[OSL] Semi-Final B free vs Flash - Page 58

On September 03 2010 22:47 b0ub0u wrote:


This is me =)

On September 03 2010 22:26 Scaramanga wrote:

They wern't wrong decisions brought on by the maps, they were wrong decisions brought on by the play of the opponent. If you see a player going mech you have to react to that whatever map it is on, saying that jd played like he did becase of the map is just wrong.

On September 03 2010 22:47 b0ub0u wrote:


This is me =)

On September 03 2010 21:54 TwoToneTerran wrote:
The way I differentiate maps like these is a certain distinction. PR and Odd Eye are bad for zerg. If the zerg and terran play at an equal level, the terran will win everytime. But the maps do not lend themselves to automatic wins from certain builds/racial characteristics. There are ways to work around how "strong" terran is with an intelligent or well timed build, or some proper prediction.

Maps like Dreamliner, Battle Royale, and Tears of the Moon are broken. There are no workarounds for certain things that the advantageous race (in this case zerg has been on the favorable side of broken maps in recent times) are likely to do. There's no reasonable counter to the short air distance and easily harassable minerals on dreamliner, as well as other subtle things that make the build even more vicious like the path to the zerg's third gas being as far away as possible, with the only quick route being, amazingly, a deathtrap because of mutas.

Odd eye and PR promote a powerful lategame terran army that is difficult to face, not a nearly unstoppable build order that ranges from imbalanced (if you spawn at 3) to unstoppably broken (if you spawn at 6). It's not a setup that has a much later timing to take advantage of, you either win or come out massively ahead 6 minutes into the game because your race's name starts with a Z.

On September 03 2010 23:04 Letmelose wrote:


Let's assume for the sake of argument that it is literally impossible for terrans to win against 12 pool into 2 hatchery mutalisks if you play standard on Dreamliner. Say Flash decides to take the risk of pushing out before medics despite the the fact that it is an unneccessary risk on maps that is less taylor-made for mutalisk harass. In fact, let us pretend that Flash deemed that taking that risk was the only way to have a decent chance of winning on Dreamliner.

If a player reads that and simply crushes Flash with a two hit combination of speed lings and a delayed mutalisk harass, would you stop blaming the map because speed ling harass was not what was imbalanced about the map? Not me. I believe that the number of options available for a certain player plays a great part in the balance of the map because it results in difference in the level of difficulty in anticipating what your opponent will do.

Flash had an innate advantage over Jaedong because of the nature of the map pool that not only had various elements favouring terrans, but because the guessing game between the two was tilted before the game even began. The timing pushes he chose against Jaedong were carefully selected in maps where Flash believed that Jaedong would leave himself vulnerable in order to increase his chances of winning against the most potent terran play style on that map. Notice how Jaedong played conservatively against Flash's powerful bionic pressure on Fighting Spirit. He knew he could afford to play conservatively on this map. He also knew that playing conservatively on some of these maps would drastically reduce his chances of winning.

Flash read Jaedong like a book. However, I want to ask yourself this. Assume that all five matches of the MSL finals was to be played on Fighting Spirit. Would it have been that easy for Flash to anticipitate Jaedong's every move? A map where Jaedong feels comfortable enough to go spawning pool first (probably with the thought that it was a build order win against the two extremes of terran play, the early rax pressure and no rax into cc, and a build order disadvantage against standard play he feels he has a chance of recovering from)?

Don't fool yourself. The nature of the map pool in any series play a huge part.

On September 03 2010 20:26 GTR wrote:
if dreamliner is the 1st and 5th map, jd will win.
if any other map is the 1st and 5th map, flash will win.

On September 03 2010 23:04 Letmelose wrote:


Let's assume for the sake of argument that it is literally impossible for terrans to win against 12 pool into 2 hatchery mutalisks if you play standard on Dreamliner. Say Flash decides to take the risk of pushing out before medics despite the the fact that it is an unneccessary risk on maps that is less taylor-made for mutalisk harass. In fact, let us pretend that Flash deemed that taking that risk was the only way to have a decent chance of winning on Dreamliner.

