On January 25 2011 02:52 rotinegg wrote: SK Telecom T1 group interview "Happy to see a huge crowd"
Q How do you feel A By.Sun=I'm happy that our team won. However I am regretful that I only got 1 kill. Fantasy=I didn't wanna lose a game before the OSL finals, but I lost in the last match and this match as well, so I am regretful. I'm still happy that our team won, though. Bisu=It's been a while since I've been our team's anchor, and it's good that I was able to close it out. I feel like I did my part. It's been a while since three of us contributed to our team's victory, and it feel's good.
Q You started off with a disadvantage early on. A By.Sun=In the first game, I was flustered by my opponent's harassment, but won by having a much larger force. I am confident in my macro abilities, and I think that's what won me the game.
Q In most games you respond poorly to your opponent's harass, but turn the game around through macro. Any particular reason A By.Sun=I usually defend harass well but in this game I lost alot of observers so I was unable to defend properly. I am not happy with my performance today. I'm not sure why I am good at macroing, but I guess I just am.
Q You killed Neo.G_Soulkey and free to record 2 kills. A Fantasy= I've never won against Neo.G_Soulkey so I am happy just by the fact that I won. In my game against free I was able to show my vulture harass for the first time in a long while, so I am happy.
Q Your early game wasn't good A Bisu=I wasn't set up completely before the game started. So I kept getting this bad feeling that my game wasn't going to go well, and I was right on. If he had just defended my zealots properly, I would have been at a disadvantage. I was relieved that I was able to turn the game around with my corsairs hunting down ovies left and right
Q Your wraith control was superb A Fantasy=It's easy to use wraiths on the map Fortress. Even in practice I had a lot of success with wraiths, so I was confident that I would win the game today. Even though I don't use wraiths in broadcasted matches often, my win rate with them during practice was so high [that I was sure I would do well in today's game]
Q You were off to a bad start [same question???] A Bisu=I was nervous while playing so I wasn't able to perform well. It happened last time I had to play Flash, and just in general when I go out as the anchor.
Q You are on a 13 win streak in ProLeague [again!!] A Bisu=My team comes before my win-streak records. However it did occur to me that if I continued my win-streak, our team would be able to keep winning in ProLeague too(Laughs). I don't have a burning desire for the most-wins title, so I just played my games, but somehow I'm far ahead of 2nd place. If I keep playing without thinking about the title much, I feel like I can keep my position as 1st place.
Q This season alot of protoss players performed an all-kill. It feels like you were gunning for it, as you were sent out first. A By.Sun=I went out with the mentality of at least getting one kill, but after only getting 1 kill, it didn't feel that great. I want to get at least 2 kills now.
Q Stork lost today too. You must be relieved. A Fantasy=Even though I lost, I saw that Stork lost too. It is relieving indeed(Laughs).
Q Woongjin (the company) sent 200 of their new-hires to the match. Did that affect your performance at all. A By.Sun=I feel better when alot of people are watching, so it didn't really matter. Fantasy=Yea, it felt like the finals when I heard all the Woongjin new-hires banging their cheering devices. I think in the finals [of the OSL] alot of Stork fans will come out, so I thought of this as a good mockup for the actual match. I wish this many fans would come out every match. I hope SKT1 sends their new-hires too. Bisu=I was pressured when we were down 1:2. They applauded so loudly everytime they were ahead, so it was nerve racking, but it was fun at the same time.
Q Any last words A Bisu=I thank all my fans who stayed despite being late. It's regretful that I have no individual league games left at this stage, but I hope my fans will wait for me. I will practice hard to perform well in the next individual leagues.
Bisu interview after SKT/ACE game: Q: Flash said "I hope Bisu stops allkilling." A: Even in other interviews or on NateOn chat, Flash would say "Stop winning." However if you look at the big picture, it's harder for me to earn wins than Flash. It was weird hearing him say that. I thought he didn't care much for the most-wins title.
Poll: Who are you cheering for?
Bisu (111)
62%
I just hope someone can kill Bisu. (29)
16%
SK Telecom T1 (23)
13%
Woongjin Stars (16)
9%
179 total votes
Your vote: Who are you cheering for?
(Vote): SK Telecom T1 (Vote): Woongjin Stars (Vote): Bisu (Vote): I just hope someone can kill Bisu.
Poll: Who will win?
Bisu will continue his murderous rampage. (119)
73%
SK Telecom T1 (30)
19%
Woongjin Stars (13)
8%
162 total votes
Your vote: Who will win?
(Vote): SK Telecom T1 (Vote): Woongjin Stars (Vote): Bisu will continue his murderous rampage.
Image styling ripped shamelessly from inspired by disciple.
I personally want other players to play and win (considering I have 3 SKT players + no Bisu on my FPL [read: I fail with FPL]) but more power to Bisu if he can keep the all-kills alive. Though I like both teams and hope for some good matches.
Ahh, this match is so late, so I don't think I can watch it... But if Woongjin somehow wins against SKT, then I won't mind, since they're one out of the 3 teams I don't mind defeating SKT. x] (The other teams I don't mind are MBC and ACE.) Woongjin really needs a win, but gooo SKT~
When Bisu AK's indiscriminately, it will be either with his team sucking or not being played. I wonder what effect that will have to SKT when SWL is over. If they all slumped because of that, it wouldn't be the least bit funny.
I like bisu, I just like a lot of people on skt more. Go Doh Jae Wook! (although you will probably not play because of the doh-sairs, and because park likes sun way too much.)
On January 24 2011 09:46 hacklebeast wrote: I like bisu, I just like a lot of people on skt more. Go Doh Jae Wook! (although you will probably not play because of the doh-sairs, and because park likes sun way too much.)
Best and Kwanro have been benched since forever.
They must be going through that secret special training Bisu went under.
On January 24 2011 09:46 hacklebeast wrote: I like bisu, I just like a lot of people on skt more. Go Doh Jae Wook! (although you will probably not play because of the doh-sairs, and because park likes sun way too much.)
Best and Kwanro have been benched since forever.
They must be going through that secret special training Bisu went under.
The kind of training that involves laying on a beach in Thailand?
On January 24 2011 09:46 hacklebeast wrote: I like bisu, I just like a lot of people on skt more. Go Doh Jae Wook! (although you will probably not play because of the doh-sairs, and because park likes sun way too much.)
Best and Kwanro have been benched since forever.
They must be going through that secret special training Bisu went under.
The kind of training that involves laying on a beach in Thailand?
On January 24 2011 09:46 hacklebeast wrote: I like bisu, I just like a lot of people on skt more. Go Doh Jae Wook! (although you will probably not play because of the doh-sairs, and because park likes sun way too much.)
when there's Zero/SK/CH on the other team, sending Best seems suicidal (unless they're already cleared out). I'm betting we'll be seeing Zergs and Bisu being sent by SKT.
Best's best opportunity to be sent out was vs KT and MBC, and he fucked it up both times :\
On January 24 2011 09:46 hacklebeast wrote: I like bisu, I just like a lot of people on skt more. Go Doh Jae Wook! (although you will probably not play because of the doh-sairs, and because park likes sun way too much.)
when there's Zero/SK/CH on the other team, sending Best seems suicidal (unless they're already cleared out). I'm betting we'll be seeing Zergs and Bisu being sent by SKT.
Best's best opportunity to be sent out was vs KT and MBC, and he fucked it up both times :\
I know I'm still going to root for him though. I don't think skt will use a plethora of zergs. Fantasy will probably be scheduled to play (if bisu fails his all kill) and somehow I would not be surprised to see an early appearance by ssak. One, maybe two zerg.
Bisu needs to be sent first this is bisu's chance to ak a primarily zerg team and pass jaedong's vs zerg elo. Go Bisu! If bisu doesnt ak then, go fantasy
On January 24 2011 09:46 hacklebeast wrote: I like bisu, I just like a lot of people on skt more. Go Doh Jae Wook! (although you will probably not play because of the doh-sairs, and because park likes sun way too much.)
Best and Kwanro have been benched since forever.
They must be going through that secret special training Bisu went under.
The kind of training that involves laying on a beach in Thailand?
Thailand stimulator baby.
Comes with 18+ version.
Simulator? o_O
Hoping for Bisu v Zero in a BvZ to see what we've been denied in MSL
On January 24 2011 09:46 hacklebeast wrote: I like bisu, I just like a lot of people on skt more. Go Doh Jae Wook! (although you will probably not play because of the doh-sairs, and because park likes sun way too much.)
when there's Zero/SK/CH on the other team, sending Best seems suicidal (unless they're already cleared out). I'm betting we'll be seeing Zergs and Bisu being sent by SKT.
