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On January 24 2011 22:41 lone_hydra wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 22:33 hellbound wrote:On January 24 2011 22:31 mustaju wrote:On January 24 2011 22:28 chisuri wrote:On January 24 2011 22:27 raga4ka wrote:
Making zealots is apparently a very useful talent toi have . holding against them is basic skill yet... to be discovered. Zero did everything people here have recommended - earlier hydras, later 4th, he managed to snipe a lot of HT, and expanded later, while making a minimum of static defences, and still lost, not because he microed worse but because there were too many. Bisu just took a third and GG. How about fast lurker???????????????  very naive and thoughtless idea 1) fast lurker = low econ, and forces you to play early game aggressive or else you are behind and early game aggressive is not Zero's game, he's a macro mid to late game guy. 2)low amounts of hydras to deal with Bisu's corsair play, try finding the supply to make lurkers 3)making spores at each base with fast lurkers means your econ will suck more and lurker timing will be delayed 4)Bisu is pro, he will sense something when he notices low amounts of hydras or drones with 1st corsair which will get there a lot faster than lurkers (unless you do a cheesy lurker rush, in which case good luck killing bisu probe), then build 2 or 3 more cannons and he's good 5)drops you say? he is massing corsairs, you have little hydras
Where did I say low econ lurkers? I meant getting the tech before hidra upgrades, same macro build, it would make defending overlords with slow hidras a chore but it would stop the zealots, and prevent toss taking expos before observer. Somehow it seems that you are suggesting that rolling over and dying is a more thoughtful idea.
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10387 Posts
On January 24 2011 22:46 teamsolid wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 22:42 pylonsalad wrote:On January 24 2011 22:34 mustaju wrote:On January 24 2011 22:32 pylonsalad wrote:
I think its time for zergs to realize one sunken is not enough. Yes, it's much better for Zergs to build a ton of sunkens, and let the Protoss with Mapcontrol exceed his number of bases. Good advice. Talk about hyperbolizing an argument. Lets compare what is more optimal: 2 sunkens or even god forbid 3 sunkens to hold off the first zealot push without losing like 6-10 drones or 1 sunken and losing mining time as well as those drones. With sunkens, it's not just "2-3 sunkens", you need them at EACH base. So if you made 3 sunkens, on 3 bases you need 9 sunkens. That's like what.... 30+ drones down in cost, which is why it's a terrible idea.
you forget that usually Zerg only needs to defend on 2 fronts..
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United States23455 Posts
Wow. Bisu is 33-2 this season.
He's on his way to shattering the Proleague record books.
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Estonia4504 Posts
On January 24 2011 22:48 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 22:46 teamsolid wrote:On January 24 2011 22:42 pylonsalad wrote:On January 24 2011 22:34 mustaju wrote:On January 24 2011 22:32 pylonsalad wrote:
I think its time for zergs to realize one sunken is not enough. Yes, it's much better for Zergs to build a ton of sunkens, and let the Protoss with Mapcontrol exceed his number of bases. Good advice. Talk about hyperbolizing an argument. Lets compare what is more optimal: 2 sunkens or even god forbid 3 sunkens to hold off the first zealot push without losing like 6-10 drones or 1 sunken and losing mining time as well as those drones. With sunkens, it's not just "2-3 sunkens", you need them at EACH base. So if you made 3 sunkens, on 3 bases you need 9 sunkens. That's like what.... 30+ drones down in cost, which is why it's a terrible idea. you forget that usually Zerg only needs to defend on 2 fronts..
Good luck once he starts shuttling forces in.
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On January 24 2011 22:48 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 22:46 teamsolid wrote:On January 24 2011 22:42 pylonsalad wrote:On January 24 2011 22:34 mustaju wrote:On January 24 2011 22:32 pylonsalad wrote:
I think its time for zergs to realize one sunken is not enough. Yes, it's much better for Zergs to build a ton of sunkens, and let the Protoss with Mapcontrol exceed his number of bases. Good advice. Talk about hyperbolizing an argument. Lets compare what is more optimal: 2 sunkens or even god forbid 3 sunkens to hold off the first zealot push without losing like 6-10 drones or 1 sunken and losing mining time as well as those drones. With sunkens, it's not just "2-3 sunkens", you need them at EACH base. So if you made 3 sunkens, on 3 bases you need 9 sunkens. That's like what.... 30+ drones down in cost, which is why it's a terrible idea. you forget that usually Zerg only needs to defend on 2 fronts..
