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konadora
Singapore66357 Posts
On November 28 2009 18:34 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2009 18:31 konadora wrote:On November 28 2009 18:31 Sentenal wrote:On November 28 2009 18:26 OneOther wrote:On November 28 2009 18:23 Sentenal wrote:
How do you lose a proxy 2gate vs 12hatch? I swear, my head will explode if more things like this keep happening tonight. i actually think 12 hatch is better vs proxy 2 gate than 9 pool/overpool builds. you are constantly pumping out of two hatcheries rather than one. from my experience i win with proxy gates more often when z goes pool first build 9/10gate is supposed to be a counter to 12hatch, is it ? And if it was proxied, it would be even more dangerous to the zerg, I would think. If they go something like 9pool or overpool, and you proxied, you either get backstabbed, or lose your proxy. as long as you save your hatch and drones, you will be able to outnumber the zealots heavily "If you go 14cc vs a 9pool, as long as you save your cc and your scvs, you will be able to overpower the zerglings" Kind of an extreme example, but it seems that way to me. Even Liquipedia lists 9/9 and 9/10gate as a counter to 12hatch 11pool.
watch all the pvzs with protosses going proxy 2 gate then, most of them fail if the zergs defend their hatchery
and liquipedia isn't always correct
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United States10774 Posts
On November 28 2009 18:31 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2009 18:26 OneOther wrote:On November 28 2009 18:23 Sentenal wrote:
How do you lose a proxy 2gate vs 12hatch? I swear, my head will explode if more things like this keep happening tonight. i actually think 12 hatch is better vs proxy 2 gate than 9 pool/overpool builds. you are constantly pumping out of two hatcheries rather than one. from my experience i win with proxy gates more often when z goes pool first build 9/10gate is supposed to be a counter to 12hatch, is it ? And if it was proxied, it would be even more dangerous to the zerg, I would think. If they go something like 9pool or overpool, and you proxied, you either get backstabbed, or lose your proxy.
I think the optimal situation for Protoss is Zerg going 9 pool/overpool without fast gas. Zerg is usually fucked if that happens. With 12 hatch, you just need to be careful to not lose your lings early on then you can eventually outnumber the zealots. People commonly think proxy gates directly counters 12 hatch, but that's not the case. Against pool first builds, you usually wait for 3 zealots before going in and if they sunken up main + attempt to backstab, you can use his ramp for your advantage. You know it's coming.
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u gotta skate8152 Posts
On November 28 2009 18:30 konadora wrote:lol wtf?
That looks photoshopped. I can tell by the pixels.
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konadora
Singapore66357 Posts
On November 28 2009 18:36 KizZBG wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2009 18:30 konadora wrote:On November 28 2009 18:29 MamiyaOtaru wrote:holy fscking stick figure lol wtf? That looks photoshopped. I can tell by the pixels.
yeah i know, i mean it's very random lol
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United States10774 Posts
On November 28 2009 18:34 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2009 18:31 konadora wrote:On November 28 2009 18:31 Sentenal wrote:On November 28 2009 18:26 OneOther wrote:On November 28 2009 18:23 Sentenal wrote:
How do you lose a proxy 2gate vs 12hatch? I swear, my head will explode if more things like this keep happening tonight. i actually think 12 hatch is better vs proxy 2 gate than 9 pool/overpool builds. you are constantly pumping out of two hatcheries rather than one. from my experience i win with proxy gates more often when z goes pool first build 9/10gate is supposed to be a counter to 12hatch, is it ? And if it was proxied, it would be even more dangerous to the zerg, I would think. If they go something like 9pool or overpool, and you proxied, you either get backstabbed, or lose your proxy. as long as you save your hatch and drones, you will be able to outnumber the zealots heavily "If you go 14cc vs a 9pool, as long as you save your cc and your scvs, you will be able to overpower the zerglings" Kind of an extreme example, but it seems that way to me. Even Liquipedia lists 9/9 and 9/10gate as a counter to 12hatch 11pool.
