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On April 03 2010 22:56 Megalisk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 22:53 Qeet wrote:
savior Record: 310 wins - 229 losses (57.51%)
flash 308 wins - 132 losses (70.00%) If savior had the opportunity to play as many games as Flash during his era of dominance, then his stats would be just as inflated.
you also have to realize that the average skill of players is ridiculously higher than back then and its much harder to maintain this sort of dominance when everyone is so damn good. Back when Savior beasted everyone and became Bonjwa, people were not even nearly as skilled in SC. Thats why the "Era of Bonjwa" occurred during times of innovation when the game was more "Fresh" so to speak. The fact that Flash can maintain that winrate in today's environment is just insane and imo more impressive. When Bisu put Savior in fetal position, he used a new and fresh build which no one had ever seen. Back then you could dominate because u invented one build and catch people completely in the dark. But today its a bit different
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Ah yes, I knew after a KT win the Flash fanboyism would take over... lol
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Vatican City State101 Posts
On April 03 2010 22:53 J1.au wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 22:44 Withershins wrote:On April 03 2010 22:40 J1.au wrote:On April 03 2010 22:36 darktreb wrote:On April 03 2010 22:35 gravity wrote:On April 03 2010 22:29 konadora wrote:On April 03 2010 22:24 okum wrote:On April 03 2010 22:22 Roffles wrote:On April 03 2010 22:21 samachking wrote:On April 03 2010 22:20 SkytoM wrote:
5 back to back Finals guys. Five. Flash is NOT a bonjwa. Its not about how many finals you play in. It's about how good you are relative to everyone else. And Flash can only be compared to Nada and Oov(with July=JD) in that aspect, Boxer and Savior dont even come close. You clearly did NOT see Savior play back in the days. That guy was unstoppable. Savior was not as dominant as Flash is now... You have to be joking. Savior was amazing but he had more 3-2s and close games compared to Flash just crushing almost everyone lately. I don't know if the win count matters that much. What matters is that at one point Savior was something like 26-1 in bo3/bo5's. Think about that for a second. At one point Flash was 22-0 against Terran. Think about that for a second. On April 03 2010 22:39 vnlegend wrote:
Flash is doing pretty well. But like Savior before him, he needs to decisively defeat the other medalist, an in-shape Jaedong, before he can be bonjwa.
Make excuses all you want but Jaedong outsmarted Flash and got the BO advantage in 4/4 games. Power outage or not, Flash had no chance in winning that 3rd game. Flash can't be responsible for Jaedong's shape. It's Jaedong's responsibility to step up and show he can compete with Flash, not the other way around. Yes, 22-0 against Terrans in 2009 sounds much better than 26-1 against direct rivals in individual leagues. My point was that anyone can pull out statistics that look good. 26-1 is fine and dandy, but how about providing some context for it. Also, I feel like you're saying that because Flash isn't 26-1 he can't be a bonjwa. What would that mean for Boxer, oov and Nada?
I personally couldn't care less about the word 'bonjwa' and its various definitions, it's only annoying watching how far rabid fans would go over few months of Flash's exceptional performance.
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On April 03 2010 23:03 Withershins wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 22:53 J1.au wrote:On April 03 2010 22:44 Withershins wrote:On April 03 2010 22:40 J1.au wrote:On April 03 2010 22:36 darktreb wrote:On April 03 2010 22:35 gravity wrote:On April 03 2010 22:29 konadora wrote:On April 03 2010 22:24 okum wrote:On April 03 2010 22:22 Roffles wrote:On April 03 2010 22:21 samachking wrote:
[quote]
Its not about how many finals you play in. It's about how good you are relative to everyone else. And Flash can only be compared to Nada and Oov(with July=JD) in that aspect, Boxer and Savior dont even come close. You clearly did NOT see Savior play back in the days. That guy was unstoppable. Savior was not as dominant as Flash is now... You have to be joking. Savior was amazing but he had more 3-2s and close games compared to Flash just crushing almost everyone lately. I don't know if the win count matters that much. What matters is that at one point Savior was something like 26-1 in bo3/bo5's. Think about that for a second. At one point Flash was 22-0 against Terran. Think about that for a second. On April 03 2010 22:39 vnlegend wrote:
Flash is doing pretty well. But like Savior before him, he needs to decisively defeat the other medalist, an in-shape Jaedong, before he can be bonjwa.