Best's best opportunity to be sent out was vs KT and MBC, and he fucked it up both times :\
sending best first instead of as a T sniper was pretty stupid tho, u gotta admit. Especially since he's one of the few players in the game that probably wouldn't have absolutely horrid odds against flash (no matter how bad of a stomp that last game was @_@)
On January 24 2011 09:46 hacklebeast wrote: I like bisu, I just like a lot of people on skt more. Go Doh Jae Wook! (although you will probably not play because of the doh-sairs, and because park likes sun way too much.)
Best and Kwanro have been benched since forever.
They must be going through that secret special training Bisu went under.
The kind of training that involves laying on a beach in Thailand?
Thailand stimulator baby.
Comes with 18+ version.
Simulator? o_O
Hoping for Bisu v Zero in a BvZ to see what we've been denied in MSL
On January 24 2011 11:51 night terrors wrote: Biggest threat to Bisu on the Stars is Zero i think.
One victory over Stork and everybody is hailing Zero as a ZvP god.
Perhaps one should look back into his past vP records prior to deciding.
Totally man, but consider the rest of the team? One fallen and old dragon, Free is hardly as much of a threat as Zero, NeoG.Bonjwa still has to tweak his pvz, Really still haunts Artosis dreams as the next best player that never was. Who else? Crazy-Hydra? Gimme a break.
On January 24 2011 11:51 night terrors wrote: Biggest threat to Bisu on the Stars is Zero i think.
One victory over Stork and everybody is hailing Zero as a ZvP god.
Perhaps one should look back into his past vP records prior to deciding.
Well ZerO did play amazingly against Stork. And he's also Bisu's nemesis, with a 4-2 record against him. And that includes the infamous game where ZerO used queens against Bisu, which reinforced his slump back then.
I do want Bisu to all-kill, but ZerO is the biggest threat for sure.
On January 24 2011 11:51 night terrors wrote: Biggest threat to Bisu on the Stars is Zero i think.
One victory over Stork and everybody is hailing Zero as a ZvP god.
Perhaps one should look back into his past vP records prior to deciding.
because Zero has traditionally been very strong vP and Bisu?
Zero is just streaky as hell, so its a coinflip in how he performs sometimes. He does hold the longest ZvP winstreak record I think (TLPD is wrong because it counts GOM)
On January 24 2011 10:45 BLinD-RawR wrote: I will put my birthday curse on Bisu that he will not continue his murderous rampage.
Can two Bisu fans with a birthday today get together and wish he continues his murderous rampage, one to nullify BLinD-RawR's curse and the other to strengthen the power of the BeeSuit.
On January 24 2011 11:51 night terrors wrote: Biggest threat to Bisu on the Stars is Zero i think.
One victory over Stork and everybody is hailing Zero as a ZvP god.
Perhaps one should look back into his past vP records prior to deciding.
Totally man, but consider the rest of the team? One fallen and old dragon, Free is hardly as much of a threat as Zero, NeoG.Bonjwa still has to tweak his pvz, Really still haunts Artosis dreams as the next best player that never was. Who else? Crazy-Hydra? Gimme a break.
Does ZerO vs Bisu on heartbreak ridge ring a bell? And it's true Woongjin has been inexplicably slumping as of late, but if they're in form they capable of giving SKT a run for their money.
Voted for SKT in both polls. Will never vote for Bisu ahead of SKT.
BeSt needs to get out of his slump, and Fantasy needs to find some consistency, b/c the much vaunted depth of SKT is looking pathetic atm. FBB will always be the core of this team, and atm only Bisu is consistently playing at the level you'd expect.
With the opponent's line-up it's probably unlikely that BeSt will get an opportunity to regain some form, but here's hoping....
Stars being on top of their game can be a scary adversary.. But if they carry on with their recent performance, we wont have a problem walking all over them (ok Best n Fanta arent on their best form either, but Bisu pwnz :p)
On January 24 2011 19:25 Scaramanga wrote: Really where have you been? Just amazing multitask, vultures harrasing 2 mineral lines so good
and then, Idiot Really shows up by deciding to push out when there was a massive army heading his way
Im guessing this happens alot in practice games between sun and fantasy lol God really, where was the scouting, could have avoided losing two bases and his whole army
Rain still showing his inexperience by not scouting the top left secret expo, or clearing out the bottom left to expand. It's alright though, this guy got some sick micro haha
Really didn't have time to plant mines, his base was in shambles and his army was gone. I'm surprised he even managed to make that much stuff considering.
I don't follow SKT too closely, but does it seem to anyone else as though Sun is slowly replacing BeSt? This would be a shame, I greatly enjoy watching Best when he's on form
On January 24 2011 19:42 DropBear wrote: I don't follow SKT too closely, but does it seem to anyone else as though Sun is slowly replacing BeSt? This would be a shame, I greatly enjoy watching Best when he's on form
This is the 16th start he's been given this season so the coach clearly believes in him anyway
On January 24 2011 19:42 DropBear wrote: I don't follow SKT too closely, but does it seem to anyone else as though Sun is slowly replacing BeSt? This would be a shame, I greatly enjoy watching Best when he's on form
This is the 16th start he's been given this season so the coach clearly believes in him anyway
Perhaps I am writing off Best too quickly. Is the transfer period only in off-season? Maybe if Sun overtakes him, Best could go to WeMade so we finally have a decent toss
Good to see you in a LR btw moktira, thanks for all the uploads you do
On January 24 2011 19:42 DropBear wrote: I don't follow SKT too closely, but does it seem to anyone else as though Sun is slowly replacing BeSt? This would be a shame, I greatly enjoy watching Best when he's on form
This is the 16th start he's been given this season so the coach clearly believes in him anyway
Perhaps I am writing off Best too quickly. Is the transfer period only in off-season? Maybe if Sun overtakes him, Best could go to WeMade so we finally have a decent toss
Good to see you in a LR btw moktira, thanks for all the uploads you do
Sorry it's Sun who's had 16 starts this season, so you might be right, but I doubt there'll be a transfer.
defiluh! swarm push taking down the center expo will toss be able to hold it? not looking like he has enough storm also he walled himself off with an archon morph looks like the turning point the nexus is still up but for how much longer? lots of ht reinforcing
On January 24 2011 20:03 hauton wrote: Sun is amassing quite a Archon ball though, he still has a chance unless SoulKey just turns Beast Mode Macro on him.
It was over when SK secured 4 base 4 gas . This isn't Hogil to fuck up after that and SK and Zero are especially scary if they can take 4 bases , because their large army control is second to none .
On January 24 2011 20:07 mustaju wrote: Fantasy next please. It's always nice to see him lose to Soulkey.
Ultra consume reprise? :D
I'd like it 1-uped. Hero recently consumed (unirradiated) defilers in front of Leta's army, So I'd like to see that. And infested command centers. And a crying Bisu.
Didn't Finale was the one who made GSL live report threads without updating or even making a good looking OP ? It was even closed, that was a first... Apologies if I mistake you for someone else, I'm not sure :o edit : seems I'm in fact mistaken
On January 24 2011 20:12 MrCon wrote: Didn't Finale was the one who made GSL live report threads without updating or even making a good looking OP ? It was even closed, that was a first... Apologies if I mistake you for someone else, I'm not sure :o
I don't think so, though I don't follow SC2 from what I can see Finale mostly just does SKT1 LR threads, though he's fairly new to it he's normally very efficient at updating and always always makes really good looking OPs so I doubt that was him and I'd say something unforeseen happened here and that's why he's not updating
On January 24 2011 20:12 MrCon wrote: Didn't Finale was the one who made GSL live report threads without updating or even making a good looking OP ? It was even closed, that was a first... Apologies if I mistake you for someone else, I'm not sure :o
I don't think so, though I don't follow SC2 from what I can see Finale mostly just does SKT1 LR threads, though he's fairly new to it he's normally very efficient at updating and always always makes really good looking OPs so I doubt that was him and I'd say something unforeseen happened here and that's why he's not updating
soulkey making a creep colony in base, spire going up already looks like we're gonna see a spore game; will it go to hive? soulkey lets a ling into his base
soulkey's mutas pop into great's main, take out the gas and a spore and run away s2's lings force a cancel of soulkey's expansion attempt at 10 and kill the drone
evo chamber morphing for soulkey using lings to counter s2 as he tries to move out with mutas spores going up this is a zvz clinic very impressive to win with overgas against 12h
On January 24 2011 20:37 aimaimaim wrote: w0w .. that was good ZvZ!
