On August 20 2010 18:40 TeabagInsurance wrote: Does someone have the picture of the angry jaedong face like he's just about to kill someone? That needs to be posted.
On August 20 2010 18:49 rainei wrote: i think the commentators were saying how Action is doing the same build that Hydra did, and that it ended up being quite a onesided game....
.. it seems the commentators were rite in this case as well..
On August 20 2010 18:54 Emon_ wrote: Practice zvz for a week - Still not close to beating JD
Even if Action did practice any matchup for a week, he'd still be bad at it. He's only good with defilers and it shows in every single matchup he plays (one of the only zergs to have trouble with ZvP, very mediocre at ZvZ, horrible mutalisk micro in every matchup).
Doing good once in a game vs Flash doesn't mean you're automatically top tier. Have you SEEN his other matches? Hell did you just watch that last match? Winning one game or coming close to winning one game is different than a series matchup.
It's exactly why players like Kal, Movie, and Leta(might change) are relegated to proleague status.
On August 20 2010 18:57 Noxide wrote: No surprise in the outcome of that match.
Stork is going to smash Sea as well no problem.
So Jaedong basically getting a by in the semis
I wouldn't really consider Stork a bye if you look at his recent record against JD. I actually think Sea would be an easier opponent, if you look at how bad JD beat him in the MSL on much worse zerg maps.
Stork will put up a good fight and he can probably take it to Game 5 if he is in peak shape, but JD is looking pretty good now as well and I don't see a toss taking a Bo5 from him.
But then again that doesn't matter yet lol :p. Gotta win first.
a day in the life of lee jae dong get up early, have breakfast, take a shower play a few zvts against lomo, win them all. increase difficulty by playing with one hand only, still win have lunch ask pro gamers from other teams for practise games, get denied win some more games against lomo, switching hands still win play 1 game against killer cause OSL quarterfinal is zvz kill him with drones only head over to OGN studio, no need for make up destroy action smile bow head back to oz house bitchslap coach, destroy killer and ggameo playing 2v1 fan girls coming over, want to suck dick bitchslap them go to bed
On August 20 2010 18:53 ohN wrote: gg. JD wins Kinda feel bad for action, I feel he'd get far in this osl if he met ANYONE besides JD.
no please stop over hyping him. He isn't that good yet.
He really is, at least when it comes to late-game management. Watch his game vs Flash for example.
That's the thing - late game management. You can be the god of using battlecruisers but its not useful if you can't even get to that stage.
That's the thing - he would stand a much, much greater chance of reaching that if it wasn't fucking ZvZ vs JD.
No let's look at it this way: Free and Stork can probably kill him with reaver harassment or timing attacks. His ZvP is that bad, he has shown again and again he's horrible at the matchup and struggles even against the most mediocre of protoss players.
Flash, who got his groove back, would probably do so much damage to Action that no hive tech play would save him. He has poor lair tech play so keeping the terran contained would be impossible.
He's not good at ZvZ so he probably wouldn't beat Zero either.
As zerg, late game management only means something if you can get to it with all of your limbs intact. Action can't do this most of the time, he gets embarrassed during the early game and everyone still in the OSL is easily good enough to do this to him.
On August 20 2010 18:57 Noxide wrote: No surprise in the outcome of that match.
Stork is going to smash Sea as well no problem.
So Jaedong basically getting a by in the semis
I wouldn't really consider Stork a bye if you look at his recent record against JD. I actually think Sea would be an easier opponent, if you look at how bad JD beat him in the MSL on much worse zerg maps.
Lol, yeah, was just trolling Stork-fans a bit. Still think Jaedong would be the overwhelming favorite in a BO5 though given his ZvP and Stork hasn't been doing well lately.
On August 20 2010 18:57 Noxide wrote: No surprise in the outcome of that match.
Stork is going to smash Sea as well no problem.
So Jaedong basically getting a by in the semis
I wouldn't really consider Stork a bye if you look at his recent record against JD. I actually think Sea would be an easier opponent, if you look at how bad JD beat him in the MSL on much worse zerg maps.
Lol, yeah, was just trolling Stork-fans a bit. Still think Jaedong would be the overwhelming favorite in a BO5 though given his ZvP and Stork hasn't been doing well lately.
Yeah no doubt about JD still being the clear favorite
On August 20 2010 18:53 ohN wrote: gg. JD wins Kinda feel bad for action, I feel he'd get far in this osl if he met ANYONE besides JD.
no please stop over hyping him. He isn't that good yet.
He really is, at least when it comes to late-game management. Watch his game vs Flash for example.
That's the thing - late game management. You can be the god of using battlecruisers but its not useful if you can't even get to that stage.
That's the thing - he would stand a much, much greater chance of reaching that if it wasn't fucking ZvZ vs JD.
No let's look at it this way: Free and Stork can probably kill him with reaver harassment or timing attacks. His ZvP is that bad, he has shown again and again he's horrible at the matchup and struggles even against the most mediocre of protoss players.
Flash, who got his groove back, would probably do so much damage to Action that no hive tech play would save him. He has poor lair tech play so keeping the terran contained would be impossible.
He's not good at ZvZ so he probably wouldn't beat Zero either.
As zerg, late game management only means something if you can get to it with all of your limbs intact. Action can't do this most of the time, he gets embarrassed during the early game.
Meh, I think you are underrating him. Did you see him curb-stomp Leta, shutting down his harassment with great defensive play, for example? He would stand a better chance vs anyone else, even Flash, because there is no proper late-game in ZvZ (except 1 game in a 100, and every game with Great).
On August 20 2010 18:53 ohN wrote: gg. JD wins Kinda feel bad for action, I feel he'd get far in this osl if he met ANYONE besides JD.
no please stop over hyping him. He isn't that good yet.
He really is, at least when it comes to late-game management. Watch his game vs Flash for example.
That's the thing - late game management. You can be the god of using battlecruisers but its not useful if you can't even get to that stage.
That's the thing - he would stand a much, much greater chance of reaching that if it wasn't fucking ZvZ vs JD.
No let's look at it this way: Free and Stork can probably kill him with reaver harassment or timing attacks. His ZvP is that bad, he has shown again and again he's horrible at the matchup and struggles even against the most mediocre of protoss players.
Flash, who got his groove back, would probably do so much damage to Action that no hive tech play would save him. He has poor lair tech play so keeping the terran contained would be impossible.
He's not good at ZvZ so he probably wouldn't beat Zero either.
As zerg, late game management only means something if you can get to it with all of your limbs intact. Action can't do this most of the time, he gets embarrassed during the early game.
Meh, I think you are underrating him. Did you see him curb-stomp Leta, shutting down his harassment with great defensive play, for example? He would stand a better chance vs anyone else, even Flash, because there is no proper late-game in ZvZ (except 1 game in a 100, and every game with Great).
Just throwing it out there, but there is a good reason why two port wraith in TvZ was buried into the ground. Because its really easy to block if you prepare for it properly, its resource intensive, and severely limits your army composition since you don't have enough gas to pump out tanks.
I know Effort lost to it, but Effort is a guy who can lose to anything. If I'm not wrong, Effort has lost to Stats three times in a row so far: to a 4 gate powergoon, to the Bisu build, and to the Bisu build again.
Sorry again guys, but I will repeat my question: please can anyone tell me why do some progamers such as Sea and Bisu have (Shield) in their nicknames, sorry for offtopic, Just want to find out((???
On August 20 2010 19:19 letian wrote: Sorry again guys, but I will repeat my question: please can anyone tell me why do some progamers such as Sea and Bisu have (Shield) in their nicknames, sorry for offtopic, Just want to find out((???
On August 20 2010 19:19 letian wrote: Sorry again guys, but I will repeat my question: please can anyone tell me why do some progamers such as Sea and Bisu have (Shield) in their nicknames, sorry for offtopic, Just want to find out((???
On August 20 2010 19:19 letian wrote: Sorry again guys, but I will repeat my question: please can anyone tell me why do some progamers such as Sea and Bisu have (Shield) in their nicknames, sorry for offtopic, Just want to find out((???
it's a clan there have been a hundred people asking that, pls use the search funtion
On August 20 2010 19:19 letian wrote: Sorry again guys, but I will repeat my question: please can anyone tell me why do some progamers such as Sea and Bisu have (Shield) in their nicknames, sorry for offtopic, Just want to find out((???
it's a clan there have been a hundred people asking that, pls use the search funtion
On August 20 2010 19:27 SkelA wrote: Stork decision making and micro in pvt are not matched by any toss
yeah his decision to rvr harass the third while defending only with carriers was good on the other hand, not pulling probes from his third was stupid t.t
On August 20 2010 19:27 SkelA wrote: Stork decision making and micro in pvt are not matched by any toss
yeah his decision to rvr harass the third while defending only with carriers was good on the other hand, not pulling probes from his third was stupid t.t
well attacking sea 3rd with reaver goon and at the same time defending his natural against that push its understandable to miss those 2 vults in his 3rd
On August 20 2010 19:27 SkelA wrote: Stork decision making and micro in pvt are not matched by any toss
yeah his decision to rvr harass the third while defending only with carriers was good on the other hand, not pulling probes from his third was stupid t.t
Well typical Stork, great gameplan, good execution except he likes losing probes and walking his goons into mines, what can I say... Probably due to his 250apm... Well, Stork <3
Stork is so good with Carriers. And it didn't really help Sea that the map was designed to be as great for Carrier abuse as possible. XD Would love to see a Stork vs Flash finals so we can see Flash's solution to it.
i am very happy that Stork won, even though you got to admit that this map is kinda carrier imb vs terran. But still, Stork do not have to apologize for this win, he did not win it due to map imb, but due to great micro and decision making.
Keep this up Stork and make it to the semi. Vs Jaedong though he stands no chance. Storks pvz is not good enough to counter JD. Would have been epic to see Stork go up against Flash.
On August 20 2010 19:27 SkelA wrote: Stork decision making and micro in pvt are not matched by any toss
yeah his decision to rvr harass the third while defending only with carriers was good on the other hand, not pulling probes from his third was stupid t.t
well attacking sea 3rd with reaver goon and at the same time defending his natural against that push its understandable to miss those 2 vults in his 3rd
when i come to think of it he couldnt even pull probes since sea was attacking his nat but he could have defended it with a few goons instead
On August 20 2010 19:32 p14c wrote: Can Valkyries be used against interceptors because on this map Goliaths are not working?
I think interceptors are considered as small units so valkyries do half damage to them. Since air upgrades are seperate from ground upgrades, its not an option especially since goliaths are pretty good at zealot defense too.
You guys gotta remember that only Stork seems to be able to use carriers effectively on this map. I remember Jangbi and Brave using them in an unspectacular fashion.
