[MSL] Grand Final - Page 188

On June 16 2011 17:28 O.M.G wrote:
Starcraft is epic balanced right now...It all comes to skill and decision.

On June 16 2011 12:44 Womwomwom wrote:
People will always bring up Best as some nemesis Flash can never beat, because Flash always loses to him when he goes for a macro game.

They forget Best is completely one dimensional and completely useless outside of macro.

On June 16 2011 18:39 ArvickHero wrote:

This is a pretty bad oversimplifcation of Best.. it's true that his macro is his most famous skill, but he's also an effective strategist regarding builds, and has phenomenal game-sense in PvT along with some of the most exceptional PvT micro in the scene, such as this game vs Sea

Back to a more relevant topic, can't say that it would've been much different if Flash went standard every game. Flash is just too good imo, and would've taken it 3-0 either way. Plus, to criticize Flash for using strategic play allins every game is dumb, considering that these all took insane amounts of skill and strategic insight anyways. You can't stay at the top by being predictable.

On June 16 2011 18:39 ArvickHero wrote:

This is a pretty bad oversimplifcation of Best.. it's true that his macro is his most famous skill, but he's also an effective strategist regarding builds, and has phenomenal game-sense in PvT along with some of the most exceptional PvT micro in the scene, such as this game vs Sea

Back to a more relevant topic, can't say that it would've been much different if Flash went standard every game. Flash is just too good imo, and would've taken it 3-0 either way. Plus, to criticize Flash for using strategic play allins every game is dumb, considering that these all took insane amounts of skill and strategic insight anyways. You can't stay at the top by being predictable.

On June 16 2011 16:32 xarthaz wrote:

Way to not address the argument and instead appeal to a popularity fallacy :p

the trend of race performance remains quite stable

On JunNe 16 2011 13:32 Motivate wrote:
i Never understood why qqing was so acceptable in bw/sc2 and yet in other games if you qq about balance everyone will simply tell you to GTFO

also, how come Flash is the Only consistently good terran around? zerg has Jaedong, Calm, Hydra, ZerO and SoulKey while Protoss has Stork and Bisu. zerg seems to have the highest number of consistent players right now Which is why they're so represented in leagues. i guess you could try and argue to include Fantasy but Fantasy is easily the worst player out of all of these and he's so hilariously Bad at times that even SKT fans just laugh. Leta and Sea choke Way too hard and Light is mediocre at tvt and terrible at tvp.

On June 17 2011 02:02 Mumei wrote:


This post interested me - the bit about being Zerg being well-represented in leagues - so I went back and looked at the OSLs since the 2009 Batoo OSL and the MSLs since the Lost Saga MSL (essentially, since the beginning-ish of 2009). I thought it was pretty interesting:

Of the 104 available spots in the quarterfinals, Zerg had 43 of them represented by 15 players, Terran had 36 represented by 16 players, and Protoss had 25 spots represented by 11 players. Of the 52 available spots in the semifinals, Zerg held 28 of them represented by 13 players, Terran held 13 of them represented by 4 players, and Protoss held 11 of them represented by 7 players. Of the 26 spots available in the finals, Zerg had 12 of them represented by 7 players, Terran had 9 represented by 2 players, and Protoss had 5 spots represented by 5 players. And of the thirteen titles, Zerg players won 7 of them represented by 5 players (Jaedong (3), Calm, EffOrt, Hydra, Luxury) and Terran won 6 titles represented by 2 players (Flash (5), Fantasy).

Protoss just can't seem to catch a break. During that time period, only 3 Protoss players made it to the semifinals more than once - Stork did it three times, free did it twice, and Kal did it twice - and of those five times, only Stork managed to advance once. Bisu made it to the semifinals once, but didn't advance. Terran only have 4 players (Flash, Fantasy, Iris, and Light) who have made it to a semifinals in the last two and a half years, and only 2 that have made it to a finals (Flash, Fantasy), but at least they've got Flash to point to. Protoss have nothing.

On June 17 2011 02:02 Mumei wrote:


This post interested me - the bit about being Zerg being well-represented in leagues - so I went back and looked at the OSLs since the 2009 Batoo OSL and the MSLs since the Lost Saga MSL (essentially, since the beginning-ish of 2009). I thought it was pretty interesting:

Of the 104 available spots in the quarterfinals, Zerg had 43 of them represented by 15 players, Terran had 36 represented by 16 players, and Protoss had 25 spots represented by 11 players. Of the 52 available spots in the semifinals, Zerg held 28 of them represented by 13 players, Terran held 13 of them represented by 4 players, and Protoss held 11 of them represented by 7 players. Of the 26 spots available in the finals, Zerg had 12 of them represented by 7 players, Terran had 9 represented by 2 players, and Protoss had 5 spots represented by 5 players. And of the thirteen titles, Zerg players won 7 of them represented by 5 players (Jaedong (3), Calm, EffOrt, Hydra, Luxury) and Terran won 6 titles represented by 2 players (Flash (5), Fantasy).