Seriously? The only good part of the entire match was when S2 got his ass handed to him by doing absolutely nothing the entire game.
you need to appreciate the games more than the teams :D
I do appreciate the game, but when you watch S2 defend an early 9pool rush and have 2 base vs 1, but still decide to sit on his ass and get his game handed to him.
On January 24 2011 20:37 aimaimaim wrote: w0w .. that was good ZvZ!
Seriously? The only good part of the entire match was when S2 got his ass handed to him by doing absolutely nothing the entire game.
you need to appreciate the games more than the teams :D
I do appreciate the game, but when you watch S2 defend an early 9pool rush and have 2 base vs 1, but still decide to sit on his ass and get his game handed to him.
SK had superior muta and his nat expo wasn't that far behind, with all the spores and lings s2 made. that was bound to happen, the only fatal move s2 made was that expo far away.
SK kind of choked with those Wraiths . Not taking a third not macroing ...I can't bealive this . How come everyone desides to not defend against Fantasy's Wrights and just gives the game to leftover Wrights .
Some sexy sexy wraith micro from Fantasy at times in that game. Pretty to watch.
Nice game-sense from Fantasy in that set as well. Pressured SK into making a massive sim city and prevented him macroing, then dropped back and held what he had. Risk-free, percentage play. GG.
On January 24 2011 21:05 raga4ka wrote: SK kind of choked with those Wraiths . Not taking a third not macroing ...
he couldnt take a 3rd those wairth would have taken the drone out
You can excort it with Muta overloard it aint't that hard ... After a beautiful burrow defence he played like a noob . Build like 1 spore colony didn't bother to defend at all vs Wraiths ... Didn't try taking a third . Fantasy was almost mind out in his main in the end .
On January 24 2011 21:07 PineappleLumpsToss wrote: Some sexy sexy wraith micro from Fantasy at times in that game. Pretty to watch.
Nice game-sense from Fantasy in that set as well. Pressured SK into making a massive sim city and prevented him macroing, then dropped back and held what he had. Risk-free, percentage play. GG.
Definitely not risk-free - I could see this failing horribly in the hands of a T who makes a single mistake with his Wraiths. Excellently executed by Fantasy, but it's a nervewracking strategy.
Even though I am a huge Bisu fan, I really hope SKT can close out this match without needing him. Last thing I would want is to turn SKT to another OZ.
On January 24 2011 21:00 Holgerius wrote: Fantasy is microing so damn well in this game.
Uhh there was nothing spectacular about the micro. It only seems that way to the unknowledgable. You see, mutalisks 3 range against wraiths 5 basically makes it impossible for zerg to kill any wraiths if the terran knows what hes doing.
On January 24 2011 21:00 Holgerius wrote: Fantasy is microing so damn well in this game.
Uhh there was nothing spectacular about the micro. It only seems that way to the unknowledgable. You see, mutalisks 3 range against wraiths 5 basically makes it impossible for zerg to kill any wraiths if the terran knows what hes doing.
Still pretty damn impressive though. Trying to deal damage while staying out of that lethal 3 yard range where the mutalisk would absolutely rape wraith in high number.
Can someone tell me when was the last time 2 port wraiths failed in TvZ? My memory is pretty shot, and I want to see a proper defense against it. My last memory was from Leta vs JD over a year ago, but those are different maps.
On January 24 2011 21:00 Holgerius wrote: Fantasy is microing so damn well in this game.
Uhh there was nothing spectacular about the micro. It only seems that way to the unknowledgable. You see, mutalisks 3 range against wraiths 5 basically makes it impossible for zerg to kill any wraiths if the terran knows what hes doing.
Still pretty damn impressive though. Trying to deal damage while staying out of that lethal 3 yard range where the mutalisk would absolutely rape wraith in high number.
if it was so easy, why don't terrans always go wraith vs muta? the reason is because the margin of error is so low and the necessary reaction vs scourge + muta is very difficult to pull off (scourge can force a change in movement pattern which can allow muta to attack while moving). there is a reason why even the most mechanically skilled terrans like flash don't go wraith vs zerg
On January 24 2011 21:14 bearbuddy wrote: Can someone tell me when was the last time 2 port wraiths failed in TvZ? My memory is pretty shot, and I want to see a proper defense against it. My last memory was from Leta vs JD over a year ago, but those are different maps.
On January 24 2011 21:14 bearbuddy wrote: Can someone tell me when was the last time 2 port wraiths failed in TvZ? My memory is pretty shot, and I want to see a proper defense against it. My last memory was from Leta vs JD over a year ago, but those are different maps.
You have to scout it first, all SK knew was that there was no expansion and that the rax wasn't producing consistently.
On January 24 2011 21:14 bearbuddy wrote: Can someone tell me when was the last time 2 port wraiths failed in TvZ? My memory is pretty shot, and I want to see a proper defense against it. My last memory was from Leta vs JD over a year ago, but those are different maps.
Action vs Leta on Dreamliner is the the most recent I remember.
On January 24 2011 21:14 bearbuddy wrote: Can someone tell me when was the last time 2 port wraiths failed in TvZ? My memory is pretty shot, and I want to see a proper defense against it. My last memory was from Leta vs JD over a year ago, but those are different maps.
On January 24 2011 21:00 Holgerius wrote: Fantasy is microing so damn well in this game.
Uhh there was nothing spectacular about the micro. It only seems that way to the unknowledgable. You see, mutalisks 3 range against wraiths 5 basically makes it impossible for zerg to kill any wraiths if the terran knows what hes doing.
Still pretty damn impressive though. Trying to deal damage while staying out of that lethal 3 yard range where the mutalisk would absolutely rape wraith in high number.
if it was so easy, why don't terrans always go wraith vs muta? the reason is because the margin of error is so low and the necessary reaction vs scourge + muta is very difficult to pull off (scourge can force a change in movement pattern which can allow muta to attack while moving). there is a reason why even the most mechanically skilled terrans like flash don't go wraith vs zerg
gg fantasy1
If you are as good as Flash you don't need to 2 port wraiths to win . Fantasy's standart MM game sucks thats why he does weird builds to throw off other players and it's what he is strong at in TvZ .
On January 24 2011 21:07 PineappleLumpsToss wrote: Some sexy sexy wraith micro from Fantasy at times in that game. Pretty to watch.
Nice game-sense from Fantasy in that set as well. Pressured SK into making a massive sim city and prevented him macroing, then dropped back and held what he had. Risk-free, percentage play. GG.
Definitely not risk-free - I could see this failing horribly in the hands of a T who makes a single mistake with his Wraiths. Excellently executed by Fantasy, but it's a nervewracking strategy.
My risk-free comment was referring to pulling back and consolidating what he had. The initial build was far from risk-free, no doubt.
Nice. Fantasy forces cancel on 4th with vultures and runs in some more into the natural. Two vults kill just about every single probe there. Looking good for the terrorist!
Free moves all his forces out to block the entrance to his ninja-expo in the bottom right. I think Fantasy now knows it's there. Fantasy slowly pushes his way forward with scans.
A small task force from Fantasy kills off 4. Nice stasis from Free helps him fend off the push at his nat, but it still does nothing about the fact he is economically behind.
Fantasy not mining gas at two of his expos. Going for mass vultures again?
Free's 3 kill against ACE is quit deceiving, since everyone else all killed ACE anyway. I want to say slump, but it's gotten thrown around too much lately.
On January 24 2011 21:37 disciple wrote: free reminds me of a having a bad day Rock
Yeah seriously the defining characteristic of Rock was his sloppiness and Free's recent play is definitely the least clean of all protoss players right now.
fantasy played fantastic but he shouldnt get too confident about the OSL finals cause the last time Stork played as bad as free did that game it was 2002
On January 24 2011 21:37 disciple wrote: free reminds me of a having a bad day Rock
Yeah seriously the defining characteristic of Rock was his sloppiness and Free's recent play is definitely the least clean of all protoss players right now.
I thought the defining characteristic of Rock was TWO BASE CARRIER ;o
On January 24 2011 21:37 disciple wrote: free reminds me of a having a bad day Rock
Yeah seriously the defining characteristic of Rock was his sloppiness and Free's recent play is definitely the least clean of all protoss players right now.
