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On May 24 2010 07:03 lone_hydra wrote:
Effort flew his muta group over marines in game 2 and lost 3 or 4 which pretty much cost the game. Mistakes like that is completely unacceptable for players of such calibers in such a situation. He lost the game right there and then.
You think those muta cost him the game? Flash seemed to me like he had an advantage by that point before the muta were lost. I mean, I just took a look back at the game: just before Effort flew his muta over the army, flash was ahead 91 food to 69 food, which isn't something to sneeze at.
(It was a big mistake, but it seemed to me that Flash was doing well enough without that blunder.)
I give props to Effort in game 4 for expecting cheese and expecting a mech drop. Epic star sense. But other than that, nothing to special. Scouted BBS cheese gets rolled. Short game, no real action and suspense.
What about the ling/lurk pincer toward the end, just to the south of Flash's ramp? I thought that was quite baller. I'm a Flash fan and that was one of my favorite moments in the series.
On May 24 2010 07:39 Hot_Bid wrote:
If you want to blame someone for a short or "bad" game 5, blame Flash.
Most Flash fans do seem to be blaming him for game 5.
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On May 24 2010 07:23 lone_hydra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 07:20 InTheFade wrote:On May 24 2010 01:21 G5 wrote:On May 24 2010 01:14 purpose wrote:On May 24 2010 01:12 G5 wrote:
Flash is a class above EffOrt
EffOrt won every game with cheese (except Game 4 which was retarded).
When EffOrt was put against the wall and he was feeling nervous he relied on cheese.
When Flash was put into game 5, he manned up and went 14 CC like a fucking BALLER
i unno man.... I honestly think the better man lost today. God this series games 3-5 made me mad as fuck. To be 0-2 down in a OSL final vs the player who has dominated SC the last year and turn it into 3-2 victory and you say the better player lost. Flash overall is a better player then Effort, but in this final effort played better and smarter. And to say he cheesed is just sore loser mentality tbh. I could fucking do what EffOrt did in those games and I don't even play that match up. I just want you to know that this was the single dumbest thing I've ever read. Mechanically wise, yeah, he probably could copy Effort's play in game 3 and 4 if he was a C level player. I doubt it for game 5, lots of ling micro multitasking going on there.
Isn't G5 a top protoss player? I bet he could do it if he practiced enough :p
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and now, a poem:
flash fans
terran fanboys
i jizz on your tear stained cheeks
effort and i, we laugh forever
on the way to jaedong's house
to see his golden mouse
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On May 24 2010 05:39 purpose wrote:
Ok so this is how starcraft should work according to flash fanboys.
The best player should win....always. So you actually dont even have to play the games. If Flash play effort in a final, its obvious that flash is better, should win easy so no need to play it, just have a ceremony were you give flash the prize.
But that would be boring, so instead we do it like in Wrestling. We kinda decide before the game, that you start of like this, I try a lingrunby but you block amazing and then counter with bla bla bla and I end the game with a 2 shuttle drop with tanks and you GG when I take out the Hatchery.
The point to this horrible post of course is that if the best player on paper always won the game, nobody would like watching any sport at all.
You have to play for it, and your never better then your last game....case closed!
No. What you are saying makes no sense at all. Suppose Flash makes a couple mistakes and Effort plays amazing starcraft (think of their proleague match) and wins the series. That would have been fine. The way Effort won Game 3 was fine and had the rest of the games gone like that I wouldn't be complaining. Seriously, this isn't that hard: If all you want is for the player you're rooting for to win, then you might like this series. If you want to see the best StarCraft you can, this wasn't it at all.
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Effort played well. Flash played like a retard game 3-5... sums it up pretty well.
Oh yeah and Effort in game #1 part 2 (because it was a remake haha) was pretty bad on Effort's part. He suicided his drones/and hydralisks to tanks
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On May 24 2010 08:59 Silentness wrote:
Effort played well. Flash played like a retard game 3-5... sums it up pretty well.
Oh yeah and Effort in game #1 part 2 (because it was a remake haha) was pretty bad on Effort's part. He suicided his drones/and hydralisks to tanks
Flash played well. Effort played like a retard games 1-2. After toying around for a while, Effort decided he'd 3-0 flash and win the OSL so he can get home for dinner with his family.
