KT is going to get rolled. Unless Violet and Lux step up their game, KT is going to lose 0-3. Hwasin's playing his best matchup against Lux who still appears to be slumping and Violet hasn't been looking too good recently. He better hope Clam instead of Calm comes today to play.
As for Game 3, unless Kal somehow gets himself into a really, really awful slump due to Jaedong wrecking him in the MSL, Hoejja is simply going to get wrecked.
This is going to be sweet..every game here looks to be more interesting than the hite/SKT match..except maybe leta vs. fantasy. Very high probablility of an ace match..I look forward to a calm vs. flash rematch .
On January 19 2010 18:30 meegrean wrote: KT just needs to win one game out of the first 3 games.
It can be like how Jaedong OZ wins xD.
Even if that happens, I'm pretty sure Calm (or Kal) can win at least 1/4 games against flash, and giving Hero a 5% winning chance... there's still 30% for STX to win :D
Lots of white people. They smile as they're caught on camera. Forge first for Violet, fearing zerglings. Forge, then nexus, no sign of cannons as of yet.
Violet checks the backdoor, nothing there. Two stargate for Violet, but hydras are coming now. This could get ugly and fast. Only two cannons and zealots are out of position.
everytime violet wins bisu wins, everytime bisu loses violet loses, they both play with a similar style too... they even lost in a similar manner today it's like bisu's awesomeness was halved into two entities with niether part playing well lol i'm drunk
I think without any other SCVs coming, the right choice in this situation was to wait for the lings to come down and then attack the bunker together with drones and 6 ling.
Of course the ideal micro is to cut all the marines with drones without losing any, but it was already past that stage it seemed /
Why did Luxury send the second overlord in the same direction? If he didnt get this lucky with the scout, he would have lost in an even more one-sided fashion...
On January 19 2010 19:02 Xxio wrote: Why did Lux. send his lings away? the bunker wasn't close enough to hit the hatch...should have just made a sunken and defended
Because Lux is a dumbass. You literally don't need any other explanation.
Luxury didn't play half bad. He really did the best you can do with 12 hatch against BBS. It was a pretty exciting game to watch although I felt bad for poor Lux.
Violet just took a gamble that didn't pay off. Dual stargate is bad news when your opponent is doing a super fast hydra/ling break, and his zealots were way off on the other side of the map, "pressuring" Calm.
On January 19 2010 18:59 El Resplandor wrote: lol tvz..
if u go 12 hatch u are fucked u go 9 pool u are soo behind...
9pool speed prevents rax cc and scouting.
Best build imo.
a good T will add cc before scout, he finds ur 9 pool then he just block ramp with 2 scv 4 rines makes cc at main (with u guessing if he is going for 2 rax aca or the cc) or he finds ur pool speed, goes 2 rax aca into expa and the z still has to add 2-3 sunks with a bad eco to stop any break, from there u are still behind as z imo
Kal teching to stargate, Hoejja still powering drones like a whore. Forge spinning +1 for Kal. One zealot out to harass upper left. Lair incoming for Hoejja.
On January 19 2010 19:20 El Resplandor wrote: btw why everyone post here what they are watching lol seriously o,oa u guys miss half of the game by coming every second to post here lol
Live report..not everyone can watch..I sometimes follow these on my phone because I cant watch livestream on it..
On January 19 2010 19:20 El Resplandor wrote: btw why everyone post here what they are watching lol seriously o,oa u guys miss half of the game by coming every second to post here lol
It's a remnant from the age when not everyone could watch live.
Mutas popping for Hoejja. Kal sending a small force of stuff, but gets fended away by Mutas. Don't get why he ever pushed out. Hoejja poppin another hatchery at upper left.
On January 19 2010 19:20 El Resplandor wrote: btw why everyone post here what they are watching lol seriously o,oa u guys miss half of the game by coming every second to post here lol
at least it's more useful than telling other people to not post here to miss half the game when you are doing so yourself
On January 19 2010 19:20 El Resplandor wrote: btw why everyone post here what they are watching lol seriously o,oa u guys miss half of the game by coming every second to post here lol
at least it's more useful than telling other people to not post here to miss half the game when you are doing so yourself
Pure hydralisks it looks like from Hoejja. Zealots are moving out for Kal, looking to kill shit at Hoejja's third. Hoejja just chasing Kal around the map right now. Dud scarabs from Kal
Anyways, Kal taking his fourth at lower right. Hoejja trying to deny with just lings, but zealots are there to clear. Huge lurker/ling field in the middle for Hoejja. Another shuttle out for Kal.
Kal just roaming the map with his big army, looking for any hole to attack from. Hive going up for Hoejja. Kal has secured his 4th. Kal tries to attack up the huge ramp to no avail.
Scuffle up at 12 oclock, Kal shutting down the expo attempt from Hoejja. Mass ling basically at this point from Hoejja. Kal playing cannon/reaver defense at all his expos.
Hoejja uses the opportunity to expand to 12 again... and he's holding off Kal's army well. Very nice surrounds and he finally has the muscle to take the toss army head on
On January 19 2010 19:34 El Resplandor wrote: umm so ez for protoss to take a new exp :/ 10 cannons warp in no time
Whaaat? Cannons take like hours to warp, only thing is you need only 1 probe for warp them :| First you cry because you can't 9 pool vs T, now u cry because of cannons, WTF seriously if every MU is hard for you then it means that you should try improving your play, that's it.
Anyway these ling runs were very impressive by Hoejja
GG What a fucking amazing game :D, god i love kt players comming back from being so far beind, like what barracks did vs MVP Hoejja you're still awesome
AMAZING comeback from Hoejja, but it never would have been possible if Kal hadn't brought his reavers away from his expo's. Still, that was some brilliant play by Hoejja. I thought he was a goner.
Great game by Hoejja, bad game by Kal. His defense was just perfect for the longest time. It seemed like he had cannons, an HT and reavers at all his expos. The turning point was when he brought in all his reavers to take out hoejja's expo.... Overkill. If he had defended with those reavers he easily would've defended the bottom right expansion.
On January 19 2010 19:50 Roffles wrote: Damn Kal you blew it SO bad. Had you left your reavers at the expos, you coulda completely destroyed his fickle attempts at killing 6 and 4
Yea, Kal definitely should have held on to 6 at least...just left it wide open, he should have known that would happen when he was at the other end of the map. Big props to Hoejja for non-stop pressure though.
On January 19 2010 19:52 Warrior Madness wrote: Great game by Hoejja, bad game by Kal. His defense was just perfect for the longest time. It seemed like he had cannons, an HT and reavers at all his expos. The turning point was when he brought in all his reavers to take out hoejja's expo.... Overkill. If he had defended with those reavers he easily would've defended the bottom right expansion.
Actually i wouldn't say that this was a bad game by Kal, it was 1 mistake that Hoejja mercilessly took advantage of. And in veeery brutal way that turned tables totally.
It's not like progamers don't make mistakes, what was impressive here was how awesomely 1 mistake was abused by opponent.
And SC is also about abusing your opponents mistakes, the more brutally the better you are
On January 19 2010 19:56 SimonB wrote: Hoejja is very good with cracklings. I just wish he realized he could be much better at ZvP if he mixed some Ultras in there!
Then he wouldn't have as much gas for defilers.....
On January 19 2010 19:56 SimonB wrote: Hoejja is very good with cracklings. I just wish he realized he could be much better at ZvP if he mixed some Ultras in there!
Then he wouldn't have as much gas for defilers.....
This is one of the most common mistakes most protoss progamers make. The reason why protoss progamers forget to leave their reavers in their expos is that they are at 200/200 and most of their army consists of zealots. When this happens, the first thing that comes up in the protoss player's mind is "I need to make more archons and high templars for my big ball"
However the protoss player usually start getting insecure at this point. They feel like suiciding zealots might give the zerg even the smallest chance. And here comes the big mistake. The protoss player believes it would be a better choice to take ALL his units and try attacking the Zerg, and try to deal alot of damage to the zerg and make sure his army doesn't get torn to pieces.