I thought the defining characteristic of Rock was TWO BASE CARRIER ;o
At least that would be entertaining, this is just sad.
On January 24 2011 21:45 hellbound wrote: At least that would be entertaining, this is just sad.
I actually quite enjoy watching Fantasy show ow his clinical TvP. It also gives me faith that he'll put on a good show against Stork in the upcoming OSL Finals!
On January 24 2011 21:42 disciple wrote: fantasy played fantastic but he shouldnt get too confident about the OSL finals cause the last time Stork played as bad as free did that game it was 2002
Agreed. That game showed Fantasy's TvP is pretty damn solid, but Stork is still the favourite.
On January 24 2011 21:45 hellbound wrote: At least that would be entertaining, this is just sad.
I actually quite enjoy watching Fantasy show ow his clinical TvP. It also gives me faith that he'll put on a good show against Stork in the upcoming OSL Finals!
He is threatening Stork because he knows Stork is watching him play right now.
On January 24 2011 21:37 disciple wrote: free reminds me of a having a bad day Rock
Yeah seriously the defining characteristic of Rock was his sloppiness and Free's recent play is definitely the least clean of all protoss players right now.
I thought the defining characteristic of Rock was TWO BASE CARRIER ;o
Kind of, two base carriers was his "get out of jail" card so everyone will remember him for that build.
But his whole lengthy career has been defined by sloppy play. Everyone will remember Rock for losing all of his speed zealots without killing a single mangoon, being forced to accept a draw because Chalrenge was able to drag the game out with arbiters and mind control, doing the most pathetic cheese against Oversky, showing no understanding of mine diffusion, etc etc.
Fantasy going up against ZerO! Two players picked by separate teams in the same draft draw for new players face down at match point for this series. Who will be the victor?
Spire going down for Zero. Fantasy goes blind 2-port as he still hasn't scouted Zero. Lings are holding the ramp so he won't see anything, but he can probably guess from the lack of ling aggression.
On January 24 2011 22:03 pylonsalad wrote: Wow, awesome. I didn't know 2hatch was such a hard counter to 2port.
Actually, it's not necessarily a hard counter. 3h muta dies to 2port horribly, but 2h muta can survive 2port due to the mutas being morphed earlier. Zero had enough mutas to wrestle air control from Fantasy, and Fantasy never got a chance to mass up his wraiths. Of course, the short air distance and especially Fantasy's grudge against Turrets also helped, but it was still Zero who played this beautifully from the start to the end.
On January 24 2011 22:06 MoonBear wrote: Bisu is 4 ELO points away from Jaedong, and just 1 ELO Point away from overtaking taking the vZ 2nd ELO position from Jaedong. Can he do it?
On January 24 2011 22:06 MoonBear wrote: Bisu is 4 ELO points away from Jaedong, and just 1 ELO Point away from overtaking taking the vZ 2nd ELO position from Jaedong. Can he do it?
On January 24 2011 22:03 pylonsalad wrote: Wow, awesome. I didn't know 2hatch was such a hard counter to 2port.
Actually, it's not necessarily a hard counter. 3h muta dies to 2port horribly, but 2h muta can survive 2port due to the mutas being morphed earlier. Zero had enough mutas to wrestle air control from Fantasy, and Fantasy never got a chance to mass up his wraiths. Of course, the short air distance and especially Fantasy's grudge against Turrets also helped, but it was still Zero who played this beautifully from the start to the end.
Also that it was a super fast spire build, 12hat11pool10gas can take a lot of damage before mutas are out.
On January 24 2011 22:06 MoonBear wrote: Bisu is 4 ELO points away from Jaedong, and just 1 ELO Point away from overtaking taking the vZ 2nd ELO position from Jaedong. Can he do it?
On January 24 2011 22:06 MoonBear wrote: Bisu is 4 ELO points away from Jaedong, and just 1 ELO Point away from overtaking taking the vZ 2nd ELO position from Jaedong. Can he do it?
On January 24 2011 22:06 MoonBear wrote: Bisu is 4 ELO points away from Jaedong, and just 1 ELO Point away from overtaking taking the vZ 2nd ELO position from Jaedong. Can he do it?
On January 24 2011 22:06 MoonBear wrote: Bisu is 4 ELO points away from Jaedong, and just 1 ELO Point away from overtaking taking the vZ 2nd ELO position from Jaedong. Can he do it?
On January 24 2011 22:06 MoonBear wrote: Bisu is 4 ELO points away from Jaedong, and just 1 ELO Point away from overtaking taking the vZ 2nd ELO position from Jaedong. Can he do it?
On January 24 2011 22:06 MoonBear wrote: Bisu is 4 ELO points away from Jaedong, and just 1 ELO Point away from overtaking taking the vZ 2nd ELO position from Jaedong. Can he do it?
That is a lot of Zealots and Zero does not seem to have anything to hold! A huge pack of Overloads gets discovered by the Corsairs. Will Zero have the supply cap to rebuild?
I thinks it's gg for Zero, very sexy play by Bisu, total ownage, Zero holded nicely, until hordes of zealots just rolled him over, one or two lurkers would have melted them, but, hey!, its Bisu actually
On January 24 2011 22:29 setzer wrote: Bisu once again revolutionizing PvZ.
Zealot timings against Hydra busts, BW in a revolutionary period right now, not even some terrans in the MSL. It was PvT(Flash) and TvZ(Fantasy) revolution, now its time for PvZ(Taekshin once again).
Absolutely amazing game imo. ZerO actually managed to mass up hydras but apparently zealots with +2 attack slaughter them. Who needs high templar? just get 2 more forges and rush for upgrades and end the game at midgame. Corsair Zealot imba. Or rather, Bisu imba.
On January 24 2011 22:27 raga4ka wrote: Making zealots is apparently a very useful talent toi have .
holding against them is basic skill yet...
to be discovered. Zero did everything people here have recommended - earlier hydras, later 4th, he managed to snipe a lot of HT, and expanded later, while making a minimum of static defences, and still lost, not because he microed worse but because there were too many. Bisu just took a third and GG.
On January 24 2011 22:27 raga4ka wrote: Making zealots is apparently a very useful talent toi have .
holding against them is basic skill yet...
to be discovered. Zero did everything people here have recommended - earlier hydras, later 4th, he managed to snipe a lot of HT, and expanded later, while making a minimum of static defences, and still lost, not because he microed worse but because there were too many. Bisu just took a third and GG.
On January 24 2011 22:27 raga4ka wrote: Making zealots is apparently a very useful talent toi have .
holding against them is basic skill yet...
to be discovered. Zero did everything people here have recommended - earlier hydras, later 4th, he managed to snipe a lot of HT, and expanded later, while making a minimum of static defences, and still lost, not because he microed worse but because there were too many. Bisu just took a third and GG.
yeah, totally, Zero was good, lurkers would have been a key, but then there would be less hydras, dunno what could Zero have done here, I think he should have killed the fu--ing scout probe to leave Bisu guessing what sick strat he was up to. He got scouted and solved.
On January 24 2011 22:27 raga4ka wrote: Making zealots is apparently a very useful talent toi have .
holding against them is basic skill yet...
to be discovered. Zero did everything people here have recommended - earlier hydras, later 4th, he managed to snipe a lot of HT, and expanded later, while making a minimum of static defences, and still lost, not because he microed worse but because there were too many. Bisu just took a third and GG.
How about
fast
lurker???????????????
might get fuccked by sairs O_O gg PVZ IMBA OMAOAMOGMASDGLolol
I think Zero invested his gas for mass hydra and scourge so there were a few lurkers. Well Bisu's obs are right on time for lurker spawns, so what the heck? Bisu is ready for any units Zerg will throw at him. I wonder how he'll react for 4-6pool?
On January 24 2011 22:27 raga4ka wrote: Making zealots is apparently a very useful talent toi have .
holding against them is basic skill yet...
to be discovered. Zero did everything people here have recommended - earlier hydras, later 4th, he managed to snipe a lot of HT, and expanded later, while making a minimum of static defences, and still lost, not because he microed worse but because there were too many. Bisu just took a third and GG.
yeah, totally, Zero was good, lurkers would have been a key, but then there would be less hydras, dunno what could Zero have done here, I think he should have killed the fu--ing scout probe to leave Bisu guessing what sick strat he was up to. He got scouted and solved.
its almost impossible to kill a Bisuprobe before Lair timing lol
On January 24 2011 22:27 raga4ka wrote: Making zealots is apparently a very useful talent toi have .
holding against them is basic skill yet...
to be discovered. Zero did everything people here have recommended - earlier hydras, later 4th, he managed to snipe a lot of HT, and expanded later, while making a minimum of static defences, and still lost, not because he microed worse but because there were too many. Bisu just took a third and GG.
