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On February 15 2010 08:14 Malinor wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2010 08:10 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
I feel the same way here that I do about Flash vs Jaedong.
Flash is the overall better player, Jaedong outprepared him. If you really think everytime someone loses a game then they are a worse player than the player who beat them you are fucking stupid.
Therefore:
HyuN > Flash
Sen > Ret
frOzean > Bisu
etc.
NonY prepared beautifully. IdrA knows NonY is comfortable in macro games and that's what he prepared for, NonY countered that thought and did the exact opposite of what IdrA expected. Reminds me a bit of Flash vs Stork in Bacchus 2008 where Stork prepared for the Flash style build and Flash just did an all-in every game and raped Stork.
IdrA completely outclasses NonY in mechanics/multitask/macro/micro but he just wasn't prepared.
I'm not shitting on NonY or his accomplishments. It's a beautiful thing to see this level of preparation and I really like that kind of stuff. You are just lecturing people, and you do that actually before anyone actually said something about it. Therefore, you actually create your own drama. You really just sound like a smartass in this thread. Besides that, you would have to define what "a better player" means. If you take preparation, psychology and other stuff out, there is actually not much left besides raw mechanics. I am sure if both played 100 games against each other, Idra would win more. If that is what you mean by a better player, then yay.
uh i don't know what you're talking about but I was posting in my own defense after people started arguments with me
Better overall player, more skilled, will win the majority of times they played if they played 1000000 games, etc. Yes that is what I mean. NonY prepared better for this Bo5 and I admit that so what exactly are you arguing?
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On February 15 2010 08:14 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2010 08:10 MountainDewJunkie wrote:On February 15 2010 08:08 SuperArc wrote:
People laughing at Idra for losing even though he's practicing with Koreans need to look at the bigger picture.
Idra lost BECAUSE he's training with Koreans. No Korean would expect proxy gates against a rax expand, because its unimaginable. (all-ins are so rare apart from WL). I suggest you hide that CJ tag in the corner before you post such hilarious things. Idra's just soooo good that he's too good and thus falls for "foreigner" tricks. That's the power of denial. Honestly the idea that good players lose to bad players sometimes because they are bad is totally valid. when you are used to practicing with players who always do the most efficient/rational thing you might not scout something like a critical hidden expansion because "no one would be stupid enough to expand here because it is impossible to defend, etc."
Thats why playing reactively is so important. Thats why flash is so good, what many of the commentators were saying is that Flash (although he does cheese) uses reactive cheeses. If he scouts a 12 nex he will cheese as a response, but he will almost never just go a straight blind 8 rax or something like that (well very very very rarely... Flash's blind cheesing is very low, and although he may have done it before, its pretty much in the safe range of how everyone blind cheeses). Bunker rushing because u scouted a 12 nex is a lot different than a 4 pool.
Commentators have been saying for so long that he is the anti cheese and he just can react to any situation almost flawlessly. Thats why he always does his standard stuff to start each game. He knows hes good enough to react to any sort of unorthodox stuff. Yes its true Idra expected stuff, but Nony exploited that weakness. Exploiting an opponents weakness is probably the best skill to have. IdrA is a good mechanics player and he is very solid, but he does not seem to be a good reactive player which was his downfall
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United States10774 Posts
On February 15 2010 08:15 Glaucus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2010 08:11 OneOther wrote:
you say that idra completely outclasses nony in mechanics (micro) but his three losses today prove otherwise I guess this is why you are so bad despite being a protoss player... The two games he lost Idra outmicroed Nony. It just wasn't enough. Bash him for doing a stupid CC before factory. He did completely outclass Nony as he did in their earlier match in all 4 games. Idra has always been better than Nony even when Idra was quite bad,
hahahaha nice little throwback insult there buddy. tbh nobody gives a horseshit about what you have to say that but did you know that nony steamrolled idra on his way to wcg usa title?
you are terrible btw. and what about the response to you? JF is SOOO inactive he comes back from 0-2 and beats White-Ra in straight-up games? oh wait that was probably just luck and white-ra is the far better player
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On February 15 2010 08:17 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2010 08:14 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 15 2010 08:10 MountainDewJunkie wrote:On February 15 2010 08:08 SuperArc wrote:
People laughing at Idra for losing even though he's practicing with Koreans need to look at the bigger picture.