However the protoss player usually overextends himself and ironically gives the Zerg player a chance to create chaos in the game using drops/defilers/cracklings
This is one of the most common mistakes most protoss progamers make. The reason why protoss progamers forget to leave their reavers in their expos is that they are at 200/200 and most of their army consists of zealots. When this happens, the first thing that comes up in the protoss player's mind is "I need to make more archons and high templars for my big ball"
However the protoss player usually start getting insecure at this point. They feel like suiciding zealots might give the zerg even the smallest chance. And here comes the big mistake. The protoss player believes it would be a better choice to take ALL his units and try attacking the Zerg, and try to deal alot of damage to the zerg and make sure his army doesn't get torn to pieces.
However the protoss player usually overextends himself and ironically gives the Zerg player a chance to create chaos in the game using drops/defilers/cracklings
This is one of the most common mistakes most protoss progamers make. The reason why protoss progamers forget to leave their reavers in their expos is that they are at 200/200 and most of their army consists of zealots. When this happens, the first thing that comes up in the protoss player's mind is "I need to make more archons and high templars for my big ball"
However the protoss player usually start getting insecure at this point. They feel like suiciding zealots might give the zerg even the smallest chance. And here comes the big mistake. The protoss player believes it would be a better choice to take ALL his units and try attacking the Zerg, and try to deal alot of damage to the zerg and make sure his army doesn't get torn to pieces.
However the protoss player usually overextends himself and ironically gives the Zerg player a chance to create chaos in the game using drops/defilers/cracklings
On January 19 2010 20:10 MrHoon wrote: BTW can people recap games 1 and 2 for me? I wasn't here and I heard 'cheese'
Violet goes dual stargate and pressures with first 4 zeals. Calm does a hydra/ling break against 2 cannons while the 4 zeals are on far side of HBR taking out the zerg third. Violet gg's.
Hwasin goes center BBS while Lux 12-hatches. Lux pulls a gazillion drones, kills a marine or two but loses drones. Hwasin finishes a bunker out of range of the natural hatchery. Lux bypasses with a bunch (8? 10?) of lings. Hwasin walks into the main and kills all but 2 drones, then pulls alls his SCVs to escape the lings. Hwasin attacks Lux's main with all his units, Lux can't hold it off and loses both his remaining workers, gg.
On January 19 2010 20:14 Warrior Madness wrote: Umm.... How did by.hero lose so quickly? I only caught his opening 2 hatch and I then I got up and made a sandwhich.
Flash did a timing attack, there were no sunkens for hero...
On January 19 2010 20:14 Warrior Madness wrote: Umm.... How did by.hero lose so quickly? I only caught his opening 2 hatch and I then I got up and made a sandwhich.
On January 19 2010 20:14 Warrior Madness wrote: Umm.... How did by.hero lose so quickly? I only caught his opening 2 hatch and I then I got up and made a sandwhich.
looked like he went for a timing attack before mutas popped and hero was caught with unmorphed creeps
On January 19 2010 20:14 Warrior Madness wrote: Umm.... How did by.hero lose so quickly? I only caught his opening 2 hatch and I then I got up and made a sandwhich.
On January 19 2010 20:16 MrHoon wrote: Flash realized how little zerglings Hero had and just did a timing attack because he scanned that the creep colonies were JUST built
nah it was a planned bust, he cut scvs for extra marines and he was already headed out when he scanned the colonies
On January 19 2010 20:16 MrHoon wrote: Flash realized how little zerglings Hero had and just did a timing attack because he scanned that the creep colonies were JUST built
nah it was a planned bust, he cut scvs for extra marines and he was already headed out when he scanned the colonies
On January 19 2010 20:16 MrHoon wrote: Flash realized how little zerglings Hero had and just did a timing attack because he scanned that the creep colonies were JUST built
nah it was a planned bust, he cut scvs for extra marines and he was already headed out when he scanned the colonies
No wonder the commentators started getting louder when the CC stopped blinking lol..
On January 19 2010 20:16 MrHoon wrote: Flash realized how little zerglings Hero had and just did a timing attack because he scanned that the creep colonies were JUST built
nah it was a planned bust, he cut scvs for extra marines and he was already headed out when he scanned the colonies
Idra if you would be so kind as to answer - in your opinion how much does it help an upcoming opponent (obviously Jaedong in this case) to see one extra recent game of a player in the correct matchup on the right map? Namely Flash's TvZ on FS, a map he's played a lot of (televised) TvZ on lately.
I'm always curious as to what the pros think about the impact of one extra game in terms of preparation and study.
On January 19 2010 20:16 MrHoon wrote: Flash realized how little zerglings Hero had and just did a timing attack because he scanned that the creep colonies were JUST built
nah it was a planned bust, he cut scvs for extra marines and he was already headed out when he scanned the colonies
Idra if you would be so kind as to answer - in your opinion how much does it help an upcoming opponent (obviously Jaedong in this case) to see one extra recent game of a player in the correct matchup on the right map? Namely Flash's TvZ on FS, a map he's played a lot of (televised) TvZ on lately.
I'm always curious as to what the pros think about the impact of one extra game in terms of preparation and study.
all depends on what you do. it can be to your advantage if you play mind games well, like the kwanro series set flash up really well for the finals, especially given their osl heartbreak game, cuz jaedong is gonna be very nervous about cheesy stuff. that makes flash's standard style alot stronger.
given that fighting spirit is a pretty standard map for tvz this game wont have any affect on the finals, cuz either flash is gonna play standard on it in the finals and jd already knows what that looks like, or flash will have some weird build that he obviously wont show here anyway.
On January 19 2010 20:16 MrHoon wrote: Flash realized how little zerglings Hero had and just did a timing attack because he scanned that the creep colonies were JUST built
nah it was a planned bust, he cut scvs for extra marines and he was already headed out when he scanned the colonies
Idra if you would be so kind as to answer - in your opinion how much does it help an upcoming opponent (obviously Jaedong in this case) to see one extra recent game of a player in the correct matchup on the right map? Namely Flash's TvZ on FS, a map he's played a lot of (televised) TvZ on lately.
I'm always curious as to what the pros think about the impact of one extra game in terms of preparation and study.
all depends on what you do. it can be to your advantage if you play mind games well, like the kwanro series set flash up really well for the finals, especially given their osl heartbreak game, cuz jaedong is gonna be very nervous about cheesy stuff. that makes flash's standard style alot stronger.
given that fighting spirit is a pretty standard map for tvz this game wont have any affect on the finals, cuz either flash is gonna play standard on it in the finals and jd already knows what that looks like, or flash will have some weird build that he obviously wont show here anyway.
On January 19 2010 20:16 MrHoon wrote: Flash realized how little zerglings Hero had and just did a timing attack because he scanned that the creep colonies were JUST built
nah it was a planned bust, he cut scvs for extra marines and he was already headed out when he scanned the colonies
Idra if you would be so kind as to answer - in your opinion how much does it help an upcoming opponent (obviously Jaedong in this case) to see one extra recent game of a player in the correct matchup on the right map? Namely Flash's TvZ on FS, a map he's played a lot of (televised) TvZ on lately.
I'm always curious as to what the pros think about the impact of one extra game in terms of preparation and study.
all depends on what you do. it can be to your advantage if you play mind games well, like the kwanro series set flash up really well for the finals, especially given their osl heartbreak game, cuz jaedong is gonna be very nervous about cheesy stuff. that makes flash's standard style alot stronger.
given that fighting spirit is a pretty standard map for tvz this game wont have any affect on the finals, cuz either flash is gonna play standard on it in the finals and jd already knows what that looks like, or flash will have some weird build that he obviously wont show here anyway.