On August 20 2010 19:33 purpose wrote: i am very happy that Stork won, even though you got to admit that this map is kinda carrier imb vs terran. But still, Stork do not have to apologize for this win, he did not win it due to map imb, but due to great micro and decision making.
Keep this up Stork and make it to the semi. Vs Jaedong though he stands no chance. Storks pvz is not good enough to counter JD. Would have been epic to see Stork go up against Flash.
Stork PvT is 3-0 on this map. Oddly enough, all involving getting screwed at first and then comeback with carriers. Other protosses are a combined 3-5 PvT on the map. So while Stork abused the carrier imba, it doesn't seem to affect the map in general.
Also, Sea's style got the best of him. Stork skimped on troop production for quite a while in that game(had 3 gates to Sea's 4 facts for a bit). If Sea had gone with any sort of 2-base push, Stork would've gged easily.
Even though this map is good for Carriers, its not like every protoss can just 2 base carriers and win easy. Stork is not only amazing at carrier micro, but more important he is great at setting himself up for carrier play.
Stork is just so damn good when it comes to judging the situation and making the correct decisions that It looks so damn easy when he does it.
On August 20 2010 19:35 Holgerius wrote: Stork should start going Carriers vs Zerg again. His PvZ used to be so awesome. ^__^
yeah, but then kespa removed Andromeda
andromeda pvz was the best!
read: stork vs ggplay
That game was so cool. He had more awesome games on that map too, like vs Luxury. But nothing beats Stork vs Gorush (?) on Neo Requiem. That game blew my mind when I watched it for the first time. XD
On August 20 2010 19:35 Holgerius wrote: Stork should start going Carriers vs Zerg again. His PvZ used to be so awesome. ^__^
yeah, but then kespa removed Andromeda
andromeda pvz was the best!
read: stork vs ggplay
That game was so cool. He had more awesome games on that map too, like vs Luxury. But nothing beats Stork vs Gorush (?) on Neo Requiem. That game blew my mind when I watched it for the first time. XD
oo, I think I've seen the second half of that game, but I don't remember it too well.
On August 20 2010 19:40 Highways wrote: Dunno why but I am enjoying the Gamescom IEM more
Flash please lose.
only 11 pages with two games already played on OSL Ro8, looks like you're not the only one
go Zero!
nah, it's because there's only game 1's today.
Or because JDs game ended so fast and Bisu is out (yeah every thread jumps 20 pages everytime Bisu plays :\) and the other player with a big fanbase (Flash) hasnt played yet.
Im surprised to see that Sea (also a crowd favorite) didnt spark up the page count...
Yeah Im just grasping straws I guess probably just a split between BW and SC2.
On August 20 2010 19:40 Highways wrote: Dunno why but I am enjoying the Gamescom IEM more
Flash please lose.
only 11 pages with two games already played on OSL Ro8, looks like you're not the only one
go Zero!
well and when I occasionally watch SC2 I often go and make some dinner, cause I don't really give a ch** , as long as koreans won't play sc2 I will never do)))
On August 20 2010 19:40 Highways wrote: Dunno why but I am enjoying the Gamescom IEM more
Flash please lose.
only 11 pages with two games already played on OSL Ro8, looks like you're not the only one
go Zero!
nah, it's because there's only game 1's today.
Or because JDs game ended so fast and Bisu is out (yeah every thread jumps 20 pages everytime Bisu plays :\) and the other player with a big fanbase (Flash) hasnt played yet.
Im surprised to see that Sea (also a crowd favorite) didnt spark up the page count...
Yeah Im just grasping straws I guess probably just a split between BW and SC2.
Stork is also a crowd favorite.
But the game was rather one-sided because Stork is a lot better than Sea, hence not that much tension.
Jesus christ this harras is just insane, at all three bases theres some form of units killing drones or overlords, zero's struggling hard to defend it Just hope that free's multitask can keep up and he can roll over that lurker contain
Free loses all his corsairs for no apparent reason, so he pushes out with zealot/goon/templar and does an unprotected (but successful) storm drop on Zero's natural.
Free's ninja expo got killed, but Zero's drone counts are bad, so Free's 2 bases may just overpower Zero's three right now.
On August 20 2010 20:17 TwoToneTerran wrote: Rofl nevermind. Flash's 2 losses to terran in the OSL came at the hands of Upmagic in 2008 and Frozen in 2007.
On August 20 2010 20:22 sAAvior wrote: Can you get pocari in Europe ?
Dont know, you can not in Sweden at least. I was on vacation in Bali (Indonesia) and they had it there. So of course I had to try it out. Does not taste that good tbh, its like lemonade or similar If I remember correct.
On August 20 2010 20:32 Ace wrote: Neither play really has an advantage yet. Leta constantly pushing Flash and both losing small armies. No one has solid map control yet.
You have nfi, flash has lost a ton of scv's and is in serious trouble
One wraith chasing the dropships that go for bottom left now. Leta down to two ships, but Flash runs his SCVS ... INTO VULTURES. Flash losing his CC at bottom left!
Ahhhh, Leta's drop pulls Flash's forces away from Flash's forth, exposing it to ground assault from tank/gollie. Leta kills the CC, but Flash pins Leta's force so he can't retreat.
Leta is on about 9 factories now. Flash still macroing strong, but he cannot reclaim his fourth for now and Leta is controlling all other bases on the map.
Finally Flash clears out bottom, 2 ships for him now. Leta looking to drop again.
Flash is pushing towards 9 right now. 5 dropships head towards bottom but are chased away by a Goliath. Quite a number of tanks for flash. Leta 40 supply ahead for a moment.
Flash is sieging up next to the base at 9 and pushing towards Leta's natural. Suddenly, Leta isn't mining all that much - only top right and 3. Income about equal, Flash ahead in supply ...
Leta placing some tanks next to 9, where the next fights are bound to happen. He has stockpiled 2K gas, I wonder if BCs would be viable for him. He's taking the min only on the right half.
Leta, just like Fantasy, wins the game against Flash and then completely throws it away with stupid, pointless aggression. Instead of controlling the map and all the expansions, he decides to attack hardened locations with fragile Terran units.
Now Leta has to spread out dangerously to defend his expansions, and he has few units/dropships to defend. Flash should win from this position.
On August 20 2010 20:45 sAAvior wrote: Two very successful vulture raids + fail drop = gg. Once again Flash proved he is just different class than other terrans.
Not that he isn't, but I'm not sure having your opponent throw away 50 supply really proves that you're in a different class...
When he dropped there the first time, there was one turret. Victory. When he dropped the second time, 3 turrents. Victory. Third time, there were many turrets. Defeat.
On August 20 2010 20:45 SkelA wrote: those drops geez how can you do that and not scaning before ..... well its safe to say that flash is gonna win this XD
Don't call it yet... maybe flash will return the favour..... -.- god this makes me sick <.<
Flash is sending out a fleet of dropships now, probably into Leta's factories, since he olds the base just below. Tank exchange near 9, Flash come out slightly ahead.
Dropships not going for the main but apparently for the base at 3 where a lot of turrets are . Reversal?
Flash does a mass-drop just like Leta's, except he uses a floating building to cancel out turret AI. Apparently turrets don't prioritize units over buildings!!!
Suddenly Leta is ahead in supply again. He is effectively still mining from three bases. Flash has tons of money heaped up though. Neither going for a Lategame tech-switch yet.
As you can see, TvT is very hard to finish off if you don't do it by early-mid game. The longer you let the opponent play, the more it evens out if you're behind. Flash appears to be the master of the mid-late game in TvT.
Those of you thinking Leta had an advantage early on were correct. But it was only an advantage and nothing more.
This game is handed to Flash by leta. He did not make a epic comeback like vs Flash. Only the biggest fanboys can claim that this was due to flash skills.
that's how flash wins lategame turtle until opponent makes mistake machine macro into oblivion
People say it's "turtling" but hes just sensible and don't throw away stuff mindlessly as other terrans. You don't attack if you don't have advantage in given ares it's ABC strategy in about every strategy game.
On August 20 2010 20:52 Aesop wrote: Both scannig and maneuvering around. Flash apparently wants to push for one of the mineral-onlies, but can't decide.
Leta finding no way to clear out that drop at the top, and Flash is now advancing through the middle with tanks and ships. Leta has more tanks than expected though, I think Flash is overestimating himself.
On August 20 2010 20:50 ssj114 wrote: As you can see, TvT is very hard to finish off if you don't do it by early-mid game. The longer you let the opponent play, the more it evens out if you're behind. Flash appears to be the master of the mid-late game in TvT.
Those of you thinking Leta had an advantage early on were correct. But it was only an advantage and nothing more.
Leta had complete, uncontestable map control and a heavy lead in units and economy. He should've ridden this advantage into control of all the contested expansions and won easily.
Instead, he suicided fifty supply of units against statics.
Flash is sending hin his SCVs along with other forces towards the min only at 9. Manages to take out the army there at last and might be taking that base next.
Why does keep having so many seperated units? I think that he should just allin the mining base with everything he has, SCVs included. He can't win with depleted gaysers, and should just let them get destroyed if need be.
Lonely drop-leftover-Goliath kills gas mining SCVs at Leta's main - not something he can afford. Flash mining minerals with full capacity now. Leta pushing towards the forces in middle map. Runs into a minefiled. that might have been it finally.
I cannot belive how Flash just decided " meh i'm going to take the last mineral base" and he just got there and took it.And Leta did nothing about it..
Flash going for the final attack, but loses quite a few tanks to Leta's tankforce that is left. 91 vs. 43. Leta is going to fight this until the end it seems
On August 20 2010 21:04 zmeqt wrote: I cannot belive how Flash just decided " meh i'm going to take the last mineral base" and he just got there and took it.And Leta did nothing about it..
flash was way ahead in dropships, leta just wouldn't have been able to drop enough
Leta had a chance to take min only but turns away because of only one Goliath. Now tries again when reinforcements get there and gets owned. Awful. Completely horrible game by Leta.
On August 20 2010 21:03 setzer wrote: Good job Leta, you blew your chance at an OSL title. Flash's most undeserved victory ever. It's pretty amazing how much luck he has.
Luck has nothing to do with it! Flash's late game is just out of this world. But Leta did play this quite strangely though.
I gotta say, while I love seeing Flash coming back and winning from near-impossible situations, I sort of wish he wouldn't let himself get in such disadvantages to begin with. His lategame has become beyond godly, but in the early game he always manages to slip up.
On August 20 2010 21:03 setzer wrote: Good job Leta, you blew your chance at an OSL title. Flash's most undeserved victory ever. It's pretty amazing how much luck he has.
Luck has nothing to do with it! Flash's late game is just out of this world. But Leta did play this quite strangely though.
That B-T micro that made him win was sooo good. Flash starsense, he knew Leta would throw 60 supply of units. He prepared for that the entire game.