How about
fast
lurker???????????????
oh, come on? how about mass ultra guardian defiler bla bla bla, Bisu saw everything Zero was doing.
Was hoping for a longer game. When Bisu lost all his HTs so carelessly I thought Zero would roll him, instead it didnt matter. Still terrible control from Bisu's part, letting his zealots run forward instead of covering his HTs.
On January 24 2011 22:27 raga4ka wrote: Making zealots is apparently a very useful talent toi have .
holding against them is basic skill yet...
to be discovered. Zero did everything people here have recommended - earlier hydras, later 4th, he managed to snipe a lot of HT, and expanded later, while making a minimum of static defences, and still lost, not because he microed worse but because there were too many. Bisu just took a third and GG.
How about
fast
lurker???????????????
Fast lurkers means every single one of your overlords will get popped.
On January 24 2011 22:27 raga4ka wrote: Making zealots is apparently a very useful talent toi have .
holding against them is basic skill yet...
to be discovered. Zero did everything people here have recommended - earlier hydras, later 4th, he managed to snipe a lot of HT, and expanded later, while making a minimum of static defences, and still lost, not because he microed worse but because there were too many. Bisu just took a third and GG.
yeah, totally, Zero was good, lurkers would have been a key, but then there would be less hydras, dunno what could Zero have done here, I think he should have killed the fu--ing scout probe to leave Bisu guessing what sick strat he was up to. He got scouted and solved.
its almost impossible to kill a Bisuprobe before Lair timing lol
On January 24 2011 22:27 raga4ka wrote: Making zealots is apparently a very useful talent toi have .
holding against them is basic skill yet...
to be discovered. Zero did everything people here have recommended - earlier hydras, later 4th, he managed to snipe a lot of HT, and expanded later, while making a minimum of static defences, and still lost, not because he microed worse but because there were too many. Bisu just took a third and GG.
How about
fast
lurker???????????????
Problem is lurker is way more immobile than hydra. If Zero lurkers his 3rd or 4th, then Bisu just walks all his shit straight into his main + corsairs rape (or zlot drop). If he sets up mass static D at EVERY base, then Bisu just mass expos while taking complete map control.
On January 24 2011 22:27 raga4ka wrote: Making zealots is apparently a very useful talent toi have .
holding against them is basic skill yet...
to be discovered. Zero did everything people here have recommended - earlier hydras, later 4th, he managed to snipe a lot of HT, and expanded later, while making a minimum of static defences, and still lost, not because he microed worse but because there were too many. Bisu just took a third and GG.
How about
fast
lurker???????????????
might get fuccked by sairs O_O gg PVZ IMBA OMAOAMOGMASDGLolol
luckily lurker builds come with a free hidra den... sigh at the moment this zealot thing looks very strong on maps where you can't turtle 4 bases on two chokes. Them zergies better start racking their brains, I mean they are pros what the shit.
On January 24 2011 22:27 raga4ka wrote: Making zealots is apparently a very useful talent toi have .
holding against them is basic skill yet...
to be discovered. Zero did everything people here have recommended - earlier hydras, later 4th, he managed to snipe a lot of HT, and expanded later, while making a minimum of static defences, and still lost, not because he microed worse but because there were too many. Bisu just took a third and GG.
How about
fast
lurker???????????????
might get fuccked by sairs O_O gg PVZ IMBA OMAOAMOGMASDGLolol
luckily lurker builds come with a free hidra den... sigh at the moment this zealot thing looks very strong on maps where you can't turtle 4 bases on two chokes. Them zergies better start racking their brains, I mean they are pros what the shit.
Mmhmm, zergs are having a tough time not being able to traditionally simcity their third base.
On January 24 2011 22:27 raga4ka wrote: Making zealots is apparently a very useful talent toi have .
holding against them is basic skill yet...
to be discovered. Zero did everything people here have recommended - earlier hydras, later 4th, he managed to snipe a lot of HT, and expanded later, while making a minimum of static defences, and still lost, not because he microed worse but because there were too many. Bisu just took a third and GG.
How about
fast
lurker???????????????
Fast lurkers are pretty bad at keeping your supply from being destroyed.
On January 24 2011 22:29 Emon_ wrote: Why the fuck didn't Zero research lurkers?
He did, he just decided to make lots of mutas instead and let Bisu roflstomp all of his bases with pure zealot.
He was down to 2base zerg vs 4 base toss at that juncture, what's the point of making lurkers?
To defend against the massive amounts of zealots? He had at least 1 lurker defending top left at some point, it may have been only hatcheries at that point but still, hatcheries > no hatcheries. Clearly Zero had enough cash for more lurkers but instead made mutas.
I need to rewatch that game though, still don't understand the number of zealots Bisu made.
On January 24 2011 22:27 raga4ka wrote: Making zealots is apparently a very useful talent toi have .
holding against them is basic skill yet...
to be discovered. Zero did everything people here have recommended - earlier hydras, later 4th, he managed to snipe a lot of HT, and expanded later, while making a minimum of static defences, and still lost, not because he microed worse but because there were too many. Bisu just took a third and GG.
How about
fast
lurker???????????????
very naive and thoughtless idea
1) fast lurker = low econ, and forces you to play early game aggressive or else you are behind and early game aggressive is not Zero's game, he's a macro mid to late game guy.
2)low amounts of hydras to deal with Bisu's corsair play, try finding the supply to make lurkers
3)making spores at each base with fast lurkers means your econ will suck more and lurker timing will be delayed
4)Bisu is pro, he will sense something when he notices low amounts of hydras or drones with 1st corsair which will get there a lot faster than lurkers (unless you do a cheesy lurker rush, in which case good luck killing bisu probe), then build 2 or 3 more cannons and he's good
5)drops you say? he is massing corsairs, you have little hydras
On January 24 2011 22:27 raga4ka wrote: Making zealots is apparently a very useful talent toi have .
holding against them is basic skill yet...
to be discovered. Zero did everything people here have recommended - earlier hydras, later 4th, he managed to snipe a lot of HT, and expanded later, while making a minimum of static defences, and still lost, not because he microed worse but because there were too many. Bisu just took a third and GG.
yeah, totally, Zero was good, lurkers would have been a key, but then there would be less hydras, dunno what could Zero have done here, I think he should have killed the fu--ing scout probe to leave Bisu guessing what sick strat he was up to. He got scouted and solved.
its almost impossible to kill a Bisuprobe before Lair timing lol
Hive timing, actually. You need Ultras, Cracklings AND swarms and plague to kil Bisu's scouting probe.
On January 24 2011 22:32 pylonsalad wrote: I think its time for zergs to realize one sunken is not enough.
Yes, it's much better for Zergs to build a ton of sunkens, and let the Protoss with Mapcontrol exceed his number of bases. Good advice.
Talk about hyperbolizing an argument.
Lets compare what is more optimal: 2 sunkens or even god forbid 3 sunkens to hold off the first zealot push without losing like 6-10 drones or 1 sunken and losing mining time as well as those drones.
To be fair, zero's second hatch got delayed to the point that his 2nd and 3rd went down at the same time, while bisu got a good economy going in and zero's fast lings did absolutely nothing.
On January 24 2011 22:33 bearbuddy wrote: Oh, this is an ace matc--
Yeah, *sigh*.
poor stars =[ that's 8th ace match lost?
At this point, I'm not even keeping count anymore, heh. Really wish we would have a solid terran to diversify our choices, but alas, it's the curse of woongjin terrans.
On January 24 2011 22:29 Emon_ wrote: Why the fuck didn't Zero research lurkers?
He did, he just decided to make lots of mutas instead and let Bisu roflstomp all of his bases with pure zealot.
He was down to 2base zerg vs 4 base toss at that juncture, what's the point of making lurkers?
To defend against the massive amounts of zealots? He had at least 1 lurker defending top left at some point, it may have been only hatcheries at that point but still, hatcheries > no hatcheries. Clearly Zero had enough cash for more lurkers but instead made mutas.
I need to rewatch that game though, still don't understand the number of zealots Bisu made.