If a player reads that and simply crushes Flash with a two hit combination of speed lings and a delayed mutalisk harass, would you stop blaming the map because speed ling harass was not what was imbalanced about the map? Not me. I believe that the number of options available for a certain player plays a great part in the balance of the map because it results in difference in the level of difficulty in anticipating what your opponent will do.

Flash had an innate advantage over Jaedong because of the nature of the map pool that not only had various elements favouring terrans, but because the guessing game between the two was tilted before the game even began. The timing pushes he chose against Jaedong were carefully selected in maps where Flash believed that Jaedong would leave himself vulnerable in order to increase his chances of winning against the most potent terran play style on that map. Notice how Jaedong played conservatively against Flash's powerful bionic pressure on Fighting Spirit. He knew he could afford to play conservatively on this map. He also knew that playing conservatively on some of these maps would drastically reduce his chances of winning.

Flash read Jaedong like a book. However, I want to ask yourself this. Assume that all five matches of the MSL finals was to be played on Fighting Spirit. Would it have been that easy for Flash to anticipitate Jaedong's every move? A map where Jaedong feels comfortable enough to go spawning pool first (probably with the thought that it was a build order win against the two extremes of terran play, the early rax pressure and no rax into cc, and a build order disadvantage against standard play he feels he has a chance of recovering from)?

Don't fool yourself. The nature of the map pool in any series play a huge part.

On September 03 2010 23:18 tomatriedes wrote:


It's interesting to me that you only choose maps that zerg do well on to be broken. IMO your bias is showing through.

Odd-eye 3: TvZ: 7-2 (77.8%)
Dreamliner TvZ: 3-10 (23.1%

The percentages are the same.
If Dreamliner is broken to the extent you claim Zerg would have not have lost 3 times.
Then you'll counter with- 'well they just lost because they made mistakes'.
Then I can say the same about the terrans on OE3.

Remember Tiamat (TvZ: 5-0 (100%))? Zerg couldn't win a single TvZ on that map the whole season, but I'm sure you'd say that one wasn't broken either.

On September 03 2010 21:08 pretensile wrote:
I don't understand all this whining about Jaedong vs. Flash. How dare the two very best players in the world have the impertinence to win all their matchups! What a disgrace!

Aside from Effort and Fantasy, name me a single other player who has challenged Flash during his current torrid stretch of form in the past year. That's right: Jaedong. Other than an inexplicable "slump" in the month of June, when Flash seemed to lose every single ace match in proleague, Lee Young Ho has been well-nigh unbeatable during this time span. At very least, Jaedong has beaten him once (the infamous Nate MSL!) and pushed him to five in the just-elapsed Bigfile--- who's to say anyone else could do any better? And didn't he just give us the very entertaining (though meaningless) victory over Flash in the WCG 2010 Korea Finals?

On September 03 2010 23:29 revy wrote:

Long story short, dreamliner doesn't have enough games to ascertain its true balance.

On September 03 2010 23:41 amarillo wrote:


This, glad somebody said it finally. Was starting to feel like I was in a Twilight Zone episode as people complained about having to watch arguably the two best players of all time play each other on the biggest stages. That's pretty much my dream scenario.

Jaedong making three MSL finals has been impressive to watch and his performance in the Nate and Bigfile finals only makes me more excited to watch this final. This rivalry isn't over, it's just getting good. In the past Jaedong owned Flash in Bo5s and now Flash has gotten some back. After the Nate MSL Jaedong was sitting on 5 titles and Flash had 2. Now Flash gets up to 4, denying Jaedong 2 along the way which is mindboggling in and of itself, and people are whining.

Watching Flash make 6/6 finals is just incredible and is why I love BW: in other games there would eventually be that random luck factor or bad day where the underdog overcame you but in BW if you're as godlike as Flash you really can win nearly every match.