This is a series KT would NEVER have won last season. Under no circumstances whatsoever would KT have had the sheer willpower to pull out a series in which:
1. they were crushed in the first two games 2. an inferior player (Hoejja) is down a lot to a superior player (Kal) on a tough map for the inferior player in the third game 3. Flash has important individual league games to prepare for
What I like about that game is it probably gives him just a little extra bit of a chance in the MSL against Jaedong. The more cheese he does beforehand, the more likely JD will be paranoid and go for really safe builds.
Flash is unbeatable.... If you go three hatch he kills your 3rd expo with his aggresive rines. If you go two hatch he will overwhelm you with his midgame push. And while you're busy thinking of a clever strategy to beat him with using 2 hatch or 3 hatch mutas he will bunker rush you.
why is everyone bitching about imba. Calm threw away the fucking game by sitting and doing absolutely nothing as the bunker went up. Flash had ONE GODDAMN MARINE. pull more than 2 drones and he holds that off easily -.-
On January 19 2010 20:35 Chen wrote: why is everyone bitching about imba. Calm threw away the fucking game by sitting and doing absolutely nothing as the bunker went up.
this
By all the whiner's logic
2 Drones should >>>>>>>> A bunker, 2 scvs, 2 marines
On January 19 2010 20:34 Warrior Madness wrote: Flash is unbeatable.... If you go three hatch he kills your 3rd expo with his aggresive rines. If you go two hatch he will overwhelm you with his midgame push. And while you're busy thinking of a clever strategy to beat him with using 2 hatch or 3 hatch mutas he will bunker rush you.
On January 19 2010 20:35 Roffles wrote: Flash with daily MVP. If there's anyone who should have gotten the award, it shoulda been Kal. Daily MVP for KT should be Kal.
On January 19 2010 20:35 Chen wrote: why is everyone bitching about imba. Calm threw away the fucking game by sitting and doing absolutely nothing as the bunker went up.
this
By all the whiner's logic
2 Drones should >>>>>>>> A bunker, 2 scvs, 2 marines
the thing is that even if u manage to stop the bunker u lose like 4 (if not all) of ur drones and its basically gg. Go try to micro 8 drones vs 4 marines and 2 scv's w/o losing one...
On January 19 2010 20:36 pripple wrote: oh how i hope JD 4pools Flash every game in the MSL finals, tired of this bunkershit ;<
You should be tired of players playing greedy. If Jaedong saw a Terran doing a 14 CC or a Protoss doing a 12 Nexus, you would bet he would just all-in speedlings. But I'm sure you wouldn't complain about that...
I want KT to send Flash first every game. I want to see all teams prepare build against Flash and maybe he will still roll over them. now that would be something
I don't think 12 Hatch is "greedy" per say (because Zerg is definitely behind if it fails) but you obviously need to be better prepared for Bunker rushes if you're going to 12 Hatch all the time. Calm's reaction was surprisingly mediocre for such a great player....
On January 19 2010 20:35 Chen wrote: why is everyone bitching about imba. Calm threw away the fucking game by sitting and doing absolutely nothing as the bunker went up.
this
By all the whiner's logic
2 Drones should >>>>>>>> A bunker, 2 scvs, 2 marines
the thing is that even if u manage to stop the bunker u lose like 4 (if not all) of ur drones and its basically gg. Go try to micro 8 drones vs 4 marines and 2 scv's w/o losing one...
PLEASE SHUT UP AND WATCH THE GODDAMN GAME. FLASH HAD 1 MARINE AND 2 SCV'S. He added 1 marine about when the bunker finished. Calm pulls 5-6 drones, unless he displays shit micro he doesnt lose anything other than mining time and is safe. wtf is this 4 marine bullshit
On January 19 2010 20:36 pripple wrote: oh how i hope JD 4pools Flash every game in the MSL finals, tired of this bunkershit ;<
You should be tired of players playing greedy. If Jaedong saw a Terran doing a 14 CC or a Protoss doing a 12 Nexus, you would bet he would just all-in speedlings. But I'm sure you wouldn't complain about that...
And thats is basicly all in dont you se the diffrence here? 7-8 rax not all in. Failed 9 pool wayyyy behind.
On January 19 2010 20:41 Waxangel wrote: oh flash was lucky with the scout, which helped a ton I guess
Yeah, though to his credit he did a great job seeing the Hatch without it being seen. Sure you'd expect pros to get that right every time but that definitely doesn't happen in practice.
On January 19 2010 20:35 Chen wrote: why is everyone bitching about imba. Calm threw away the fucking game by sitting and doing absolutely nothing as the bunker went up.
this
By all the whiner's logic
2 Drones should >>>>>>>> A bunker, 2 scvs, 2 marines
the thing is that even if u manage to stop the bunker u lose like 4 (if not all) of ur drones and its basically gg. Go try to micro 8 drones vs 4 marines and 2 scv's w/o losing one...
PLEASE SHUT UP AND WATCH THE GODDAMN GAME. FLASH HAD 1 MARINE AND 2 SCV'S. He added 1 marine about when the bunker finished. Calm pulls 5-6 drones, unless he displays shit micro he doesnt lose anything and is safe. wtf is this 4 marine bullshit
This guy is whining so much that it really is getting tiring.
On January 19 2010 20:41 radadaundandan wrote: Calm: Hi, I am a 2 hatch muta superzerg! I shall own you with my muta micro! Flash: Have a nice bunker. Bye.
Yeah so true, Calm was 2-hatching every-game in OSL semis, Flash now shown him what does Calm need to fix in his play
On January 19 2010 20:34 integral wrote: I just realized WINNER'S LEAGUE IS NEXT ROUND
and flash is raping everyone
You cant win WL with just one player.
Yeah, cuz you would need teamwork. The WL system is setup so that if one person keeps winning that another could... oh wait...
omfg I can't wait for Flash to 4-0 the crap outta everyone.
No team in last year's playoffs was just a one man team. CJ had its whole team, KT had Lux/Flash, Oz JD/Hiya, SKT Bisu/fantasy/Canata
I would be really curious to see what would happen if Flash played WL by himself (as in literally one man team) with no individual leagues to worry about. Could he go 6-5? Even better? Would that not be the most ridiculous thing to watch?
On January 19 2010 20:34 integral wrote: I just realized WINNER'S LEAGUE IS NEXT ROUND
and flash is raping everyone
You cant win WL with just one player.
That's like the definition of winner's league.
On January 19 2010 20:39 darktreb wrote:
On January 19 2010 20:34 SuperArc wrote:
On January 19 2010 20:34 integral wrote: I just realized WINNER'S LEAGUE IS NEXT ROUND
and flash is raping everyone
You cant win WL with just one player.
Actually I'm pretty sure it's the only thing you can win with just one player.
On January 19 2010 20:40 Creationism wrote:
On January 19 2010 20:34 SuperArc wrote:
On January 19 2010 20:34 integral wrote: I just realized WINNER'S LEAGUE IS NEXT ROUND
and flash is raping everyone
You cant win WL with just one player.
Yeah, cuz you would need teamwork. The WL system is setup so that if one person keeps winning that another could... oh wait...
omfg I can't wait for Flash to 4-0 the crap outta everyone.
No team in last year's playoffs was just a one man team. CJ had its whole team, KT had Lux/Flash, Oz JD/Hiya, SKT Bisu/fantasy/Canata
I would be really curious to see what would happen if Flash played WL by himself (as in literally one man team) with no individual leagues to worry about. Could he go 6-5? Even better? Would that not be the most ridiculous thing to watch?
On January 19 2010 20:34 integral wrote: I just realized WINNER'S LEAGUE IS NEXT ROUND
and flash is raping everyone
You cant win WL with just one player.
That's like the definition of winner's league.
On January 19 2010 20:39 darktreb wrote:
On January 19 2010 20:34 SuperArc wrote:
On January 19 2010 20:34 integral wrote: I just realized WINNER'S LEAGUE IS NEXT ROUND
and flash is raping everyone
You cant win WL with just one player.
Actually I'm pretty sure it's the only thing you can win with just one player.