On August 20 2010 21:05 Shikyo wrote: Leta had a chance to take min only but turns away because of only one Goliath. Now tries again when reinforcements get there and gets owned. Awful. Completely horrible game by Leta.
He didn't have units in those dropships they were just spotters.
One big fuckup by Leta and he lost the match. He was in control but doing the drop from one side to the other side of the map got predictable and he fell into the trap.
Pro TvT would be so much better if they realized: -Expansion are important -Terran has a heavy defender's advantage
The mechanics are great, but the lategame decisions are worthless. Fantasy threw away his victories against Flash and now Leta is doing the same. And Flash, who isn't afflicted with the same utter retardation, just waits fifteen minutes on a clearly game-losing disadvantage until his opponent kills themselves.
It's like spawncamping in FPS, except you're camping your own spawn and the enemy shoots himself.
Well he probably didn't scan the static d because last time he was in there the turreting was minimal and a scan would likely tip flash off to the incoming drop. The pressure of playing Flash also made Leta take more risks like this than he needed to just to get the edge in each engagement. Saying he's idiotic/d+ just reflects badly on posters, Leta has amazing tvt and was dominating flash throughout the early-mid game.
On August 20 2010 21:08 Severedevil wrote: Pro TvT would be so much better if they realized: -Expansion are important -Terran has a heavy defender's advantage
God damn, Leta's understanding of the mu is ridiculously deeper than yours.
On August 20 2010 21:08 Severedevil wrote: For fuck's sake
Pro TvT would be so much better if they realized: -Expansion are important -Terran has a heavy defender's advantage
The mechanics are great, but the lategame decisions are worthless. Fantasy threw away his victories against Flash and now Leta is doing the same. And Flash, who isn't afflicted with the same utter retardation, just waits fifteen minutes on a clearly game-losing disadvantage until his opponent kills themselves.
It's like spawncamping in FPS, except you're camping your own spawn and the enemy shoots himself.
Could someone explain to me why the people with an advantage don't just get more bases than their opponent and built 30 turrets on every expansion and just mass tanks until switching into BCs? Why do they try to do all these drops and stuff when at an advantage, isn't that something you do when behind?
On August 20 2010 21:08 Severedevil wrote: For fuck's sake
Pro TvT would be so much better if they realized: -Expansion are important -Terran has a heavy defender's advantage
The mechanics are great, but the lategame decisions are worthless. Fantasy threw away his victories against Flash and now Leta is doing the same. And Flash, who isn't afflicted with the same utter retardation, just waits fifteen minutes on a clearly game-losing disadvantage until his opponent kills themselves.
It's like spawncamping in FPS, except you're camping your own spawn and the enemy shoots himself.
Flash also knows when to attack... He does not only turtle... Well at least against Fanta, in this game... Yeah Leta's decision making was bad.
He was shaken too much when his dropships were destroyed by turrets. from then he began to choke Leta, if you want to win big titles you need to improve mentality.
On August 20 2010 21:08 Severedevil wrote: For fuck's sake
Pro TvT would be so much better if they realized: -Expansion are important -Terran has a heavy defender's advantage
The mechanics are great, but the lategame decisions are worthless. Fantasy threw away his victories against Flash and now Leta is doing the same. And Flash, who isn't afflicted with the same utter retardation, just waits fifteen minutes on a clearly game-losing disadvantage until his opponent kills themselves.
It's like spawncamping in FPS, except you're camping your own spawn and the enemy shoots himself.
When you are a pro terran starcraft player with years of experience your opinion will matter. Until then, if you don't like it, don't watch it.
On August 20 2010 21:08 Holgerius wrote: Holy fucking shit, that was so impressive. BW doesn't get more epic than Flash's TvT. I'm speechless.
You have to be kidding me. Flash impressive in that game? Maybe after Leta decided to suicided 7 dropships full of units, then lost 25 scvs to 8 vultures max. Sorry, but Flash was getting completely manhandled until that point. Although I know Flash would have killed Leta if he had more time to practice, don't chock this one up as another "typical amazing Flash tvt" it was nothing like that.
On August 20 2010 21:11 purpose wrote: You got to give one thing to Flash though. He is to only Terran who has figured out that MAKING TURRETS is a good talent toi have!!!
Poor leta though, he had flash in this game but just gave it away with that horrible drop.
no, he could've had the game when flash mined out everything as well, he had it in his grasp til the end and had to just bank his minerals and not make vulture
Ahahahaha WOW! I remember seeing Flash 30 supply behind Leta about 12 minutes into the game, then switching to Gamescom and coming back to see 20 pages later and see Flash come back and win from an insane disadvantage AGAIN.
On August 20 2010 21:09 Scarecrow wrote: Well he probably didn't scan the static d because last time he was in there the turreting was minimal and a scan would likely tip flash off to the incoming drop.
First drop: 2 turrets, second drop: 4 turrets, third drop: a lot more. Why wouldn't you scan before the third one? Also, Flash is known for building an abnormal number of turrets at these kind of locations.
btw: Flash always knew when Leta was about to drop. He knows how to scan and scout properly.
Yeah, don't use this game to say Flash's TvT is good -_-
Going from 200 to 140 supply in 10 seconds from going back and forth over turrets instead of dropping will lose anyone the game. Flash was getting dominated up to that point.
On August 20 2010 21:03 setzer wrote: Good job Leta, you blew your chance at an OSL title. Flash's most undeserved victory ever. It's pretty amazing how much luck he has.
Luck? You mean it was Flash who pulled ahead in early game with ridiculous mines? But yes, flash is so lucky that out of all terrans he's like the only one who knows how to play tvt. So lucky.
On August 20 2010 21:14 De4ngus wrote: Yeah, don't use this game to say Flash's TvT is good -_-
Going from 200 to 140 supply in 10 seconds from going back and forth over turrets instead of dropping will lose anyone the game. Flash was getting dominated up to that point.
Actually I think it's the perfect example of why Flash's TvT is good. When he has a disadvantage he just sits back and waits for the other player to fuck up. The reason he can do this is because his late-game is rock solid.
On August 20 2010 21:03 setzer wrote: Good job Leta, you blew your chance at an OSL title. Flash's most undeserved victory ever. It's pretty amazing how much luck he has.
Luck? You mean it was Flash who pulled ahead in early game with ridiculous mines? But yes, flash is so lucky that out of all terrans he's like the only one who knows how to play tvt. So lucky.
What he's trying to say is that flash is lucky that he was playing a really weak opponent.
On August 20 2010 21:03 setzer wrote: Good job Leta, you blew your chance at an OSL title. Flash's most undeserved victory ever. It's pretty amazing how much luck he has.
Luck? You mean it was Flash who pulled ahead in early game with ridiculous mines? But yes, flash is so lucky that out of all terrans he's like the only one who knows how to play tvt. So lucky.
Flash definitely did not pull ahead in the early game.....
Why are ppl bitching about Flash's TvT? He just played some the best tvt, EVER with the course of 24 hours. Leta threw his lead away, but its a fuckign MIRACLE that Flash didn't die in the midgame alone, 10 factories vs 5, what a joke. His dropship flight path to take out the BCs and the timing to take that mineral only. Why dont ppl jus appreciate a good game when you see one...
On August 20 2010 21:14 De4ngus wrote: Yeah, don't use this game to say Flash's TvT is good -_-
Going from 200 to 140 supply in 10 seconds from going back and forth over turrets instead of dropping will lose anyone the game. Flash was getting dominated up to that point.
Actually I think it's the perfect example of why Flash's TvT is good. When he has a disadvantage he just sits back and waits for the other player to fuck up. The reason he can do this is because his late-game is rock solid.
That's more of the opponents' lack of gamesense, though. His lack of early game TvT will most likely bite him in the ass. Sooner or later.
On August 20 2010 21:03 setzer wrote: Good job Leta, you blew your chance at an OSL title. Flash's most undeserved victory ever. It's pretty amazing how much luck he has.
Luck? You mean it was Flash who pulled ahead in early game with ridiculous mines? But yes, flash is so lucky that out of all terrans he's like the only one who knows how to play tvt. So lucky.
I guess you didn't watch the game because Leta was always up 15-25 supply and an extra base. And that was with bad macro.
Wow Leta almost still won even after donating 50 food (including an entire Dropship fleet). As good as Flash is that was simply a BLOWN game by Leta. Can you condense "how to blow a won game" into anything more than that?
That donation by Leta might turn out to be huge for Flash's career legacy. I really wouldn't have expected Flash to win both games next week the day before MSL finals (probably against the Dong). Now he can potentially "all-in practice" for game 2 in hopes of taking the series 2-0 while focusing on the finals. That mistake probably keeps Flash in both leagues and keeps his hopes alive to make every final for an entire year.
On August 20 2010 21:08 Severedevil wrote: For fuck's sake
Pro TvT would be so much better if they realized: -Expansion are important -Terran has a heavy defender's advantage
The mechanics are great, but the lategame decisions are worthless. Fantasy threw away his victories against Flash and now Leta is doing the same. And Flash, who isn't afflicted with the same utter retardation, just waits fifteen minutes on a clearly game-losing disadvantage until his opponent kills themselves.
It's like spawncamping in FPS, except you're camping your own spawn and the enemy shoots himself.
Could someone explain to me why the people with an advantage don't just get more bases than their opponent and built 30 turrets on every expansion and just mass tanks until switching into BCs? Why do they try to do all these drops and stuff when at an advantage, isn't that something you do when behind?
Because in TvT advantage in base count isn't as important early on as advantage in map control. If you out expand your opponent you still need lots of units pumping to keep map position so the other guy doesn't move out.
So you expand, pump units, pump scvs and then build turrets. All of this while still constantly scanning and moving around armies. If Leta didn't have those dropships Flash would have freely expanded to the bottom of the map and evened up the game. Notice that mid game Leta dropped Flash so many times that Flash had to fight tooth and nail to the bone to get those 2 bases back. Leta kept his advantage, bought time to pump out a ridiculous number of SCVs AND turreted up all his bases.
Then he lost all of his main army in 7 dropships and Flash vulture raided him at 2 bases. Shit happens.
I love Flash as much as anyone but he was GIVEN that game. There's no way he wins that without Leta's donation. It was way more than "just" 50 food - Leta was basically on the edge of securing more than half the map (more than half the gas) and sealing the deal.
The only thing Flash did to earn that donation was build up his reputation for making the impossible happen in late game TvT, thus causing panic and bad decisions in his opponents. What other explanation is there for his opponents, who are otherwise competent professionals, just giving away 50 food in drops? I can't remember a single other game in the past 6 months where one Terran made as bad of a decision as multiple different bad decisions Leta and Fantasy have made in their WCG and OSL/MSL games with Flash....