...that is a horrible example btw because i am just saying that zergs have a better chance of defending vs hardcore proxy gates with 12 hatchery than a pool first build. if you go pool first, you are often forced to backstab, which is a very predictable move.
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konadora
Singapore66357 Posts
what was the purpose of the mineral hop lol
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If Movie just did everything in his power to keep the nexus alive (which meant sacrificing probes) he probably would of had a chance to win.
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On November 28 2009 18:37 konadora wrote:
what was the purpose of the mineral hop lol
to get more vision?
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konadora
Singapore66357 Posts
On November 28 2009 18:38 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2009 18:37 konadora wrote:
what was the purpose of the mineral hop lol to get more vision?
for what, though? lol
i think he wanted to scout cc i guess?
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On November 28 2009 18:38 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2009 18:38 DoctorHelvetica wrote:On November 28 2009 18:37 konadora wrote:
what was the purpose of the mineral hop lol to get more vision? for what, though? lol i think he wanted to scout cc i guess?
yeah, im assuming so
maybe he thought he could make it into the main
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On November 28 2009 18:35 OneOther wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2009 18:31 Sentenal wrote:On November 28 2009 18:26 OneOther wrote:On November 28 2009 18:23 Sentenal wrote:
How do you lose a proxy 2gate vs 12hatch? I swear, my head will explode if more things like this keep happening tonight. i actually think 12 hatch is better vs proxy 2 gate than 9 pool/overpool builds. you are constantly pumping out of two hatcheries rather than one. from my experience i win with proxy gates more often when z goes pool first build 9/10gate is supposed to be a counter to 12hatch, is it ? And if it was proxied, it would be even more dangerous to the zerg, I would think. If they go something like 9pool or overpool, and you proxied, you either get backstabbed, or lose your proxy. I think the optimal Zerg build for proxy gate is 9 pool/overpool without fast gas. Zerg is usually fucked if that happens. With 12 hatch, you just need to be careful to not lose your lings early on then you can eventually outnumber the zealots. People commonly think proxy gates directly counters 12 hatch, but that's not the case. Against pool first builds, you usually wait for 3 zealots before going in and if they sunken up main + attempt to backstab, you can use his ramp for your advantage.
Well lets say they went 9pool or overpool, and you proxied. They would have about 6 lings out when you have one zealot, right? Whats stopping them from just killing that lone zealot, and then the pylon?
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is this the iloveoov build
i doubt canatas ability to pull this off
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On November 28 2009 18:26 Gustav_Wind wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2009 18:23 Kot wrote:On November 28 2009 18:22 Gustav_Wind wrote:On November 28 2009 18:21 StorkHwaiting wrote:On November 28 2009 18:00 cunninglinguists wrote:
it seems that the dominance that everyone was known for is fading:
stork's slipping up in his pvp
jaedong's slipping up in his zvz
effort's slipping up in his zvz
bisu's slipping up in his pvz (in comparison to his previous dominance)
hwasin's slipping up in his tvz
fantasy is slipping up in his tvp
flash is slipping up in his tvp God one game does not mean Stork's PvP is slipping. Please don't try to make dumb umbrella assertions. Same with Flash. Yeah his TvP is just SO bad now, coz he lost one game to Best. Flash said in an interview that he feels it's his weakest matchup. just cause it's his worst matchup doesn't mean he doesn't have the best tvp in the world Sure, but the guy's original point was that players famous for being good in certain matchups have had their strengths and weaknesses change somewhat recently. And that has happened with Flash's TvP/TvZ. Also, I'd say results-wise he's doing about as well as Fantasy in TvP recently. It's hard to say since he hasn't been playing many Protosses.
You really want me to break it down for you why that guy's post is not very smart?
First, Stork has never been known for being a PvP master. This is the guy who lost to Bisu because he forgot goon range. His best matchup has always been PvT, NOT PvP. His PvP was considered unreliable. Hence why Jangbi was used for ace matches almost universally over Stork. The reason why a lot of noobies think Stork is known for his PvP is probably because of his OSL series vs Best and Bisu. Stork went in as the underdog vs Best's invincible PvP streak and raped. Hence the hype over Stork's PvP. I remember when Stork was an underdog going in vs any other A-level toss. Kal used to mop the floor with Stork in some very odd and all over the place games. Stork has always been middling good at PvP, relying more on great large army management, stellar macro, and reaver micro (which is more a side-effect of his insane PvT).
