soO manages to kill light's SCV scout, and light looks around for an overlord with his marines, but doesn't get it. Light sending out another scouting SCV, has his main gas up.
soO kills the second scouting SCV as soon as it gets to his base, but he's not doing anything out of the ordinary. One creep colony for soO, looks like about a control group of marines for light, acadamy is flashing, no medics seen yet. ebay starting up.
Light pushing out a bit with M&M, but soo threatens a ling backstab and light can't go too far. Light starting his turrets, camera finally shows the mutas. SoO has a drone expanding at bottom left.
Mutas kill a building turret, but not a lot of real damage yet, but they don't take a lot of hits either. soO getting more mutas and some lings, but loses 2 to a control group of rines with medic support for no damage.
Hydras out on the map don't know about lurker upgrade timing, but light 's basically walking over to soo's undefended third, and soo doesn't look like he'll be able to stop him.
Soo engages M&M ball with muta/ling, loses a lot of units, light's reinforcements come
On March 10 2011 17:05 thopol wrote: A new MSL season feels so nice. I love the group system in the MST too.
I hate it since order matters, and it shouldn't. Say Shine beats Sea and Stork beats Mind. Then Shine beats Stork in the winner's match. Shine now advances with a nice 2-0 seed. The thing is, those results happened in the last OSL, but Shine didn't advance because everyone in the group played each other so the order didn't matter.
Sorry for the derail but I'm anti all group stages that aren't round robin.
soO tries to poke at the main with mutaling, gets rebuffed waits for lurkers. 5 lurkers in light's natural, kill the only bunker, light in a bit of trouble here.
soO tries to push up the natural ramp with lurkers, loses a lot to tanks. Frst vessel is out, the natural lands as light cleans up the push with minimal damage.
Decent TvZ'er vs SKT Zerg lol. Obvious result. n.Die_soO lost a lot of shit due to mismicro, his muta harass did not stall Light enough, +1 attack timing hit n.Die_soO like a train hits a cow on its way.
On March 10 2011 17:05 thopol wrote: A new MSL season feels so nice. I love the group system in the MST too.
I hate it since order matters, and it shouldn't. Say Shine beats Sea and Stork beats Mind. Then Shine beats Stork in the winner's match. Shine now advances with a nice 2-0 seed. The thing is, those results happened in the last OSL, but Shine didn't advance because everyone in the group played each other so the order didn't matter.
Sorry for the derail but I'm anti all group stages that aren't round robin.
Yeah, it's not exactly fair. My preference is founded on how entertaining they are to watch.
Grape making his forge at his natural (what a surprise), killer just starting his natural. Pool is done, 3 eggs are morphing. Grape making nexus after forge, then making a cannon.
2 cannons for grape, it looks like 6 lings out on the map for killer, grape has 2 probes to make a tight wall in case killer run's by. Grape finishes his wall with a gateway, killer puts up a 3rd at top left natural.
Killer looks around his base for grape's probe scout, misses it completely. I think I saw a cybernetics core warping in, and it's the only building that makes sense right now, so I probably did. Killer making his lair, and the probe sees it.
Grape taking his fourth base at top left main, zealots from grape chasing llings away from his front. Sair scouts the fourth base, and I think I saw +1 air spinning on core, but I'm not posisive. Scourge chase grape's first sair back to base.
Templar archives out for grape, grape tries to poke at kiler's nat with a few speedlots, but sunken colonies make them move back. A handful of mutas out for killer, and I definitely see +1 air spinning on core. 3 sairs out at the moment, 1 stargate I think.
Hydralisk den is out for killer, mutalisks have center map control so killer can't run zealots at killer's third. Killer's 4 bases are starting to get a decent number of drones. Archon morphing for grape, grape putting out some gateways.
Mutas try to deal some damage to grape's ball, but get chased away by sairs. Scourge try to catch tem out of position, but only 1 sair goes down. killer making 4 extra hatcheries, he might not have enough units to hold this off properly.
Grape trying to attack killer's natural, but a simcity and lurker eggs block him. First lurkers come out for killer, don't see an observatory yet. Third is done for grape.