This game is just another demonstration that Flash's TvT is not really that good. He still somehow pulls out wins because of his incredible skill level, but he has to come from behind soooooooo often which makes it really difficult. He was significantly behind in at least 3/5 games yesterday against Fanta, and this is a common theme throughout most if his recent TvTs. He ends up at a disadvantage early on, but then pulls level and wins anyway because he is Flash.
As the Chinese commentators pointed out yesterday, it's scary to think how Flash could dominate TvT if he had the power of Boxer and oov behind him like Fanta does...
On August 20 2010 21:23 darktreb wrote: I love Flash as much as anyone but he was GIVEN that game. There's no way he wins that without Leta's donation. It was way more than "just" 50 food - Leta was basically on the edge of securing more than half the map (more than half the gas) and sealing the deal.
While what you say is likely, given Flash's recent TvT games, you should avoid statements like "There's no way...", many have said them before you, and have been wrong
Sigh, that was so dissapointing from Leta. I was rooting for him really hard, but that dropship donation was just soo terrible. That really was some amazing mines in the early game though. I hope we can expect a little better from Leta next time.
On August 20 2010 21:23 darktreb wrote: I love Flash as much as anyone but he was GIVEN that game. There's no way he wins that without Leta's donation. It was way more than "just" 50 food - Leta was basically on the edge of securing more than half the map (more than half the gas) and sealing the deal.
The only thing Flash did to earn that donation was build up his reputation for making the impossible happen in late game TvT, thus causing panic and bad decisions in his opponents. What other explanation is there for his opponents, who are otherwise competent professionals, just giving away 50 food in drops? I can't remember a single other game in the past 6 months where one Terran made as bad of a decision as multiple different bad decisions Leta and Fantasy have made in their WCG and OSL/MSL games with Flash....
I believe a certain b word fits all those characteristics.
Of course, that's just part of the game and what makes Flash so great. Even if he's behind, he plays in a way to maximize his opponents possibilities for screwing up, and all it takes is one mistake for him to get back into it. That's the sign of a great player
For those of you saying Flash was behind in majority of yesterday's games vs Fantasy, or that his early game TvT is bad clearly don't understand the matchup at all.
On August 20 2010 21:23 darktreb wrote: I love Flash as much as anyone but he was GIVEN that game. There's no way he wins that without Leta's donation. It was way more than "just" 50 food - Leta was basically on the edge of securing more than half the map (more than half the gas) and sealing the deal.
The only thing Flash did to earn that donation was build up his reputation for making the impossible happen in late game TvT, thus causing panic and bad decisions in his opponents. What other explanation is there for his opponents, who are otherwise competent professionals, just giving away 50 food in drops? I can't remember a single other game in the past 6 months where one Terran made as bad of a decision as multiple different bad decisions Leta and Fantasy have made in their WCG and OSL/MSL games with Flash....
nothing like constant pressure to make even one of the most talented to crack and eventually collapse there's something about playing the kid and getting dragged to the deep then failing to hold your breath.
On August 20 2010 21:23 darktreb wrote: I love Flash as much as anyone but he was GIVEN that game. There's no way he wins that without Leta's donation. It was way more than "just" 50 food - Leta was basically on the edge of securing more than half the map (more than half the gas) and sealing the deal.
The only thing Flash did to earn that donation was build up his reputation for making the impossible happen in late game TvT, thus causing panic and bad decisions in his opponents. What other explanation is there for his opponents, who are otherwise competent professionals, just giving away 50 food in drops? I can't remember a single other game in the past 6 months where one Terran made as bad of a decision as multiple different bad decisions Leta and Fantasy have made in their WCG and OSL/MSL games with Flash....
I believe a certain b word fits all those characteristics.
Mmm... Yes, it DOES !!!
I really hope this summer we witness something incredible - winning WCG Korea, OSL, MSL, and PL at the same time. That should go into the History Books
On August 20 2010 21:23 darktreb wrote: I love Flash as much as anyone but he was GIVEN that game. There's no way he wins that without Leta's donation. It was way more than "just" 50 food - Leta was basically on the edge of securing more than half the map (more than half the gas) and sealing the deal.
While what you say is likely, given Flash's recent TvT games, you should avoid statements like "There's no way...", many have said them before you, and have been wrong
I know what you mean but I've watched every single TvT Flash has played for the past 18 months, including all of his greatest comebacks (dating all the way back to his comebacks against Hwasin and Leta before the FBH masterclass).
I can say with high confidence (fine, maybe not "no way") that he doesn't win without that, no matter how good he is. Leta was playing brilliantly up until that point (minus the Vulture harass right before which may have flustered him into the mistake). He was doing all the right things to extend and secure his advantage. Leta is one of the few Terrans who can play late game at Flash's level. When he's on, he plays a better late game TvT than anyone other than Flash and Skyhigh - yeah FBH, Hwasin, etc., are great Terrans but they were definitely A-class late game and not S-class, and here it makes all the difference.
By the way I don't know if anyone remembers but I'm pretty sure that's not the first gigantic Dropship donation Leta has made. Didn't he have a game against Fantasy on Carthage back in the day where he also gave away a ton of Dropships to swing a game?
And this is why Leta will never achieve anything outside of smashing B-level players in Proleague. I'm D- on Iccup and even I know that you scan before you drop that late in the game. Especially since Flash has a certain reputation when it comes to mass turrets.
Well played by Flash though, but not as impressive as the comebacks yesterday, given the gargantuan mistakes by Leta
Reminds me of people playing Federer and actually getting a lead. Suddenly they get hit by the enormity of the situation...they might beat Federer. Then they choke from nerves, make a bunch of mistakes, and Federer cleans up.
Same thing with Flash...I mean look at how rattled Leta was.
On August 20 2010 21:03 setzer wrote: Good job Leta, you blew your chance at an OSL title. Flash's most undeserved victory ever. It's pretty amazing how much luck he has.
Luck? You mean it was Flash who pulled ahead in early game with ridiculous mines? But yes, flash is so lucky that out of all terrans he's like the only one who knows how to play tvt. So lucky.
I guess you didn't watch the game because Leta was always up 15-25 supply and an extra base. And that was with bad macro.
I guess you didn't watch the game because Leta had THREE more geyser way before Flash was able to secure his corner double gas, not just an extra base. And whole this time his gas were below 600. He didn't have "bad macro". He had idiotic unit positioning and decisions, but never bad macro, except for the very end of the game when he didn't use minerals to build vultures.
The reason why he was able to get such insane lead to begin with was his extremely lucky mines which allowed him to destroy most of Flash's tanks and outmaneuver Flash.
On August 20 2010 21:27 KristianJS wrote: It's like they say: all great champions are lucky
Yeah, as someone who's been a Flash fan for a few years now, I've seen how much a small bit of luck can change everything. When Flash got eliminated early in individuals for 4 straight seasons, it was often just the tiniest bit of bad luck that snowballed into failure. He's been amazing this year but he's also definitely been very lucky, and this latest gift might have been the biggest bit of luck yet (I really believe it'll turn out to be the difference between making all 6 finals and not).
On August 20 2010 21:23 darktreb wrote: I love Flash as much as anyone but he was GIVEN that game. There's no way he wins that without Leta's donation. It was way more than "just" 50 food - Leta was basically on the edge of securing more than half the map (more than half the gas) and sealing the deal.
While what you say is likely, given Flash's recent TvT games, you should avoid statements like "There's no way...", many have said them before you, and have been wrong
By the way I don't know if anyone remembers but I'm pretty sure that's not the first gigantic Dropship donation Leta has made. Didn't he have a game against Fantasy on Carthage back in the day where he also gave away a ton of Dropships to swing a game?
I think it was in the OSL. Leta was slowly pulling ahead all game, but got his dropships sniped by Fantasy, but that was way less stupid then this.
Well tbh nobody can really deny that Flash got shit lucky when Leta flew 6 fully loaded dropships into 5turrets, turned and lost all. It was at that point the game turned and flash got a chance.
Sure he played great lategame and leta fucked up once more, but that was the really big moment when everything changed in the game.
On August 20 2010 21:36 purpose wrote: Well tbh nobody can really deny that Flash got shit lucky when Leta flew 6 fully loaded dropships into 5turrets, turned and lost all. It was at that point the game turned and flash got a chance.
Sure he played great lategame and leta fucked up once more, but that was the really big moment when everything changed in the game.
Well, having a few vults to defend his expansions could still have saved Leta's ass. Problem was that within 30 seconds he lost 2 bases worth of SCV to 5 vults and did the stupid drop
On August 20 2010 21:36 purpose wrote: Well tbh nobody can really deny that Flash got shit lucky when Leta flew 6 fully loaded dropships into 5turrets, turned and lost all. It was at that point the game turned and flash got a chance.
Sure he played great lategame and leta fucked up once more, but that was the really big moment when everything changed in the game.
making your opponent panic and start making mistakes has nothing to do with luck at any rate any rational person would agree that luck like jeebus does not exist.
On August 20 2010 21:03 setzer wrote: Good job Leta, you blew your chance at an OSL title. Flash's most undeserved victory ever. It's pretty amazing how much luck he has.
Luck? You mean it was Flash who pulled ahead in early game with ridiculous mines? But yes, flash is so lucky that out of all terrans he's like the only one who knows how to play tvt. So lucky.
I guess you didn't watch the game because Leta was always up 15-25 supply and an extra base. And that was with bad macro.
I guess you didn't watch the game because Leta had THREE more geyser way before Flash was able to secure his corner double gas, not just an extra base. And whole this time his gas were below 600. He didn't have "bad macro". He had idiotic unit positioning and decisions, but never bad macro, except for the very end of the game when he didn't use minerals to build vultures.
The reason why he was able to get such insane lead to begin with was his extremely lucky mines which allowed him to destroy most of Flash's tanks and outmaneuver Flash.
Way to contradict your previous statement. Floating 1500 minerals and 600-700 gas is bad macro, anyway you look at it. And I know you are a Flash fanboy but you should just face reality and admit Flash didn't really deserve the win.
Leta almost won, made either an unfortunate misclick or the dumbest mistake of his career, and allowed Flash back into the match.
However, even when Leta made the epic mistake, I'm pretty sure only a few terrans (Flash, maybe Fantasy) could have come back from that. Leta still owned a majority of the map, Flash was overmining at his main & naturals (thus they were almost mined out), and he still BARELY squeaked out the win at the end, thanks to some epic moves such as the ninja doom drop, sneaking through enemy lines and through ALL of leta's troops, sniping the BC's... etc. Insane. You have to give Flash props for his win, but it was definitely Leta who lost the game.
edit: I think a Terran with a stronger mentality could have still won in Leta's position. You could see in Leta's face, he never stopped thinking about that epic mistake. If you're a legit pro, you have to put all that behind you and still think you can win. Leta looked so unconfident after that fail... and understandably so.