There is no point in defending when you are behind, you either do damage and catch up or it's gg, it's really obvious and bisu knew it, that why he started making those goons. Also the lurkers at the top died, because obs was out.
On January 24 2011 22:32 pylonsalad wrote: I think its time for zergs to realize one sunken is not enough.
Yes, it's much better for Zergs to build a ton of sunkens, and let the Protoss with Mapcontrol exceed his number of bases. Good advice.
Talk about hyperbolizing an argument.
Lets compare what is more optimal: 2 sunkens or even god forbid 3 sunkens to hold off the first zealot push without losing like 6-10 drones or 1 sunken and losing mining time as well as those drones.
Let's take this discussion to the PvZ thread. This is for the LR of SKT vs. Stars.
On January 24 2011 22:35 Crissaegrim wrote: Was hoping for a longer game. When Bisu lost all his HTs so carelessly I thought Zero would roll him, instead it didnt matter. Still terrible control from Bisu's part, letting his zealots run forward instead of covering his HTs.
Well thats what the strategy is . Throwing cheap zealots at Zero so while he is dealing with it take a third and just overrun him with zealots . Zergs should just 3 hatch hydra . There is no reason not to when you know the protoss is going to build a stargate which bassicaly does nothing against it .
On January 24 2011 22:32 pylonsalad wrote: I think its time for zergs to realize one sunken is not enough.
Yes, it's much better for Zergs to build a ton of sunkens, and let the Protoss with Mapcontrol exceed his number of bases. Good advice.
Talk about hyperbolizing an argument.
Lets compare what is more optimal: 2 sunkens or even god forbid 3 sunkens to hold off the first zealot push without losing like 6-10 drones or 1 sunken and losing mining time as well as those drones.
With sunkens, it's not just "2-3 sunkens", you need them at EACH base. So if you made 3 sunkens, on 3 bases you need 9 sunkens. That's like what.... 30+ drones down in cost not even including mining time, which is why it's a terrible idea.
On January 24 2011 22:27 raga4ka wrote: Making zealots is apparently a very useful talent toi have .
holding against them is basic skill yet...
to be discovered. Zero did everything people here have recommended - earlier hydras, later 4th, he managed to snipe a lot of HT, and expanded later, while making a minimum of static defences, and still lost, not because he microed worse but because there were too many. Bisu just took a third and GG.
How about
fast
lurker???????????????
might get fuccked by sairs O_O gg PVZ IMBA OMAOAMOGMASDGLolol
luckily lurker builds come with a free hidra den... sigh at the moment this zealot thing looks very strong on maps where you can't turtle 4 bases on two chokes. Them zergies better start racking their brains, I mean they are pros what the shit.
the map is freaky for ZvP indeed, and I think zergs should reconsider their strats for this exactly map, so many losses were here
On January 24 2011 22:27 raga4ka wrote: Making zealots is apparently a very useful talent toi have .
holding against them is basic skill yet...
to be discovered. Zero did everything people here have recommended - earlier hydras, later 4th, he managed to snipe a lot of HT, and expanded later, while making a minimum of static defences, and still lost, not because he microed worse but because there were too many. Bisu just took a third and GG.
How about
fast
lurker???????????????
very naive and thoughtless idea
1) fast lurker = low econ, and forces you to play early game aggressive or else you are behind and early game aggressive is not Zero's game, he's a macro mid to late game guy.
2)low amounts of hydras to deal with Bisu's corsair play, try finding the supply to make lurkers
3)making spores at each base with fast lurkers means your econ will suck more and lurker timing will be delayed
4)Bisu is pro, he will sense something when he notices low amounts of hydras or drones with 1st corsair which will get there a lot faster than lurkers (unless you do a cheesy lurker rush, in which case good luck killing bisu probe), then build 2 or 3 more cannons and he's good
5)drops you say? he is massing corsairs, you have little hydras
Where did I say low econ lurkers? I meant getting the tech before hidra upgrades, same macro build, it would make defending overlords with slow hidras a chore but it would stop the zealots, and prevent toss taking expos before observer. Somehow it seems that you are suggesting that rolling over and dying is a more thoughtful idea.
On January 24 2011 22:32 pylonsalad wrote: I think its time for zergs to realize one sunken is not enough.
Yes, it's much better for Zergs to build a ton of sunkens, and let the Protoss with Mapcontrol exceed his number of bases. Good advice.
Talk about hyperbolizing an argument.
Lets compare what is more optimal: 2 sunkens or even god forbid 3 sunkens to hold off the first zealot push without losing like 6-10 drones or 1 sunken and losing mining time as well as those drones.
With sunkens, it's not just "2-3 sunkens", you need them at EACH base. So if you made 3 sunkens, on 3 bases you need 9 sunkens. That's like what.... 30+ drones down in cost, which is why it's a terrible idea.
you forget that usually Zerg only needs to defend on 2 fronts..
On January 24 2011 22:32 pylonsalad wrote: I think its time for zergs to realize one sunken is not enough.
Yes, it's much better for Zergs to build a ton of sunkens, and let the Protoss with Mapcontrol exceed his number of bases. Good advice.
Talk about hyperbolizing an argument.
Lets compare what is more optimal: 2 sunkens or even god forbid 3 sunkens to hold off the first zealot push without losing like 6-10 drones or 1 sunken and losing mining time as well as those drones.
With sunkens, it's not just "2-3 sunkens", you need them at EACH base. So if you made 3 sunkens, on 3 bases you need 9 sunkens. That's like what.... 30+ drones down in cost, which is why it's a terrible idea.
you forget that usually Zerg only needs to defend on 2 fronts..
On January 24 2011 22:32 pylonsalad wrote: I think its time for zergs to realize one sunken is not enough.
Yes, it's much better for Zergs to build a ton of sunkens, and let the Protoss with Mapcontrol exceed his number of bases. Good advice.
Talk about hyperbolizing an argument.
Lets compare what is more optimal: 2 sunkens or even god forbid 3 sunkens to hold off the first zealot push without losing like 6-10 drones or 1 sunken and losing mining time as well as those drones.
With sunkens, it's not just "2-3 sunkens", you need them at EACH base. So if you made 3 sunkens, on 3 bases you need 9 sunkens. That's like what.... 30+ drones down in cost, which is why it's a terrible idea.
you forget that usually Zerg only needs to defend on 2 fronts..
Yes, but have you seen the times when Bisu devastates a Z main with a slightly delayed Zealot drop? I bet as soon as he sees 2+ sunkens on each base, he drops a robo right away and gets those shuttles.
On January 24 2011 22:35 Crissaegrim wrote: Was hoping for a longer game. When Bisu lost all his HTs so carelessly I thought Zero would roll him, instead it didnt matter. Still terrible control from Bisu's part, letting his zealots run forward instead of covering his HTs.
but while Zero is microing, killing all HTs, Bisu is macroing zealots, not microing his zeal/ht army. and it worked.
On January 24 2011 22:32 pylonsalad wrote: I think its time for zergs to realize one sunken is not enough.
Yes, it's much better for Zergs to build a ton of sunkens, and let the Protoss with Mapcontrol exceed his number of bases. Good advice.
Talk about hyperbolizing an argument.
Lets compare what is more optimal: 2 sunkens or even god forbid 3 sunkens to hold off the first zealot push without losing like 6-10 drones or 1 sunken and losing mining time as well as those drones.
With sunkens, it's not just "2-3 sunkens", you need them at EACH base. So if you made 3 sunkens, on 3 bases you need 9 sunkens. That's like what.... 30+ drones down in cost, which is why it's a terrible idea.
you forget that usually Zerg only needs to defend on 2 fronts..
On January 24 2011 22:29 Emon_ wrote: Why the fuck didn't Zero research lurkers?
He did, he just decided to make lots of mutas instead and let Bisu roflstomp all of his bases with pure zealot.
He was down to 2base zerg vs 4 base toss at that juncture, what's the point of making lurkers?
To defend against the massive amounts of zealots? He had at least 1 lurker defending top left at some point, it may have been only hatcheries at that point but still, hatcheries > no hatcheries. Clearly Zero had enough cash for more lurkers but instead made mutas.
I need to rewatch that game though, still don't understand the number of zealots Bisu made.
There is no point in defending when you are behind, you either do damage and catch up or it's gg, it's really obvious and bisu knew it, that why he started making those goons. Also the lurkers at the top died, because obs was out.