On January 19 2010 20:40 Creationism wrote:
On January 19 2010 20:34 SuperArc wrote:
On January 19 2010 20:34 integral wrote: I just realized WINNER'S LEAGUE IS NEXT ROUND
and flash is raping everyone
You cant win WL with just one player.
Yeah, cuz you would need teamwork. The WL system is setup so that if one person keeps winning that another could... oh wait...
omfg I can't wait for Flash to 4-0 the crap outta everyone.
No team in last year's playoffs was just a one man team. CJ had its whole team, KT had Lux/Flash, Oz JD/Hiya, SKT Bisu/fantasy/Canata
I would be really curious to see what would happen if Flash played WL by himself (as in literally one man team) with no individual leagues to worry about. Could he go 6-5? Even better? Would that not be the most ridiculous thing to watch?
what would that be like? if Flash gets 4 lives thats so imba, in the other team just gets 4 chances to snipe Flash.... I'd expect alot of wins but a bad overall record. alot of teams can win in they have 4 shots at him with all just sniping
On January 19 2010 20:34 integral wrote: I just realized WINNER'S LEAGUE IS NEXT ROUND
and flash is raping everyone
You cant win WL with just one player.
That's like the definition of winner's league.
On January 19 2010 20:39 darktreb wrote:
On January 19 2010 20:34 SuperArc wrote:
On January 19 2010 20:34 integral wrote: I just realized WINNER'S LEAGUE IS NEXT ROUND
and flash is raping everyone
You cant win WL with just one player.
Actually I'm pretty sure it's the only thing you can win with just one player.
On January 19 2010 20:40 Creationism wrote:
On January 19 2010 20:34 SuperArc wrote:
On January 19 2010 20:34 integral wrote: I just realized WINNER'S LEAGUE IS NEXT ROUND
and flash is raping everyone
You cant win WL with just one player.
Yeah, cuz you would need teamwork. The WL system is setup so that if one person keeps winning that another could... oh wait...
omfg I can't wait for Flash to 4-0 the crap outta everyone.
No team in last year's playoffs was just a one man team. CJ had its whole team, KT had Lux/Flash, Oz JD/Hiya, SKT Bisu/fantasy/Canata
I would be really curious to see what would happen if Flash played WL by himself (as in literally one man team) with no individual leagues to worry about. Could he go 6-5? Even better? Would that not be the most ridiculous thing to watch?
what would that be like? if Flash gets 4 lives thats so imba, in the other team just gets 4 chances to snipe Flash.... I'd expect alot of wins but a bad overall record. alot of teams can win in they have 4 shots at him with all just sniping
I mean if he gets just "one life".
I think realistically he can win maybe 2 or 3. There are teams where even if they snipe I don't think can beat him no matter what.
On January 19 2010 20:57 Hinanawi wrote: lololo, the best player in the world beats a couple Zergs, and everyone's up in arms about TvZ imba. At the same time, (SKT vs hite) + Show Spoiler +
three ZvPs are played tonight with Zerg winning them all.
Maybe Zerg players just need to learn how to mass speedlings like Kwanro. Hey, it worked against Light.
Eh... it wasn't that he won. It's just the effortless manner in which he won. Although to be honest, he played brilliantly, and in both games, his opponents made some key mistakes.
On January 19 2010 20:57 Hinanawi wrote: lololo, the best player in the world beats a couple Zergs, and everyone's up in arms about TvZ imba. At the same time, (SKT vs hite) + Show Spoiler +
three ZvPs are played tonight with Zerg winning them all.
Maybe Zerg players just need to learn how to mass speedlings like Kwanro. Hey, it worked against Light.
Eh... it wasn't that he won. It's just the effortless manner in which he won. Although to be honest, he played brilliantly, and in both games, his opponents made some key mistakes.
Yeah, fair enough. I feel the same way watching ZvP sometimes, but what can you do, it's how Blizzard made the game.
3 Terrans won TvZ. 2 Zergs won PvZ, lol all the imbalances played out?
In all seriousness though all you ever hear when flash plays in complaints. Remember the OSL semis?
"Omg so gay Flash is turtling lategame with a billion tanks" "Omg so gay Flash wins with a midgame push" vs Jaedong "Omg so gay Flash denying 3rd" "Omg so gay bunker rush"
More proof that the gaming community is ridiculously ungrateful. If he wanted to bunker rush then so wat? Let the man bunker rush =P
On January 19 2010 21:17 SubtleArt wrote: 3 Terrans won TvZ. 2 Zergs won PvZ, lol all the imbalances played out?
In all seriousness though all you ever hear when flash plays in complaints. Remember the OSL semis?
"Omg so gay Flash is turtling lategame with a billion tanks" "Omg so gay Flash wins with a midgame push" vs Jaedong "Omg so gay Flash denying 3rd" "Omg so gay bunker rush"
More proof that the gaming community is ridiculously ungrateful. If he wanted to bunker rush then so wat? Let the man bunker rush =P
*JD Fan here btw*
You haven't noticed this trend for the past month?
On January 19 2010 21:17 SubtleArt wrote: 3 Terrans won TvZ. 2 Zergs won PvZ, lol all the imbalances played out?
In all seriousness though all you ever hear when flash plays in complaints. Remember the OSL semis?
"Omg so gay Flash is turtling lategame with a billion tanks" "Omg so gay Flash wins with a midgame push" vs Jaedong "Omg so gay Flash denying 3rd" "Omg so gay bunker rush"
More proof that the gaming community is ridiculously ungrateful. If he wanted to bunker rush then so wat? Let the man bunker rush =P
*JD Fan here btw*
Did people seriously call Flash gay for denying thirds?
On January 19 2010 21:17 SubtleArt wrote: 3 Terrans won TvZ. 2 Zergs won PvZ, lol all the imbalances played out?
In all seriousness though all you ever hear when flash plays in complaints. Remember the OSL semis?
"Omg so gay Flash is turtling lategame with a billion tanks" "Omg so gay Flash wins with a midgame push" vs Jaedong "Omg so gay Flash denying 3rd" "Omg so gay bunker rush"
More proof that the gaming community is ridiculously ungrateful. If he wanted to bunker rush then so wat? Let the man bunker rush =P
*JD Fan here btw*
Did people seriously call Flash gay for denying thirds?
On January 19 2010 22:08 MaGic~PhiL wrote: jesus christ.. after lookin into this t hread i was sure i would get at least that one right.. I come back and see.. 0-2 turning into 3-2
gotta be kidding T_T
and SKT fucked up as well man
:D
i feel ur pain man, i went 0-2 aswell tonight. i really thought stx could win this... and they almost did. screw u kal!
Just watched Calm vs Flash. Is it me or Calm just failed miserably? It doesn't seem that Flash has done anything special in this game; but did Calm really tried to defend a bunker rush with 2 drones? Don"t get that.
On January 20 2010 00:43 Biff The Understudy wrote: Just watched Calm vs Flash. Is it me or Calm just failed miserably? It doesn't seem that Flash has done anything special in this game; but did Calm really tried to defend a bunker rush with 2 drones? Don"t get that.
Definitely. I don't think I've seen such a horrible response to a bunker rush in a while.
You have to wonder if Flash is getting into their heads. You pull too many drones and you lose them to marines, you pull too few and you lose your natural.
Anyone else amused that, despite taking a few losses and skipping a match vs Woonjin, Flash has come out of 2 rounds of proleague with exactly 22 wins, averaging 1 win per match?
On January 19 2010 23:27 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Terran is bullshit. That's all I have to say.
PS Try going against a Terran without a 12 hatch. You'll die miserably.
ROFL i can't stop laughing of this post
i'm laughing at how ignorant your post is lol. TvZ is too fucking imba, the guy said nothing funny
It's funny how Flash is so skilled he manages to make a whole match up looks unfair. I have a little game for you though, compare the tvz win ratio of this season with, and without Flash. Then, may be, after a lot of reflexion, you might be able to see that while FvZ is indeed imba, TvZ is in fact rather fair.