Yes, but have you seen the times when Bisu devastates a Z main with a slightly delayed Zealot drop? I bet as soon as he sees 2+ sunkens on each base, he drops a robo right away and gets those shuttles.
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On January 24 2011 22:35 Crissaegrim wrote:
Was hoping for a longer game. When Bisu lost all his HTs so carelessly I thought Zero would roll him, instead it didnt matter. Still terrible control from Bisu's part, letting his zealots run forward instead of covering his HTs.
but while Zero is microing, killing all HTs, Bisu is macroing zealots, not microing his zeal/ht army. and it worked.
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On January 24 2011 22:48 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 22:46 teamsolid wrote:On January 24 2011 22:42 pylonsalad wrote:On January 24 2011 22:34 mustaju wrote:On January 24 2011 22:32 pylonsalad wrote:
I think its time for zergs to realize one sunken is not enough. Yes, it's much better for Zergs to build a ton of sunkens, and let the Protoss with Mapcontrol exceed his number of bases. Good advice. Talk about hyperbolizing an argument. Lets compare what is more optimal: 2 sunkens or even god forbid 3 sunkens to hold off the first zealot push without losing like 6-10 drones or 1 sunken and losing mining time as well as those drones. With sunkens, it's not just "2-3 sunkens", you need them at EACH base. So if you made 3 sunkens, on 3 bases you need 9 sunkens. That's like what.... 30+ drones down in cost, which is why it's a terrible idea. you forget that usually Zerg only needs to defend on 2 fronts..
I was just about to say that.
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On January 24 2011 22:42 hellbound wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 22:40 kuroshiroi wrote:On January 24 2011 22:31 hellbound wrote:On January 24 2011 22:30 kuroshiroi wrote:On January 24 2011 22:29 Emon_ wrote:
Why the fuck didn't Zero research lurkers? He did, he just decided to make lots of mutas instead and let Bisu roflstomp all of his bases with pure zealot. He was down to 2base zerg vs 4 base toss at that juncture, what's the point of making lurkers? To defend against the massive amounts of zealots? He had at least 1 lurker defending top left at some point, it may have been only hatcheries at that point but still, hatcheries > no hatcheries. Clearly Zero had enough cash for more lurkers but instead made mutas. I need to rewatch that game though, still don't understand the number of zealots Bisu made. There is no point in defending when you are behind, you either do damage and catch up or it's gg, it's really obvious and bisu knew it, that why he started making those goons. Also the lurkers at the top died, because obs was out.
You do know that many lurkers > many zealots? Observer or no observer.
Bisu played that excellently, this was entirely on Zero to win after he deflected all of those zealot attacks and sniped HT. He failed, Bisu won.
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As of right now: ZvP: 14-26 (35%). Amazing.
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On January 24 2011 22:41 lone_hydra wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 22:33 hellbound wrote:On January 24 2011 22:31 mustaju wrote:On January 24 2011 22:28 chisuri wrote:On January 24 2011 22:27 raga4ka wrote:
Making zealots is apparently a very useful talent toi have . holding against them is basic skill yet... to be discovered. Zero did everything people here have recommended - earlier hydras, later 4th, he managed to snipe a lot of HT, and expanded later, while making a minimum of static defences, and still lost, not because he microed worse but because there were too many. Bisu just took a third and GG. How about fast lurker??????????????? very naive and thoughtless idea 1) fast lurker = low econ, and forces you to play early game aggressive or else you are behind and early game aggressive is not Zero's game, he's a macro mid to late game guy. 2)low amounts of hydras to deal with Bisu's corsair play, try finding the supply to make lurkers 3)making spores at each base with fast lurkers means your econ will suck more and lurker timing will be delayed 4)Bisu is pro, he will sense something when he notices low amounts of hydras or drones with 1st corsair which will get there a lot faster than lurkers (unless you do a cheesy lurker rush, in which case good luck killing bisu probe), then build 2 or 3 more cannons and he's good 5)drops you say? he is massing corsairs, you have little hydras
I guess first you should kill the Bisu probe, then when he's blind you do whatever you want. For a guy playing 100 games every single day, its not that difficult to figure out the right strat, when he scouts chit out of your bo.
