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On January 20 2010 03:02 AzureEye wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2010 01:51 Fx_ wrote:On January 20 2010 01:18 AzureEye wrote:On January 19 2010 23:55 Fx_ wrote:On January 19 2010 23:27 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Terran is bullshit. That's all I have to say.
PS Try going against a Terran without a 12 hatch. You'll die miserably. ROFL i can't stop laughing of this post i'm laughing at how ignorant your post is lol. TvZ is too fucking imba, the guy said nothing funny Blah blah blah There are any objective facts? except "Terran is bullshit" and "TvZ is too fucking imba" Its common knowledge. Just like how we know air exists but its very difficult to prove that it does. Analysis of matchups cannot be objective unless we say obvious things like Drones have 40 health
What's common knowledge here is that you're just a sad troll. But then again, this could just be me stating my own opinion as an acknowledged fact.
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On January 20 2010 04:37 RamenStyle wrote:
Lol, Flash entering the WL being on fire this much is scary. This is going to be scarier than the JD from the times of JaedongOz. I think current Flash is harder to beat than JD at that time, and his supporting cast is way better than what the Dong had.
Hiya was the fourth best player in the WL (after Jaedong, Bisu and Flash). Whats with "all the Oz has no good players apart from JD"? WL Hiya > KT
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On January 20 2010 03:11 AzureEye wrote:
@Revy: Recent statistics alone do not prove anything. First of all, you're leaving out the skill level of all the players and the map pool. Secondly, statistics as small as 30 or 40 games don't mean crap, this game is 10 years old, you have to look at the bigger picture with a large sample amount.
Metagame will always change, you can't look at recent data alone, you have to look at older data as well to understand the matchup better. You have to consider who played who, and under what conditions.
Why can't you just admit TvZ is the most imbalanced matchup ever? And always will be
rofl let me just pull out one quote here:
"First of all, you're leaving out the skill level of all the players and the map pool."
You say this, yet you also want to take 10 year old statistics. Do you remember why Terrans dominated back then? Because the maps were atrocious -- even by today's standards, our imbalanced maps aren't as bad as old maps. On top of that, skill levels? There's a reason the bonjwas were bonjwas and it wasn't because Terrans are better -- the players were just better. Boxer was plain better, Nada was the definition of better, Oov redefined the game. These are all the players with the biggest impact on old statistics, influenced by T favored maps and horrible gaps in skill level.
Nowadays, the match ups are much closer because the maps aren't bad, the players aren't that separated by skill, and the overall game has improved. That's why there's not a whole lot of TvZ imbalance anymore -- it fluctuates but that's how it is. Old statistics don't matter because the maps are no longer used and there's no more bonjwas who go 27-3 over 2 seasons against Zerg. No boxers to dominate yellows, and no nadas to dominate chojjas.
TvZ is fine, STOP COMPLAINING. I play zerg and I just want you to shut up about it because you're stupid and wrong and every good terran and zerg player has tried to refute you about this, but you just want to constantly spout of age old statistics that aren't relevant. Stop, you're wrong. Zergs aren't the bitches of the world, otherwise they wouldn't have won the past FOUR titles (Jaedong's double OSL, Calm's MSL, Lux's MSL) and SIX of the past 8 medals (Yarnc and Kwanro taking silver, Jangbi and Fantasy taking the other two medals). And they almost all beat terrans along the way (Avalon MSL's 75% ZvT winrate etc).
THE GAME'S FINE SHUT UP
On January 20 2010 04:42 SuperArc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2010 04:37 RamenStyle wrote:
Lol, Flash entering the WL being on fire this much is scary. This is going to be scarier than the JD from the times of JaedongOz. I think current Flash is harder to beat than JD at that time, and his supporting cast is way better than what the Dong had. Hiya was the fourth best player in the WL (after Jaedong, Bisu and Flash). Whats with "all the Oz has no good players apart from JD"? WL Hiya > KT
You do know Flash all killed Oz with Hiya involved in the process, right?
I know Oz All Killed KT too but point stands, Hiya is by no means a challenge to KT. 8)
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The Terran players back then seemed better because they were so good at TvZ. For example, Boxer and Oov were infamous for their TvZ. Oov had a 27 win streak versus Zergs. You would say this is simply skill? I doubt it. If you'd like, I can write a long analysis on the current meta-game of TvZ and explain how its imbalanced. I can't do it now but it will come out later
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It was an 18-0 winstreak, 27-3 was the overall record. But then, guess who eliminates him from the OSL? A zerg. A Zerg with a metagame change, proving that it just took someone with the right skill could crush him (As savior also demonstrated).
And it's not "simply," skill, but skill is a huge part of it as Nada and Oov also dominated TvP as well (Their weak points were both TvT, actually).
