EPTThese two always cockblocking each other from being bonjwa is getting on my nerves already.
[OSL] Semi-Final B free vs Flash - Page 60
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cokencheese
Philippines748 Posts
These two always cockblocking each other from being bonjwa is getting on my nerves already. | ||
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boprandem
Kazakhstan37 Posts
So maybe the problem is not maps? maybe racial disbalance? | ||
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Mumei
United States257 Posts
On September 04 2010 03:48 boprandem wrote: All I hear is this map favours T, that map favours T, that map slighly favours T. And there is no map which favours Z... So maybe the problem is not maps? maybe racial disbalance? You must have missed the discussion about the map (Dreamliner) that favors Z a few pages back.  | ||
snowdrift
France2061 Posts
On September 04 2010 03:48 boprandem wrote: All I hear is this map favours T, that map favours T, that map slighly favours T. And there is no map which favours Z... So maybe the problem is not maps? maybe racial disbalance? Point 13 in an excellent piece about Jaedong written by Letmelose. What the broadcasting companies remembered, was when one zerg was so good (e.g. Savior) that [in] any half-playable map pool for the zerg, the likelihood of a ZvZ finals (disaster for the ratings) would increase quite a bit. That was written in February 2009, and turned out to be quite prophetic. We got two ZvZ finals in summer 2009, and the blowback from that was a slew of crap maps. | ||
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Wings
United States999 Posts
On September 03 2010 21:54 TwoToneTerran wrote: The way I differentiate maps like these is a certain distinction. PR and Odd Eye are bad for zerg. If the zerg and terran play at an equal level, the terran will win everytime. But the maps do not lend themselves to automatic wins from certain builds/racial characteristics. There are ways to work around how "strong" terran is with an intelligent or well timed build, or some proper prediction. Maps like Dreamliner, Battle Royale, and Tears of the Moon are broken. There are no workarounds for certain things that the advantageous race (in this case zerg has been on the favorable side of broken maps in recent times) are likely to do. There's no reasonable counter to the short air distance and easily harassable minerals on dreamliner, as well as other subtle things that make the build even more vicious like the path to the zerg's third gas being as far away as possible, with the only quick route being, amazingly, a deathtrap because of mutas. Odd eye and PR promote a powerful lategame terran army that is difficult to face, not a nearly unstoppable build order that ranges from imbalanced (if you spawn at 3) to unstoppably broken (if you spawn at 6). It's not a setup that has a much later timing to take advantage of, you either win or come out massively ahead 6 minutes into the game because your race's name starts with a Z. well put. I think that's the best descriptions of the maps I've heard so far. | ||
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Danger_Duck
Burkina Faso571 Posts
On September 03 2010 20:32 moopie wrote: Mineral line at 6 is far too exposed to muta harass due to it being vertical against the cliff. Spawning at 3 gives you the mineral line up against the edge of the map, where mutas can't surround it. They really should have rotated the mineral line at 6, don't know wtf they were thinking. ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/maps/392_Flight-Dreamliner.jpg) edit: image added Still dunno why they haven't modified it so that 6 o clock minerals face down and gas face nat to match the 3 clock | ||
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De4ngus
United States6533 Posts
On September 04 2010 07:41 Wings wrote: well put. I think that's the best descriptions of the maps I've heard so far. Dreamliner isn't broken the way Battle Royal was at all. The ground distance isn't that long and zerg's third is wide open no matter where he takes it. | ||
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Garrl
Scotland1976 Posts
On September 04 2010 03:48 boprandem wrote: All I hear is this map favours T, that map favours T, that map slighly favours T. And there is no map which favours Z... So maybe the problem is not maps? maybe racial disbalance? Whenever a map is 45% TvZ, Terrans cry to HELL. | ||
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bluetrolls
United States139 Posts
