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Roffles
Pitcairn19291 Posts
On April 03 2010 22:29 samachking wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 22:26 Megalisk wrote:On April 03 2010 22:25 samachking wrote:On April 03 2010 22:22 Roffles wrote:On April 03 2010 22:21 samachking wrote:On April 03 2010 22:20 SkytoM wrote:
5 back to back Finals guys. Five. Flash is NOT a bonjwa. Its not about how many finals you play in. It's about how good you are relative to everyone else. And Flash can only be compared to Nada and Oov(with July=JD) in that aspect, Boxer and Savior dont even come close. You clearly did NOT see Savior play back in the days. That guy was unstoppable. I saw his highlights and his Shinhan games + his non ZvP finals. And he was not ahead over everyone else as Flash is now, the only person that can touch Flash in the late game is JD and only JD. + Savior had a 70% winrate and decent ZvZ and never qualified for the OSL in 2 years, Flash has 80% winrate and has been dominating everyone left and right. Sadly Zerg doesn't give the degree of safety and dominance as Terran does. But were you around to witness the day to day games he played, and destroyed everyone in? Nope. I know his ZvT and ZvP were godlike, but Flash is just as dominant but in 3 mus instead of 2 while playing more games and qualifying for both leagues. This is Savior's prime including offline games: Savior from 4/2005 to 3/2007
If you haven't watched the games, go watch them and then come back and talk. You can't judge a player based on his highlights.
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On April 03 2010 22:29 Roffles wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 22:25 samachking wrote:On April 03 2010 22:22 Roffles wrote:On April 03 2010 22:21 samachking wrote:On April 03 2010 22:20 SkytoM wrote:
5 back to back Finals guys. Five. Flash is NOT a bonjwa. Its not about how many finals you play in. It's about how good you are relative to everyone else. And Flash can only be compared to Nada and Oov(with July=JD) in that aspect, Boxer and Savior dont even come close. You clearly did NOT see Savior play back in the days. That guy was unstoppable. I saw his highlights and his Shinhan games + his non ZvP finals. And he was not ahead over everyone else as Flash is now, the only person that can touch Flash in the late game is JD and only JD. + Savior had a 70% winrate and decent ZvZ and never qualified for the OSL in 2 years, Flash has 80% winrate and has been dominating everyone left and right. Sadly Zerg doesn't give the degree of safety and dominance as Terran does. Go watch his games instead of his highlights. Then come back and tell me that's not complete dominance. Watch his game vs Iris on Arkanoid, tell me that's not a work of art. Watch his ZvPs from pre-Bisu era. Then you can come back and tell me "I see why Savior had 85% ZvP at that time"
I did watch them. Sorry I meant non ZvZ finals. I watched his bo5s vs Ra and Reach. And his game vs Iris is the greatest game of BW ever played. Is it as dominant as Flash's games? no. Sure the maps were imbalanced as hell, but Flash had Katrina and Medusa too. Skill wise and dominance wise, flash is a bonjwa.
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On April 03 2010 22:29 AppleTart wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 22:28 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 03 2010 22:26 TwoToneTerran wrote:On April 03 2010 22:25 Roffles wrote:On April 03 2010 22:24 okum wrote:On April 03 2010 22:22 Roffles wrote:On April 03 2010 22:21 samachking wrote:On April 03 2010 22:20 SkytoM wrote:
5 back to back Finals guys. Five. Flash is NOT a bonjwa. Its not about how many finals you play in. It's about how good you are relative to everyone else. And Flash can only be compared to Nada and Oov(with July=JD) in that aspect, Boxer and Savior dont even come close. You clearly did NOT see Savior play back in the days. That guy was unstoppable. Savior was not as dominant as Flash is now... .... You serious? he might be, it depends on what you consider dominance. Flash certainly wins more, but he also plays more. But everyone who saw it knows about savior's "aura." Flash is getting that Aura, he just has to use it to destroy someone great in a finals. He needs to beat Jaedong in a finals match decisively, just as Savior dismantled Nada in Shinhan 3. If that happens then no one will challenge the opinion that Flash is bonjwa. that can only happen if JD makes it to finals again > 
Doesn't matter if Jaedong gets knocked out in the MSL RO16 by someone other than Flash. I don't see a single Jaedong fan willing to call Flash bonjwa until those two meet in a finals and Flash wins in a dominating fashion.