You do know that many lurkers > many zealots? Observer or no observer.
Bisu played that excellently, this was entirely on Zero to win after he deflected all of those zealot attacks and sniped HT. He failed, Bisu won.
On January 24 2011 22:27 raga4ka wrote: Making zealots is apparently a very useful talent toi have .
holding against them is basic skill yet...
to be discovered. Zero did everything people here have recommended - earlier hydras, later 4th, he managed to snipe a lot of HT, and expanded later, while making a minimum of static defences, and still lost, not because he microed worse but because there were too many. Bisu just took a third and GG.
How about
fast
lurker???????????????
very naive and thoughtless idea
1) fast lurker = low econ, and forces you to play early game aggressive or else you are behind and early game aggressive is not Zero's game, he's a macro mid to late game guy.
2)low amounts of hydras to deal with Bisu's corsair play, try finding the supply to make lurkers
3)making spores at each base with fast lurkers means your econ will suck more and lurker timing will be delayed
4)Bisu is pro, he will sense something when he notices low amounts of hydras or drones with 1st corsair which will get there a lot faster than lurkers (unless you do a cheesy lurker rush, in which case good luck killing bisu probe), then build 2 or 3 more cannons and he's good
5)drops you say? he is massing corsairs, you have little hydras
I guess first you should kill the Bisu probe, then when he's blind you do whatever you want. For a guy playing 100 games every single day, its not that difficult to figure out the right strat, when he scouts chit out of your bo.
Protss has basically learned to hard counter the spire build. Looks like hydra-bust every game to delay zealot production on account of more cannons is the only option left. Worked good vs stork at least
On January 24 2011 22:29 Emon_ wrote: Why the fuck didn't Zero research lurkers?
He did, he just decided to make lots of mutas instead and let Bisu roflstomp all of his bases with pure zealot.
He was down to 2base zerg vs 4 base toss at that juncture, what's the point of making lurkers?
To defend against the massive amounts of zealots? He had at least 1 lurker defending top left at some point, it may have been only hatcheries at that point but still, hatcheries > no hatcheries. Clearly Zero had enough cash for more lurkers but instead made mutas.
I need to rewatch that game though, still don't understand the number of zealots Bisu made.
There is no point in defending when you are behind, you either do damage and catch up or it's gg, it's really obvious and bisu knew it, that why he started making those goons. Also the lurkers at the top died, because obs was out.
You do know that many lurkers > many zealots? Observer or no observer.
Too bad lurkers can't fly to bisu's base and hurt his economy.
On January 24 2011 22:32 pylonsalad wrote: I think its time for zergs to realize one sunken is not enough.
Yes, it's much better for Zergs to build a ton of sunkens, and let the Protoss with Mapcontrol exceed his number of bases. Good advice.
Talk about hyperbolizing an argument.
Lets compare what is more optimal: 2 sunkens or even god forbid 3 sunkens to hold off the first zealot push without losing like 6-10 drones or 1 sunken and losing mining time as well as those drones.
With sunkens, it's not just "2-3 sunkens", you need them at EACH base. So if you made 3 sunkens, on 3 bases you need 9 sunkens. That's like what.... 30+ drones down in cost, which is why it's a terrible idea.
you forget that usually Zerg only needs to defend on 2 fronts..
Yes, but have you seen the times when Bisu devastates a Z main with a slightly delayed Zealot drop? I bet as soon as he sees 2+ sunkens on each base, he drops a robo right away and gets those shuttles.
so far this season I've only seen him do an elevator once vs SK, and that's because SK was turtling HARD (like 4+ sunks I think) and Bisu got the shuttle after his third I believe. There's just no way Bisu will get a shuttle so fast that you need to invest into 2-3 sunks at your main right after he sees your simcity def.
This discussion is very similar to what happened after Zero vs Flash on Polaris Rhapsody. Zero similarly played nearly perfectly and still convincingly lost to Flash's mech push. In situations like that, theres just nothing left to do
On January 24 2011 22:32 pylonsalad wrote: I think its time for zergs to realize one sunken is not enough.
Yes, it's much better for Zergs to build a ton of sunkens, and let the Protoss with Mapcontrol exceed his number of bases. Good advice.
Talk about hyperbolizing an argument.
Lets compare what is more optimal: 2 sunkens or even god forbid 3 sunkens to hold off the first zealot push without losing like 6-10 drones or 1 sunken and losing mining time as well as those drones.
With sunkens, it's not just "2-3 sunkens", you need them at EACH base. So if you made 3 sunkens, on 3 bases you need 9 sunkens. That's like what.... 30+ drones down in cost, which is why it's a terrible idea.
you forget that usually Zerg only needs to defend on 2 fronts..
Yes, but have you seen the times when Bisu devastates a Z main with a slightly delayed Zealot drop? I bet as soon as he sees 2+ sunkens on each base, he drops a robo right away and gets those shuttles.
so far this season I've only seen him do an elevator once vs SK, and that's because SK was turtling HARD and Bisu got the shuttle after his third I believe. There's just no way Bisu will get a shuttle so fast that you need to invest into 2-3 sunks at your main right after he sees your simcity def.
Ah, the old keep 2 archons and some zealots in the zerg base forever build, my favorite. But as our friendly neighborhood PvZ expert said, corsairs are the real bitch in this build, the zealots just help.
It is obvious the standard zerg builds with the standard simcities is not working. It looks to me like zergs just simply have to admit that they cant drone whore and cant skimp on early defence anymore. Zero's control was not awful as some people are suggesting. He played quite good in my humble opinion. That burrow HT sniping was pimp. The timing window of the first attack has shifted forward. So its time for zergs to accomodate for that by pumping units earlier and living with a lesser economy than before or making more static defence and living with a lesser economy than before.
On January 24 2011 22:50 xarthaz wrote: Protss has basically learned to hard counter the spire build. Looks like hydra-bust every game to delay zealot production on account of more cannons is the only option left. Worked good vs stork at least
Zero faked all in, took a fourth behind his third and let the macro advantage carry him to victory, that strat cannot be done on benzene because it's a two player map.
On January 24 2011 22:27 raga4ka wrote: Making zealots is apparently a very useful talent toi have .
holding against them is basic skill yet...
to be discovered. Zero did everything people here have recommended - earlier hydras, later 4th, he managed to snipe a lot of HT, and expanded later, while making a minimum of static defences, and still lost, not because he microed worse but because there were too many. Bisu just took a third and GG.
How about
fast
lurker???????????????
very naive and thoughtless idea
1) fast lurker = low econ, and forces you to play early game aggressive or else you are behind and early game aggressive is not Zero's game, he's a macro mid to late game guy.
2)low amounts of hydras to deal with Bisu's corsair play, try finding the supply to make lurkers
3)making spores at each base with fast lurkers means your econ will suck more and lurker timing will be delayed
4)Bisu is pro, he will sense something when he notices low amounts of hydras or drones with 1st corsair which will get there a lot faster than lurkers (unless you do a cheesy lurker rush, in which case good luck killing bisu probe), then build 2 or 3 more cannons and he's good
5)drops you say? he is massing corsairs, you have little hydras
Where did I say low econ lurkers? I meant getting the tech before hidra upgrades, same macro build, it would make defending overlords with slow hidras a chore but it would stop the zealots, and prevent toss taking expos before observer. Somehow it seems that you are suggesting that rolling over and dying is a more thoughtful idea.
Read number 2) and 3), you WILL NOT have the hydras to defend mass corsairs as you force yourself into lurker ling with limited gas
they will just shrug off the hits if you do go through with the morphing of the lurkers, a spore can be shrugged off as well along with 2-3 hydras a base
try microing lurker ling vs storm or reavers
Zero played it right save 2 parts:
Bisu won for 2 reasons even after 2 early slightly sloppy attacks. He trapped a huge amount of Zeros hydras on the 3rd attack on the ramp giving Zero no room to micro. And we should all know what happens when unmovable hydras fight zealots.
The 2nd reason is that Zero scouted the 1st zealot dt attack coming a mile away with scourge, he should have easily realized then he should either a) gotten his other hydras there immediately and not when the zealots were in his mineral line, or b) he`s gonna need some more sunken simcity.