Idra lost BECAUSE he's training with Koreans. No Korean would expect proxy gates against a rax expand, because its unimaginable. (all-ins are so rare apart from WL). I suggest you hide that CJ tag in the corner before you post such hilarious things. Idra's just soooo good that he's too good and thus falls for "foreigner" tricks. That's the power of denial. Honestly the idea that good players lose to bad players sometimes because they are bad is totally valid. when you are used to practicing with players who always do the most efficient/rational thing you might not scout something like a critical hidden expansion because "no one would be stupid enough to expand here because it is impossible to defend, etc." Nope, a better player should have a superior understanding of the game and a quicker sense. Please don't take offense to this but I just don't think you have enough grasp of Starcraft the game itself to be making arguments like that. If IdrA truly believes he outclasses NonY in every mechanical aspect then he should never do a build like CC before gas. Nor should he get raped on Outsider the way he did.
Which is exactly why I'm saying NonY prepared better and deserved to win? IdrA should not have done such greedy builds, I agree completely.
I think people are assuming I'm an angry IdrA fanboy but I am not angry. I just think it's ridiculous to think NonY is a better straight-up player than IdrA when IdrA showed that wasn't the case not too long ago and someone always does that.
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Not sure what most people think, but if Idra and Nony played 100 games...
+ Show Spoiler +I'd have 100 great games to watch.
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lol that kinda sums up most of the chat for the whole series
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On February 15 2010 08:18 PiePie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2010 08:14 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 15 2010 08:10 MountainDewJunkie wrote:On February 15 2010 08:08 SuperArc wrote:
People laughing at Idra for losing even though he's practicing with Koreans need to look at the bigger picture.
Idra lost BECAUSE he's training with Koreans. No Korean would expect proxy gates against a rax expand, because its unimaginable. (all-ins are so rare apart from WL). I suggest you hide that CJ tag in the corner before you post such hilarious things. Idra's just soooo good that he's too good and thus falls for "foreigner" tricks. That's the power of denial. Honestly the idea that good players lose to bad players sometimes because they are bad is totally valid. when you are used to practicing with players who always do the most efficient/rational thing you might not scout something like a critical hidden expansion because "no one would be stupid enough to expand here because it is impossible to defend, etc." Thats why playing reactively is so important. Thats why flash is so good, what many of the commentators were saying is that Flash (although he does cheese) uses reactive cheeses. If he scouts a 12 nex he will cheese as a response, but he will almost never just go a straight blind 8 rax or something like that. Bunker rushing because u scouted a 12 nex is a lot different than a 4 pool. Commentators have been saying for so long that he is the anti cheese and he just can react to any situation almost flawlessly. Thats why he always does his standard stuff to start each game. He knows hes good enough to react to any sort of unorthodox stuff. Yes its true Idra expected stuff, but Nony exploited that weakness. Exploiting an opponents weakness is probably the best skill to have. IdrA is a good mechanics player and he is very solid, but he does not seem to be a good reactive player which was his downfall
imo IdrA's biggest weakness here is his unadaptiveness and lack of preparation and I'm glad NonY exploited that to win.
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Personally i'd rather watch a final where the players try to out think their oppenents rather than hit buttons faster them.
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United States10774 Posts
On February 15 2010 08:20 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2010 08:17 OneOther wrote:On February 15 2010 08:14 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 15 2010 08:10 MountainDewJunkie wrote:On February 15 2010 08:08 SuperArc wrote:
People laughing at Idra for losing even though he's practicing with Koreans need to look at the bigger picture.
Idra lost BECAUSE he's training with Koreans. No Korean would expect proxy gates against a rax expand, because its unimaginable. (all-ins are so rare apart from WL). I suggest you hide that CJ tag in the corner before you post such hilarious things. Idra's just soooo good that he's too good and thus falls for "foreigner" tricks. That's the power of denial. Honestly the idea that good players lose to bad players sometimes because they are bad is totally valid. when you are used to practicing with players who always do the most efficient/rational thing you might not scout something like a critical hidden expansion because "no one would be stupid enough to expand here because it is impossible to defend, etc." Nope, a better player should have a superior understanding of the game and a quicker sense. Please don't take offense to this but I just don't think you have enough grasp of Starcraft the game itself to be making arguments like that. If IdrA truly believes he outclasses NonY in every mechanical aspect then he should never do a build like CC before gas. Nor should he get raped on Outsider the way he did. Which is exactly why I'm saying NonY prepared better and deserved to win? IdrA should not have done such greedy builds, I agree completely. I think people are assuming I'm an angry IdrA fanboy but I am not angry. I just think it's ridiculous to think NonY is a better straight-up player than IdrA when IdrA showed that wasn't the case not too long ago and someone always does that.
Fair enough. I just think the problem was that you accused people of saying NonY is the "more skilled" player than IdrA when nobody was really making that claim :o
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Duke University taught him well!