2 lings kills a probe that was in position to take a 4th for grape. Grape has a pretty decent sized army in mid, but doesn't havae any observers with it (2 templar though)
Grape has a shuttle out, does a pretty decent storm drop into killer's main. Killer responds by suiciding a group of cracklings at grape's third to kill the nexus.
Killer making a bunch of drones with his 5 extra hatcheries. Gotta get that macro going. DT drop into killer's main, no damage done yet, but DT still there. PLAGUUU on the corsairs.
Grape found an exposed evo chamber, kills it with DT's, and snags a couple of lings. DT's go too far, and they die. Grape's third back up, grape is on 4 bases, killer on 4 as well.
Killer taking a fifth base, grape loses his loaded shuttle trying to storm drop killer's third. Killer loses like 8 scourge by chasing sairs over 2 archons.
First real clash happening at one of killer's bases, killer loses pretty handliy, loses the hatch as well (I think it was his morphing 6th). Killer still has a pretty hydraling army coming in towards grape's 5th from top left.
Corsairs killing more scourge, storms kill some lings, templar shows 12 kills before it's brought down. Scourge kill something like 3 sairs, leaving only 1 up for grape. Grape's third is taking damage, but it's saved by grape.
Another engagement, pretty much in the middle of the map, killer getting run over by archons/goons/zealots/storms. Killer trying to take center left, DT's see it and attack the hatchery.
Grape getting a couple of reavers, and last I saw he had like 8 or so archons. Killer trying to expand to top center, grape sees it and wipes it out. New look at grapes's army seems to show 6 archons, but that wasn't the wole army, so I'm not sure.
If I didn't know better, I'd say this was 815, not killer. All macro, no control. He's got a lot of units, attacking at grape in mid, finally killing grape's army. Lots of archons and goons down.
Grape still on 5 bases, I can't tell which ones are mined out, but I think 3 of them are still mining. Killer is on 8 or so, probably 6 have minerals, but not all have drones, after a ncie storm drop by grape.
Looking at the minimap, killer controls about 3/4 of the territory, probably less after losing that battle to grape just now. Reavers pushing killer's base at top right.
Grape needs to learn lategame PvZ, reavers are kinda crucial here :/ their effectiveness doesn't decrease with plagues, as long as they have a supporting army. Instead he's just relying on archons, and sheer numbers will overwhelm him soon.
Zealots finally arive, but the nexus barely goes down. Grape moving his army back out into mid, it's not looking all that scary compared with the sheer number of bases that killer has. Grape rebuildling nexus at his fifth.
Killer still operating on mostly hydra/ling with a few lurkers, but there are some decent plagues. Grape moving in to kill center left, killer killing top right natural, which grape had tried to take.
Fighting all over the map, storms everywhere, plagues and reavers all over the place. This is getting really chaotic, but killer has a solid lead I think.
Grape moving in to kill top center, grape might be able to pull a win out of this. Storms doing a lot of damage. I took a screenshot of the minimap because it'll do a better job of live reporting than what I can do:
I really can't see killer come back from this. He has won 1 battle this entire game, and even though he's had a ton more bases for probably 20 or 30 minutes worth of time, that doesn't matter if you still can't win a battle. GG.
Killer only plays well under pressure. He was not pressured there since he could afford to lose. I fully expect him to rape whoever he's up against next.
On March 10 2011 18:05 CDRdude wrote: I really can't see killer come back from this. He has won 1 battle this entire game, and even though he's had a ton more bases for probably 20 or 30 minutes worth of time, that doesn't matter if you still can't win a battle. GG.
The strange thing is that he sat on an econ advantage for 20 or 30 minutes without macroing up a big army. He would get armies together to counter, which he did patiently and well, but it seemed like he didn't ever put his full resources into controlling the center.
On March 10 2011 18:07 XinRan wrote: Wow logged in just to reiterate that that game was so so bad. Worst game I have watched in a very long time. DO NOT WATCH THIS GAME.