On September 04 2010 08:57 Garrl wrote: Whenever a map is 45% TvZ, Terrans cry to HELL. It's 23%, but one should never let facts derail one's argument. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/maps/392_Flight-Dreamliner | ||
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mierin
United States4943 Posts
On September 04 2010 12:21 bluetrolls wrote: It's 23%, but one should never let facts derail one's argument. http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/maps/392_Flight-Dreamliner Okay, but seriously, nobody can cry ZergLiner and then be okay with oddeye3 and polaris rhapsody... | ||
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bluetrolls
United States139 Posts
On September 04 2010 12:35 mierin wrote: Okay, but seriously, nobody can cry ZergLiner and then be okay with oddeye3 and polaris rhapsody... IMHO this whole armchair strategists crying about map imba is getting a bit out of hand. As far as I'm concerned, only PR has a large enough data sample to give any statistical meaning, and it's imbalanced only 60-40, not 75-25. That being said, a better judgement should be given by normalizing win rates with Elo ratings. If Flash trumps S2 on Odd-Eye3, it should count little towards T > Z rating of the map. If Sea beats Jaedong on Dreamline, it should count quite a bit against its Z > T rating. I remember seeing such a feature on TL quite a while ago, but it seems that it's not working anymore: http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/maps/balance_table.php Number nerd signing off, keep arguing innate map qualities  | ||
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moopie
12605 Posts
On September 04 2010 12:35 mierin wrote: Okay, but seriously, nobody can cry ZergLiner and then be okay with oddeye3 and polaris rhapsody... Actually yeah they could. Look at it this way: Polaris Rhapsody is very strong for mech in the mid-late game. T's split the map and its insanely hard for Z to break. In the early-mid game, the map isn't actually bad, and zergs often grab their double gas relatively quickly. Until the terran grabs his double gas and macros up a huge amount of tanks, its actually pretty balanced, but requires the Z be aggressive and finish it (or highly cripple the T) before the lategame. Oddeye3 is also a very strong terran map all around and unlike PR, it doesn't let zerg take a 4th gas as easily. While these maps do favor Terran (for different reasons), they are not a guaranteed auto-loss for Zerg, though are certinally terran favored. Dreamliner on the other hand is pretty much an auto-loss for Terrans spawning at 6 (vs mutas). As of now, not a single terran has been able to win at 6 oclock against a zerg that went mutas. We have 3 TvZ wins (23.1% win-rate). Out of these 3, 2 were of terrans spawning at 3 oclock, and the other was Kwanro going hydras instead of mutas (which allowed Leta to win). When terrans spawn at 3, I would still slightly favor Z on the map because of how open it is, allowing surrounds on most expos, but that can be similarly beneficial to bio play, so I see no issues there. The problem is that its a coinflip for TvZ. One one hand you get a pretty balanced map, and on the other its essentially an auto-loss (not that a terran couldn't win, but it would be highly unlikely if the zerg knows how to micro his mutas). Coin flip maps leave too much to chance. Had the map been done with the mineral lines rotated around, it would have actually been a very solid map (though imo its art design would still leave something to be desired but that's not really important). | ||
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Lebesgue
4542 Posts
Q: free has not lost a Game in the OSL, do you think you can End his streak? A: His Win streak will End in the First match of the semis. If I can stop his streak, I'm confident I can easily Win.  free Grand Line SE  Flashfree Flight-Dreamliner Flashfree Polaris Rhapsody Flashfree Eye of the Storm Flashfree 1-3 FlashSeems like Flash is a prophet. | ||
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snowdrift
France2061 Posts