Make excuses all you want but Jaedong outsmarted Flash and got the BO advantage in 4/4 games. Power outage or not, Flash had no chance in winning that 3rd game. Flash can't be responsible for Jaedong's shape. It's Jaedong's responsibility to step up and show he can compete with Flash, not the other way around. Yes, 22-0 against Terrans in 2009 sounds much better than 26-1 against direct rivals in individual leagues. My point was that anyone can pull out statistics that look good. 26-1 is fine and dandy, but how about providing some context for it. Also, I feel like you're saying that because Flash isn't 26-1 he can't be a bonjwa. What would that mean for Boxer, oov and Nada? I personally couldn't care less about the word 'bonjwa' and its various definitions, it's only annoying watching how far rabid fans would go over few months of Flash's exceptional performance.
It's a tad better than "exceptional." The winrate is unprecedented - he's in the process of surpassing how crazily dominant Oov was. The only issue right now is duration.
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On April 03 2010 23:02 Ryo wrote:
Ah yes, I knew after a KT win the Flash fanboyism would take over... lol
what would you expect us to do? weep over our beloved player's dominance?
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On April 03 2010 23:00 AppleTart wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 22:56 Megalisk wrote:On April 03 2010 22:53 Qeet wrote:
savior Record: 310 wins - 229 losses (57.51%)
flash 308 wins - 132 losses (70.00%) If savior had the opportunity to play as many games as Flash during his era of dominance, then his stats would be just as inflated. you also have to realize that the average skill of players is ridiculously higher than back then and its much harder to maintain this sort of dominance when everyone is so damn good. Back when Savior beasted everyone and became Bonjwa, people were not even nearly as skilled in SC. Thats why the "Era of Bonjwa" occurred during times of innovation when the game was more "Fresh" so to speak. The fact that Flash can maintain that winrate in today's environment is just insane and imo more impressive
This is a dumb argument because it applies to EVERY era of dominance. Seriously, this applies to Boxer in his era, Nada in his, Oov in his, savior in his etc etc. Guess what, if BW is around for a few more years and Flash isn't as dominant, this same argument will be used for him as well.
This is like saying that every Boxer from before 1950 wasn't really good because if they faced today's average competition they'd get stomped. It's completely moot.
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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
Flash is doing well. He's shown that for the last season and a half, he's been able to sustain a high level of play that's comparable to the legends of the past.
But when you look back, you see that Savior was destroying throughout like 4-5 MSLs, Oov won like 3 MSLs in a row and was raping for an entire year. When Flash reaches those levels, I'll crown his ass. But till then, people need to stop sucking his dick like he's a saint or some shit like that.
Btw, nothing can touch Oov and his fucking sick start to his progaming career. When you have 85%+ in every god damn matchup through like 20 games in each, that's just sick.
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On April 03 2010 23:05 lolnoty wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 23:00 AppleTart wrote:On April 03 2010 22:56 Megalisk wrote:On April 03 2010 22:53 Qeet wrote:
savior Record: 310 wins - 229 losses (57.51%)
flash 308 wins - 132 losses (70.00%) If savior had the opportunity to play as many games as Flash during his era of dominance, then his stats would be just as inflated. you also have to realize that the average skill of players is ridiculously higher than back then and its much harder to maintain this sort of dominance when everyone is so damn good. Back when Savior beasted everyone and became Bonjwa, people were not even nearly as skilled in SC. Thats why the "Era of Bonjwa" occurred during times of innovation when the game was more "Fresh" so to speak. The fact that Flash can maintain that winrate in today's environment is just insane and imo more impressive This is a dumb argument because it applies to EVERY era of dominance. Seriously, this applies to Boxer in his era, Nada in his, Oov in his, savior in his etc etc. Guess what, if BW is around for a few more years and Flash isn't as dominant, this same argument will be used for him as well. This is like saying that every Boxer from before 1950 wasn't really good because if they faced today's average competition they'd get stomped. It's completely moot.