I don't agree. It was nowhere near top-level play, but a game can be entertaining even when there are a lot of mistakes.
What the hell - last I was watching Killer seemed to be doing ok, and it seemed justified since he's been doing pretty well in the proleague lately, and when I come back Grape has won and everyone is saying he is horrible again. Guess Killer can only live up to "mini-Jaedong" for so long.
Killer seemed to be ahead in bases and economy, but he seemed to just let Grape walk around with his army and slowly crawl his way to an advantage.
Ugh, the most annoying games are when players have an obvious advantage and squander it with sheer incompetence. If Killer switched off with Jaedong or Hydra when he had the advantage, the game would've ended much earlier.
It was a good game, even though the same storm vs. sauron zerg battles persisted for a while. It was interesting to see Grape's bases get busted and nearly lose, but at the same time that pimp DT and the hero archon were the true heroes of this game. Killer kept missing plagues or hitting only 1-2 zealots for 150 energy, so that was pretty fail. His hivetech consisted of cracklings and fail plagues or ineffective swarms. Need 200/200 ultraling flanking to overwhelm a protoss army like that, not sauron into storms :/
On March 10 2011 18:11 Graham wrote: What the hell - last I was watching Killer seemed to be doing ok, and it seemed justified since he's been doing pretty well in the proleague lately, and when I come back Grape has won and everyone is saying he is horrible again. Guess Killer can only live up to "mini-Jaedong" for so long.
Nah, his macro and micro were fine. And you can't really do much when 10+ storms rape your army. He should have dropped Grape's main or something like that instead of challenging him head-on(with flanks) most of the time. Ah yeah...or go with a different army composition.
hi mr op, in case you didnt already know this, you can put your recommended games polls in multiple places at once for more exposure by copying the poll code and tags, i.e.:
Poll: Would you recommend set 2?
Yes (16)
50%
No, seriously. Save yourself 40 minutes of pain. (13)
41%
No (3)
9%
32 total votes
Your vote: Would you recommend set 2?
(Vote): Yes (Vote): No (Vote): No, seriously. Save yourself 40 minutes of pain.
Killer needed to use that extra economy to prepare a defiler drop on the cannon'd 3:00. Instead he kept trying to storm the front door to no avail. Grape had some terrific storms this game and played really efficiently with his units.
On March 10 2011 18:11 Graham wrote: What the hell - last I was watching Killer seemed to be doing ok, and it seemed justified since he's been doing pretty well in the proleague lately, and when I come back Grape has won and everyone is saying he is horrible again. Guess Killer can only live up to "mini-Jaedong" for so long.
Nah, his macro and micro were fine. And you can't really do much when 10+ storms rape your army. He should have dropped Grape's main or something like that instead of challenging him head-on(with flanks) most of the time. Ah yeah...or go with a different army composition.
No, Killer's micro was *not* fine. There's a reason for it when each storm kills a control group of units. Repeatedly whittling down Grape's army would have worked fine, but Killer didn't engage efficiently.
On March 10 2011 18:17 hellbound wrote: OR make cows and win.
He had so few units at any given time so I was just waiting for a ton of cows to bust out. I really thought he was saving that gas.
Same here, I mean cows under swarm are so imba for protoss unless he has 8 reavers with his army or something. But I don't think he even built a cavern. Did he make a bet or something?
I'm surprised nobody here has pointed out the hydras vs. zealot under swarm fail (hydras don't damage zeals under swarm at all). He sacked his entire army to kill the nexus at 3, which was rebuilt in a matter of minutes. A simple drop with lurkerling under swarm would've done the same thing, except with far more efficiency.
On March 10 2011 18:11 Graham wrote: What the hell - last I was watching Killer seemed to be doing ok, and it seemed justified since he's been doing pretty well in the proleague lately, and when I come back Grape has won and everyone is saying he is horrible again. Guess Killer can only live up to "mini-Jaedong" for so long.
Nah, his macro and micro were fine. And you can't really do much when 10+ storms rape your army. He should have dropped Grape's main or something like that instead of challenging him head-on(with flanks) most of the time. Ah yeah...or go with a different army composition.