On September 04 2010 13:02 moopie wrote: Actually yeah they could. Look at it this way: Polaris Rhapsody is very strong for mech in the mid-late game. T's split the map and its insanely hard for Z to break. In the early-mid game, the map isn't actually bad, and zergs often grab their double gas relatively quickly. Until the terran grabs his double gas and macros up a huge amount of tanks, its actually pretty balanced, but requires the Z be aggressive and finish it (or highly cripple the T) before the lategame. Same could be said for Dreamliner. "Until the Zerg gets his mutalisks, it's actually pretty balanced, but requires the T be aggressive and finish it (or highly cripple the Z) before the midgame," see Flash vs Hyuk. It isn't Zergs' fault if Terrans can't be arsed to look into their Dirty Terran toolbox. Jaedong after all felt compelled to ling break Light twice on PR -- and it worked, against the second best TvZ player in the world. More sunken breaks are in order, though I can understand that Terrans used to sitting back and maxing out on tanks could have some trouble with that. | ||
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moopie
12605 Posts
On September 04 2010 14:40 snowdrift wrote: Same could be said for Dreamliner. "Until the Zerg gets his mutalisks, it's actually pretty balanced, but requires the T be aggressive and finish it (or highly cripple the Z) before the midgame," see Flash vs Hyuk. It isn't Zergs' fault if Terrans can't be arsed to look into their Dirty Terran toolbox. Jaedong after all felt compelled to ling break Light twice on PR -- and it worked, against the second best TvZ player in the world. More sunken breaks are in order, though I can understand that Terrans used to sitting back and maxing out on tanks could have some trouble with that. So you're comparing going for an aggressive bo to end before a map split around 20 minutes into the game to be on par with needing to finish the game by the time mutas pop (under 6 minutes)? yes, a very early timing push works against the likes of Hyuk, but seriously... And tbh, yeah if flash does spawn at 6, I wouldn't put it past him to bbs, because there isn't much else he can do. He could try to turret like mad up on the cliff, but that will likely end up doing more harm than good. | ||
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snowdrift
France2061 Posts
On September 04 2010 14:50 moopie wrote: So you're comparing going for an aggressive bo to end before a map split around 20 minutes into the game to be on par with needing to finish the game by the time mutas pop (under 6 minutes)? yes, a very early timing push works against the likes of Hyuk, but seriously... And tbh, yeah if flash does spawn at 6, I wouldn't put it past him to bbs, because there isn't much else he can do. He could try to turret like mad up on the cliff, but that will likely end up doing more harm than good. It was Hyuk, but that's why I brought up the fact that a pretty straightforward ling break worked even against a player of Light's caliber. Dreamliner is a bit more extreme, but it's the same quandary. Hell, considering that the glaring issue with the map is one exploitable spot I'd argue that it would probably be easier for Terrans to eventually find a solution to that one problem than for Zergs to overcome PR or Odd-Eye's crappiness. I could see Flash inaugurating a new era on Dreamliner by trying to beat his 100+ turrets game. | ||
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darktreb
United States3017 Posts
On September 04 2010 14:57 snowdrift wrote: It was Hyuk, but that's why I brought up the fact that a pretty straightforward ling break worked even against a player of Light's caliber. Dreamliner is a bit more extreme, but it's the same quandary. Hell, considering that the glaring issue with the map is one exploitable spot I'd argue that it would probably be easier for Terrans to eventually find a solution to that one problem than for Zergs to overcome PR or Odd-Eye's crappiness. I could see Flash inaugurating a new era on Dreamliner by trying to beat his 100+ turrets game. Yeah that's really going to work well while Zerg just takes the entire map, one that would be extremely difficult for Terran to split. You can't just do the 100 turrets strat on any map, there's a reason why it works well on PR and not on others. Spoken like someone who's never played Terran.... The difference between Dreamliner and Odd Eye 3/PR is simple. With Odd Eye and PR Zerg at least gets something like 15 minutes to try to exploit a Terran mistake and win, whereas on Dreamliner if Terran gets 6 o'clock they have approximately 6 minutes to do something before they're fucked. Are Odd Eye and PR bad maps for Zerg? Yes, absolutely. But a map being "bad" for a matchup is not a black and white concept. There are degrees. Also can we please stop using terrible games as evidence and just properly discard them? Flash vs Hyuk proved nothing other than that Hyuk has absolutely terrible ZvT. It had nothing to do