It's not moot because its harder to dominate when everyone is better... its easier to dominate when people are worse... Today in the NBA its alot harder for one player to own it up as it was back in the day, I'm not going to deny the skill of those who owned it up back in the day, they are LEGENDS! But if anyone WAS able to own it up like they did its all the more impressive, that is why many say the era of bonjwa is over because skill gaps are too tight these days. Flash is the one pioneering the new gap... also read my edit as well.
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United States23455 Posts
Let's wait till this OSL/MSL Finals.
If he can win both (which will be tough), then I will be ready to crown his ass all day.
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On April 03 2010 23:06 AppleTart wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 23:05 lolnoty wrote:On April 03 2010 23:00 AppleTart wrote:On April 03 2010 22:56 Megalisk wrote:On April 03 2010 22:53 Qeet wrote:
savior Record: 310 wins - 229 losses (57.51%)
flash 308 wins - 132 losses (70.00%) If savior had the opportunity to play as many games as Flash during his era of dominance, then his stats would be just as inflated. you also have to realize that the average skill of players is ridiculously higher than back then and its much harder to maintain this sort of dominance when everyone is so damn good. Back when Savior beasted everyone and became Bonjwa, people were not even nearly as skilled in SC. Thats why the "Era of Bonjwa" occurred during times of innovation when the game was more "Fresh" so to speak. The fact that Flash can maintain that winrate in today's environment is just insane and imo more impressive This is a dumb argument because it applies to EVERY era of dominance. Seriously, this applies to Boxer in his era, Nada in his, Oov in his, savior in his etc etc. Guess what, if BW is around for a few more years and Flash isn't as dominant, this same argument will be used for him as well. This is like saying that every Boxer from before 1950 wasn't really good because if they faced today's average competition they'd get stomped. It's completely moot. It's not moot because its harder to dominate when everyone is better... its easier to dominate when people are worse... Today in the NBA its alot harder for one player to own it up as it was back in the day...
but Lebron... haha jk.
ontopic, this needs to stop. We are entitled to our opinions. This discussion would be all over when he wins both leagues this season anyway.
edit: proleague too.
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On April 03 2010 22:56 Megalisk wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 22:53 Qeet wrote:
savior Record: 310 wins - 229 losses (57.51%)
flash 308 wins - 132 losses (70.00%) If savior had the opportunity to play as many games as Flash during his era of dominance, then his stats would be just as inflated.
No I don't think so. Savior was really damn good, like really damn good, but he tended to drop games here and there. I think his title of bonjwa kind of produced a cult of personality.
He was the "Bonjwa" because he was able to win in convincing fashion on some of the worst zerg maps ever. Most of his series wins weren't clean at all since most of the important ones (Iris, Hwasin, Midas, etc) were pretty hard fought.
That said, Bonjwa is a fucking awful word. Its a completely awful word that completely kills all constructive discussion.
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On April 03 2010 23:06 AppleTart wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 23:05 lolnoty wrote:On April 03 2010 23:00 AppleTart wrote:On April 03 2010 22:56 Megalisk wrote:On April 03 2010 22:53 Qeet wrote:
savior Record: 310 wins - 229 losses (57.51%)
flash 308 wins - 132 losses (70.00%) If savior had the opportunity to play as many games as Flash during his era of dominance, then his stats would be just as inflated. you also have to realize that the average skill of players is ridiculously higher than back then and its much harder to maintain this sort of dominance when everyone is so damn good. Back when Savior beasted everyone and became Bonjwa, people were not even nearly as skilled in SC. Thats why the "Era of Bonjwa" occurred during times of innovation when the game was more "Fresh" so to speak. The fact that Flash can maintain that winrate in today's environment is just insane and imo more impressive This is a dumb argument because it applies to EVERY era of dominance. Seriously, this applies to Boxer in his era, Nada in his, Oov in his, savior in his etc etc. Guess what, if BW is around for a few more years and Flash isn't as dominant, this same argument will be used for him as well. This is like saying that every Boxer from before 1950 wasn't really good because if they faced today's average competition they'd get stomped. It's completely moot. It's not moot because its harder to dominate when everyone is better... its easier to dominate when people are worse... Today in the NBA its alot harder for one player to own it up as it was back in the day, I'm not going to deny the skill of those who owned it up back in the day, they are LEGENDS! but if anyone WAS able to own it up like they did its all the more impressive... also read my edit as well.