On January 19 2010 21:17 SubtleArt wrote: 3 Terrans won TvZ. 2 Zergs won PvZ, lol all the imbalances played out?
In all seriousness though all you ever hear when flash plays in complaints. Remember the OSL semis?
"Omg so gay Flash is turtling lategame with a billion tanks" "Omg so gay Flash wins with a midgame push" vs Jaedong "Omg so gay Flash denying 3rd" "Omg so gay bunker rush"
More proof that the gaming community is ridiculously ungrateful. If he wanted to bunker rush then so wat? Let the man bunker rush =P
*JD Fan here btw*
Did people seriously call Flash gay for denying thirds?
I dont think theres been anything Flash hasn't been called gay for.
On January 19 2010 23:27 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Terran is bullshit. That's all I have to say.
PS Try going against a Terran without a 12 hatch. You'll die miserably.
ROFL i can't stop laughing of this post
i'm laughing at how ignorant your post is lol. TvZ is too fucking imba, the guy said nothing funny
Muta micro mostly negates midgame disadvantage. Its gotten so good now. You can stall terran for quite a while, and once defiler tech is out I think TvZ is one of the most balanced matchups
On January 19 2010 23:27 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Terran is bullshit. That's all I have to say.
PS Try going against a Terran without a 12 hatch. You'll die miserably.
ROFL i can't stop laughing of this post
i'm laughing at how ignorant your post is lol. TvZ is too fucking imba, the guy said nothing funny
Muta micro mostly negates midgame disadvantage. Its gotten so good now. You can stall terran for quite a while, and once defiler tech is out I think TvZ is one of the most balanced matchups
On January 19 2010 23:27 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Terran is bullshit. That's all I have to say.
PS Try going against a Terran without a 12 hatch. You'll die miserably.
ROFL i can't stop laughing of this post
i'm laughing at how ignorant your post is lol. TvZ is too fucking imba, the guy said nothing funny
Muta micro mostly negates midgame disadvantage. Its gotten so good now. You can stall terran for quite a while, and once defiler tech is out I think TvZ is one of the most balanced matchups
PHAHAHAHAHAHAH
pahahaha indeed a unit with infinite mana that makes you invincible and makes all the enemy units die in one hit and he calls it balanced.
On January 19 2010 23:27 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Terran is bullshit. That's all I have to say.
PS Try going against a Terran without a 12 hatch. You'll die miserably.
ROFL i can't stop laughing of this post
i'm laughing at how ignorant your post is lol. TvZ is too fucking imba, the guy said nothing funny
Nate MSL TvZ: 16-12 (57.1%) [ Games ] ZvP: 8-9 (47.1%) [ Games ] PvT: 8-9 (47.1%) [ Games ]
Ever OSL TvZ: 14-18 (43.8%) [ Games ] ZvP: 18-20 (47.4%) [ Games ] PvT: 15-13 (53.6%) [ Games ]
SPL 09/10 TvZ: 63-46 (57.8%) [ Games ] ZvP: 66-52 (55.9%) [ Games ] PvT: 38-31 (55.1%) [ Games ]
Total TvZ: 93-76 (55.0%) [ Games ] ZvP: 92-81 (53.2%) [ Games ] PvT: 61-53 (53.5%) [ Games ]
Without Flash
Nate MSL TvZ: 9-10 (57.1%) [ Games ] ZvP: 8-9 (47.1%) [ Games ] PvT: 8-6 (47.1%) [ Games ]
Ever OSL TvZ: 5-17 (43.8%) [ Games ] ZvP: 18-20 (47.4%) [ Games ] PvT: 13-10 (53.6%) [ Games ]
SPL 09/10 TvZ: 54-45 (57.8%) [ Games ] ZvP: 66-52 (55.9%) [ Games ] PvT: 37-30 (55.1%) [ Games ]
Total TvZ: 68-72 (48.6%) [ Games ] ZvP: 92-81 (53.2%) [ Games ] PvT: 58-46 (55.8%) [ Games ]
DO NOTE. Do not run away with the Flashless stats as a true comparison would be to remove the best zerg and best protoss as well but I'm not going to bother with that. The result would still be similar to what is exhibited above but less markedly so. What we can say for certain however is that all Terrans who are not Flash are doing a relatively poor job this season. This is evidenced above and in that Flash was the only terran to make it into the Semi's (and he did it twice that little outlier that he is).
TvZ is NOT imba however FvZ makes it seem like it is right now (25-4 86.2%).
On January 19 2010 23:27 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Terran is bullshit. That's all I have to say.
PS Try going against a Terran without a 12 hatch. You'll die miserably.
ROFL i can't stop laughing of this post
i'm laughing at how ignorant your post is lol. TvZ is too fucking imba, the guy said nothing funny
Muta micro mostly negates midgame disadvantage. Its gotten so good now. You can stall terran for quite a while, and once defiler tech is out I think TvZ is one of the most balanced matchups
PHAHAHAHAHAHAH
pahahaha indeed a unit with infinite mana that makes you invincible and makes all the enemy units die in one hit and he calls it balanced.
Let's not forget about ultras, that you absolutly have to irriadiate to have a shot at killing, and one fucking single irradiated ultra can take out around 50 rins before dying.
On January 19 2010 23:27 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Terran is bullshit. That's all I have to say.
PS Try going against a Terran without a 12 hatch. You'll die miserably.
ROFL i can't stop laughing of this post
i'm laughing at how ignorant your post is lol. TvZ is too fucking imba, the guy said nothing funny
Muta micro mostly negates midgame disadvantage. Its gotten so good now. You can stall terran for quite a while, and once defiler tech is out I think TvZ is one of the most balanced matchups
PHAHAHAHAHAHAH
pahahaha indeed a unit with infinite mana that makes you invincible and makes all the enemy units die in one hit and he calls it balanced.
Let's not forget about ultras, that you absolutly have to irriadiate to have a shot at killing, and one fucking single irradiated ultra can take out around 50 rins before dying.
Not to mention that instead of making the Ultras weaker, irradiate makes them stroinger vs MnM
Flying units that kill every Zerg unit except ultras in one shot that cost so little it's lime it's free, more free things that are faster than anything else that come with free mini nukes, infinite ranges units that do a million damage, instant map hack, etc etc.
On January 19 2010 23:27 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Terran is bullshit. That's all I have to say.
PS Try going against a Terran without a 12 hatch. You'll die miserably.
ROFL i can't stop laughing of this post
i'm laughing at how ignorant your post is lol. TvZ is too fucking imba, the guy said nothing funny
Muta micro mostly negates midgame disadvantage. Its gotten so good now. You can stall terran for quite a while, and once defiler tech is out I think TvZ is one of the most balanced matchups
PHAHAHAHAHAHAH
pahahaha indeed a unit with infinite mana that makes you invincible and makes all the enemy units die in one hit and he calls it balanced.
Let's not forget about ultras, that you absolutly have to irriadiate to have a shot at killing, and one fucking single irradiated ultra can take out around 50 rins before dying.
Or, if you have more than 10 tanks, which seems to be a fun terran tactic now, you'll one shot ultras, even under swarm.
On January 19 2010 23:27 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Terran is bullshit. That's all I have to say.
PS Try going against a Terran without a 12 hatch. You'll die miserably.
ROFL i can't stop laughing of this post
i'm laughing at how ignorant your post is lol. TvZ is too fucking imba, the guy said nothing funny
Blah blah blah There are any objective facts? except "Terran is bullshit" and "TvZ is too fucking imba"
Its common knowledge. Just like how we know air exists but its very difficult to prove that it does. Analysis of matchups cannot be objective unless we say obvious things like Drones have 40 health
On January 19 2010 23:27 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Terran is bullshit. That's all I have to say.
PS Try going against a Terran without a 12 hatch. You'll die miserably.