On January 24 2011 22:50 xarthaz wrote: Protss has basically learned to hard counter the spire build. Looks like hydra-bust every game to delay zealot production on account of more cannons is the only option left. Worked good vs stork at least
Zero faked all in, took a fourth behind his third and let the macro advantage carry him to victory, that strat cannot be done on benzene because it's a two player map.
not to mention a long rush distance, and narrow choke into the nat favors the Protoss in the Hydra bust situation. Also the Bisuprobe scouting everything lol
On January 24 2011 22:59 Gescom wrote: I don't think there should be a ZvP / PvZ discussion when it's really just Bisu owning up that matchup right now.
Does anyone have the stats without any of his games factored in? It's probably a lot closer to 50%.
edit -- was posted above, PvZ; 10-13. Single handedly breaking a matchup right now! ;p
On January 24 2011 22:50 xarthaz wrote: Protss has basically learned to hard counter the spire build. Looks like hydra-bust every game to delay zealot production on account of more cannons is the only option left. Worked good vs stork at least
Zero faked all in, took a fourth behind his third and let the macro advantage carry him to victory, that strat cannot be done on benzene because it's a two player map.
not to mention a long rush distance, and narrow choke into the nat favors the Protoss in the Hydra bust situation. Also the Bisuprobe scouting everything lol
Yeah all that too, still ling speed will kill any probe, even bisuprobe. Anyway let the pros figure it out, getting lurker tech fast was my two cents, maybe they will come out with a pure air build or queens or whatever. Good games today.
On January 24 2011 23:06 Finale wrote: Also worth mentioning: Bisu (6-0), Stork (5-0), Violet (4-0), Stats (3-0), and Jaehoon (2-0) account for 20/26 PvZ wins.
In the 6 dragons era, the non-dragons were garbage. This isn't much different. + Show Spoiler +
On January 24 2011 22:59 Gescom wrote: I don't think there should be a ZvP / PvZ discussion when it's really just Bisu owning up that matchup right now.
Does anyone have the stats without any of his games factored in? It's probably a lot closer to 50%.
edit -- was posted above, PvZ; 10-13. Single handedly breaking a matchup right now! ;p
On January 24 2011 22:49 J1.au wrote: As of right now: ZvP: 14-26 (35%). Amazing.
Without Bisu : ZvP : 13-10. Bisu is amazing.
14-26 is the current stat for Winners League alone, but you deducted Bisu's PvZ record for both WL and SPL.
Minus Bisu's 6-0 in Winners League, the current MU is 14-20.
eh sorry I thought he was talking about PL including the first round. Indeed I deducted Bisu's record for both. You are right.
Btw, why do you called the first two rounds SPL. Winners league is a part of SPL too. It's just a special round with a different format, but still a part of SPL. Anyway, I understood what you meant, just asking
On January 24 2011 22:49 J1.au wrote: As of right now: ZvP: 14-26 (35%). Amazing.
Without Bisu : ZvP : 13-10. Bisu is amazing.
14-26 is the current stat for Winners League alone, but you deducted Bisu's PvZ record for both WL and SPL.
Minus Bisu's 6-0 in Winners League, the current MU is 14-20.
eh sorry I thought he was talking about PL including the first round. Indeed I deducted Bisu's record for both. You are right.
Btw, why do you called the first two rounds SPL. Winners league is a part of SPL too. It's just a special round with a different format, but still a part of SPL. Anyway, I understood what you meant, just asking
I just split them since the stats are tracked individually in TLPD and we were talking about stats.
And for those keeping track who haven't already noticed:
On January 24 2011 23:18 Nouar wrote: What's fun about ELO is that bisu is 83pts behind JD in vT, 120pts behind in vP, SIX pts above in vZ, yet ahead of JD overall........... Wut?
On January 24 2011 23:18 Nouar wrote: What's fun about ELO is that bisu is 83pts behind JD in vT, 120pts behind in vP, SIX pts above in vZ, yet ahead of JD overall........... Wut?
On January 24 2011 23:18 Nouar wrote: What's fun about ELO is that bisu is 83pts behind JD in vT, 120pts behind in vP, SIX pts above in vZ, yet ahead of JD overall........... Wut?
Bisu has more overall games played and wins this season (37-9 in all leagues) than Jaedong (28-10). It also depends on the skill of the respective players that they both defeated.
His vT and vP are still that much lower than Jaedong's because he hasn't matched Jaedong in those match-ups over a prolonged period of time (i.e. since exiting his slump).
Everytime I watch Bisu PvZ I don't understand how this shit is working. How does non storm mass zealot always do so much damage lol. I keep thinking Zergs will just learn to be more careful and defend, but they keep dying to this. WHY??
On January 24 2011 23:36 ketomai wrote: Everytime I watch Bisu PvZ I don't understand how this shit is working. How does non storm mass zealot always do so much damage lol. I keep thinking Zergs will just learn to be more careful and defend, but they keep dying to this. WHY??
The difference between Bisu and other Toss is not the zealots but the crosairs. If you watch all his game again, you will see that his crosairs is much more active in scouting, overlord hunting, and scourge avoidance. This forces the his zerg opponent to either make more overlord than needed to compensate or even worse suffer supply block. Take that with the fact that his zealot is much more active in the early stage forces his zerg opponent to over compensate by making more lings and defense structure. Because of that, it always seems like Bisu opponent always have less units to defend or teching much slower than when they are fighting other toss.
On January 24 2011 23:18 Nouar wrote: What's fun about ELO is that bisu is 83pts behind JD in vT, 120pts behind in vP, SIX pts above in vZ, yet ahead of JD overall........... Wut?
Keep in mind that v. race ELO may have virtually nothing to do with overall ELO if the player hasn't played much against that race recently.
Bisu has been playing tons of zergs lately, so his ELO is largely a reflection of his PvZ
Park keeps sending s2, and he keeps losing. It's really starting to frustrate me since there are a couple others I would really like to see play (afrotoss!? best or kwanro anyone?). Maybe he does really good in practice and just chokes in televised matches - actually that MUST be the case since I don't consider Park to be a stupid coach and wouldn't do such a thing as send a player he expects to lose... /end rant Glad he's giving Sun a lot of opportunities though, as he is showing a lot of promise.
And why can't Really win any games on Woonjin? I felt that they would be a contender for first place this season (and they started out that way) with the Zero/Free/Soulkey/Really line-up, but will be damn hard without the Terran pulling his weight.
Finally, I wonder how that BvZ today will effect the Stork vs Zero series? *awaits with high anticipation*
For those talking ZvP strategy theres a thread for it in BW discussion. But incase you didn't notice there is an alternate build, we saw it just earlier in the game in By.Sun vs Soulkey... different map but notice a similarity, the bottom right used as a 3rd is also as wide open as Benzene and it was defended. Of course, it wasn't Bisu playing. But By.Sun didn't get his first 5 templars sniped either. For the argument of lurker vs fast hydra; what about both? Remember a Spire costs 200/200... why not double den at the normal Spire timing and use extra on hydras, gas from scourge on lurker. Probably lurker on first den before speed to nullify speedlot push on 3rd or nat, then hydra speed on second den to fight sairs. It's a bitch and annoying to fight them like that, but it's already a bitch and annoying to fight them with scourge right now.
Infact if you think about it, Jaedong probably was thinking along the right track with his expo location... lurker up plus 200 gas means you got instant egg wall to block your third off. Maybe fighting along the bottom side of the map to split it would be an interesting way to approach the map.
On January 24 2011 23:18 Nouar wrote: What's fun about ELO is that bisu is 83pts behind JD in vT, 120pts behind in vP, SIX pts above in vZ, yet ahead of JD overall........... Wut?
Keep in mind that v. race ELO may have virtually nothing to do with overall ELO if the player hasn't played much against that race recently.
Bisu has been playing tons of zergs lately, so his ELO is largely a reflection of his PvZ
That plus if you slump then your ELo goes down really far because you lose to crap players
JD has never really slumped so his ELO doesn't go down much... when bisu slumped last season his ELO overall went down very far in all matchups cause he lost to people with crappy ELOs
Game 4 has to be one of the worst games I have ever seen, how can soulkey be that fucking incompetent vs 2port (see his game vs frozen on the same map vs the same opening)?
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/rsc4p.png)
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By.Sun « Circuit Breaker » 
Really
Neo.G_Soulkey![[image loading]](/staff/flamewheel/Team_Icons/SKTelecomT1.png){kind=icon}
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I'm still going to root for him though. I don't think skt will use a plethora of zergs. Fantasy will probably be scheduled to play (if bisu fails his all kill) and somehow I would not be surprised to see an early appearance by ssak. One, maybe two zerg.
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