But sure, go ahead and write a fucking thesis on TvZ and put it in its own thread on broodwar so every single analyst that knows what they're talking about can scoff at you.
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On January 20 2010 04:55 AzureEye wrote:
The Terran players back then seemed better because they were so good at TvZ. For example, Boxer and Oov were infamous for their TvZ. Oov had a 27 win streak versus Zergs. You would say this is simply skill? I doubt it. If you'd like, I can write a long analysis on the current meta-game of TvZ and explain how its imbalanced. I can't do it now but it will come out later
a) It wasn't 27-0, that's TLPD missing some games. It's reckoned as 18-0 by Kespa. And you know, Flash just went on a 22-game TvT streak --- by your logic, that proves TvT is racially imbalanced?
b) Yes, it was skill, and also T-slanted maps.
c) Have you actually watched any of the games that went into that monster streak? Zergs basically couldn't micro mutas and didn't know about defilers at the time. THE GAME HAS CHANGED.
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United States8476 Posts
Can someone translate the interview? I'm wondering Hoejja's response to his performance.
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First I just want to make clear that I don't think the match up is imba. There are times when I don't remember when's the last time a good terran defeated a good zerg and vice versa. It's the style.
However, I am concerned that a player like Flash who doesn't shy from bunker rushing will have a massive advantage over any zerg player. I'm concerned about the specific bunker rush tactic itself and the psychological consequences of it.
It is well known that if a zerg fails a 5 pool, or even a 9 pool, the game's over for them because there is no way for them to recover. Fortunately 9 pools at least have a great chance of success that it's worth the gamble.
However after a Terran fails a bunker rush, he is only at a small disadvantage. Before you say "all great players win by building on these small advantages", you have to admit that even when the players are fairly close in skill level, a completely failed bunker rush =/= auto win for zerg. On the other hand, failed 9 and 5 = auto terran win almost invariably.
Failed bunker rushes still tie down zerg drones from mining, possibly killing 1 or 2, while using only 1 or 2 scvs. The zerg can't counter as flash has shown us that a bunker + 2 scvs on the ramp = gg counter.
Well, one might say all rush strategies are high risk high reward, but it's just that bunker rushes are of much lower risk than zerg rushes.
There is also another factor, imo a more important one. It's the opportunity cost of the rush. Terran 14cc and zerg 12 hatch are the two econ builds, but 14cc is a much greedier build compared to 12 hatch, which is only standard for zerg. Zergs have to 12 hatch if they want to match terran for econ, and if they 12 hatch and get bunker rushed they are in trouble (not auto loss but it's really hard to defend esp. if the terran is good/lucky or both).
Here's where the psychological problem comes in. To simplify the situation by a GREAT DEAL, the terran has 3 choices at the beginning: bunker, standard, 14cc. Zerg has 2, 9 pool, 12 hatch.
Ok I know there's 12 pool and overpool but I still consider them ling builds because if a zerg goes 12 pool (latest pool that's not 12 hatch) he's still at a great disadv if terran plays standard.
Basically the zerg has to choose to rush if he wants to be certain he won't be hurt by a bunker rush, and if a terran bunker rushes often (like every other game), zergs just can't play 12 hatch with confidence. By a simple game theory, the equilibrium state is that zerg must 9 pool every game and the terran will play standard every game, putting the zerg at a great psychologicla disadv.
It's possible to beat a bunker rush with 12 hatch as well, but again I don't think match up is imba by game mechanics but it's imba psychologically for zerg players. Until zergs find a way to autowin against a failed bunker rush, terran players will have a big psych adv knowing their rush strategy is much more abusable.
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Look the late game monster, Flash only gets stronger as the game progresses. But, Flash is also a tricky cheeser capable of ending the game very early.
He has been known for outstanding midgame timing pushes. Flash is a player who is at an advantage at every stage of the game. He macros micro. As lost wraith says as of now its psychologically tormenting for a Zerg to face the ULTIMATE WEAPON. Just think about Jaedong is an underdog. (wat?)
What you gonna do man?
People have to start hoping Flash out-innovates himself.
Or that an otherwisely out of the world player *JD* rises to challenge.
ALSO: Hoejja is the f'ing man. WOW GG vs KAL. Had Kal on his toes making mistakes and sweating the multitask.
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On January 20 2010 03:11 AzureEye wrote:
@Revy: Recent statistics alone do not prove anything. First of all, you're leaving out the skill level of all the players and the map pool. Secondly, statistics as small as 30 or 40 games don't mean crap, this game is 10 years old, you have to look at the bigger picture with a large sample amount.