with the map and Flash didn't even have a unique push (maybe it had a couple extra Marines but if the Terran pulls off a Creep Colony break it's because Zerg fucked up, period). Similarly, Sea vs Jaedong was one of the biggest blown games of 2010. Even with Sea at 3 o'clock the Dong manhandled him and had pretty much a 5 minute window where he could have kept Sea trapped with the Mutas he already had and just transitioned into ... well, anything. Not to mention Dong taking the exposed double gas which made it so Sea only had to take 3 steps out of his natural to take out 2 of JD's gas as opposed to any other base on the map where he would have had more time to react. Lastly, Leta vs Kwanro was just a disaster by Kwanro. I could talk about it or you could just watch it ... just yikes. So on the one hand you've got the three Terran wins being absolute fuckups by Zerg. On the other hand you've got multiple Zerg wins where Terran makes maybe one mistake here or there (one less Turret, bad Marine micro) and just gets completely rolled. Raw statistics without analysis can be very misleading, and in Dreamliner's case it's very relevant. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
On September 04 2010 13:02 moopie wrote: + Show Spoiler + On September 04 2010 12:35 mierin wrote: Okay, but seriously, nobody can cry ZergLiner and then be okay with oddeye3 and polaris rhapsody... Actually yeah they could. Look at it this way: Polaris Rhapsody is very strong for mech in the mid-late game. T's split the map and its insanely hard for Z to break. In the early-mid game, the map isn't actually bad, and zergs often grab their double gas relatively quickly. Until the terran grabs his double gas and macros up a huge amount of tanks, its actually pretty balanced, but requires the Z be aggressive and finish it (or highly cripple the T) before the lategame. Oddeye3 is also a very strong terran map all around and unlike PR, it doesn't let zerg take a 4th gas as easily. While these maps do favor Terran (for different reasons), they are not a guaranteed auto-loss for Zerg, though are certinally terran favored. Dreamliner on the other hand is pretty much an auto-loss for Terrans spawning at 6 (vs mutas). As of now, not a single terran has been able to win at 6 oclock against a zerg that went mutas. We have 3 TvZ wins (23.1% win-rate). Out of these 3, 2 were of terrans spawning at 3 oclock, and the other was Kwanro going hydras instead of mutas (which allowed Leta to win). When terrans spawn at 3, I would still slightly favor Z on the map because of how open it is, allowing surrounds on most expos, but that can be similarly beneficial to bio play, so I see no issues there. The problem is that its a coinflip for TvZ. One one hand you get a pretty balanced map, and on the other its essentially an auto-loss (not that a terran couldn't win, but it would be highly unlikely if the zerg knows how to micro his mutas). Coin flip maps leave too much to chance. Had the map been done with the mineral lines rotated around, it would have actually been a very solid map (though imo its art design would still leave something to be desired but that's not really important). It's the coinflip aspect of Dreamliner that bugs me the most. If the map's core design is imbalanced, that's one thing--but having one position that's decent, and one that's just awful bugs the hell out of me. | ||
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Rucky
United States717 Posts
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Womwomwom
5930 Posts
On September 04 2010 18:19 Rucky wrote: Can someone explain the problem about Dreamliner? So 6 is worst than 3 because the minerals are vertical at 6 where the cliff is? So mutas can harass it to hell??? But terran will have the natural...and for the mutas to get into that area where you can harass the main, the zerg will basically be telling the mutas to go in there and be trapped by mnm all around??? All I see is a suicide mission for mutas. The timing of the mutalisks and short air distance means a lot. In Hiya vs Zero, it took Zero around 5 minutes to get mutalisks to Hiya's base. Unless your going for some sort of pre-mutalisks megarax sunken bust, you're only going to have around a control group of marines to defend against this. With only that many marines, a sandwich does absolutely nothing to well microed mutalisks. This is also assuming the zerg is an idiot and doesn't know that there is more to a terran's base than their mineral line. | ||
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