You still don't get it, skill will always go up. To say that Flash is the best because he is better at the current skill level, you have to believe that the skill level in BW has capped out and cannot possibly rise further. It will continue to rise. That means that comparing skill levels relative to the average skill level at the time is a stupid thing to do and proves nothing.
The way skill levels evolve over time in BW means that each of the legends is equally impressive for being better than everyone else at the time. Flash is only as good as he is because he had access to the knowledge that they created, and he has now expanded on it and matched them in being better than everyone else at the time. None of these players can be compared in a head to head match-up because the skill levels they played in are not equal. It is a completely moot argument to compare people of different times head to head.
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On April 03 2010 23:05 Roffles wrote:
When you have 85%+ in every god damn matchup through like 20 games in each, that's just sick.
FvT: 17-3, 85%
FvZ: 15-5, 75%
FvP: 17-3, 85%
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On April 03 2010 23:14 lolnoty wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 23:06 AppleTart wrote:On April 03 2010 23:05 lolnoty wrote:On April 03 2010 23:00 AppleTart wrote:On April 03 2010 22:56 Megalisk wrote:On April 03 2010 22:53 Qeet wrote:
savior Record: 310 wins - 229 losses (57.51%)
flash 308 wins - 132 losses (70.00%) If savior had the opportunity to play as many games as Flash during his era of dominance, then his stats would be just as inflated. you also have to realize that the average skill of players is ridiculously higher than back then and its much harder to maintain this sort of dominance when everyone is so damn good. Back when Savior beasted everyone and became Bonjwa, people were not even nearly as skilled in SC. Thats why the "Era of Bonjwa" occurred during times of innovation when the game was more "Fresh" so to speak. The fact that Flash can maintain that winrate in today's environment is just insane and imo more impressive This is a dumb argument because it applies to EVERY era of dominance. Seriously, this applies to Boxer in his era, Nada in his, Oov in his, savior in his etc etc. Guess what, if BW is around for a few more years and Flash isn't as dominant, this same argument will be used for him as well. This is like saying that every Boxer from before 1950 wasn't really good because if they faced today's average competition they'd get stomped. It's completely moot. It's not moot because its harder to dominate when everyone is better... its easier to dominate when people are worse... Today in the NBA its alot harder for one player to own it up as it was back in the day, I'm not going to deny the skill of those who owned it up back in the day, they are LEGENDS! but if anyone WAS able to own it up like they did its all the more impressive... also read my edit as well. You still don't get it, skill will always go up. To say that Flash is the best because he is better at the current skill level, you have to believe that the skill level in BW has capped out and cannot possibly rise further. It will continue to rise. That means that comparing skill levels relative to the average skill level at the time is a stupid thing to do and proves nothing. The way skill levels evolve over time in BW means that each of the legends is equally impressive for being better than everyone else at the time. Flash is only as good as he is beter he had access to the knowledge that they created, and he has now expanded on it and matched them in being better than everyone else at the time. None of these players can be compared in a head to head match-up because the skill levels they played in are not equal. It is a completely moot argument to compare people of different times head to head.