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Protss has basically learned to hard counter the spire build. Looks like hydra-bust every game to delay zealot production on account of more cannons is the only option left. Worked good vs stork at least
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On January 24 2011 22:41 Holgerius wrote:
How much did the BO advantage for Bisu play into this victory?
Probably kinda big, but this map looks ridiculous for zergs.
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On January 24 2011 22:49 kuroshiroi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 22:42 hellbound wrote:On January 24 2011 22:40 kuroshiroi wrote:On January 24 2011 22:31 hellbound wrote:On January 24 2011 22:30 kuroshiroi wrote:On January 24 2011 22:29 Emon_ wrote:
Why the fuck didn't Zero research lurkers? He did, he just decided to make lots of mutas instead and let Bisu roflstomp all of his bases with pure zealot. He was down to 2base zerg vs 4 base toss at that juncture, what's the point of making lurkers? To defend against the massive amounts of zealots? He had at least 1 lurker defending top left at some point, it may have been only hatcheries at that point but still, hatcheries > no hatcheries. Clearly Zero had enough cash for more lurkers but instead made mutas. I need to rewatch that game though, still don't understand the number of zealots Bisu made. There is no point in defending when you are behind, you either do damage and catch up or it's gg, it's really obvious and bisu knew it, that why he started making those goons. Also the lurkers at the top died, because obs was out. You do know that many lurkers > many zealots? Observer or no observer.
Too bad lurkers can't fly to bisu's base and hurt his economy.
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On January 24 2011 22:48 Fionn wrote:
Wow. Bisu is 33-2 this season.
He's on his way to shattering the Proleague record books.
30-3
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10387 Posts
On January 24 2011 22:48 teamsolid wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 22:48 ArvickHero wrote:On January 24 2011 22:46 teamsolid wrote:On January 24 2011 22:42 pylonsalad wrote:On January 24 2011 22:34 mustaju wrote:On January 24 2011 22:32 pylonsalad wrote:
I think its time for zergs to realize one sunken is not enough. Yes, it's much better for Zergs to build a ton of sunkens, and let the Protoss with Mapcontrol exceed his number of bases. Good advice. Talk about hyperbolizing an argument. Lets compare what is more optimal: 2 sunkens or even god forbid 3 sunkens to hold off the first zealot push without losing like 6-10 drones or 1 sunken and losing mining time as well as those drones. With sunkens, it's not just "2-3 sunkens", you need them at EACH base. So if you made 3 sunkens, on 3 bases you need 9 sunkens. That's like what.... 30+ drones down in cost, which is why it's a terrible idea. you forget that usually Zerg only needs to defend on 2 fronts.. Yes, but have you seen the times when Bisu devastates a Z main with a slightly delayed Zealot drop? I bet as soon as he sees 2+ sunkens on each base, he drops a robo right away and gets those shuttles.
so far this season I've only seen him do an elevator once vs SK, and that's because SK was turtling HARD (like 4+ sunks I think) and Bisu got the shuttle after his third I believe. There's just no way Bisu will get a shuttle so fast that you need to invest into 2-3 sunks at your main right after he sees your simcity def.
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This discussion is very similar to what happened after Zero vs Flash on Polaris Rhapsody. Zero similarly played nearly perfectly and still convincingly lost to Flash's mech push. In situations like that, theres just nothing left to do
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On January 24 2011 22:54 ArvickHero wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 22:48 teamsolid wrote:On January 24 2011 22:48 ArvickHero wrote:On January 24 2011 22:46 teamsolid wrote:On January 24 2011 22:42 pylonsalad wrote:On January 24 2011 22:34 mustaju wrote:On January 24 2011 22:32 pylonsalad wrote:
I think its time for zergs to realize one sunken is not enough. Yes, it's much better for Zergs to build a ton of sunkens, and let the Protoss with Mapcontrol exceed his number of bases. Good advice. Talk about hyperbolizing an argument. Lets compare what is more optimal: 2 sunkens or even god forbid 3 sunkens to hold off the first zealot push without losing like 6-10 drones or 1 sunken and losing mining time as well as those drones. With sunkens, it's not just "2-3 sunkens", you need them at EACH base. So if you made 3 sunkens, on 3 bases you need 9 sunkens. That's like what.... 30+ drones down in cost, which is why it's a terrible idea. you forget that usually Zerg only needs to defend on 2 fronts.. Yes, but have you seen the times when Bisu devastates a Z main with a slightly delayed Zealot drop? I bet as soon as he sees 2+ sunkens on each base, he drops a robo right away and gets those shuttles. so far this season I've only seen him do an elevator once vs SK, and that's because SK was turtling HARD and Bisu got the shuttle after his third I believe. There's just no way Bisu will get a shuttle so fast that you need to invest into 2-3 sunks at your main right after he sees your simcity def.