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On February 15 2010 08:21 noddyz wrote:
Personally i'd rather watch a final where the players try to out think their oppenents rather than hit buttons faster them.
I hope you aren't saying this as some sort of counter-point to me because I agree completely and have made it very clear I am pleased NonY won and feel he 100% deserves it.
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On February 15 2010 08:08 SuperArc wrote:
People laughing at Idra for losing even though he's practicing with Koreans need to look at the bigger picture.
Idra lost BECAUSE he's training with Koreans. No Korean would expect proxy gates against a rax expand, because its unimaginable. (all-ins are so rare apart from WL).
Fair and Balanced. Fox News.
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On February 15 2010 08:12 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2010 08:10 HazMat wrote:
Ignore DoctorHelvetica, he's the noob who thinks that when someone doesn't like TvT, he knows nothing about Starcraft. I don't think that. I think a lot of people who hate TvT just don't understand the match-up but I've always thought that a TvT versus bad/mediocre players is fucking terrible to watch. Don't assume you know what I think
Ok, you don't think that, you just say that?
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United States33712 Posts
On February 15 2010 08:18 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2010 08:14 Malinor wrote:On February 15 2010 08:10 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
I feel the same way here that I do about Flash vs Jaedong.
Flash is the overall better player, Jaedong outprepared him. If you really think everytime someone loses a game then they are a worse player than the player who beat them you are fucking stupid.
Therefore:
HyuN > Flash
Sen > Ret
frOzean > Bisu
etc.
NonY prepared beautifully. IdrA knows NonY is comfortable in macro games and that's what he prepared for, NonY countered that thought and did the exact opposite of what IdrA expected. Reminds me a bit of Flash vs Stork in Bacchus 2008 where Stork prepared for the Flash style build and Flash just did an all-in every game and raped Stork.
IdrA completely outclasses NonY in mechanics/multitask/macro/micro but he just wasn't prepared.
I'm not shitting on NonY or his accomplishments. It's a beautiful thing to see this level of preparation and I really like that kind of stuff. You are just lecturing people, and you do that actually before anyone actually said something about it. Therefore, you actually create your own drama. You really just sound like a smartass in this thread. Besides that, you would have to define what "a better player" means. If you take preparation, psychology and other stuff out, there is actually not much left besides raw mechanics. I am sure if both played 100 games against each other, Idra would win more. If that is what you mean by a better player, then yay. uh i don't know what you're talking about but I was posting in my own defense after people started arguments with me Better overall player, more skilled, will win the majority of times they played if they played 1000000 games, etc. Yes that is what I mean. NonY prepared better for this Bo5 and I admit that so what exactly are you arguing?
The way you are defining "overall" is misleading. Saying overall is often meant as a final declarative statement, to sum up the every other argument.
In a competitive environment where games are decided in 1, 3, or 5 game series, the better player over a large amount of games is insignificant. The winner of a 1000001 game series is irrelevant. If Nony is more adept at preparing for the standard format of competitive BW, wouldn''t he really be the "overall" better player?
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What does it matter if IdrA has better mechanics and micro and macro and whatnot? NonY is the one moving on to the semi-finals, regardless of how "outclassed" he is in every aspect of the game everytime a Bo100 is being played.
Sure, the cancelled CC was bad luck, but that's part of the game, not NonY's fault.
Anyway, great tournament so far, thanks TL!
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On February 15 2010 08:13 OneOther wrote:
People should be banned for stupidity.
Then why aren't you banned yet? Really, I just typed a reply but I just deleted it since I assume you actually watched the games you talked about. Except for Sen all these players are way worse then they used to be. They can't even touch Ret or Idra skill wise.
This damage control is hilarious.
If Peyton Manning hadn't thrown a pick 6, the Colts may have won the Super Bowl. Too bad, he did and they lost.
What? Who?
Idra may have won had he not cancelled the CC but he got rattled in his nerves and misclicked.
Well it's nice to see you agreeing with me. But be afraid since TheOne thinks people who also see it this way are stupid and need to be banned. Protoss apologists will stop at nothing...
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On February 15 2010 08:21 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2010 08:20 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 15 2010 08:17 OneOther wrote:On February 15 2010 08:14 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On February 15 2010 08:10 MountainDewJunkie wrote:On February 15 2010 08:08 SuperArc wrote:
People laughing at Idra for losing even though he's practicing with Koreans need to look at the bigger picture.