But its not moot to consider skill gaps within time frames you are the one who doesn't get it. Take ANY sport (and yes SC is a sport) and look back in the day and today, if someone managed to pull a Jordan or a Pele today that would be ridiculously impresive
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On April 03 2010 23:15 AppleTart wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 23:14 lolnoty wrote:On April 03 2010 23:06 AppleTart wrote:On April 03 2010 23:05 lolnoty wrote:On April 03 2010 23:00 AppleTart wrote:On April 03 2010 22:56 Megalisk wrote:On April 03 2010 22:53 Qeet wrote:
savior Record: 310 wins - 229 losses (57.51%)
flash 308 wins - 132 losses (70.00%) If savior had the opportunity to play as many games as Flash during his era of dominance, then his stats would be just as inflated. you also have to realize that the average skill of players is ridiculously higher than back then and its much harder to maintain this sort of dominance when everyone is so damn good. Back when Savior beasted everyone and became Bonjwa, people were not even nearly as skilled in SC. Thats why the "Era of Bonjwa" occurred during times of innovation when the game was more "Fresh" so to speak. The fact that Flash can maintain that winrate in today's environment is just insane and imo more impressive This is a dumb argument because it applies to EVERY era of dominance. Seriously, this applies to Boxer in his era, Nada in his, Oov in his, savior in his etc etc. Guess what, if BW is around for a few more years and Flash isn't as dominant, this same argument will be used for him as well. This is like saying that every Boxer from before 1950 wasn't really good because if they faced today's average competition they'd get stomped. It's completely moot. It's not moot because its harder to dominate when everyone is better... its easier to dominate when people are worse... Today in the NBA its alot harder for one player to own it up as it was back in the day, I'm not going to deny the skill of those who owned it up back in the day, they are LEGENDS! but if anyone WAS able to own it up like they did its all the more impressive... also read my edit as well. You still don't get it, skill will always go up. To say that Flash is the best because he is better at the current skill level, you have to believe that the skill level in BW has capped out and cannot possibly rise further. It will continue to rise. That means that comparing skill levels relative to the average skill level at the time is a stupid thing to do and proves nothing. The way skill levels evolve over time in BW means that each of the legends is equally impressive for being better than everyone else at the time. Flash is only as good as he is beter he had access to the knowledge that they created, and he has now expanded on it and matched them in being better than everyone else at the time. None of these players can be compared in a head to head match-up because the skill levels they played in are not equal. It is a completely moot argument to compare people of different times head to head. But its not moot to consider skill gaps within timeframes
Yes it is because it literally cannot prove a damn thing. That is the definition of something being moot. It is a worthless argument.
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On April 03 2010 23:16 lolnoty wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 23:15 AppleTart wrote:On April 03 2010 23:14 lolnoty wrote:On April 03 2010 23:06 AppleTart wrote:On April 03 2010 23:05 lolnoty wrote:On April 03 2010 23:00 AppleTart wrote:On April 03 2010 22:56 Megalisk wrote:On April 03 2010 22:53 Qeet wrote:
savior Record: 310 wins - 229 losses (57.51%)
flash 308 wins - 132 losses (70.00%) If savior had the opportunity to play as many games as Flash during his era of dominance, then his stats would be just as inflated. you also have to realize that the average skill of players is ridiculously higher than back then and its much harder to maintain this sort of dominance when everyone is so damn good. Back when Savior beasted everyone and became Bonjwa, people were not even nearly as skilled in SC. Thats why the "Era of Bonjwa" occurred during times of innovation when the game was more "Fresh" so to speak. The fact that Flash can maintain that winrate in today's environment is just insane and imo more impressive This is a dumb argument because it applies to EVERY era of dominance. Seriously, this applies to Boxer in his era, Nada in his, Oov in his, savior in his etc etc. Guess what, if BW is around for a few more years and Flash isn't as dominant, this same argument will be used for him as well. This is like saying that every Boxer from before 1950 wasn't really good because if they faced today's average competition they'd get stomped. It's completely moot. It's not moot because its harder to dominate when everyone is better... its easier to dominate when people are worse... Today in the NBA its alot harder for one player to own it up as it was back in the day, I'm not going to deny the skill of those who owned it up back in the day, they are LEGENDS! but if anyone WAS able to own it up like they did its all the more impressive... also read my edit as well. You still don't get it, skill will always go up. To say that Flash is the best because he is better at the current skill level, you have to believe that the skill level in BW has capped out and cannot possibly rise further. It will continue to rise. That means that comparing skill levels relative to the average skill level at the time is a stupid thing to do and proves nothing. The way skill levels evolve over time in BW means that each of the legends is equally impressive for being better than everyone else at the time. Flash is only as good as he is beter he had access to the knowledge that they created, and he has now expanded on it and matched them in being better than everyone else at the time. None of these players can be compared in a head to head match-up because the skill levels they played in are not equal. It is a completely moot argument to compare people of different times head to head. But its not moot to consider skill gaps within timeframes Yes it is because it literally cannot prove a damn thing. That is the definition of something being moot. It is a worthless argument.