- Leta played a risky early game that ended with him having a nice advantage - In the early midgame Leta extended that early game advantage with nice Micro and good decisions and put Flash into a position of no return in the midgame - Not even a B Teamer should lose a game vs. Flash with such an advantage - Leta threw that big advantage in 2 minutes with a WTF-drop and by not defending vs Vulture harass - even after that failed drop and the Vulture Harass Leta was still ahead - after the failed drop it seemed like Leta was AFK. He didnt do much for the rest of the game and especially nothing good. - Flash showed once again great fighting spirit - Flash's macro, his lategame and especially the drop in Leta's main were a class of his own
On August 20 2010 21:03 setzer wrote: Good job Leta, you blew your chance at an OSL title. Flash's most undeserved victory ever. It's pretty amazing how much luck he has.
Luck? You mean it was Flash who pulled ahead in early game with ridiculous mines? But yes, flash is so lucky that out of all terrans he's like the only one who knows how to play tvt. So lucky.
I guess you didn't watch the game because Leta was always up 15-25 supply and an extra base. And that was with bad macro.
I guess you didn't watch the game because Leta had THREE more geyser way before Flash was able to secure his corner double gas, not just an extra base. And whole this time his gas were below 600. He didn't have "bad macro". He had idiotic unit positioning and decisions, but never bad macro, except for the very end of the game when he didn't use minerals to build vultures.
The reason why he was able to get such insane lead to begin with was his extremely lucky mines which allowed him to destroy most of Flash's tanks and outmaneuver Flash.
Way to contradict your previous statement. Floating 1500 minerals and 600-700 gas is bad macro, anyway you look at it. And I know you are a Flash fanboy but you should just face reality and admit Flash didn't really deserve the win.
It's not he did not deserve it, I mean, did someone who makes such a mistake deserve to win the game ? But yeah, this had more to do with leta than with Flash.
On August 20 2010 21:03 setzer wrote: Good job Leta, you blew your chance at an OSL title. Flash's most undeserved victory ever. It's pretty amazing how much luck he has.
Luck? You mean it was Flash who pulled ahead in early game with ridiculous mines? But yes, flash is so lucky that out of all terrans he's like the only one who knows how to play tvt. So lucky.
I guess you didn't watch the game because Leta was always up 15-25 supply and an extra base. And that was with bad macro.
I guess you didn't watch the game because Leta had THREE more geyser way before Flash was able to secure his corner double gas, not just an extra base. And whole this time his gas were below 600. He didn't have "bad macro". He had idiotic unit positioning and decisions, but never bad macro, except for the very end of the game when he didn't use minerals to build vultures.
The reason why he was able to get such insane lead to begin with was his extremely lucky mines which allowed him to destroy most of Flash's tanks and outmaneuver Flash.
Way to contradict your previous statement. Floating 1500 minerals and 600-700 gas is bad macro, anyway you look at it. And I know you are a Flash fanboy but you should just face reality and admit Flash didn't really deserve the win.
you need to save to react to tech shifts ex your opponent going bcs if you keep spending you can suddenly find yourself having 150 supply worth of tanks and getting hammered by air with no option to counter
On August 20 2010 21:03 setzer wrote: Good job Leta, you blew your chance at an OSL title. Flash's most undeserved victory ever. It's pretty amazing how much luck he has.
Luck? You mean it was Flash who pulled ahead in early game with ridiculous mines? But yes, flash is so lucky that out of all terrans he's like the only one who knows how to play tvt. So lucky.
I guess you didn't watch the game because Leta was always up 15-25 supply and an extra base. And that was with bad macro.
I guess you didn't watch the game because Leta had THREE more geyser way before Flash was able to secure his corner double gas, not just an extra base. And whole this time his gas were below 600. He didn't have "bad macro". He had idiotic unit positioning and decisions, but never bad macro, except for the very end of the game when he didn't use minerals to build vultures.
The reason why he was able to get such insane lead to begin with was his extremely lucky mines which allowed him to destroy most of Flash's tanks and outmaneuver Flash.
Way to contradict your previous statement. Floating 1500 minerals and 600-700 gas is bad macro, anyway you look at it. And I know you are a Flash fanboy but you should just face reality and admit Flash didn't really deserve the win.
"Deserve" has nothing to do with it. Leta played great at first but then blundered terribly. Flash played worse at first but then played really well to stay in the game and provide Leta opportunities to screw up.
At the end of the day, if you screw up majorly after playing well, that's still your own fault and your own loss.
Leta was up 2 bases, 20 supply and map control. Too bad he couldn't finish Flash off. And even when Flash got bases up, he was ONLY equal with Leta. Once Leta let go of 9o'clock mineral expo, thats when he truly lost it.
Leta and Fantasy need to learn to win with advantage. Simple as that.
They both played much better and much more comfortably before they'd cemented a huge lead. Instead of preserving that lead into a victory, they kept trying to hammer it into a bigger lead with increasingly bone-headed aggression.
stop dissing flash "he didin't desevred the win, bla bla bla..." of course leta did major mistake that caused his lose. but flash did everything to comeback, it was flash who built those turrets that killed leta's dropships it was flash who layed those mines that took out some tanks in the end it was flash who dropped the troops when leta was about to make a BC army it was flash who patiently waited for his opponent to make a mistake
flash wasn't just sitting and drooling while leta threw the game
Its funny how people say that Flash has bad TvT! lol Some people are clueless.. He made the same mistake he did versus Fantasy. His early push was stopped and was on the back foot for almost the entire game.
Leta showed great preparation in securing a large earlygame lead against Flash. That in itself is not impressive, since every terran on the block has been doing it lately. Flash had the presence of mind in a lost position to still counter his opponent's most likely next move, and it paid off for him. Sure Leta threw the game away, but it's doubtful another Terran would have built those turrets in the first place. Flash is more "organic" than other terrans. He knows what's going on in the map, and he finds the best response, even if it's ugly or unconventional.
On August 20 2010 21:06 icystorage wrote: *smashes keyboard to wall*
fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu its a BoX right?
then there is still hope
No, there is no hope.
??? Am I missing something? All of the matches seen today were Bo3s. The return matches will be played on the 27th.
Anyway, I still don't understand why Leta didn't produce vultures when he had over 1,000 minerals in the bank. You could argue Flash didn't deserve it, but then neither did Leta.
On August 20 2010 21:25 FuRong wrote: This game is just another demonstration that Flash's TvT is not really that good. He still somehow pulls out wins because of his incredible skill level, but he has to come from behind soooooooo often which makes it really difficult. He was significantly behind in at least 3/5 games yesterday against Fanta, and this is a common theme throughout most if his recent TvTs. He ends up at a disadvantage early on, but then pulls level and wins anyway because he is Flash.
As the Chinese commentators pointed out yesterday, it's scary to think how Flash could dominate TvT if he had the power of Boxer and oov behind him like Fanta does...
History: Flash's TvT had the longest XvX win streak ever. I would say that only JvZ was a more dominate mirror. But perhaps this isn't what you mean, I don't think you could argue his TvT was almost as dominate as JvZ.
Current: Since his "minislump" ended Flash is 12-2 in TvT against Fantasy (7 games) Forgg (3 games) Hiya (1 game) and Leta (3 games). Yesterday he played Fanta 7 times, I would not say he was behind in either of the WCG games, He was significantly behind in games 1, 3, and 4 of the MSL series, of which he only pulled out game 1. His record if he lost this game vs Leta today and the one that he pulled out from Fanta in the MSL would be 10-4 (71.42%) against the top terrans. Further Flash has played 14 games in the past 2 weeks to be analyzed whereas the others have all played less than 4 (non-Flash) in the past month.
I would argue that you remember Flash's great come from behind TvTs more than the others, and this is why you feel he's playing from the hole so much. When it comes down to it 1/2 the time you're going to be a BO disadvantage, Flash generally wins these games. Flash on occasion also wins the games where he's behind.
On August 20 2010 21:55 p14c wrote: Its funny how people say that Flash has bad TvT! lol Some people are clueless.. He made the same mistake he did versus Fantasy. His early push was stopped and was on the back foot for almost the entire game.
if flash is bad tvt then what does that make leta nobody supernatural or otherwise pulled letas fingers and made his dships run into those turrets
Flash is fucking horrible and the only reason he ever wins a game is because his opponents are even more horrible. He just gets lucky every single game.
On August 20 2010 21:03 setzer wrote: Good job Leta, you blew your chance at an OSL title. Flash's most undeserved victory ever. It's pretty amazing how much luck he has.
Luck? You mean it was Flash who pulled ahead in early game with ridiculous mines? But yes, flash is so lucky that out of all terrans he's like the only one who knows how to play tvt. So lucky.
I guess you didn't watch the game because Leta was always up 15-25 supply and an extra base. And that was with bad macro.
I guess you didn't watch the game because Leta had THREE more geyser way before Flash was able to secure his corner double gas, not just an extra base. And whole this time his gas were below 600. He didn't have "bad macro". He had idiotic unit positioning and decisions, but never bad macro, except for the very end of the game when he didn't use minerals to build vultures.
The reason why he was able to get such insane lead to begin with was his extremely lucky mines which allowed him to destroy most of Flash's tanks and outmaneuver Flash.
Way to contradict your previous statement. Floating 1500 minerals and 600-700 gas is bad macro, anyway you look at it. And I know you are a Flash fanboy but you should just face reality and admit Flash didn't really deserve the win.
Minerals always float above 1k in TvT after early game, unless Terran is in the deep ass. Floating around 600 gas with 5 running geysers while pressuring opponent with constant aggression is a great macro
And you mean Leta deserved to win? The guy who instead of securing his immense lead tries to needlessly pressure his opponent and then horribly fails? This game showed that Flash knows better how to play TvT and doesn't fall apart even after fucked up early-game, and therefore he definitely deserved to win over Leta.
On August 20 2010 21:06 icystorage wrote: *smashes keyboard to wall*
fuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu its a BoX right?
then there is still hope
No, there is no hope.
??? Am I missing something? All of the matches seen today were Bo3s. The return matches will be played on the 27th.
Anyway, I still don't understand why Leta didn't produce vultures when he had over 1,000 minerals in the bank. You could argue Flash didn't deserve it, but then neither did Leta.
I think the lack of vults was because he wanted to save the mins so that he could produce gas units (since gas units >>>> vults) but the unfortunate thing was that he was at a huge mineral disadvantage the second Flash took the last good mineral field. He needed to produce as many units as he could to prevent Flash from taking that last expo.
On August 20 2010 21:55 p14c wrote: Its funny how people say that Flash has bad TvT! lol Some people are clueless.. He made the same mistake he did versus Fantasy. His early push was stopped and was on the back foot for almost the entire game.
if flash is bad tvt then what does that make leta nobody supernatural or otherwise pulled letas fingers and made his dships run into those turrets
Flash vT ELO rank is way higher than any other Terran. Not even Skyhigh is close to beat him. In this month is 12-2 vs top ranked Terrans. End of story! In fact he is the only player with 2300+ ELO vT!..So yeah! This is how bad it is!