Oh yea and Flash in games 4 was pretty bad on Flash's part. He decided to BBS to not have to play straight up with Effort.
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Braavos36388 Posts
On May 24 2010 08:46 malathion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 05:39 purpose wrote:
Ok so this is how starcraft should work according to flash fanboys.
The best player should win....always. So you actually dont even have to play the games. If Flash play effort in a final, its obvious that flash is better, should win easy so no need to play it, just have a ceremony were you give flash the prize.
But that would be boring, so instead we do it like in Wrestling. We kinda decide before the game, that you start of like this, I try a lingrunby but you block amazing and then counter with bla bla bla and I end the game with a 2 shuttle drop with tanks and you GG when I take out the Hatchery.
The point to this horrible post of course is that if the best player on paper always won the game, nobody would like watching any sport at all.
You have to play for it, and your never better then your last game....case closed! No. What you are saying makes no sense at all. Suppose Flash makes a couple mistakes and Effort plays amazing starcraft (think of their proleague match) and wins the series. That would have been fine. The way Effort won Game 3 was fine and had the rest of the games gone like that I wouldn't be complaining. Seriously, this isn't that hard: If all you want is for the player you're rooting for to win, then you might like this series. If you want to see the best StarCraft you can, this wasn't it at all.
When you're talking about players the caliber of Flash and Jaedong, they pretty much cannot "play well" and still lose. Flash making "a couple mistakes" and still playing well is impossible. For example, can you even think of a game where you'd say "Flash played up to his potential, but he still lost." I can think of maybe one against Bisu, and the power outage game.
This is because of fans' perception of Flash (not just Flash fans, but everyone). He plays so perfect so many times that you just remember that and label it his "standard." Thus, most fans associate Flash playing perfect and winning as his "normal play" and when he doesn't reach that, there's suddenly something wrong with him. This is not a reasonable stance to have.
Its compounded even more by what happened in this OSL Final. As Idra said, many decisions made in games 3, 4, and 5 were calculated risks by Flash. Especially game 5. You can't just tack on "if Flash survives early game after 14cc and has an eco advantage midgame" as part of Flash's "standard play" lol.
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Flash simply did not play solid and Effort did. This is why we actually have players PLAY the games in the finals, rather than just look at statistics and decide a winner. For all the Flash fans that are flaming Effort for winning, get over it. It's not "cheese" to take advantage of someone going for a greedy build. Flash took risks in those final 3 games and he miscalculated. If it was Jaedong doing what Effort did, people would be talking about how brilliant he was. I think a lot of the opinions here are skewed because so many people were under the impression that Effort was a second or third-rate player. Let's not forget that it wasn't too long ago that Effort was actually considered one of the stronger players in the game... Despite his recent slump, people should have known that he was certainly capable of winning here...
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Rewatching the 5th game, it seemed that Flash actually went for a 12-13 command center. lol
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Here is the way I see it.
Flash lost game 3 because he got too comfortable with the fact that he has already won two games and moved his marines out at a non-standard timing to catch lings that are in fact baits. Effort banked on that, exploited and won it.
Apparently, it is Flash's style to cheese when he's 2-1. Effort in fact managed to predict that according to his interview. He sent an overlord to the middle of the map, and successfully scouted it. Of course, there is a great deal of luck involved here. But nonetheless, Effort won the mind game. All that's left is for Effort not the screw up to win the set.
In game 5, Flash, for an unknown reason, went 14cc. Here is how it goes. It is the greediest build in the game. If he gets away with it, it's auto-win. Effort had a narrow timing window to punish it and he took it with lings all in. Great decision by Effort.
I think people are simply expecting too much out of Flash. The only game in which I truly question Flash's decision making was game 5. Going 14cc on a two player map against an opponent of the highest caliber with the Golden Mouse on the line was the literally threading on thin ice.
Take your life in your own hands and what happens? A terrible thing: no one is to blame.