Metagame will always change, you can't look at recent data alone, you have to look at older data as well to understand the matchup better. You have to consider who played who, and under what conditions.
Why can't you just admit TvZ is the most imbalanced matchup ever? And always will be
How TvZ is balanced now is what matters not how it has been balanced in the past. Oov's run tells you nothing about what TvZ balance is right now, games from that far back have no bearing.
Statistics as small as 30-40 games? I'm looking at a sample of over 170 TvZ. More would be better but all in all thats not that bad.
As for the skill levels that's the beauty of statistics, it all comes out in the wash. Sure it's not perfect I suppose technically zergs could have been disadvantaged in a disproportionate number of matches but a sample size of 170 is sufficient to draw some conclusions.
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On January 20 2010 04:13 Mortician wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2010 04:10 StorkHwaiting wrote:
Why isn't anyone talking about Hoejja's brilliant play in game 3? :<
Without him, Flash never would have even had a chance to play. And he played phenomenal... Was it Hoejja's brilliant play or Kal's mistake to not leave reavers and HT at his bases?
Er did you guys even watch the same game I did? I saw Hoejja tearing down bases while HT's stormed and reavers defended.
Hoejja plagued reavers with defilers, continuously dropped lings EVERYWHERE, and controlled the mid. It wasn't so much a "mistake" as it was Kal trying to take the initiative and then getting outmaneuvered by just ridic multitask on Hoejja's part.
P can't really split up their ball of death into 8 different little parts. Hoejja could with good obs sniping and lurker defense in the mid. That game was most definitely Hoejja playing amazing not Kal massively noobing.
I'm really amazed people aren't impressed by this game and feel the need to complain about bunker rushing instead. Bunker rushes have been around forever.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 20 2010 03:02 AzureEye wrote:
Its common knowledge. Just like how we know air exists but its very difficult to prove that it does. Analysis of matchups cannot be objective unless we say obvious things like Drones have 40 health
Yes, it's "common knowledge", just like Z>P and P>T. The game is circularly balanced, and by some counts, TvZ is the fairest of the 3 matchups (certainly there are way more people who whine about PvZ and TvP).
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Baa?21244 Posts
On January 20 2010 06:23 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2010 03:02 AzureEye wrote:
Its common knowledge. Just like how we know air exists but its very difficult to prove that it does. Analysis of matchups cannot be objective unless we say obvious things like Drones have 40 health Yes, it's "common knowledge", just like Z>P and P>T. The game is circularly balanced, and by some counts, TvZ is the fairest of the 3 matchups (certainly there are way more people who whine about PvZ and TvP).
People complaining just means there are more pussy P players and T players than Zerg players =D!
I kid, but number of complaints is hardly a good way to measure imbalance.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 20 2010 06:25 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
People complaining just means there are more pussy P players and T players than Zerg players =D!
I kid, but number of complaints is hardly a good way to measure imbalance.
I'm aware of that, my point is that, while the opinion that slight imbalances exist is "common knowledge", those that say ZvT is the most imbalanced of matchups are probably in the decided minority.
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On January 20 2010 06:27 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2010 06:25 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
People complaining just means there are more pussy P players and T players than Zerg players =D!
I kid, but number of complaints is hardly a good way to measure imbalance. I'm aware of that, my point is that, while the opinion that slight imbalances exist is "common knowledge", those that say ZvT is the most imbalanced of matchups are probably in the decided minority.
Thats probably because the Zergs on TL have probably been so damn used to it over a period of last 10 years that they just died out/gave up
And we all know that the whinest forum users are Terran users who complain about PvT (plus me)
Thats hardly a good way to measure imbalance
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On January 20 2010 06:27 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On January 20 2010 06:25 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
People complaining just means there are more pussy P players and T players than Zerg players =D!
I kid, but number of complaints is hardly a good way to measure imbalance. I'm aware of that, my point is that, while the opinion that slight imbalances exist is "common knowledge", those that say ZvT is the most imbalanced of matchups are probably in the decided minority.
Really? I just looked at the stats for Proleague in '09-'10, '08-'09, '08, and '07 rounds 1 and 2... and TvZ is stastically the most imbalanced in every one except '07 round 2.
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United States47024 Posts
On January 20 2010 07:12 QuakerOats wrote:
Really? I just looked at the stats for Proleague in '09-'10, '08-'09, '08, and '07 rounds 1 and 2... and TvZ is stastically the most imbalanced in every one except '07 round 2.
Because statistics about games played clearly reflects peoples' opinions?
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I thought Violet would win. 
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Korea (South)3086 Posts
There is seriously so much bitching in TL nowadays it's sickening. Flash is good, that's it, please stop crying.
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AzureEye is finally banned. 
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EPT