On August 20 2010 21:03 setzer wrote: Good job Leta, you blew your chance at an OSL title. Flash's most undeserved victory ever. It's pretty amazing how much luck he has.
Luck? You mean it was Flash who pulled ahead in early game with ridiculous mines? But yes, flash is so lucky that out of all terrans he's like the only one who knows how to play tvt. So lucky.
I guess you didn't watch the game because Leta was always up 15-25 supply and an extra base. And that was with bad macro.
I guess you didn't watch the game because Leta had THREE more geyser way before Flash was able to secure his corner double gas, not just an extra base. And whole this time his gas were below 600. He didn't have "bad macro". He had idiotic unit positioning and decisions, but never bad macro, except for the very end of the game when he didn't use minerals to build vultures.
The reason why he was able to get such insane lead to begin with was his extremely lucky mines which allowed him to destroy most of Flash's tanks and outmaneuver Flash.
Way to contradict your previous statement. Floating 1500 minerals and 600-700 gas is bad macro, anyway you look at it. And I know you are a Flash fanboy but you should just face reality and admit Flash didn't really deserve the win.
Minerals always float above 1k in TvT after early game, unless Terran is in the deep ass. Floating around 600 gas with 5 running geysers while pressuring opponent with constant aggression is a great macro
And you mean Leta deserved to win? The guy who instead of securing his immense lead tries to needlessly pressure his opponent and then horribly fails? This game showed that Flash knows better how to play TvT and doesn't fall apart even after fucked up early-game, and therefore he definitely deserved to win over Leta.
I don't know what you mean by "needlessly pressure." It was that exact same pressure that kept Flash from ever securing a third gas. It was that exact same pressure that forced him to move units to defend his factories. This allowed Leta to fully secure his double gas expo and work on the 3 o clock expo. It was only when he decided to not scan and fly into into a ton of turrets (that Flash built because Leta had dropped there twice before) did Flash actually have a chance at playing. Flash did nothing up until that point that showed he was winning.
Flash does what he does best, and that is to get the W. I'm sure that is what only matters to him, but it was a pretty unsatisfactory way to get it. If you actually think Flash did more to get it instead of Leta losing it, then you are fooling yourself.
On August 20 2010 21:03 setzer wrote: Good job Leta, you blew your chance at an OSL title. Flash's most undeserved victory ever. It's pretty amazing how much luck he has.
Luck? You mean it was Flash who pulled ahead in early game with ridiculous mines? But yes, flash is so lucky that out of all terrans he's like the only one who knows how to play tvt. So lucky.
I guess you didn't watch the game because Leta was always up 15-25 supply and an extra base. And that was with bad macro.
I guess you didn't watch the game because Leta had THREE more geyser way before Flash was able to secure his corner double gas, not just an extra base. And whole this time his gas were below 600. He didn't have "bad macro". He had idiotic unit positioning and decisions, but never bad macro, except for the very end of the game when he didn't use minerals to build vultures.
The reason why he was able to get such insane lead to begin with was his extremely lucky mines which allowed him to destroy most of Flash's tanks and outmaneuver Flash.
Way to contradict your previous statement. Floating 1500 minerals and 600-700 gas is bad macro, anyway you look at it. And I know you are a Flash fanboy but you should just face reality and admit Flash didn't really deserve the win.
Minerals always float above 1k in TvT after early game, unless Terran is in the deep ass. Floating around 600 gas with 5 running geysers while pressuring opponent with constant aggression is a great macro
And you mean Leta deserved to win? The guy who instead of securing his immense lead tries to needlessly pressure his opponent and then horribly fails? This game showed that Flash knows better how to play TvT and doesn't fall apart even after fucked up early-game, and therefore he definitely deserved to win over Leta.
If you actually think Flash did more to get it instead of Leta losing it, then you are fooling yourself.
Man, these comments are seriously funny. "Leta is absolutely terrible", "Flash got lucky to play some1 this bad". LOL he's 64.52% in TvT morons, thats one of the best TvTs out there. Not once does any1 consider the fact that the opponent is Flash. Ever wonder why your D+ buddy on iCCup curb stomps you, but you see him making fail after fail when he plays some1 at C level? Its because the quality of the opponents matters a lot. Yes leta made quite a few mistakes but those mistakes are easier to make when your opponent is flash. Flash just outplayed him heavily in the endgame, showing better awareness and decision making. Saying he sucks and flash is lucky all the time is just absurb. Btw did any1 notice that Flash was ahead in supply for almost the entire endgame?
On August 20 2010 21:03 setzer wrote: Good job Leta, you blew your chance at an OSL title. Flash's most undeserved victory ever. It's pretty amazing how much luck he has.
Gotta be good to be lucky dude. Beating Leta (64.52 % TvT) 3 times in a row, ForGG (48.96% TvT but mainly cause of how bad it was before) 3 times in a row, and Fantasy (59.52%) 5-2, all within 2 weeks, is a little more than luck i'd say, yes?? Or you can keep being deluded
what do you do when your boy loses you get into that keyboard warrior mode and rationalize why he wasnt beaten by skill but by some mysterious force as if some deity denied what was deservedly won.
On August 20 2010 22:04 Holgerius wrote: Flash is fucking horrible and the only reason he ever wins a game is because his opponents are even more horrible. He just gets lucky every single game.
dude i totally agree. everyone thinks Flash is so good but I've never actually seen a game where he's won decisively, always some mistake and the other guy rolls over dead. i'm also a strong proponent of Terran imba, which is why Flash has been winning all the time, especially in games like today... there's a freaking 100% win rate for Terran. like wtf
Flash's early game TvT has always been one of the weakest one the major TvT players (Skyhigh, Fantasy, old FBH, Leta, etc). That's nothing new, you can probably take dozen games from this year alone showcasing him getting smashed in the early game.
What separates him from the other terrans is his mental strength. He's already completely unmatched in turtling and defense in general, its even worse since he doesn't really panic even under extreme pressure. His opponents always seem to buckle under the pressure and simply want to finish him off as quickly as possible to prevent him from consolidating his position. And its not like he's bad at attacking; he has some of the best unit positioning and late game large army movement of all Brood War players.
Leta's play reeked of impatience and his face showed his frustration ingame and after the game very clearly. He seemed to want to keep Flash from consolidating and pretty much kill him off as fast as possible, considering letting him turtle means you can pretty much lose even if you own every single resource site on the map since his late game play is levels above everyone that isn't Skyhigh (debatable, but I do think Skyhigh is a better TvT player if you need TvT snipes but series matches? he never gets far enough since he's godawful at TvZ and TvP).
I must see this game Sounds to me like people are upset that Leta made a mistake from a heavy lead. Give flash some credit though, when the positions were reversed he didn't fuck up, he almost never does.
What whould have happened to Leta had flash had letas position in the early midgame? He would have been totally crushed, better player won.
On August 20 2010 21:43 Fenrax wrote: Let's collect some facts:
- Leta played a risky early game that ended with him having a nice advantage - In the early midgame Leta extended that early game advantage with nice Micro and good decisions and put Flash into a position of no return in the midgame - Not even a B Teamer should lose a game vs. Flash with such an advantage - Leta threw that big advantage in 2 minutes with a WTF-drop and by not defending vs Vulture harass - even after that failed drop and the Vulture Harass Leta was still ahead - after the failed drop it seemed like Leta was AFK. He didnt do much for the rest of the game and especially nothing good. - Flash showed once again great fighting spirit - Flash's macro, his lategame and especially the drop in Leta's main were a class of his own
Anyone else lol'd at this? ^^ But I agree with u fenrax.
Action and Leta are two of the weakest players out of the eight. It makes sense that they get set up against the two strongest players.
I hope Jaedong, Stork, Zero and Flash make it out of their groups. Those semi-finals are going to be absolutely epic. They sound even more exciting than Flash vs. Fantasy and JD vs. Light.
Happy that Flash won. I have to say I didn't expect him to win given that he has been playing that many games recently and Leta had plenty of time and material to analyze Flash's play. And it seems he was on the verge of winning too but blew it big time.
Hope that Jaedong, Stork, Zero and Flash advance further.
Yeah after Leta watched Flash comeback in that game against Fantasy, I think Leta got fucking scared and wanted to end it asap, every second you give Flash to live, your chance to win decreases, unfortunately he rushed it too much and made a terrible mistake.
People complaining how Flash got lucky when he got himself from disadvantage and won game which was his opponents to lose were understandable the first couple of times it happened, annoying when it was like the fortieth similar game, and now are just embarrassing yourself.
This is Flash. He wins seemingly impossible games. Get used to it.
i feeling sad for Action , jaedong movement unmannered against Action , if u watch jaedong after win game going to room , you see Action :'(:'( my mafiaboy
- Continuing from yesterday you won another televised match ▲ Winning on both days, feels like playing firebathero. 火哥 = fbh.
- The situation was bad ▲ For my fans I have to fight till the end, this is a strong mindset. All of a sudden the table was turned. About 7 or 8 times I wanted to type GG.
- In early and mid game playing against strong attacks, do you feel dizzy. [晕] ▲ Very dizzy. I thought I was going to finish with first attack, but he defended, that was unfortunate. Leta hyung's attack was very strong.
- Leta's dropship was killed with ease. ▲ Even that I was still in a disadvantage. Leta hyung saved up a lot, and I didnt take 9 o' clock. No matter what, a win is a win.
- Sneaking in dropships was very cleaver ▲ 。It felt like going to a stalemate. I poured my scans and sent my dropships. Felt like good timing.
- Tommorrow there is going to be WCG's match. ▲ I need to go back and practice for tommorrow (laugh) Recently I only play TvT, my TvP feels like slipping a lot, can't go on like this, need to find my feel back.
- Kal facing you using carrier always loses. ▲ 。Kal hyung cant use carriers (laugh), same with Bisu hyung (laugh)
- Anything else to say? ▲ I will be prepared for tomorrow's match. Also my coach's mother's body is recovering well and left the hospital. I wanted to say that long time ago, now I am saying it. Through this, I think I need to treat my parents better.
individual leagues are funny right now; you root for whomever and you're excited that they're doing well but then they run into flash/jaedong and there's nothing you can do about it lol
On August 21 2010 04:08 Crunchums wrote: individual leagues are funny right now; you root for whomever and you're excited that they're doing well but then they run into flash/jaedong and there's nothing you can do about it lol
well against Jaedong you can do something... not much, but something at least, Flash, nothing T_T
I think part of it is the pressure, in these ridiculous games, the room for error is so small and playing against Flash or Jaedong is just really intimidating, your heart sinks even before you enter the booth. Thus is the power of a bonjwa, to crush players with reputation.
also, rewatching the game, the intense harass with the vulture before Leta's blunder was pretty sick too! it helped him claw back, from then on Leta looked flustered even though that was only about halfway through the game, you can tell he was just too shaken. Even when Flash was so disadvantaged in the game and against Fantasy, he remained calm and kept playing.
