesus... you just can't help it, can you?

Even if Flash won the next 3 star leagues in a row you would find ways to diminish his accomplishments or his skills. Even if Flash doesn't "win the mindgames" he wtfpwns his opponents regularly. How often does he make come backs against seemingly insurmountable advantages? How often does he win despite starting with a huge disadvantage?

When Flash reads his opponents correctly it's a massacre, when he starts with a huge disadvantage it's a game. Against EffOrt he was just being arrogant and sloppy and thus made entirely avoidable mistakes. If you actually watched his games you would notice that he has clearly learned from those mistakes.

If anyone has an aura of invincibility it is Flash. Every progamer knows and says it, every rational observer knows and says it, the commentators say it.

Take a look at this.
Are you honestly saying the guy has been winning over 75% of his games over a period of 18 months(!!!!) in more than 200 games because "his opponents always do exactly would he expects them to"? LOL....

Edit: Btw. what's up with calling Flash a shameless motherfucker? o.O Are you content with calling Jaedong the same then because he 4 pooled twice in a row in the finals of a star league? Throwing around insults like that is really uncalled for, even if it's just a hypothetical scenario.

I'm not saying he only wins games because of mindgames, but that is the biggest reason why he consistently does so well against the best players in important series.

In comparison, Bisu has been absolutely demolishing all the best zergs over and over without breaking a sweat, and he didn't even have to rely on build order advantages or anything. That's what I consider having an aura of invincibility.

On June 15 2011 08:54 Ermac wrote:

Edit: Btw. what's up with calling Flash a shameless motherfucker? o.O Are you content with calling Jaedong the same then because he 4 pooled twice in a row in the finals of a star league? Throwing around insults like that is really uncalled for, even if it's just a hypothetical scenario.

On June 15 2011 10:07 Gescom wrote:
I'm a flagrant Bisu fanboy, but why even bother bringing up his PvZ in relation to Flash? Flash is an absolute monster in all matchups, all leagues and all formats. If you wanted to talk about a bo5 series, Flash is undeniably the strongest opponent and has been for almost two years now. I would not expect even Bisu to 3-0 over Zero in a finals.

(and you realize Flash's vZ peak is still higher than Bisu's, yes?)

On June 15 2011 11:55 xarthaz wrote:

Its because ZvT is hard. T is generally advantaged(currently most imbalanced bw matchup with t leading 50 ELO points over z on average), so it makes sense that the inferior side has the right to at least make fun of the scenario.


That is not correct. Flash's vZ peak is lower than both Bisu's and Jaedong's, when compared to the relative average of the race's vZ ELOs

On June 15 2011 12:29 agarangu wrote:


Who compares players to the relative average of the race's vX ELOs? Besides you, I mean.

On June 15 2011 08:41 illusiongamer wrote:
the only programer can beat flash right now in a bo5 are Jaedong and Best (maybe Effort), but best is only good vs T, he need to play only vs terran to encounter Flash.
Jaedong only need avoiding zerg he will be ok.

and for the people who think Zero overtaken Jaedong as the zerg Overmind, yeah is he in a slump but he still are in the semifinals, defeated by two zergs, the worse part is: nobody will take Jaedong throne left soon, the less worse candidate are soulkey.

I need the Tyrant return.

On June 15 2011 08:09 DarkMatter_ wrote:

It always looks that way when a player dominates another player that badly. Imagine if Flash crushed Jaedong in their last game with his fast science vessel push. Everyone would talk about how great he is, but instead Flash got owned before he even had a chance to do anything with his build and ended up being criticized for choosing that unorthodox build. Remember that game against Calm on Benzene where he went for pretty much the same valkonic build that he used against Zero and got completely destroyed by Calm who went for lurkers instead of mutas?

Flash reads his opponents really well and his opponents always seem to end up playing exactly the way he expects them to, but there's nothing unstoppable about Flash. When he doesn't win the mindgames, even inferior players like Effort can make him look silly.

The only player that has an aura of invincibility at the moment is Bisu and his PvZ. It's pretty much the only matchup that simply looks unbeatable.

On June 15 2011 13:02 Ermac wrote:


I'd like to know that as well. Furthermore every race has that so called "hard" match up. That didn't stop Flash from convincingly beating two protosses in star league finals - including a 3-0 vs Stork on protoss favored maps - and it doesn't stop him from maintaining a 70%+ win ratio in TvP and the highest vP ELO peak ever.

This isn't SC2. Blaming losses on racial imbalance has no place in Broodwar as far as I'm concerned.

On June 15 2011 22:57 xarthaz wrote:
Its just being unbiased man. Imagine if every tvz game had a trigger that would make terran's scvs construct at a 10% slower rate. Would that mean that flash were no longer better than bisu or jaedong against z? The differences between actual BW races are more abstract, but the trend of race performance remains quite stable(t being 50 elo points above z, z being 38,5 points above p, p being 22 points above t). See my recent thread on elaboration http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=233550

On June 15 2011 08:41 illusiongamer wrote:
the only programer can beat flash right now in a bo5 are Jaedong and Best (maybe Effort), but best is only good vs T, he need to play only vs terran to encounter Flash.
Jaedong only need avoiding zerg he will be ok.

and for the people who think Zero overtaken Jaedong as the zerg Overmind, yeah is he in a slump but he still are in the semifinals, defeated by two zergs, the worse part is: nobody will take Jaedong throne left soon, the less worse candidate are soulkey.

I need the Tyrant return.

On June 16 2011 13:32 Motivate wrote:
i never understood why qqing was so acceptable in bw/sc2 and yet in other games if you qq about balance everyone will simply tell you to GTFO

also, how come flash is the only consistently good terran around? zerg has jaedong, calm, hydra, zero and soulkey while protoss has stork and bisu. zerg seems to have the highest number of consistent players right now which is why they're so represented in leagues. i guess you could try and argue to include fantasy but fantasy is easily the worst player out of all of these and he's so hilariously bad at times that even SKT fans just laugh. leta and sea choke way too hard and light is mediocre at tvt and terrible at tvp.

On June 16 2011 07:35 agarangu wrote:


So... it's just you. Well maybe after reading your thread more people will.

On June 16 2011 13:55 EpiK wrote:

What do you mean by consistent?

jd was in a 5 loss streak before his win against flash last night
calm has a habit of getting really clutch or just tilting hard
don't know enough about hydra
zero has issues with ZvZ in general despite his win against JD
soulkey's pretty solid but still makes big mistakes in vital matches

stork has just been doing pretty poorly lately
I'd say bisu and horang2 are pretty consistent as of late

I'd say there are pretty decent terrans who consistently win but they just get overshadowed by flash's dominance.