ROFL i can't stop laughing of this post
i'm laughing at how ignorant your post is lol. TvZ is too fucking imba, the guy said nothing funny
Muta micro mostly negates midgame disadvantage. Its gotten so good now. You can stall terran for quite a while, and once defiler tech is out I think TvZ is one of the most balanced matchups
On the contrary, Anti-Muta micro has gotten very good.
Yes Muta Stack is a big advantage to Zergs and allows stalling for hive. Just the FACT that you have to stall Terran to reach a tech where the matchup becomes 50/50 again just shows you that its not a balanced matchup overall. Not to mention that this doesn't apply when Terrans go mech
Flash vs Calm (previous one) showed us that Terrans can just mass tanks and kill everything under swarm with splash.
So recent meta-game shows us that even defiler tech/ultras can't bring TvZ back to 50/50 anymore
lol one game by the best terran late game ever against a zerg really not known for great late game vT proves that defiler ultra is now obsolete. Solid post Azure
@Revy: Recent statistics alone do not prove anything. First of all, you're leaving out the skill level of all the players and the map pool. Secondly, statistics as small as 30 or 40 games don't mean crap, this game is 10 years old, you have to look at the bigger picture with a large sample amount.
Metagame will always change, you can't look at recent data alone, you have to look at older data as well to understand the matchup better. You have to consider who played who, and under what conditions.
Why can't you just admit TvZ is the most imbalanced matchup ever? And always will be
On January 20 2010 03:11 Vasoline73 wrote: lol one game by the best terran late game ever against a zerg really not known for great late game vT proves that defiler ultra is now obsolete. Solid post Azure
Way to jump to assumptions. First of all, its not just that one game, Terrans have been massing tanks recently to fight off hive tech. And yes, I do know Flash has good TvZ and Calm has bad ZvT. I've always been saying TvZ was imba even before this match, I wasn't basing it off of this match
Man Hoejja played BRILLIANTLY. I thought he was def gonna lose when Kal secured 6 with reavers. Way to claw it back with drops freaking EVERYWHERE, sick plagues, sick micro. Hoejja was just a massive massive beast that game. Awesome.
Flash on the other hand needs to be in jail. I don't care if he's underage, rape is rape.
This entire series, except for game 3, was a single ridiculous cheesefest. Come to think of it, you'd think people wouldn't go FE against Flash all the time. The set 5-scenario has happened WAY to many times lately. Flash is getting it way to easy atm...
On January 20 2010 03:11 Vasoline73 wrote: lol one game by the best terran late game ever against a zerg really not known for great late game vT proves that defiler ultra is now obsolete. Solid post Azure
Way to jump to assumptions. First of all, its not just that one game, Terrans have been massing tanks recently to fight off hive tech. And yes, I do know Flash has good TvZ and Calm has bad ZvT. I've always been saying TvZ was imba even before this match, I wasn't basing it off of this match
Are all T's arrogant and denying?
What's the use? Are you trying to justify a hate towards Terrans beating Zergs?
Regardless of whether or not a MU is imbalanced, the topic should never be brought up as an argument.
On January 20 2010 04:10 StorkHwaiting wrote: Why isn't anyone talking about Hoejja's brilliant play in game 3? :<
Without him, Flash never would have even had a chance to play. And he played phenomenal...
I'm probably a bit biased but it seems to me like hoejja got a little lucky catching kal's army out of position and was just able to snipe nexus' really quick.
That game I felt Kal definitely outplayed Hoejja but just blew it with a few mistakes :\
On January 19 2010 20:34 Warrior Madness wrote: Flash is unbeatable.... If you go three hatch into guardians like an idiot he kills your 3rd expo with his aggresive rines.
On January 20 2010 04:10 StorkHwaiting wrote: Why isn't anyone talking about Hoejja's brilliant play in game 3? :<
Without him, Flash never would have even had a chance to play. And he played phenomenal...
I'm probably a bit biased but it seems to me like hoejja got a little lucky catching kal's army out of position and was just able to snipe nexus' really quick.
That's like saying a terran gets lucky when a zerg leaves his expos with 2 sunkens and no lurkers defilers or nydus
Lol, Flash entering the WL being on fire this much is scary. This is going to be scarier than the JD from the times of JaedongOz. I think current Flash is harder to beat than JD at that time, and his supporting cast is way better than what the Dong had.
On January 19 2010 23:27 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Terran is bullshit. That's all I have to say.
PS Try going against a Terran without a 12 hatch. You'll die miserably.
ROFL i can't stop laughing of this post
i'm laughing at how ignorant your post is lol. TvZ is too fucking imba, the guy said nothing funny
Blah blah blah There are any objective facts? except "Terran is bullshit" and "TvZ is too fucking imba"
Its common knowledge. Just like how we know air exists but its very difficult to prove that it does. Analysis of matchups cannot be objective unless we say obvious things like Drones have 40 health
What's common knowledge here is that you're just a sad troll. But then again, this could just be me stating my own opinion as an acknowledged fact.
On January 20 2010 04:37 RamenStyle wrote: Lol, Flash entering the WL being on fire this much is scary. This is going to be scarier than the JD from the times of JaedongOz. I think current Flash is harder to beat than JD at that time, and his supporting cast is way better than what the Dong had.
Hiya was the fourth best player in the WL (after Jaedong, Bisu and Flash). Whats with "all the Oz has no good players apart from JD"? WL Hiya > KT
On January 20 2010 03:11 AzureEye wrote: @Revy: Recent statistics alone do not prove anything. First of all, you're leaving out the skill level of all the players and the map pool. Secondly, statistics as small as 30 or 40 games don't mean crap, this game is 10 years old, you have to look at the bigger picture with a large sample amount.
Metagame will always change, you can't look at recent data alone, you have to look at older data as well to understand the matchup better. You have to consider who played who, and under what conditions.
Why can't you just admit TvZ is the most imbalanced matchup ever? And always will be
rofl let me just pull out one quote here:
"First of all, you're leaving out the skill level of all the players and the map pool."
You say this, yet you also want to take 10 year old statistics. Do you remember why Terrans dominated back then? Because the maps were atrocious -- even by today's standards, our imbalanced maps aren't as bad as old maps. On top of that, skill levels? There's a reason the bonjwas were bonjwas and it wasn't because Terrans are better -- the players were just better. Boxer was plain better, Nada was the definition of better, Oov redefined the game. These are all the players with the biggest impact on old statistics, influenced by T favored maps and horrible gaps in skill level.
Nowadays, the match ups are much closer because the maps aren't bad, the players aren't that separated by skill, and the overall game has improved. That's why there's not a whole lot of TvZ imbalance anymore -- it fluctuates but that's how it is. Old statistics don't matter because the maps are no longer used and there's no more bonjwas who go 27-3 over 2 seasons against Zerg. No boxers to dominate yellows, and no nadas to dominate chojjas.
TvZ is fine, STOP COMPLAINING. I play zerg and I just want you to shut up about it because you're stupid and wrong and every good terran and zerg player has tried to refute you about this, but you just want to constantly spout of age old statistics that aren't relevant. Stop, you're wrong. Zergs aren't the bitches of the world, otherwise they wouldn't have won the past FOUR titles (Jaedong's double OSL, Calm's MSL, Lux's MSL) and SIX of the past 8 medals (Yarnc and Kwanro taking silver, Jangbi and Fantasy taking the other two medals). And they almost all beat terrans along the way (Avalon MSL's 75% ZvT winrate etc).
On January 20 2010 04:37 RamenStyle wrote: Lol, Flash entering the WL being on fire this much is scary. This is going to be scarier than the JD from the times of JaedongOz. I think current Flash is harder to beat than JD at that time, and his supporting cast is way better than what the Dong had.
Hiya was the fourth best player in the WL (after Jaedong, Bisu and Flash). Whats with "all the Oz has no good players apart from JD"? WL Hiya > KT
You do know Flash all killed Oz with Hiya involved in the process, right?