If you like tennis then watching Federer dominate was not boring, if you like golf then watching Tiger Woods dominate was not boring and if you like basketball then watching Michael Jordan dominate was not boring. If you love the game then watching these greats dominate everyone is sheer art. I think in reality there's a lot of fairweather fans who want the cheap thrill that comes from underdogs winning and new matchups nonstop. Personally I say take every MSL and OSL title till the universe dies of heat death and lock Flash and Jaedong in a room and make them play for every one.

Watching two impossibly good players compete for titles is not my idea of a boring matchup, it's my idea of the most exciting matchup. They aren't just playing against each other, they're playing against history. Greatness is not boring.

On September 03 2010 23:18 tomatriedes wrote:


It's interesting to me that you only choose maps that zerg do well on to be broken. IMO your bias is showing through.

Odd-eye 3: TvZ: 7-2 (77.8%)
Dreamliner TvZ: 3-10 (23.1%

The percentages are the same.
If Dreamliner is broken to the extent you claim Zerg would have not have lost 3 times.
Then you'll counter with- 'well they just lost because they made mistakes'.
Then I can say the same about the terrans on OE3.

Remember Tiamat (TvZ: 5-0 (100%))? Zerg couldn't win a single TvZ on that map the whole season, but I'm sure you'd say that one wasn't broken either.

On September 03 2010 23:47 TwoToneTerran wrote:




The 3 terran wins on the only iteration of dreamliner are all purely pathetic showings from the zerg -- Hyuk dying before mutas, Sea beating Jaedong because Jaedong decided to all-in muta and take the most vulnerable expansion, and the sad sad leta vs kwanro game (sad from Kwanro's perspective).

On September 03 2010 23:24 Scaramanga wrote:

Does flash have to respond how you say on dreamliner? He can do a multitude of things to counter what he thinks is comming. But say flash does do what you say and a player counters it compleatly and wins right off that, yes this has come about from the map and the nature of play that has arised over the games played and flash trying to put himself into the best position to win, but for flash, especially flash who is the number one player in the world to not take this possibiliy into account and plan for it is a joke. A player never goes into a match with a set build order that they will not defer from, so no flash does not have to respond how you say is most likely on dreamliner.

Thats why im saying the maps didn't play as much as a role in flash's two wins as people are saying. If flash decides to push out before medics on dreamliner and jd has gone mass ling and crushes flash, i will say flash was retarded for not scouting this and changing what he is doing, i hold the same opinion for jaedong on polaris for both games.

On September 03 2010 23:18 tomatriedes wrote:


It's interesting to me that you only choose maps that zerg do well on to be broken. IMO your bias is showing through.

Odd-eye 3: TvZ: 7-2 (77.8%)
Dreamliner TvZ: 3-10 (23.1%

The percentages are the same.
If Dreamliner is broken to the extent you claim Zerg would have not have lost 3 times.
Then you'll counter with- 'well they just lost because they made mistakes'.
Then I can say the same about the terrans on OE3.

Remember Tiamat (TvZ: 5-0 (100%))? Zerg couldn't win a single TvZ on that map the whole season, but I'm sure you'd say that one wasn't broken either.

On September 03 2010 23:18 tomatriedes wrote:


It's interesting to me that you only choose maps that zerg do well on to be broken. IMO your bias is showing through.

Odd-eye 3: TvZ: 7-2 (77.8%)
Dreamliner TvZ: 3-10 (23.1%

The percentages are the same.
If Dreamliner is broken to the extent you claim Zerg would have not have lost 3 times.
Then you'll counter with- 'well they just lost because they made mistakes'.
Then I can say the same about the terrans on OE3.

Remember Tiamat (TvZ: 5-0 (100%))? Zerg couldn't win a single TvZ on that map the whole season, but I'm sure you'd say that one wasn't broken either.