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kt just won the WL, of couse everyone will be praising flash. But too me, he showed that he can beat scrubs with no risk of losing, i really doubt he's really above a bonjwa level (the day he can beat JD consistently i'll start believing that)
but in the finals, sea was the only good player he beated. in this WL, he light won more than him. But no point in arguing with fanboys when they're hyped by a title
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
On April 03 2010 22:29 darktreb wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 22:27 alffla wrote:On April 03 2010 22:22 Roffles wrote:On April 03 2010 22:20 TwoToneTerran wrote:On April 03 2010 22:20 SkytoM wrote:
5 back to back Finals guys. Five. Flash is NOT a bonjwa. Um, what? Who has 5 back to back finals? Savior. Savior > Reach, Chojja > Savior, Savior > rA, Savior > Silver, Bisu > Savior That was OSL, and yes Savior did beat rA in an MSL....
oh yea
hm..wtf
somehow i dont remember that as a final hahah wtf
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konadora
Singapore66366 Posts
On April 03 2010 22:31 alffla wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 22:29 darktreb wrote:On April 03 2010 22:27 alffla wrote:On April 03 2010 22:22 Roffles wrote:On April 03 2010 22:20 TwoToneTerran wrote:On April 03 2010 22:20 SkytoM wrote:
5 back to back Finals guys. Five. Flash is NOT a bonjwa. Um, what? Who has 5 back to back finals? Savior. Savior > Reach, Chojja > Savior, Savior > rA, Savior > Silver, Bisu > Savior That was OSL, and yes Savior did beat rA in an MSL.... oh yea hm..wtf somehow i dont remember that as a final hahah wtf
the muta micro against archons? no?  ?
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And the competition ain't fiercer these days with a way higher overall skill... Please tell me of one game where the overall skill has stayed the same for years. I would be very surprised if anyone is able to do so.
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On April 03 2010 22:31 Kyo Yuy wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 22:29 AppleTart wrote:On April 03 2010 22:28 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 03 2010 22:26 TwoToneTerran wrote:On April 03 2010 22:25 Roffles wrote:On April 03 2010 22:24 okum wrote:On April 03 2010 22:22 Roffles wrote:On April 03 2010 22:21 samachking wrote:On April 03 2010 22:20 SkytoM wrote:
5 back to back Finals guys. Five. Flash is NOT a bonjwa. Its not about how many finals you play in. It's about how good you are relative to everyone else. And Flash can only be compared to Nada and Oov(with July=JD) in that aspect, Boxer and Savior dont even come close. You clearly did NOT see Savior play back in the days. That guy was unstoppable. Savior was not as dominant as Flash is now... .... You serious? he might be, it depends on what you consider dominance. Flash certainly wins more, but he also plays more. But everyone who saw it knows about savior's "aura." Flash is getting that Aura, he just has to use it to destroy someone great in a finals. He needs to beat Jaedong in a finals match decisively, just as Savior dismantled Nada in Shinhan 3. If that happens then no one will challenge the opinion that Flash is bonjwa. that can only happen if JD makes it to finals again > Doesn't matter if Jaedong gets knocked out in the MSL RO16 by someone other than Flash. I don't see a single Jaedong fan willing to call Flash bonjwa until those two meet in a finals and Flash wins in a dominating fashion.
Just because JD fans dont admit hes a Bonjwa doesn't mean he isnt >>
His status shouldn't be dependent on the performance of another player making it to the finals. if anything, Jaedong NOT making it to the finals gives more of a reason that no one is there to challenge flash
Many of us already say he is the B word, and apparently korean commentators are throwing it around now too. Those guys know what they are talking about.
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On April 03 2010 22:31 Jackal03 wrote:
kt just won the WL, of couse everyone will be praising flash. But too me, he showed that he can beat scrubs with no risk of losing, i really doubt he's really above a bonjwa level (the day he can beat JD consistently i'll start believing that)
but in the finals, sea was the only good player he beated. in this WL, he light won more than him. But no point in arguing with fanboys when they're hyped by a title
Leading up to this he beat Kal, Calm, Shuttle, Kwanro, Sea, Hyun and Light, and only lost to Leta. Flash destroyed this WL and the only reason he isn't rolling in all kills is because KT has a habit of atleast winning one game for him.
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If everyone would stop sucking Savior's cock, and Flash's for that matter, they would realize how pointless this discussion is. Savior played years ago and was Bonjwa, that being said, we live in the present, get over it and stop acting like idiots.