I know Oz All Killed KT too but point stands, Hiya is by no means a challenge to KT. 8)
The Terran players back then seemed better because they were so good at TvZ. For example, Boxer and Oov were infamous for their TvZ. Oov had a 27 win streak versus Zergs. You would say this is simply skill? I doubt it. If you'd like, I can write a long analysis on the current meta-game of TvZ and explain how its imbalanced. I can't do it now but it will come out later
It was an 18-0 winstreak, 27-3 was the overall record. But then, guess who eliminates him from the OSL? A zerg. A Zerg with a metagame change, proving that it just took someone with the right skill could crush him (As savior also demonstrated).
And it's not "simply," skill, but skill is a huge part of it as Nada and Oov also dominated TvP as well (Their weak points were both TvT, actually).
But sure, go ahead and write a fucking thesis on TvZ and put it in its own thread on broodwar so every single analyst that knows what they're talking about can scoff at you.
On January 20 2010 04:55 AzureEye wrote: The Terran players back then seemed better because they were so good at TvZ. For example, Boxer and Oov were infamous for their TvZ. Oov had a 27 win streak versus Zergs. You would say this is simply skill? I doubt it. If you'd like, I can write a long analysis on the current meta-game of TvZ and explain how its imbalanced. I can't do it now but it will come out later
a) It wasn't 27-0, that's TLPD missing some games. It's reckoned as 18-0 by Kespa. And you know, Flash just went on a 22-game TvT streak --- by your logic, that proves TvT is racially imbalanced? b) Yes, it was skill, and also T-slanted maps. c) Have you actually watched any of the games that went into that monster streak? Zergs basically couldn't micro mutas and didn't know about defilers at the time. THE GAME HAS CHANGED.
First I just want to make clear that I don't think the match up is imba. There are times when I don't remember when's the last time a good terran defeated a good zerg and vice versa. It's the style.
However, I am concerned that a player like Flash who doesn't shy from bunker rushing will have a massive advantage over any zerg player. I'm concerned about the specific bunker rush tactic itself and the psychological consequences of it.
It is well known that if a zerg fails a 5 pool, or even a 9 pool, the game's over for them because there is no way for them to recover. Fortunately 9 pools at least have a great chance of success that it's worth the gamble.
However after a Terran fails a bunker rush, he is only at a small disadvantage. Before you say "all great players win by building on these small advantages", you have to admit that even when the players are fairly close in skill level, a completely failed bunker rush =/= auto win for zerg. On the other hand, failed 9 and 5 = auto terran win almost invariably.
Failed bunker rushes still tie down zerg drones from mining, possibly killing 1 or 2, while using only 1 or 2 scvs. The zerg can't counter as flash has shown us that a bunker + 2 scvs on the ramp = gg counter.
Well, one might say all rush strategies are high risk high reward, but it's just that bunker rushes are of much lower risk than zerg rushes.
There is also another factor, imo a more important one. It's the opportunity cost of the rush. Terran 14cc and zerg 12 hatch are the two econ builds, but 14cc is a much greedier build compared to 12 hatch, which is only standard for zerg. Zergs have to 12 hatch if they want to match terran for econ, and if they 12 hatch and get bunker rushed they are in trouble (not auto loss but it's really hard to defend esp. if the terran is good/lucky or both).
Here's where the psychological problem comes in. To simplify the situation by a GREAT DEAL, the terran has 3 choices at the beginning: bunker, standard, 14cc. Zerg has 2, 9 pool, 12 hatch.
Ok I know there's 12 pool and overpool but I still consider them ling builds because if a zerg goes 12 pool (latest pool that's not 12 hatch) he's still at a great disadv if terran plays standard.
Basically the zerg has to choose to rush if he wants to be certain he won't be hurt by a bunker rush, and if a terran bunker rushes often (like every other game), zergs just can't play 12 hatch with confidence. By a simple game theory, the equilibrium state is that zerg must 9 pool every game and the terran will play standard every game, putting the zerg at a great psychologicla disadv.
It's possible to beat a bunker rush with 12 hatch as well, but again I don't think match up is imba by game mechanics but it's imba psychologically for zerg players. Until zergs find a way to autowin against a failed bunker rush, terran players will have a big psych adv knowing their rush strategy is much more abusable.
Look the late game monster, Flash only gets stronger as the game progresses. But, Flash is also a tricky cheeser capable of ending the game very early.
He has been known for outstanding midgame timing pushes. Flash is a player who is at an advantage at every stage of the game. He macros micro. As lost wraith says as of now its psychologically tormenting for a Zerg to face the ULTIMATE WEAPON. Just think about Jaedong is an underdog. (wat?)
What you gonna do man?
People have to start hoping Flash out-innovates himself.
Or that an otherwisely out of the world player *JD* rises to challenge.
ALSO: Hoejja is the f'ing man. WOW GG vs KAL. Had Kal on his toes making mistakes and sweating the multitask.
On January 20 2010 03:11 AzureEye wrote: @Revy: Recent statistics alone do not prove anything. First of all, you're leaving out the skill level of all the players and the map pool. Secondly, statistics as small as 30 or 40 games don't mean crap, this game is 10 years old, you have to look at the bigger picture with a large sample amount.
Metagame will always change, you can't look at recent data alone, you have to look at older data as well to understand the matchup better. You have to consider who played who, and under what conditions.
Why can't you just admit TvZ is the most imbalanced matchup ever? And always will be
How TvZ is balanced now is what matters not how it has been balanced in the past. Oov's run tells you nothing about what TvZ balance is right now, games from that far back have no bearing.
Statistics as small as 30-40 games? I'm looking at a sample of over 170 TvZ. More would be better but all in all thats not that bad.
As for the skill levels that's the beauty of statistics, it all comes out in the wash. Sure it's not perfect I suppose technically zergs could have been disadvantaged in a disproportionate number of matches but a sample size of 170 is sufficient to draw some conclusions.
On January 20 2010 04:10 StorkHwaiting wrote: Why isn't anyone talking about Hoejja's brilliant play in game 3? :<
Without him, Flash never would have even had a chance to play. And he played phenomenal...
Was it Hoejja's brilliant play or Kal's mistake to not leave reavers and HT at his bases?
Er did you guys even watch the same game I did? I saw Hoejja tearing down bases while HT's stormed and reavers defended.
Hoejja plagued reavers with defilers, continuously dropped lings EVERYWHERE, and controlled the mid. It wasn't so much a "mistake" as it was Kal trying to take the initiative and then getting outmaneuvered by just ridic multitask on Hoejja's part.
P can't really split up their ball of death into 8 different little parts. Hoejja could with good obs sniping and lurker defense in the mid. That game was most definitely Hoejja playing amazing not Kal massively noobing.
I'm really amazed people aren't impressed by this game and feel the need to complain about bunker rushing instead. Bunker rushes have been around forever.
On January 20 2010 03:02 AzureEye wrote: Its common knowledge. Just like how we know air exists but its very difficult to prove that it does. Analysis of matchups cannot be objective unless we say obvious things like Drones have 40 health
Yes, it's "common knowledge", just like Z>P and P>T. The game is circularly balanced, and by some counts, TvZ is the fairest of the 3 matchups (certainly there are way more people who whine about PvZ and TvP).
On January 20 2010 03:02 AzureEye wrote: Its common knowledge. Just like how we know air exists but its very difficult to prove that it does. Analysis of matchups cannot be objective unless we say obvious things like Drones have 40 health
Yes, it's "common knowledge", just like Z>P and P>T. The game is circularly balanced, and by some counts, TvZ is the fairest of the 3 matchups (certainly there are way more people who whine about PvZ and TvP).
People complaining just means there are more pussy P players and T players than Zerg players =D!
I kid, but number of complaints is hardly a good way to measure imbalance.
On January 20 2010 06:25 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: People complaining just means there are more pussy P players and T players than Zerg players =D!
I kid, but number of complaints is hardly a good way to measure imbalance.
I'm aware of that, my point is that, while the opinion that slight imbalances exist is "common knowledge", those that say ZvT is the most imbalanced of matchups are probably in the decided minority.