But its not moot to consider skill gaps within time frames you are the one who doesn't get it. Take ANY sport (and yes SC is a sport) and look back in the day and today, if someone managed to pull a Jordan or a Pele today that would be ridiculously impresive
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On April 03 2010 23:05 Roffles wrote:
Flash is doing well. He's shown that for the last season and a half, he's been able to sustain a high level of play that's comparable to the legends of the past.
But when you look back, you see that Savior was destroying throughout like 4-5 MSLs, Oov won like 3 MSLs in a row and was raping for an entire year. When Flash reaches those levels, I'll crown his ass. But till then, people need to stop sucking his dick like he's a saint or some shit like that.
Btw, nothing can touch Oov and his fucking sick start to his progaming career. When you have 85%+ in every god damn matchup through like 20 games in each, that's just sick.
wrong aproach, you only look at the results, not what is causing them..
the reason players cant stay at the top very long is the large amount of games they are playing, and their style is figuered out faster
oov revolutionized the whole game with his macro heavy style
savior did it too in zvt and zvp by utilizing some units perfectly like lurkers and defilers
flash revolutionized tvp long ago on katrina with his fast upgrade style ending carriers domination over terrans, now it looks like he did it again in every matchup
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On April 03 2010 23:17 AppleTart wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 23:16 lolnoty wrote:On April 03 2010 23:15 AppleTart wrote:On April 03 2010 23:14 lolnoty wrote:On April 03 2010 23:06 AppleTart wrote:On April 03 2010 23:05 lolnoty wrote:On April 03 2010 23:00 AppleTart wrote:On April 03 2010 22:56 Megalisk wrote:On April 03 2010 22:53 Qeet wrote:
savior Record: 310 wins - 229 losses (57.51%)
flash 308 wins - 132 losses (70.00%) If savior had the opportunity to play as many games as Flash during his era of dominance, then his stats would be just as inflated. you also have to realize that the average skill of players is ridiculously higher than back then and its much harder to maintain this sort of dominance when everyone is so damn good. Back when Savior beasted everyone and became Bonjwa, people were not even nearly as skilled in SC. Thats why the "Era of Bonjwa" occurred during times of innovation when the game was more "Fresh" so to speak. The fact that Flash can maintain that winrate in today's environment is just insane and imo more impressive This is a dumb argument because it applies to EVERY era of dominance. Seriously, this applies to Boxer in his era, Nada in his, Oov in his, savior in his etc etc. Guess what, if BW is around for a few more years and Flash isn't as dominant, this same argument will be used for him as well. This is like saying that every Boxer from before 1950 wasn't really good because if they faced today's average competition they'd get stomped. It's completely moot. It's not moot because its harder to dominate when everyone is better... its easier to dominate when people are worse... Today in the NBA its alot harder for one player to own it up as it was back in the day, I'm not going to deny the skill of those who owned it up back in the day, they are LEGENDS! but if anyone WAS able to own it up like they did its all the more impressive... also read my edit as well. You still don't get it, skill will always go up. To say that Flash is the best because he is better at the current skill level, you have to believe that the skill level in BW has capped out and cannot possibly rise further. It will continue to rise. That means that comparing skill levels relative to the average skill level at the time is a stupid thing to do and proves nothing. The way skill levels evolve over time in BW means that each of the legends is equally impressive for being better than everyone else at the time. Flash is only as good as he is beter he had access to the knowledge that they created, and he has now expanded on it and matched them in being better than everyone else at the time. None of these players can be compared in a head to head match-up because the skill levels they played in are not equal. It is a completely moot argument to compare people of different times head to head. But its not moot to consider skill gaps within timeframes Yes it is because it literally cannot prove a damn thing. That is the definition of something being moot. It is a worthless argument. But its not moot to consider skill gaps within time frames you are the one who doesn't get it. Take ANY sport (and yes SC is a sport) and look back in the day and today, if someone managed to pull a Jordan or a Pele today that would be ridiculously impresive
If someone from 1930 does not have the same tools to work with as someone from 2010, then it is incorrect to say that it is more impressive that a man from 2010 went around the world twice where a man from 1930 went around the world once.