Protoss just can't seem to catch a break. During that time period, only 3 Protoss players made it to the semifinals more than once - Stork did it three times, free did it twice, and Kal did it twice - and of those five times, only Stork managed to advance once. Bisu made it to the semifinals once, but didn't advance. Terran only have 4 players (Flash, Fantasy, Iris, and Light) who have made it to a semifinals in the last two and a half years, and only 2 that have made it to a finals (Flash, Fantasy), but at least they've got Flash to point to. Protoss have nothing.

On June 17 2011 00:29 Womwomwom wrote:

The point I was trying to make is that his strength has always been his macro and he has always been particularly vulnerable to planned early aggression builds where he can't stretch out his legs. Yes, he has some of the best attack timing of all protoss players, as seen in that snapshot of when he caught Sea completely out of position and countless others, but I'm just not seeing the same strength in the early phases of the game.

I'm fairly certain Flash has lost every game when using a more passive build and won every single game he's conducted a more aggressive build order.

On June 17 2011 03:07 kamikami wrote:
Protoss is the most beautiful race in the game, the spell casting race, playing Protoss is a beautiful art that provide the most entertaining moments in BW, with Reavers, shuttle, high templars, dark templar, arbiters... Protoss players are true artists, unlike Terran who is based on efficiency and firepower (and therefore boring), unlike Zerg who play to kill (and consume !!!). It's just natural that Protoss players are superior since we got the beauty and whoever is more beautiful is superior. Terran players say race doesn't matter only because they play the strongest race lol, there's no way to design 3 distinct and balanced races at the same time, balance is just a perception subjected to what people want it to be. A better criteria to consider is beauty, Protosses play a beautiful style and their leader is the most beautiful progamer ever walks the earth. Therefore we Protoss are proud of ourselves and deep down we know that we are better than others and results do not matter ha ha

On June 17 2011 03:07 kamikami wrote:
Protoss is the most beautiful race in the game, the spell casting race, playing Protoss is a beautiful art that provide the most entertaining moments in BW, with Reavers, shuttle, high templars, dark templar, arbiters... Protoss players are true artists, unlike Terran who is based on efficiency and firepower (and therefore boring), unlike Zerg who play to kill (and consume !!!). It's just natural that Protoss players are superior since we got the beauty and whoever is more beautiful is superior. Terran players say race doesn't matter only because they play the strongest race lol, there's no way to design 3 distinct and balanced races at the same time, balance is just a perception subjected to what people want it to be. A better criteria to consider is beauty, Protosses play a beautiful style and their leader is the most beautiful progamer ever walks the earth. Therefore we Protoss are proud of ourselves and deep down we know that we are better than others and results do not matter ha ha

On June 17 2011 02:44 Essbee wrote:This is actually damn interesting, thanks a lot for sharing!

On June 17 2011 03:48 Mumei wrote:


Thanks! Here are the lists. They're ranked by appearances first, then number of times they advanced, then alphabetically:

Quarterfinals Appearances

104 Available Spots

Zerg: 43 Spots / 15 Players
Terran: 36 Spots / 16 Players
Protoss: 25 Spots / 11 Players

+ Show Spoiler +


Semifinals Appearances

52 Available Spots

Zerg - 28 Spots / 13 Players
Terran - 13 Spots / 4 Players
Protoss - 11 Spots / 7 Players

+ Show Spoiler +


Finals Appearances

26 Available Spots

Zerg: 12 Spots / 7 Players
Terran: 9 Spots / 2 Players
Protoss: 5 Spots / 5 Players

+ Show Spoiler +


Titles

Flash - 5
Jaedong - 3
Calm - 1
EffOrt - 1
Fantasy - 1
Hydra - 1
Luxury - 1

On June 17 2011 01:16 dibbaN wrote:
Fun fact: Ro32 Group D thread had both more viewers and posts. Also: Those games were more exciting and intense. Worst final ever (even with badge considered).

On June 17 2011 05:30 purpose wrote:
Can anyone really say that protoss is equally balanced as terran and zerg? 0 titles say it all, 1 apperance in final also. It cant just be that all players who play protoss choke when it matters, thats just impossible.