Another thing that was weird was that Leta had twice the amount of factories that flash had...
-? Your thoughts on winning the first match? ▲ Next week is place tour match(?) I can play with ease. Knowing that I have to play ZvZ in Ro8 I am confident, same with next week's games. (I think that's where they get out the normal stadium and play)
- you rarely play against Action. ▲ Playing with rookies I always hope to show the outstanding side of me. Playing with rookie with momentum has a burden as well. I won't fear next time, I hope to win in a overwhelming way.
- Tommorrow you have WCG and MSL match. ▲ MSL Semi is very important. Because I have to play today, I can't prepare well for tomorrow's match. I will have to prepare harder.
- Pick one between WCG and MSL? ▲ For me MSL is more important, but I want to do good in both. If I lose WCG I can will play for the 3rd place, that's why I can more relax about it.
- More focus on playing against Light in MSL semi? ▲ Yes, I am more focused on tomorrow's match.
- Flash got to the MSL final first. ▲ Now it will be the 3rd consecutive season meeting in the final if I advance as well. Actually I have a lot of burden. After watching Flash's match yesterday, felt that he is too good. In order to coordinate with him I must bring a splendid series as well. Tomorrow's match is very important.
- Anything else to say ▲ Hoped that everybody will very much anticipate tomorrow's competition. Next OSL 8 is place tour match, hope many fans will come.
We might have a bang-lee-ssang finals with free taking bisu's spot lol.
On August 21 2010 00:52 DarkMatter_ wrote: Action and Leta are two of the weakest players out of the eight. It makes sense that they get set up against the two strongest players.
I hope Jaedong, Stork, Zero and Flash make it out of their groups. Those semi-finals are going to be absolutely epic. They sound even more exciting than Flash vs. Fantasy and JD vs. Light.
Cause it is more epic.
On August 20 2010 21:03 setzer wrote: Good job Leta, you blew your chance at an OSL title. Flash's most undeserved victory ever. It's pretty amazing how much luck he has.
Hey~ I thought the same thing when Flash threw away his golden mouse in the last osl. Effort is the luckiest player I know, Flash literally threw away game 3, 4, and 5.
Anyway, I cringed so hard when Leta threw away his HUGE lead by flying all of his DSs into the turrets. How could you not scan before you drop, seriously??
He lost control the second he lost his fleet, and Flash almost instantly caught up and took the lead. You really can't make a mistake like that against any progamer, let alone Flash. However, it seems that top terran players have figured out a way to beat Flash by exploiting his weakness in early-/mid-games, exemplified by the series against Fantasy (esp. game 1, 3 and 4) and the most recent game against Leta.
On August 20 2010 21:43 Fenrax wrote: Let's collect some facts:
- Leta played a risky early game that ended with him having a nice advantage - In the early midgame Leta extended that early game advantage with nice Micro and good decisions and put Flash into a position of no return in the midgame - Not even a B Teamer should lose a game vs. Flash with such an advantage - Leta threw that big advantage in 2 minutes with a WTF-drop and by not defending vs Vulture harass - even after that failed drop and the Vulture Harass Leta was still ahead - after the failed drop it seemed like Leta was AFK. He didnt do much for the rest of the game and especially nothing good. - Flash showed once again great fighting spirit - Flash's macro, his lategame and especially the drop in Leta's main were a class of his own
Game was over when Leta lost his DS. He was mentally broken and never recovered despite dragging the game for 20 more minutes. There wasn't much Leta could do despite a minute advantage because the map was split, and he knew Flash had better late-game control and management.
On August 22 2010 07:13 Cambium wrote: VODs are up on wfbrood/youku.
Anyway, I cringed so hard when Leta threw away his HUGE lead by flying all of his DSs into the turrets. How could you not scan before you drop, seriously??
He lost control the second he lost his fleet, and Flash almost instantly caught up and took the lead. You really can't make a mistake like that against any progamer, let alone Flash. However, it seems that top terran players have figured out a way to beat Flash by exploiting his weakness in early-/mid-games, exemplified by the series against Fantasy (esp. game 1, 3 and 4) and the most recent game against Leta.
for me it seems like "top terran players have figured out a way to ALMOST beat Flash" ;-)
Nope. Each mistake made by Leta was provoked by Flash's actions. And the number of mistakes directly correlate with the player skill level. So what we have, is Leta mistakes and overall bad late-game from him (mostly due to absence of stamina it seems). Word "luck" can have deterministic meaning (i.e. Leta makes big mistakes on very very rare occasion which is obviously far from truth) or descriptive meaning (i.e. you dont expect Leta to lost). I think we have the second one. Then how we can speak of win/loss if any mistake which we dont expect from the player will be considered as pure luck? From your point of view even presence of Leta in R8 is luck, coz he has Bisu and Effort at group. So, from haters speech to common you sentence will be like: "I'm surprised with Leta's lost."
Word "luck" can have deterministic meaning (i.e. Leta makes big mistakes on very very rare occasion which is obviously far from truth) or descriptive meaning (i.e. you dont expect Leta to lost). I think we have the second one.
Ironically, the bolded part is "far from truth".
I very much meant it in the first sense. It was not a mistake you see very often. In fact, I cannot recall another recent incident involving a progamer making such a big blunder. Keeping in mind that Flash's Turrets were static, Leta committed the entire action by himself.
On August 22 2010 07:13 Cambium wrote: VODs are up on wfbrood/youku.
Anyway, I cringed so hard when Leta threw away his HUGE lead by flying all of his DSs into the turrets. How could you not scan before you drop, seriously??
He lost control the second he lost his fleet, and Flash almost instantly caught up and took the lead. You really can't make a mistake like that against any progamer, let alone Flash. However, it seems that top terran players have figured out a way to beat Flash by exploiting his weakness in early-/mid-games, exemplified by the series against Fantasy (esp. game 1, 3 and 4) and the most recent game against Leta.
for me it seems like "top terran players have figured out a way to ALMOST beat Flash" ;-)
On August 21 2010 00:52 DarkMatter_ wrote: Action and Leta are two of the weakest players out of the eight. It makes sense that they get set up against the two strongest players.
I hope Jaedong, Stork, Zero and Flash make it out of their groups. Those semi-finals are going to be absolutely epic. They sound even more exciting than Flash vs. Fantasy and JD vs. Light.
Meh, Action has top knotch ZvT. He definitely has one of the best ZvT skills around in the scene right now. It's a pity that he has to play his worst matchup against the person that is the best in said matchup.
Leta losing that wasn't a matter of luck, it was a matter of complacency. Flash let him drop there twice and Leta didn't do much damage (Flash probably has the single best crisis management in situations like that), but it was keeping the pressure on. You do something like that two times (and possibly scanned those times), and as the game has gone on you're fairly sure of your economic position. How likely is it for Flash to spend a ton of money on turrets when he hadn't before and the drops weren't doing that much damage?
Apparently likely enough. Maybe he just thought after the second time that Flash was relying solely on his crisis control there, and a bigger drops would be possibly enough to cripple flash and win the game. Turns out it wasn't.
You can't discount Flash's comeback against Leta at all. Just like how you can't discount JD beating Kal in game 1 of the MSL. Yes both Kal and Leta made a mistake, but its a testament to Flash and JD's play to exploit that mistake. Flash won against Leta because he completely exploited Leta's lategame mistakes. When you're playing Flash you can't EVER get complacent when Flash's lategame is so godly. Fantasy got complacent in game 1 of the MSL semis and Flash turned it around from the same deficit he had against Leta.
On August 22 2010 07:09 Yodo wrote: There is no such thing like a constant luck. It is measure of skills.
Game 1 against Fantasy was skill and determination, this game was purely luck.
Zero luck.
Flash was just playing against a Terran of clearly inferior mental fortitude.
LoLeta lost his nerves. Didn't scan Flash's base before dropships advanced. Decided on going ahead with drop then backing out at the last minute. The mark of a mentally shaky player.
Last 30 minutes was LoLeta not really doing anything and Flash clawing his way back and forth to victory. Players like Flash and Jaedong and Stork aren't mentally shaken by set backs in the game.
This is why I never had any faith in LoLeta for the longest time.
Is there any way to tell who will be potentially playing who in the semi-finals?? Is it possible that JD and Flash would play each other then instead of in separate semis and thus not in the final?
On August 24 2010 12:40 saltydeeds wrote: Is there any way to tell who will be potentially playing who in the semi-finals?? Is it possible that JD and Flash would play each other then instead of in separate semis and thus not in the final?
On August 24 2010 12:40 saltydeeds wrote: Is there any way to tell who will be potentially playing who in the semi-finals?? Is it possible that JD and Flash would play each other then instead of in separate semis and thus not in the final?
Seems good for JAedong. Provided Sea loses, which he probably will to storks PvT, then Flash is the only terran he can run into. If he avoids flash then its an automatic trip to the finals. The way he's playing now, theres no way he's gonna lose to Zero, Free, or stork. Sea is a bit more of a tossup cause its ZvT
On August 26 2010 23:59 SubtleArt wrote: Seems good for JAedong. Provided Sea loses, which he probably will to storks PvT, then Flash is the only terran he can run into. If he avoids flash then its an automatic trip to the finals. The way he's playing now, theres no way he's gonna lose to Zero, Free, or stork. Sea is a bit more of a tossup cause its ZvT
Jaedong's record v stork is 9 - 10 altogether, 2-5 in past two years, and 0-3 is last year.
+ 10-02-20 Shinhan 2010 Winners .. Match Point Loss + 09-08-29 WCG2009 Korea Heartbreak Ridge Loss + 09-08-29 WCG2009 Korea Return of the King Loss + 09-07-04 Shinhan08-09 Proleague Destination Loss + 09-03-13 Batoo OSL Tears of the Moon Win + 09-03-13 Batoo OSL Sin Chupung-Ryeong Win + 09-03-06 Batoo OSL Return of the King Loss + 08-08-17 WCG2008 Korea Othello Win + 08-08-17 WCG2008 Korea Andromeda Win + 07-12-22 EVER2007 OSL Blue Storm Win + 07-12-22 EVER2007 OSL Fantasy II Win + 07-12-22 EVER2007 OSL Katrina Win + 07-12-22 EVER2007 OSL Persona Loss + 07-11-02 EVER2007 OSL Persona Loss + 07-08-12 Seoul e-Sports Festival Sin Peaks of Baekdu Win + 07-08-12 Seoul e-Sports Festival Python Win + 07-08-12 Seoul e-Sports Festival Tau Cross Loss + 07-04-28 Shinhan07 Proleague R1 Python Loss + 07-01-27 4th CJ Superfight Sin Peaks of Baekdu Loss
On August 26 2010 23:59 SubtleArt wrote: Seems good for JAedong. Provided Sea loses, which he probably will to storks PvT, then Flash is the only terran he can run into. If he avoids flash then its an automatic trip to the finals. The way he's playing now, theres no way he's gonna lose to Zero, Free, or stork. Sea is a bit more of a tossup cause its ZvT
Jaedong's record v stork is 9 - 10 altogether, 2-5 in past two years, and 0-3 is last year.