Do you get what I'm saying? Players are operating with different amounts of information and knowledge when they are in their respective times, therefore you can never truly say that one has done something more impressive than the other. They did not have equal circumstances. Because of this, to say that Flash beating people today is more impressive than Oov beating people in 2003 is a fruitless argument because the factors are so far away from being equal that you cannot compare them.
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On April 03 2010 23:23 lolnoty wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 23:17 AppleTart wrote:On April 03 2010 23:16 lolnoty wrote:On April 03 2010 23:15 AppleTart wrote:On April 03 2010 23:14 lolnoty wrote:On April 03 2010 23:06 AppleTart wrote:On April 03 2010 23:05 lolnoty wrote:On April 03 2010 23:00 AppleTart wrote:On April 03 2010 22:56 Megalisk wrote:On April 03 2010 22:53 Qeet wrote:
savior Record: 310 wins - 229 losses (57.51%)
flash 308 wins - 132 losses (70.00%) If savior had the opportunity to play as many games as Flash during his era of dominance, then his stats would be just as inflated. you also have to realize that the average skill of players is ridiculously higher than back then and its much harder to maintain this sort of dominance when everyone is so damn good. Back when Savior beasted everyone and became Bonjwa, people were not even nearly as skilled in SC. Thats why the "Era of Bonjwa" occurred during times of innovation when the game was more "Fresh" so to speak. The fact that Flash can maintain that winrate in today's environment is just insane and imo more impressive This is a dumb argument because it applies to EVERY era of dominance. Seriously, this applies to Boxer in his era, Nada in his, Oov in his, savior in his etc etc. Guess what, if BW is around for a few more years and Flash isn't as dominant, this same argument will be used for him as well. This is like saying that every Boxer from before 1950 wasn't really good because if they faced today's average competition they'd get stomped. It's completely moot. It's not moot because its harder to dominate when everyone is better... its easier to dominate when people are worse... Today in the NBA its alot harder for one player to own it up as it was back in the day, I'm not going to deny the skill of those who owned it up back in the day, they are LEGENDS! but if anyone WAS able to own it up like they did its all the more impressive... also read my edit as well. You still don't get it, skill will always go up. To say that Flash is the best because he is better at the current skill level, you have to believe that the skill level in BW has capped out and cannot possibly rise further. It will continue to rise. That means that comparing skill levels relative to the average skill level at the time is a stupid thing to do and proves nothing. The way skill levels evolve over time in BW means that each of the legends is equally impressive for being better than everyone else at the time. Flash is only as good as he is beter he had access to the knowledge that they created, and he has now expanded on it and matched them in being better than everyone else at the time. None of these players can be compared in a head to head match-up because the skill levels they played in are not equal. It is a completely moot argument to compare people of different times head to head. But its not moot to consider skill gaps within timeframes Yes it is because it literally cannot prove a damn thing. That is the definition of something being moot. It is a worthless argument. But its not moot to consider skill gaps within time frames you are the one who doesn't get it. Take ANY sport (and yes SC is a sport) and look back in the day and today, if someone managed to pull a Jordan or a Pele today that would be ridiculously impresive If someone from 1930 does not have the same tools to work with as someone from 2010, then it is incorrect to say that it is more impressive that a man from 2010 went around the world twice where a man from 1930 went around the world once. Do you get what I'm saying? Players are operating with different amounts of information and knowledge when they are in their respective times, therefore you can never truly say that one has done something more impressive than the other. They did not have equal circumstances. Because of this, to say that Flash beating people today is more impressive than Oov beating people in 2003 is a fruitless argument because the factors are so far away from being equal that you cannot compare them.