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On May 24 2010 09:13 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 08:46 malathion wrote:On May 24 2010 05:39 purpose wrote:
Ok so this is how starcraft should work according to flash fanboys.
The best player should win....always. So you actually dont even have to play the games. If Flash play effort in a final, its obvious that flash is better, should win easy so no need to play it, just have a ceremony were you give flash the prize.
But that would be boring, so instead we do it like in Wrestling. We kinda decide before the game, that you start of like this, I try a lingrunby but you block amazing and then counter with bla bla bla and I end the game with a 2 shuttle drop with tanks and you GG when I take out the Hatchery.
The point to this horrible post of course is that if the best player on paper always won the game, nobody would like watching any sport at all.
You have to play for it, and your never better then your last game....case closed! No. What you are saying makes no sense at all. Suppose Flash makes a couple mistakes and Effort plays amazing starcraft (think of their proleague match) and wins the series. That would have been fine. The way Effort won Game 3 was fine and had the rest of the games gone like that I wouldn't be complaining. Seriously, this isn't that hard: If all you want is for the player you're rooting for to win, then you might like this series. If you want to see the best StarCraft you can, this wasn't it at all. When you're talking about players the caliber of Flash and Jaedong, they pretty much cannot "play well" and still lose. Flash making "a couple mistakes" and still playing well is impossible. For example, can you even think of a game where you'd say "Flash played up to his potential, but he still lost." I can think of maybe one against Bisu, and the power outage game. This is because of fans' perception of Flash (not just Flash fans, but everyone). He plays so perfect so many times that you just remember that and label it his "standard." Thus, most fans associate Flash playing perfect and winning as his "normal play" and when he doesn't reach that, there's suddenly something wrong with him. This is not a reasonable stance to have. Its compounded even more by what happened in this OSL Final. As Idra said, many decisions made in games 3, 4, and 5 were calculated risks by Flash. Especially game 5. You can't just tack on "if Flash survives early game after 14cc and has an eco advantage midgame" as part of Flash's "standard play" lol.
This is a fair point, but I think it really plays into what I'm saying. The fact that Flash ordinarily plays such amazing starcraft is what set the bar high for this match. He didn't deliver this time and that's why the match was disappointing. That's all. Again, you don't have to be a Flash fanboy to be disappointed by this. In fact, I think the only way you could have thought this series was satisfying is if you don't follow starcraft and hence don't know what to expect from Flash, or if you're an Effort fanboy and all you wanted was to see your guy win.
Edit: On the subject of calculated risks, I don't think I'm the only person who expected to see 1rax cc in every game. That Flash took risks in the opening instead of playing to his strengths was bad metagaming by him, and it's disappointing to me since it's still likely that Flash could have won either of the last 2 games with 1rax cc.
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On May 24 2010 10:10 dukethegold wrote:
Flash lost game 3 because he got too comfortable with the fact that he has already won two games and moved his marines out at a non-standard timing to catch lings that are in fact baits. Effort banked on that, exploited and won it.
Pretty sure Flash moved out to put pressure on, in order to force effort into building sunks. He didn't realise effort was 2 hatching until he lost those marines.
That game was more effort outsmarting flash in build orders. Because who goes 2 hatch mutas with one hatch in the middle of nowhere.
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On May 24 2010 11:15 Highways wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 10:10 dukethegold wrote:
Flash lost game 3 because he got too comfortable with the fact that he has already won two games and moved his marines out at a non-standard timing to catch lings that are in fact baits. Effort banked on that, exploited and won it.
Pretty sure Flash moved out to put pressure on, in order to force effort into building sunks. He didn't realise effort was 2 hatching until he lost those marines. That game was more effort outsmarting flash in build orders. Because who goes 2 hatch mutas with one hatch in the middle of nowhere.
Truth to that.
But Flash did move his marines out to chase the lings without medic support.
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On May 24 2010 12:27 dukethegold wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 11:15 Highways wrote:On May 24 2010 10:10 dukethegold wrote:
Flash lost game 3 because he got too comfortable with the fact that he has already won two games and moved his marines out at a non-standard timing to catch lings that are in fact baits. Effort banked on that, exploited and won it.