On January 20 2010 06:25 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: People complaining just means there are more pussy P players and T players than Zerg players =D!
I kid, but number of complaints is hardly a good way to measure imbalance.
I'm aware of that, my point is that, while the opinion that slight imbalances exist is "common knowledge", those that say ZvT is the most imbalanced of matchups are probably in the decided minority.
Thats probably because the Zergs on TL have probably been so damn used to it over a period of last 10 years that they just died out/gave up
And we all know that the whinest forum users are Terran users who complain about PvT (plus me) Thats hardly a good way to measure imbalance
On January 20 2010 06:25 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: People complaining just means there are more pussy P players and T players than Zerg players =D!
I kid, but number of complaints is hardly a good way to measure imbalance.
I'm aware of that, my point is that, while the opinion that slight imbalances exist is "common knowledge", those that say ZvT is the most imbalanced of matchups are probably in the decided minority.
Really? I just looked at the stats for Proleague in '09-'10, '08-'09, '08, and '07 rounds 1 and 2... and TvZ is stastically the most imbalanced in every one except '07 round 2.
On January 20 2010 07:12 QuakerOats wrote: Really? I just looked at the stats for Proleague in '09-'10, '08-'09, '08, and '07 rounds 1 and 2... and TvZ is stastically the most imbalanced in every one except '07 round 2.
Because statistics about games played clearly reflects peoples' opinions?
On January 20 2010 04:10 StorkHwaiting wrote: Why isn't anyone talking about Hoejja's brilliant play in game 3? :<
Without him, Flash never would have even had a chance to play. And he played phenomenal...
Was it Hoejja's brilliant play or Kal's mistake to not leave reavers and HT at his bases?
Er did you guys even watch the same game I did? I saw Hoejja tearing down bases while HT's stormed and reavers defended.
Hoejja plagued reavers with defilers, continuously dropped lings EVERYWHERE, and controlled the mid. It wasn't so much a "mistake" as it was Kal trying to take the initiative and then getting outmaneuvered by just ridic multitask on Hoejja's part.
P can't really split up their ball of death into 8 different little parts. Hoejja could with good obs sniping and lurker defense in the mid. That game was most definitely Hoejja playing amazing not Kal massively noobing.
I'm really amazed people aren't impressed by this game and feel the need to complain about bunker rushing instead. Bunker rushes have been around forever.
I watched the vod today and totally agree that HoeJJa played brilliant. I'm not surprised because his been known for his good ZvP for some time know. When Destination was in the roster he was often sent out to pwn tosses (remember when his burrow lings wrecked havoc in Bisus base, that warmed my heart).
HoeJJa played well...admittedly I've been a bit biased against him because he's let KT down so many times this season, but he really did well catching Kal off guard with that multi-front attack that turned the game around for him.
It was a really big surprise though, since Kal had already been practicing against Zerg a ton for his series against Jaedong.
What I really want is for Luxury to go back to performing like he did in R1 >:/
Sending out Calm for ace seemed like a kind of misguided move. Flash has probably been preparing almost exclusively on his TvZ for the MSL. Although It makes sense to send out STX's strongest player for the ace, I'm guessing that if they sent out Kal or Hwasin KT might not have even sent out Flash at all
On January 20 2010 09:34 Aduromors wrote: Sending out Calm for ace seemed like a kind of misguided move. Flash has probably been preparing almost exclusively on his TvZ for the MSL. Although It makes sense to send out STX's strongest player for the ace, I'm guessing that if they sent out Kal or Hwasin KT might not have even sent out Flash at all
I think they were hoping that Flash would feel apprehensive about revealing in-game timings and hence play subpar, which makes me wonder why Calm didn't smell a cheese coming...
On January 20 2010 09:34 Aduromors wrote: Sending out Calm for ace seemed like a kind of misguided move. Flash has probably been preparing almost exclusively on his TvZ for the MSL. Although It makes sense to send out STX's strongest player for the ace, I'm guessing that if they sent out Kal or Hwasin KT might not have even sent out Flash at all
Just so you know, KT don't know who STX was sending so no matter who they send, Flash would be send out no matter what.
On January 20 2010 03:02 AzureEye wrote: Its common knowledge. Just like how we know air exists but its very difficult to prove that it does. Analysis of matchups cannot be objective unless we say obvious things like Drones have 40 health
Yes, it's "common knowledge", just like Z>P and P>T. The game is circularly balanced, and by some counts, TvZ is the fairest of the 3 matchups (certainly there are way more people who whine about PvZ and TvP).
TvP is the most balanced of the matchups.
It's only because of the massive Terran whine on TL that people complain about PvT. "14 Nexus is auto win" "DT's are so imba" "OMG recall needs to be nerfed" "All he did was 1a2a3a" "Storms do too much damage" "Carriers are auto win"
On January 20 2010 11:02 johnnyspazz wrote: i wish i can witness a protoss own as much as flash is right now soon before sc:bw phases out
I'll have faith in Bisu until the end of BW
In SCII Savior is going to rape everyone as Protoss
On January 20 2010 08:07 SilverskY wrote: There is seriously so much bitching in TL nowadays it's sickening. Flash is good, that's it, please stop crying.
Honestly, I don't understand it. Lee Young Ho is untouchable right now and so many people cry about it. What is there to complain about? YES HE'S JUST THAT GOOD When he wins MSL and owns Winner's League, becoming God of all bonjwas, they will stfu.
On January 20 2010 15:07 WWJDD wrote: But what if Jaedong beats Flash? It's happened before, and it sure as hell can happen again.
Then we go "welp", and we move on. Who the fuck cares who wins as long as we get good games. Because I'm bettting that whoever the winner is will win in an extremely unexciting manner due to the insane skill level of the players involved.
when i see the game times ends in 5 min on youtube i thought, "omfg calm will 5 pool"? but apparently not. but on note to haters and complainers, Flash is good, deal with it. This is starcraft, a strategy game for fucks sake; either outplay your opponent or gtfo.
On January 20 2010 08:07 SilverskY wrote: There is seriously so much bitching in TL nowadays it's sickening. Flash is good, that's it, please stop crying.
Honestly, I don't understand it. Lee Young Ho is untouchable right now and so many people cry about it. What is there to complain about? YES HE'S JUST THAT GOOD When he wins MSL and owns Winner's League, becoming God of all bonjwas, they will stfu.
People don't really complain less when there's a bonjwa around.
On January 20 2010 03:02 AzureEye wrote: Its common knowledge. Just like how we know air exists but its very difficult to prove that it does. Analysis of matchups cannot be objective unless we say obvious things like Drones have 40 health
Yes, it's "common knowledge", just like Z>P and P>T. The game is circularly balanced, and by some counts, TvZ is the fairest of the 3 matchups (certainly there are way more people who whine about PvZ and TvP).
TvP is the most balanced of the matchups.
It's only because of the massive Terran whine on TL that people complain about PvT. "14 Nexus is auto win" "DT's are so imba" "OMG recall needs to be nerfed" "All he did was 1a2a3a" "Storms do too much damage" "Carriers are auto win"
TvZ is easily the most imba matchup imo.
One of the things I noticed in pro TvZ, PvT, and ZvP, is if the former lets the latter get to standard late game, the imbalance is greatly in the latter's advantage.
I was so certain it was going to be Kal vs Flash in the ace match. I know STX has some decently good zerg, but KTF has Flash! Kal would be STX's best chance at winning even though Flash's TvP is pretty good. As long as Kal doesn't do something like 14 nexus, Kal has a good chance at winning.
On January 22 2010 16:56 [X]Ken_D wrote: I was so certain it was going to be Kal vs Flash in the ace match. I know STX has some decently good zerg, but KTF has Flash! Kal would be STX's best chance at winning even though Flash's TvP is pretty good. As long as Kal doesn't do something like 14 nexus, Kal has a good chance at winning.
This is the BIGGEST understatement I've ever read in anything related to SC.