Ah, the old keep 2 archons and some zealots in the zerg base forever build, my favorite.
But as our friendly neighborhood PvZ expert said, corsairs are the real bitch in this build, the zealots just help.
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It is obvious the standard zerg builds with the standard simcities is not working. It looks to me like zergs just simply have to admit that they cant drone whore and cant skimp on early defence anymore. Zero's control was not awful as some people are suggesting. He played quite good in my humble opinion. That burrow HT sniping was pimp. The timing window of the first attack has shifted forward. So its time for zergs to accomodate for that by pumping units earlier and living with a lesser economy than before or making more static defence and living with a lesser economy than before.
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On January 24 2011 22:50 xarthaz wrote:
Protss has basically learned to hard counter the spire build. Looks like hydra-bust every game to delay zealot production on account of more cannons is the only option left. Worked good vs stork at least
Zero faked all in, took a fourth behind his third and let the macro advantage carry him to victory, that strat cannot be done on benzene because it's a two player map.
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On January 24 2011 22:47 hellbound wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 22:41 lone_hydra wrote:On January 24 2011 22:33 hellbound wrote:On January 24 2011 22:31 mustaju wrote:On January 24 2011 22:28 chisuri wrote:On January 24 2011 22:27 raga4ka wrote:
Making zealots is apparently a very useful talent toi have . holding against them is basic skill yet... to be discovered. Zero did everything people here have recommended - earlier hydras, later 4th, he managed to snipe a lot of HT, and expanded later, while making a minimum of static defences, and still lost, not because he microed worse but because there were too many. Bisu just took a third and GG. How about fast lurker??????????????? very naive and thoughtless idea 1) fast lurker = low econ, and forces you to play early game aggressive or else you are behind and early game aggressive is not Zero's game, he's a macro mid to late game guy. 2)low amounts of hydras to deal with Bisu's corsair play, try finding the supply to make lurkers 3)making spores at each base with fast lurkers means your econ will suck more and lurker timing will be delayed 4)Bisu is pro, he will sense something when he notices low amounts of hydras or drones with 1st corsair which will get there a lot faster than lurkers (unless you do a cheesy lurker rush, in which case good luck killing bisu probe), then build 2 or 3 more cannons and he's good 5)drops you say? he is massing corsairs, you have little hydras Where did I say low econ lurkers? I meant getting the tech before hidra upgrades, same macro build, it would make defending overlords with slow hidras a chore but it would stop the zealots, and prevent toss taking expos before observer. Somehow it seems that you are suggesting that rolling over and dying is a more thoughtful idea.
Read number 2) and 3), you WILL NOT have the hydras to defend mass corsairs as you force yourself into lurker ling with limited gas
they will just shrug off the hits if you do go through with the morphing of the lurkers, a spore can be shrugged off as well along with 2-3 hydras a base
try microing lurker ling vs storm or reavers
Zero played it right save 2 parts:
Bisu won for 2 reasons even after 2 early slightly sloppy attacks. He trapped a huge amount of Zeros hydras on the 3rd attack on the ramp giving Zero no room to micro. And we should all know what happens when unmovable hydras fight zealots.
The 2nd reason is that Zero scouted the 1st zealot dt attack coming a mile away with scourge, he should have easily realized then he should either a) gotten his other hydras there immediately and not when the zealots were in his mineral line, or b) he`s gonna need some more sunken simcity.
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EPT