Pretty sure Flash moved out to put pressure on, in order to force effort into building sunks. He didn't realise effort was 2 hatching until he lost those marines. That game was more effort outsmarting flash in build orders. Because who goes 2 hatch mutas with one hatch in the middle of nowhere. Truth to that. But Flash did move his marines out to chase the lings without medic support.
Actually I think Flash thought that Effort was doing some 3 Hatch play on Effort's part and after he killed those Zerglings, he expected Effort to keep pumping drones instead of Zerglings, Effort hid his Lings too well and crushed Flash.
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About the stop lurker scan in game 2 I think it was: he didn't deduce the lurkers' position based on muta movement or by feel. For those of you who watched it live, they showed the replay before the next game which showed that he had 1 more scan before that scan (probably to watch the muta movement), which caught the lurkers in its outskirts.
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To be honest, I think Flash didn't play his best in all 5 games, even games 1 and 2.
Even when Flash played Effort in the proleague earlier before this and lost, I still felt that was the "Flash" playing.
I don't know, this just didn't feel right. Effort played great though, so kudos to him for his victory. He earned it.
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On May 24 2010 11:09 malathion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 09:13 Hot_Bid wrote:On May 24 2010 08:46 malathion wrote:On May 24 2010 05:39 purpose wrote:
Ok so this is how starcraft should work according to flash fanboys.
The best player should win....always. So you actually dont even have to play the games. If Flash play effort in a final, its obvious that flash is better, should win easy so no need to play it, just have a ceremony were you give flash the prize.
But that would be boring, so instead we do it like in Wrestling. We kinda decide before the game, that you start of like this, I try a lingrunby but you block amazing and then counter with bla bla bla and I end the game with a 2 shuttle drop with tanks and you GG when I take out the Hatchery.
The point to this horrible post of course is that if the best player on paper always won the game, nobody would like watching any sport at all.
You have to play for it, and your never better then your last game....case closed! No. What you are saying makes no sense at all. Suppose Flash makes a couple mistakes and Effort plays amazing starcraft (think of their proleague match) and wins the series. That would have been fine. The way Effort won Game 3 was fine and had the rest of the games gone like that I wouldn't be complaining. Seriously, this isn't that hard: If all you want is for the player you're rooting for to win, then you might like this series. If you want to see the best StarCraft you can, this wasn't it at all. When you're talking about players the caliber of Flash and Jaedong, they pretty much cannot "play well" and still lose. Flash making "a couple mistakes" and still playing well is impossible. For example, can you even think of a game where you'd say "Flash played up to his potential, but he still lost." I can think of maybe one against Bisu, and the power outage game. This is because of fans' perception of Flash (not just Flash fans, but everyone). He plays so perfect so many times that you just remember that and label it his "standard." Thus, most fans associate Flash playing perfect and winning as his "normal play" and when he doesn't reach that, there's suddenly something wrong with him. This is not a reasonable stance to have. Its compounded even more by what happened in this OSL Final. As Idra said, many decisions made in games 3, 4, and 5 were calculated risks by Flash. Especially game 5. You can't just tack on "if Flash survives early game after 14cc and has an eco advantage midgame" as part of Flash's "standard play" lol. This is a fair point, but I think it really plays into what I'm saying. The fact that Flash ordinarily plays such amazing starcraft is what set the bar high for this match. He didn't deliver this time and that's why the match was disappointing. That's all. Again, you don't have to be a Flash fanboy to be disappointed by this. In fact, I think the only way you could have thought this series was satisfying is if you don't follow starcraft and hence don't know what to expect from Flash, or if you're an Effort fanboy and all you wanted was to see your guy win. Edit: On the subject of calculated risks, I don't think I'm the only person who expected to see 1rax cc in every game. That Flash took risks in the opening instead of playing to his strengths was bad metagaming by him, and it's disappointing to me since it's still likely that Flash could have won either of the last 2 games with 1rax cc.