No, Killer's micro was *not* fine. There's a reason for it when each storm kills a control group of units. Repeatedly whittling down Grape's army would have worked fine, but Killer didn't engage efficiently.
He dodged as good as he was able to but when there are 3 storms on your army at the same time for several seconds you can't really micro everything. And you can't engage a Protoss army which has 6-8 Templars with Sauron Zerg efficiently. That just doesn't work.
On March 10 2011 18:17 hellbound wrote: OR make cows and win.
He had so few units at any given time so I was just waiting for a ton of cows to bust out. I really thought he was saving that gas.
Same here, I mean cows under swarm are so imba for protoss unless he has 8 reavers with his army or something. But I don't think he even built a cavern. Did he make a bet or something?
Zergs do this often in late game. Ultras have limitations, are less cost effective than cracklings except against splash damage and pure defilerling/lurkling is better in many situations
On March 10 2011 18:07 XinRan wrote: Wow logged in just to reiterate that that game was so so bad. Worst game I have watched in a very long time. DO NOT WATCH THIS GAME.
I don't agree. It was nowhere near top-level play, but a game can be entertaining even when there are a lot of mistakes.
I agree that some points were entertaining... but most of it was not. I'm not sure I can justify sitting through 40 minutes of mostly uninteresting play to justify the few exciting points in the game... That's just me though. If you're into the silver lining, go for it.
Actually this group was just... bad. n.Die_soO mismicroed all the way down, Killer played like the opposite of his last month, Light's TvZ was better than OK, Grape I don't know anything about how he won, damn. They are making me regret watching.
On March 10 2011 18:30 Djagulingu wrote: Actually this group was just... bad. n.Die_soO mismicroed all the way down, Killer played like the opposite of his last month, Light's TvZ was better than OK, Grape I don't know anything about how he won, damn. They are making me regret watching.
Then don't watch yo~
Light almost kills Grape's 4th's nexus, saved at 6 hp or so... and a vulture raid at the 3rd kills a ton of probes.
On March 10 2011 18:11 Graham wrote: What the hell - last I was watching Killer seemed to be doing ok, and it seemed justified since he's been doing pretty well in the proleague lately, and when I come back Grape has won and everyone is saying he is horrible again. Guess Killer can only live up to "mini-Jaedong" for so long.
Nah, his macro and micro were fine. And you can't really do much when 10+ storms rape your army. He should have dropped Grape's main or something like that instead of challenging him head-on(with flanks) most of the time. Ah yeah...or go with a different army composition.
No, Killer's micro was *not* fine. There's a reason for it when each storm kills a control group of units. Repeatedly whittling down Grape's army would have worked fine, but Killer didn't engage efficiently.
He dodged as good as he was able to but when there are 3 storms on your army at the same time for several seconds you can't really micro everything. And you can't engage a Protoss army which has 6-8 Templars with Sauron Zerg efficiently. That just doesn't work.
I must be spoiled by the way Jaedong uses his units.
If Grape's last game vs. Leta is any indication, Light is in for some massive macro from Grape. He barely bothered to micro his units in that game, I thought it was very entertaining.
On March 10 2011 18:30 Djagulingu wrote: Actually this group was just... bad. n.Die_soO mismicroed all the way down, Killer played like the opposite of his last month, Light's TvZ was better than OK, Grape I don't know anything about how he won, damn. They are making me regret watching.
This game might get good, Light pushing and Grape countering.
Light is hardly what you'd call a good or even decent TvPer. If that changes, he'll be a very formidable player.
Notice that there are wins over Free, Kal, Best, Brave and Bisu in there. Not that he's a good TvPer but if he really needs to, he can get the job done.
Edit: It also helps that he doesn't perceive Empire of the Sun as a "protoss map" so no mental block.
I held my breath for the 6 hp nexus just like I jumped when Grape dropped his reaver onto the mine. Light may be "boring" for some but today he really bared his fangs :D
Light is hardly what you'd call a good or even decent TvPer. If that changes, he'll be a very formidable player.