Idra lost BECAUSE he's training with Koreans. No Korean would expect proxy gates against a rax expand, because its unimaginable. (all-ins are so rare apart from WL). I suggest you hide that CJ tag in the corner before you post such hilarious things. Idra's just soooo good that he's too good and thus falls for "foreigner" tricks. That's the power of denial. Honestly the idea that good players lose to bad players sometimes because they are bad is totally valid. when you are used to practicing with players who always do the most efficient/rational thing you might not scout something like a critical hidden expansion because "no one would be stupid enough to expand here because it is impossible to defend, etc." Nope, a better player should have a superior understanding of the game and a quicker sense. Please don't take offense to this but I just don't think you have enough grasp of Starcraft the game itself to be making arguments like that. If IdrA truly believes he outclasses NonY in every mechanical aspect then he should never do a build like CC before gas. Nor should he get raped on Outsider the way he did. Which is exactly why I'm saying NonY prepared better and deserved to win? IdrA should not have done such greedy builds, I agree completely. I think people are assuming I'm an angry IdrA fanboy but I am not angry. I just think it's ridiculous to think NonY is a better straight-up player than IdrA when IdrA showed that wasn't the case not too long ago and someone always does that. Fair enough. I just think the problem was that you accused people of saying NonY is the "more skilled" player than IdrA when nobody was really making that claim :o
It's just like when HyuN beat Flash. I knew in advance some idiot was gonna say "omg see? flash isn't really that good lolololol flash fanboys even hyun is better" etc. etc.
Could have done without insulting me a few times though TT_____TT
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On February 15 2010 08:18 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2010 08:14 Malinor wrote:On February 15 2010 08:10 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
I feel the same way here that I do about Flash vs Jaedong.
Flash is the overall better player, Jaedong outprepared him. If you really think everytime someone loses a game then they are a worse player than the player who beat them you are fucking stupid.
Therefore:
HyuN > Flash
Sen > Ret
frOzean > Bisu
etc.
NonY prepared beautifully. IdrA knows NonY is comfortable in macro games and that's what he prepared for, NonY countered that thought and did the exact opposite of what IdrA expected. Reminds me a bit of Flash vs Stork in Bacchus 2008 where Stork prepared for the Flash style build and Flash just did an all-in every game and raped Stork.
IdrA completely outclasses NonY in mechanics/multitask/macro/micro but he just wasn't prepared.
I'm not shitting on NonY or his accomplishments. It's a beautiful thing to see this level of preparation and I really like that kind of stuff. You are just lecturing people, and you do that actually before anyone actually said something about it. Therefore, you actually create your own drama. You really just sound like a smartass in this thread. Besides that, you would have to define what "a better player" means. If you take preparation, psychology and other stuff out, there is actually not much left besides raw mechanics. I am sure if both played 100 games against each other, Idra would win more. If that is what you mean by a better player, then yay. uh i don't know what you're talking about but I was posting in my own defense after people started arguments with me Better overall player, more skilled, will win the majority of times they played if they played 1000000 games, etc. Yes that is what I mean. NonY prepared better for this Bo5 and I admit that so what exactly are you arguing?
'm arguing your previous comments (idiots thinking Nony will be better, before anyone said anything i.e.), not that one. My bad, that was unclear.
With all Idras tournament wins and overall domination, I am pretty sure most people will put this Bo5 into perspective.
I know what you want to say and I actually agree mostly. Your tone just sounds arrogant and as if you look down on others who think otherwise. That's what I meant.
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I love the "gaytoss" in there. :D
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On February 15 2010 08:10 Glaucus wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2010 08:01 4Servy wrote:
All dumbass fanboys can say no skilled players and blablabla, but the 4 players left here are probably the best foreingers overtime (excluding draco).
JF is inactive. Mondragon has terrible mechanics and obsolete play. Sen, no one really knows. And I bet Nony's game is also shaky. Yeah, P is easy but at higher levels not that easy. JF and Mondragon can't touch Idra. Nony won because Idra canceled his CC. All solid players are already out of the tournament. Sen didn't show any high level skill so far. Sen seems to have won vs Ret on mindgames only.
I agree that JF and Mondragon would have probably lost against IdrA - hence I like the Ro8 outcome (except that I'm a little sad how White-Ra kicked himself out). Tournaments are rarely about who wins 51 out of 100 games against his opponents, but often about risky plays paying out or being countered. It would be boring to watch every player camp and macro up just to see who hits 200/200 faster.
And like somebody else said -- if those "solid" players you're talking about are really THAT solid, they would have won. All the players that are left are great, so please stop talking them down.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://r-1.ch/nonyidraw.png)