I'm with you on this. After seeing their somewhat decent match in proleague where Effort managed to hold on to his early advantage into a win, after seeing the nail-biting Flash vs. Action game that really came down to the wire... I think we have a certain right to be disappointed by this series. Especially watching live, seeing the amazing intro transition into the massive delays, and ultimately staying awake all night only to witness anticlimactic games that would remind someone of a series between go.go and Kwanro.
I think that earlier in the thread, you said that you were even less convinced by Effort's play because of this series, and I can see where you're coming from. Effort did what he had to to win, and win he did. He had strong mental fortitude after being down two games, and he had good preparation and even a little bit of luck. But let's not delude ourselves into thinking that he won the series on the back of his great late-game management or anything here. When a game did go that far, he squandered a huge lead and was crushed. And Flash, of course, squandered an even bigger lead by losing the series trying to pull stupid crap.
Stripping away any allegiances and speaking only as a spectator, the games were weak, uninspiring, and definitely unfulfilling. Ugh.
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On May 24 2010 01:21 G5 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 01:14 purpose wrote:On May 24 2010 01:12 G5 wrote:
Flash is a class above EffOrt
EffOrt won every game with cheese (except Game 4 which was retarded).
When EffOrt was put against the wall and he was feeling nervous he relied on cheese.
When Flash was put into game 5, he manned up and went 14 CC like a fucking BALLER
i unno man.... I honestly think the better man lost today. God this series games 3-5 made me mad as fuck. To be 0-2 down in a OSL final vs the player who has dominated SC the last year and turn it into 3-2 victory and you say the better player lost. Flash overall is a better player then Effort, but in this final effort played better and smarter. And to say he cheesed is just sore loser mentality tbh. he won off mass zerglings game 3 / 5 and a retard build from flash game 4 I could fucking do what EffOrt did in those games and I don't even play that match up. Now Game 1 and 2... Game 2 especially. Take game 2 and look at what position Flash was in and how he came back from it, spreading the map, dropping every where, multi-tasking the shit out of effort. There is no doubt in my mind the better player lost today and it's because sometimes all-in works and EffOrt decided to bank on that after he was down 0-2 because he was nervous and Flash already proved he would rape him in a skillful game. You can say i have a sore loser mentality but you have a republican close minded mentality who doesn't look at the games, you just looks at the score and thats good enough for you. Maybe you should get some insight into the games before you open your mouth.
Fanboy blather at its worst.
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On May 24 2010 08:46 malathion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 24 2010 05:39 purpose wrote:
Ok so this is how starcraft should work according to flash fanboys.
The best player should win....always. So you actually dont even have to play the games. If Flash play effort in a final, its obvious that flash is better, should win easy so no need to play it, just have a ceremony were you give flash the prize.
But that would be boring, so instead we do it like in Wrestling. We kinda decide before the game, that you start of like this, I try a lingrunby but you block amazing and then counter with bla bla bla and I end the game with a 2 shuttle drop with tanks and you GG when I take out the Hatchery.
The point to this horrible post of course is that if the best player on paper always won the game, nobody would like watching any sport at all.
You have to play for it, and your never better then your last game....case closed! No. What you are saying makes no sense at all. Suppose Flash makes a couple mistakes and Effort plays amazing starcraft (think of their proleague match) and wins the series. That would have been fine. The way Effort won Game 3 was fine and had the rest of the games gone like that I wouldn't be complaining. Seriously, this isn't that hard: If all you want is for the player you're rooting for to win, then you might like this series. If you want to see the best StarCraft you can, this wasn't it at all.
So what you are saying is that this was bad because the games were not the best starcraft you had seen?
Try to understand this. The point is not who the best player is before the game. The point is not that the best player on the paper should always win the game. That would ruin the fun of the game.
The point is not that the game always need to be so well played without any misstakes etc.
The fun thing is that this is a OSL final, nervs and adrenalin kicks in so much and the fact that the lesser skilled player can win is what makes it so much fun.
Flash made misstakes and did not play on top off his game, effort took great decisions, played amazing, had good micro and also great respons to what Flash did when he scouted it.
Effort won and he deserved it all the way. Flash fanboys can whine all they want about flash being the better player anyway. Of course Flash is still the better player.
But in this bo5 final, effort was simply the better one of the two.
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EPT