Notice that there are wins over Free, Kal, Best, Brave and Bisu in there. Not that he's a good TvPer but if he really needs to, he can get the job done.
Light is hardly what you'd call a good or even decent TvPer. If that changes, he'll be a very formidable player.
Notice that there are wins over Free, Kal, Best, Brave and Bisu in there. Not that he's a good TvPer but if he really needs to, he can get the job done.
People say Light sucks against Toss but he's always been alright when he gets to do his big macro thing. I mean not good enough to be a great macro TvPer like Really or something, but atleast moderately competent.
He is by no means a consistently good TvPer, but he has a wheelhouse that he can hit where he can snake completely solid wins with very few mistakes.
Light is hardly what you'd call a good or even decent TvPer. If that changes, he'll be a very formidable player.
Notice that there are wins over Free, Kal, Best, Brave and Bisu in there. Not that he's a good TvPer but if he really needs to, he can get the job done.
On March 10 2011 18:50 TwoToneTerran wrote: People say Light sucks against Toss but he's always been alright when he gets to do his big macro thing. I mean not good enough to be a great macro TvPer like Really or something, but atleast moderately competent.
He is by no means a consistently good TvPer, but he has a wheelhouse that he can hit where he can snake completely solid wins with very few mistakes.
Light is hardly what you'd call a good or even decent TvPer. If that changes, he'll be a very formidable player.
Notice that there are wins over Free, Kal, Best, Brave and Bisu in there. Not that he's a good TvPer but if he really needs to, he can get the job done.
Light is hardly what you'd call a good or even decent TvPer. If that changes, he'll be a very formidable player.
Notice that there are wins over Free, Kal, Best, Brave and Bisu in there. Not that he's a good TvPer but if he really needs to, he can get the job done.
On March 10 2011 18:50 TwoToneTerran wrote: People say Light sucks against Toss but he's always been alright when he gets to do his big macro thing. I mean not good enough to be a great macro TvPer like Really or something, but atleast moderately competent.
He is by no means a consistently good TvPer, but he has a wheelhouse that he can hit where he can snake completely solid wins with very few mistakes.
Yup. My point exactly.
I don't agree with your dismissal of numbers, it is painfully obvious that Light is straight bad at TvP by purely looking at the numbers, but he could be much worse if he didn't win sometimes, and the way he wins can beat anyone on a good day. It's kind of like Stork's PvZ.
When he wins he looks more competent in TvP than he is, when his style does not work on many maps and if he's forced to do anything that isn't a "sit back on 3 base and attack with 2-1 and hope the protoss doesn't execute an excellent push break" he'll probably lose. It's why he fucking blows against carriers, because the precludes that he didn't win with some 200/200 push.
Light is hardly what you'd call a good or even decent TvPer. If that changes, he'll be a very formidable player.
Notice that there are wins over Free, Kal, Best, Brave and Bisu in there. Not that he's a good TvPer but if he really needs to, he can get the job done.
Light is hardly what you'd call a good or even decent TvPer. If that changes, he'll be a very formidable player.
Notice that there are wins over Free, Kal, Best, Brave and Bisu in there. Not that he's a good TvPer but if he really needs to, he can get the job done.
Light has a very low ELO and a 35% winrate since the start of 2010, there's nothing else to talk about here. By your argument, Perfectman must be great at PvP because he defeated Horang2 once. Flukes happen, consistent results require something else.
It's just really weird how bad he is at TvP when his other two matchups are S-class.
On March 10 2011 18:50 TwoToneTerran wrote: People say Light sucks against Toss but he's always been alright when he gets to do his big macro thing. I mean not good enough to be a great macro TvPer like Really or something, but atleast moderately competent.
He is by no means a consistently good TvPer, but he has a wheelhouse that he can hit where he can snake completely solid wins with very few mistakes.
On March 10 2011 18:50 TwoToneTerran wrote: People say Light sucks against Toss but he's always been alright when he gets to do his big macro thing. I mean not good enough to be a great macro TvPer like Really or something, but atleast moderately competent.