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On April 03 2010 22:31 alffla wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 22:29 darktreb wrote:On April 03 2010 22:27 alffla wrote:On April 03 2010 22:22 Roffles wrote:On April 03 2010 22:20 TwoToneTerran wrote:On April 03 2010 22:20 SkytoM wrote:
5 back to back Finals guys. Five. Flash is NOT a bonjwa. Um, what? Who has 5 back to back finals? Savior. Savior > Reach, Chojja > Savior, Savior > rA, Savior > Silver, Bisu > Savior That was OSL, and yes Savior did beat rA in an MSL.... oh yea hm..wtf somehow i dont remember that as a final hahah wtf
ur probably mixing up with savior vs nalra semi the next season i think
savior made me quit watching sc cuz he beat nal_ra in finals and semi back to back. god i hated him lol
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The bonjwa debate will go on unless Flash definitively murders Jaedong in another (bo5) series (very hard to do) but I think a better question is this:
In 2 years, if BW lives, will everyone play at Flash's current level? It's almost unfathomable, but the level of play today was unfathomable in 2007.
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On April 03 2010 22:29 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 22:24 okum wrote:On April 03 2010 22:22 Roffles wrote:On April 03 2010 22:21 samachking wrote:On April 03 2010 22:20 SkytoM wrote:
5 back to back Finals guys. Five. Flash is NOT a bonjwa. Its not about how many finals you play in. It's about how good you are relative to everyone else. And Flash can only be compared to Nada and Oov(with July=JD) in that aspect, Boxer and Savior dont even come close. You clearly did NOT see Savior play back in the days. That guy was unstoppable. Savior was not as dominant as Flash is now... You have to be joking.
Savior was amazing but he had more 3-2s and close games compared to Flash just crushing almost everyone lately.
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On April 03 2010 22:35 gravity wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 22:29 konadora wrote:On April 03 2010 22:24 okum wrote:On April 03 2010 22:22 Roffles wrote:On April 03 2010 22:21 samachking wrote:On April 03 2010 22:20 SkytoM wrote:
5 back to back Finals guys. Five. Flash is NOT a bonjwa. Its not about how many finals you play in. It's about how good you are relative to everyone else. And Flash can only be compared to Nada and Oov(with July=JD) in that aspect, Boxer and Savior dont even come close. You clearly did NOT see Savior play back in the days. That guy was unstoppable. Savior was not as dominant as Flash is now... You have to be joking. Savior was amazing but he had more 3-2s and close games compared to Flash just crushing almost everyone lately.
I don't know if the win count matters that much. What matters is that at one point Savior was something like 26-1 in bo3/bo5's.
Think about that for a second.
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On April 03 2010 22:33 AppleTart wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 22:31 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 03 2010 22:29 AppleTart wrote:On April 03 2010 22:28 Kyo Yuy wrote:On April 03 2010 22:26 TwoToneTerran wrote:On April 03 2010 22:25 Roffles wrote:On April 03 2010 22:24 okum wrote:On April 03 2010 22:22 Roffles wrote:On April 03 2010 22:21 samachking wrote:On April 03 2010 22:20 SkytoM wrote:
5 back to back Finals guys. Five. Flash is NOT a bonjwa. Its not about how many finals you play in. It's about how good you are relative to everyone else. And Flash can only be compared to Nada and Oov(with July=JD) in that aspect, Boxer and Savior dont even come close. You clearly did NOT see Savior play back in the days. That guy was unstoppable. Savior was not as dominant as Flash is now... .... You serious? he might be, it depends on what you consider dominance. Flash certainly wins more, but he also plays more. But everyone who saw it knows about savior's "aura." Flash is getting that Aura, he just has to use it to destroy someone great in a finals. He needs to beat Jaedong in a finals match decisively, just as Savior dismantled Nada in Shinhan 3. If that happens then no one will challenge the opinion that Flash is bonjwa. that can only happen if JD makes it to finals again > Doesn't matter if Jaedong gets knocked out in the MSL RO16 by someone other than Flash. I don't see a single Jaedong fan willing to call Flash bonjwa until those two meet in a finals and Flash wins in a dominating fashion. Just because JD fans dont admit hes a Bonjwa doesn't mean he isnt >> His status shouldn't be dependent on the performance of another player making it to the finals. if anything, Jaedong NOT making it to the finals gives more of a reason that no one is there to challenge flash Many of us already say he is the B word, and apparently korean commentators are throwing it around now too. Those guys know what they are talking about.