+ 10-02-20 Shinhan 2010 Winners .. Match Point Loss + 09-08-29 WCG2009 Korea Heartbreak Ridge Loss + 09-08-29 WCG2009 Korea Return of the King Loss + 09-07-04 Shinhan08-09 Proleague Destination Loss + 09-03-13 Batoo OSL Tears of the Moon Win + 09-03-13 Batoo OSL Sin Chupung-Ryeong Win + 09-03-06 Batoo OSL Return of the King Loss + 08-08-17 WCG2008 Korea Othello Win + 08-08-17 WCG2008 Korea Andromeda Win + 07-12-22 EVER2007 OSL Blue Storm Win + 07-12-22 EVER2007 OSL Fantasy II Win + 07-12-22 EVER2007 OSL Katrina Win + 07-12-22 EVER2007 OSL Persona Loss + 07-11-02 EVER2007 OSL Persona Loss + 07-08-12 Seoul e-Sports Festival Sin Peaks of Baekdu Win + 07-08-12 Seoul e-Sports Festival Python Win + 07-08-12 Seoul e-Sports Festival Tau Cross Loss + 07-04-28 Shinhan07 Proleague R1 Python Loss + 07-01-27 4th CJ Superfight Sin Peaks of Baekdu Loss
dont forget that in the WCG grand finals he actually beat stork though 2-1.
On August 26 2010 23:59 SubtleArt wrote: Seems good for JAedong. Provided Sea loses, which he probably will to storks PvT, then Flash is the only terran he can run into. If he avoids flash then its an automatic trip to the finals. The way he's playing now, theres no way he's gonna lose to Zero, Free, or stork. Sea is a bit more of a tossup cause its ZvT
Jaedong's record v stork is 9 - 10 altogether, 2-5 in past two years, and 0-3 is last year.
+ 10-02-20 Shinhan 2010 Winners .. Match Point Loss + 09-08-29 WCG2009 Korea Heartbreak Ridge Loss + 09-08-29 WCG2009 Korea Return of the King Loss + 09-07-04 Shinhan08-09 Proleague Destination Loss + 09-03-13 Batoo OSL Tears of the Moon Win + 09-03-13 Batoo OSL Sin Chupung-Ryeong Win + 09-03-06 Batoo OSL Return of the King Loss + 08-08-17 WCG2008 Korea Othello Win + 08-08-17 WCG2008 Korea Andromeda Win + 07-12-22 EVER2007 OSL Blue Storm Win + 07-12-22 EVER2007 OSL Fantasy II Win + 07-12-22 EVER2007 OSL Katrina Win + 07-12-22 EVER2007 OSL Persona Loss + 07-11-02 EVER2007 OSL Persona Loss + 07-08-12 Seoul e-Sports Festival Sin Peaks of Baekdu Win + 07-08-12 Seoul e-Sports Festival Python Win + 07-08-12 Seoul e-Sports Festival Tau Cross Loss + 07-04-28 Shinhan07 Proleague R1 Python Loss + 07-01-27 4th CJ Superfight Sin Peaks of Baekdu Loss
dont forget that in the WCG grand finals he actually beat stork though 2-1.
But in the 2008 Grand Finals, Stork beat Jaedong 2-1 in the quarterfinals.
Regardless, Jaedong is the favorite, if only because his mental game is a lot stronger than Stork's.
On August 26 2010 23:59 SubtleArt wrote: Seems good for JAedong. Provided Sea loses, which he probably will to storks PvT, then Flash is the only terran he can run into. If he avoids flash then its an automatic trip to the finals. The way he's playing now, theres no way he's gonna lose to Zero, Free, or stork. Sea is a bit more of a tossup cause its ZvT
Jaedong's record v stork is 9 - 10 altogether, 2-5 in past two years, and 0-3 is last year.
+ 10-02-20 Shinhan 2010 Winners .. Match Point Loss + 09-08-29 WCG2009 Korea Heartbreak Ridge Loss + 09-08-29 WCG2009 Korea Return of the King Loss + 09-07-04 Shinhan08-09 Proleague Destination Loss + 09-03-13 Batoo OSL Tears of the Moon Win + 09-03-13 Batoo OSL Sin Chupung-Ryeong Win + 09-03-06 Batoo OSL Return of the King Loss + 08-08-17 WCG2008 Korea Othello Win + 08-08-17 WCG2008 Korea Andromeda Win + 07-12-22 EVER2007 OSL Blue Storm Win + 07-12-22 EVER2007 OSL Fantasy II Win + 07-12-22 EVER2007 OSL Katrina Win + 07-12-22 EVER2007 OSL Persona Loss + 07-11-02 EVER2007 OSL Persona Loss + 07-08-12 Seoul e-Sports Festival Sin Peaks of Baekdu Win + 07-08-12 Seoul e-Sports Festival Python Win + 07-08-12 Seoul e-Sports Festival Tau Cross Loss + 07-04-28 Shinhan07 Proleague R1 Python Loss + 07-01-27 4th CJ Superfight Sin Peaks of Baekdu Loss
Until like a year ago ZvP was Jaedong's worst matchup, now its his best. Stork's PvZ, however. remains as shaky as before. On top of that Jaedong has elevated his game to a new level the past few months, while Stork has been fading. Advantage jaedong by far
On August 26 2010 23:59 SubtleArt wrote: Seems good for JAedong. Provided Sea loses, which he probably will to storks PvT, then Flash is the only terran he can run into. If he avoids flash then its an automatic trip to the finals. The way he's playing now, theres no way he's gonna lose to Zero, Free, or stork. Sea is a bit more of a tossup cause its ZvT
Jaedong's record v stork is 9 - 10 altogether, 2-5 in past two years, and 0-3 is last year.
+ 10-02-20 Shinhan 2010 Winners .. Match Point Loss + 09-08-29 WCG2009 Korea Heartbreak Ridge Loss + 09-08-29 WCG2009 Korea Return of the King Loss + 09-07-04 Shinhan08-09 Proleague Destination Loss + 09-03-13 Batoo OSL Tears of the Moon Win + 09-03-13 Batoo OSL Sin Chupung-Ryeong Win + 09-03-06 Batoo OSL Return of the King Loss + 08-08-17 WCG2008 Korea Othello Win + 08-08-17 WCG2008 Korea Andromeda Win + 07-12-22 EVER2007 OSL Blue Storm Win + 07-12-22 EVER2007 OSL Fantasy II Win + 07-12-22 EVER2007 OSL Katrina Win + 07-12-22 EVER2007 OSL Persona Loss + 07-11-02 EVER2007 OSL Persona Loss + 07-08-12 Seoul e-Sports Festival Sin Peaks of Baekdu Win + 07-08-12 Seoul e-Sports Festival Python Win + 07-08-12 Seoul e-Sports Festival Tau Cross Loss + 07-04-28 Shinhan07 Proleague R1 Python Loss + 07-01-27 4th CJ Superfight Sin Peaks of Baekdu Loss
Fair point, but in games that really mattered the score is 10-7 in Jaedong's favor (adding in WCGs; discounting WCG Korea finals) and if you count match results instead of individual game results, that becomes 4-1 for Jaedong (Stork won WCG 2008). You can't discount the tendency of Jaedong to step up when a lot is on the line, or of Stork to step down.
On August 26 2010 23:59 SubtleArt wrote: Seems good for JAedong. Provided Sea loses, which he probably will to storks PvT, then Flash is the only terran he can run into. If he avoids flash then its an automatic trip to the finals. The way he's playing now, theres no way he's gonna lose to Zero, Free, or stork. Sea is a bit more of a tossup cause its ZvT
Jaedong's record v stork is 9 - 10 altogether, 2-5 in past two years, and 0-3 is last year.
+ 10-02-20 Shinhan 2010 Winners .. Match Point Loss + 09-08-29 WCG2009 Korea Heartbreak Ridge Loss + 09-08-29 WCG2009 Korea Return of the King Loss + 09-07-04 Shinhan08-09 Proleague Destination Loss + 09-03-13 Batoo OSL Tears of the Moon Win + 09-03-13 Batoo OSL Sin Chupung-Ryeong Win + 09-03-06 Batoo OSL Return of the King Loss + 08-08-17 WCG2008 Korea Othello Win + 08-08-17 WCG2008 Korea Andromeda Win + 07-12-22 EVER2007 OSL Blue Storm Win + 07-12-22 EVER2007 OSL Fantasy II Win + 07-12-22 EVER2007 OSL Katrina Win + 07-12-22 EVER2007 OSL Persona Loss + 07-11-02 EVER2007 OSL Persona Loss + 07-08-12 Seoul e-Sports Festival Sin Peaks of Baekdu Win + 07-08-12 Seoul e-Sports Festival Python Win + 07-08-12 Seoul e-Sports Festival Tau Cross Loss + 07-04-28 Shinhan07 Proleague R1 Python Loss + 07-01-27 4th CJ Superfight Sin Peaks of Baekdu Loss
Honestly, we are not far off from labeling JD's ZvP JvP, because its becoming as dominant as his ZvZ. I've been an advocate that Stork is the greatest threat to another JvF finals. He and JD are regular training partners, they are friends, and Stork is one of the few players who has a decent record against the best players playing right now. However, JD is the Bo5 guru, and his current play is unreal. Stork is not a player with superior mechanics, and wins off careful preparation and intelligent play, but at some point (especially in a Bo5) it will come down to mechanics and no protoss currently matches JD's ZvP game sense and mechanics. Sure JD may be 0-3 against Stork in the last year, he's also 26-5 in the last year in ZvP's. What's more, if Stork is his opponent, JD has a free schedule to prepare since the MSL finals are tomorrow. Major favor to JD if he meets Stork, but Stork remains a greater threat to JD than Sea i believe.
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/SilverskY/KoreanAirOSLS2.jpg)
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![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/211.jpg)
Action < Eye of the Storm > ![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/59.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/108.jpg)
Stork < Flight-Dreamliner > 
Sea![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/175.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/174.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/424.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/images/players/185.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Lryel.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KicGF.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgnews.naver.com/image/236/2010/08/20/1282277215_1.jpg)