He is by no means a consistently good TvPer, but he has a wheelhouse that he can hit where he can snake completely solid wins with very few mistakes.
On March 10 2011 18:56 kuroshiroi wrote: Anyway, on to ZvZ. Did anybody catch builds?
I think it was 12h (soo) vs 12p (killer)
lolwut, soo must've made some terrible mistakes then
If you call moving out with inferior zergling count with lair first against speed first (after speed was done for both sides ofc) instead of waiting for mutas a terrible mistake, you're dead on.
On March 10 2011 18:50 TwoToneTerran wrote: People say Light sucks against Toss but he's always been alright when he gets to do his big macro thing. I mean not good enough to be a great macro TvPer like Really or something, but atleast moderately competent.
He is by no means a consistently good TvPer, but he has a wheelhouse that he can hit where he can snake completely solid wins with very few mistakes.
true but really's tvp is horrible. lol
It's not horrible...have you ever seen his games?
I feel like Light and Really are great at playing standard but fall apart too easily to pressure. Really showed some pretty good non-standard play with optic flare once but other than that those two are the most predictable A-team terrans (and both on the same team now)
On March 10 2011 18:50 TwoToneTerran wrote: People say Light sucks against Toss but he's always been alright when he gets to do his big macro thing. I mean not good enough to be a great macro TvPer like Really or something, but atleast moderately competent.
He is by no means a consistently good TvPer, but he has a wheelhouse that he can hit where he can snake completely solid wins with very few mistakes.
true but really's tvp is horrible. lol
It's not horrible...have you ever seen his games?
yes.. and i honestly can't remember the last time he's beaten a protoss... his tvp record in proleague is horrendous.. i just feel like he doesn't know what to do in tvp's. i think he's still a really great player but tvp is one of his weaker matchups
On March 10 2011 18:56 kuroshiroi wrote: Anyway, on to ZvZ. Did anybody catch builds?
I think it was 12h (soo) vs 12p (killer)
lolwut, soo must've made some terrible mistakes then
If you call moving out with inferior zergling count with lair first against speed first (after speed was done ofc) instead of waiting for mutas a terrible mistake, you're dead on.
On March 10 2011 18:56 kuroshiroi wrote: Anyway, on to ZvZ. Did anybody catch builds?
I think it was 12h (soo) vs 12p (killer)
I can swear that I saw both 12 hatch.
It was definitely 12pool 11 gas from killer.
My bad then.
He checked the ling count before moving out, problem was killer was hiding 8-10 lings. He probably expected Killer to have a faster spire, what he didn't know was that Killer took 2 drones off gas after speed and his spire was actually slower, mindgames.
He checked the ling count before moving out, problem was killer was hiding 8-10 lings. He probably expected Killer to have a faster spire, what he didn't know was that Killer took 2 drones off gas after speed and his spire was actually slower, mindgames.
seemed extremely similar to the s2/zero game from proleague the other day, except this time it was the skt player getting rolled.
He checked the ling count before moving out, problem was killer was hiding 8-10 lings. He probably expected Killer to have a faster spire, what he didn't know was that Killer took 2 drones off gas after speed and his spire was actually slower, mindgames.
seemed extremely similar to the s2/zero game from proleague the other day, except this time it was the skt player getting rolled.
Yeah it did. The standard play seems to be the 12pooler betting on his faster spire and getting a sunken at his nat to defend before mutas, while the 12 hatter uses his faster second hat to try and outmuscle him with lings. So yeah that was smart play. Let's see if he can redeem his ZvP in the rematch.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zJ7G1.jpg)
Light <Circuit Breaker> 
n.Die_soO
Grape <Circuit Breaker> 
. gogogo MiniJaedong![[image loading]](http://img1.fomos.kr/board/photo/1299681417_1.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img1.fomos.kr/board/photo/1299680779_1.jpg)
Lurkers finish morphing there, and grape backs off. Heading for the third now?
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/jyc14.png)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/W2cih.png)