Oh I fully agree. I've always been a huge Flash fan, in fact he got me into progaming and his games vs Jaedong in Bacchus 08 were some of the first progames I ever saw. The play he exhibits these days is stunning, just the fact that he can abuse the slightest bit of weakness in his opponent's strategy, as well as his ability to cut corners without showing vulnerability - it reminds me of Savior at his prime.
But you try convincing Jaedong fans that Flash is the current bonjwa and see what kind of response you get. XD
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Flash is doing pretty well. But like Savior before him, he needs to decisively defeat the other medalist, an in-shape Jaedong, before he can be bonjwa.
Make excuses all you want but Jaedong outsmarted Flash and got the BO advantage in 4/4 games. Power outage or not, Flash had no chance in winning that 3rd game.
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On April 03 2010 22:36 darktreb wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 22:35 gravity wrote:On April 03 2010 22:29 konadora wrote:On April 03 2010 22:24 okum wrote:On April 03 2010 22:22 Roffles wrote:On April 03 2010 22:21 samachking wrote:On April 03 2010 22:20 SkytoM wrote:
5 back to back Finals guys. Five. Flash is NOT a bonjwa. Its not about how many finals you play in. It's about how good you are relative to everyone else. And Flash can only be compared to Nada and Oov(with July=JD) in that aspect, Boxer and Savior dont even come close. You clearly did NOT see Savior play back in the days. That guy was unstoppable. Savior was not as dominant as Flash is now... You have to be joking. Savior was amazing but he had more 3-2s and close games compared to Flash just crushing almost everyone lately. I don't know if the win count matters that much. What matters is that at one point Savior was something like 26-1 in bo3/bo5's. Think about that for a second.
What, so win count doesn't matter except when you say it does? If you want to talk about sheer skill, win count (or actually, Elo) matters more than BoX wins or even titles. You could say that BoXs and titles say something about a player's ability to be clutch and cope with big moments and all that, but there's a big element of luck to those things too. Savior came withing a hair's breadth of getting knocked out of the OSL that he won (which is partly why it was so exciting).
edit: Another example is (original) Yellow who in a slightly different world could have won more leagues than Boxer. Or Boxer's 2/6 record in OSL finals for that matter.
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lol you guys arguing about the number of titles flash has compared to jaedong. Jaedong debuted about 1 year ahead of flash so naturally he has more title opportunities then flash. Im not usually a fan of bonjwa talks but the current flash is bonjwa to me, and apparently, more then bonjwa for the commentators.
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On April 03 2010 22:36 darktreb wrote:Show nested quote +On April 03 2010 22:35 gravity wrote:On April 03 2010 22:29 konadora wrote:On April 03 2010 22:24 okum wrote:On April 03 2010 22:22 Roffles wrote:On April 03 2010 22:21 samachking wrote:On April 03 2010 22:20 SkytoM wrote:
5 back to back Finals guys. Five. Flash is NOT a bonjwa. Its not about how many finals you play in. It's about how good you are relative to everyone else. And Flash can only be compared to Nada and Oov(with July=JD) in that aspect, Boxer and Savior dont even come close. You clearly did NOT see Savior play back in the days. That guy was unstoppable. Savior was not as dominant as Flash is now... You have to be joking. Savior was amazing but he had more 3-2s and close games compared to Flash just crushing almost everyone lately. I don't know if the win count matters that much. What matters is that at one point Savior was something like 26-1 in bo3/bo5's. Think about that for a second.
At one point Flash was 22-0 against Terran.
Think about that for a second.
On April 03 2010 22:39 vnlegend wrote:
Flash is doing pretty well. But like Savior before him, he needs to decisively defeat the other medalist, an in-shape Jaedong, before he can be bonjwa.
Make excuses all you want but Jaedong outsmarted Flash and got the BO advantage in 4/4 games. Power outage or not, Flash had no chance in winning that 3rd game.
Flash can't be responsible for Jaedong's shape. It's Jaedong's responsibility to step up and show he can compete with Flash, not the other way around.
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On April 03 2010 22:20 SkytoM wrote:
5 back to back Finals guys. Five. Flash is NOT a bonjwa.
What about 3 finals in one season (OSL, MSL, SWL), with 2 golds and one silver. Plus a 4-3 overall record over the other gold winner?
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EPT