Look at it this way:
back in the day if the only weapons you had was either your fist or a rock or stick, its easy to dominate in a fight if you whip out a new weapon called a spear or sword
But if everyone today knows how to use knives, swords, guns, rocks, and swords and spears and etc etc, its MUCH harder to dominate and MUCH harder to come up with something new.
The gaps today are much tighter than they were before in all sports.
Im not going to deny Savior. Savior is like the Jordan of SC and is freaking awesome. But I'm just saying Bonjwas just get more impressive
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On April 03 2010 23:25 AppleTart wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 23:23 lolnoty wrote:On April 03 2010 23:17 AppleTart wrote:On April 03 2010 23:16 lolnoty wrote:On April 03 2010 23:15 AppleTart wrote:On April 03 2010 23:14 lolnoty wrote:On April 03 2010 23:06 AppleTart wrote:On April 03 2010 23:05 lolnoty wrote:On April 03 2010 23:00 AppleTart wrote:On April 03 2010 22:56 Megalisk wrote:
[quote]
If savior had the opportunity to play as many games as Flash during his era of dominance, then his stats would be just as inflated. you also have to realize that the average skill of players is ridiculously higher than back then and its much harder to maintain this sort of dominance when everyone is so damn good. Back when Savior beasted everyone and became Bonjwa, people were not even nearly as skilled in SC. Thats why the "Era of Bonjwa" occurred during times of innovation when the game was more "Fresh" so to speak. The fact that Flash can maintain that winrate in today's environment is just insane and imo more impressive This is a dumb argument because it applies to EVERY era of dominance. Seriously, this applies to Boxer in his era, Nada in his, Oov in his, savior in his etc etc. Guess what, if BW is around for a few more years and Flash isn't as dominant, this same argument will be used for him as well. This is like saying that every Boxer from before 1950 wasn't really good because if they faced today's average competition they'd get stomped. It's completely moot. It's not moot because its harder to dominate when everyone is better... its easier to dominate when people are worse... Today in the NBA its alot harder for one player to own it up as it was back in the day, I'm not going to deny the skill of those who owned it up back in the day, they are LEGENDS! but if anyone WAS able to own it up like they did its all the more impressive... also read my edit as well. You still don't get it, skill will always go up. To say that Flash is the best because he is better at the current skill level, you have to believe that the skill level in BW has capped out and cannot possibly rise further. It will continue to rise. That means that comparing skill levels relative to the average skill level at the time is a stupid thing to do and proves nothing. The way skill levels evolve over time in BW means that each of the legends is equally impressive for being better than everyone else at the time. Flash is only as good as he is beter he had access to the knowledge that they created, and he has now expanded on it and matched them in being better than everyone else at the time. None of these players can be compared in a head to head match-up because the skill levels they played in are not equal. It is a completely moot argument to compare people of different times head to head. But its not moot to consider skill gaps within timeframes Yes it is because it literally cannot prove a damn thing. That is the definition of something being moot. It is a worthless argument. But its not moot to consider skill gaps within time frames you are the one who doesn't get it. Take ANY sport (and yes SC is a sport) and look back in the day and today, if someone managed to pull a Jordan or a Pele today that would be ridiculously impresive If someone from 1930 does not have the same tools to work with as someone from 2010, then it is incorrect to say that it is more impressive that a man from 2010 went around the world twice where a man from 1930 went around the world once. Do you get what I'm saying? Players are operating with different amounts of information and knowledge when they are in their respective times, therefore you can never truly say that one has done something more impressive than the other. They did not have equal circumstances. Because of this, to say that Flash beating people today is more impressive than Oov beating people in 2003 is a fruitless argument because the factors are so far away from being equal that you cannot compare them. Look at it this way: back in the day if the only weapons you had was either your fist or a rock or stick, its easy to dominate in a fight if you whip out a new weapon called a spear or sword But if everyone today knows how to use knives, swords, guns, rocks, and swords and spears and etc etc, its MUCH harder to dominate and MUCH harder to come up with something new
No. You cannot compare those situations. You are not good at this.
I should not argue with people on this website.
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