Second, Effort's ZvZ is his LOWEST win percentage MU. Wtf is that guy talking about ZvZ is what Effort's known for? Effort raped EVERYthing that crossed his path, not just Zs. And he's such a relatively new player he shouldn't be famous for anything at this point. He doesn't even have an OSL/MSL medal.
Bisu's PvZ is no more uninspiring than Bisu's play in general. When you see Bisu dropping games to foreigners, getting eliminated from China tournies, and using proxy cheese strats every other game, that's an indication Bisu is fking about and in one of his funks. He's not doing that hot in general, not just one MU. And look at the metagame. PvZ has gone downhill for nearly all Tosses. So again, it's a stupid attempt at finding a pattern.
Hwasin's 6-4 in last 10 TvZ's. His historic percentage is 64% He wins the next game and he's right on track with how he's always been. Another stupid comment.
Fantasy is 4-6 in his last 10 TvPs. 4 of his losses are to Stork. Do I really need to explain this?
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On November 28 2009 18:39 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2009 18:35 OneOther wrote:On November 28 2009 18:31 Sentenal wrote:On November 28 2009 18:26 OneOther wrote:On November 28 2009 18:23 Sentenal wrote:
How do you lose a proxy 2gate vs 12hatch? I swear, my head will explode if more things like this keep happening tonight. i actually think 12 hatch is better vs proxy 2 gate than 9 pool/overpool builds. you are constantly pumping out of two hatcheries rather than one. from my experience i win with proxy gates more often when z goes pool first build 9/10gate is supposed to be a counter to 12hatch, is it ? And if it was proxied, it would be even more dangerous to the zerg, I would think. If they go something like 9pool or overpool, and you proxied, you either get backstabbed, or lose your proxy. I think the optimal Zerg build for proxy gate is 9 pool/overpool without fast gas. Zerg is usually fucked if that happens. With 12 hatch, you just need to be careful to not lose your lings early on then you can eventually outnumber the zealots. People commonly think proxy gates directly counters 12 hatch, but that's not the case. Against pool first builds, you usually wait for 3 zealots before going in and if they sunken up main + attempt to backstab, you can use his ramp for your advantage. Well lets say they went 9pool or overpool, and you proxied. They would have about 6 lings out when you have one zealot, right? Whats stopping them from just killing that lone zealot, and then the pylon?
the 2 zlots that would spawn before you got anything done? do some delay with the 1 zlot and just wait for the other 2
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canata trying to be fanatsy
completely failing hahahah
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United States10774 Posts
On November 28 2009 18:39 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2009 18:35 OneOther wrote:On November 28 2009 18:31 Sentenal wrote:On November 28 2009 18:26 OneOther wrote:On November 28 2009 18:23 Sentenal wrote:
How do you lose a proxy 2gate vs 12hatch? I swear, my head will explode if more things like this keep happening tonight. i actually think 12 hatch is better vs proxy 2 gate than 9 pool/overpool builds. you are constantly pumping out of two hatcheries rather than one. from my experience i win with proxy gates more often when z goes pool first build 9/10gate is supposed to be a counter to 12hatch, is it ? And if it was proxied, it would be even more dangerous to the zerg, I would think. If they go something like 9pool or overpool, and you proxied, you either get backstabbed, or lose your proxy. I think the optimal Zerg build for proxy gate is 9 pool/overpool without fast gas. Zerg is usually fucked if that happens. With 12 hatch, you just need to be careful to not lose your lings early on then you can eventually outnumber the zealots. People commonly think proxy gates directly counters 12 hatch, but that's not the case. Against pool first builds, you usually wait for 3 zealots before going in and if they sunken up main + attempt to backstab, you can use his ramp for your advantage. Well lets say they went 9pool or overpool, and you proxied. They would have about 6 lings out when you have one zealot, right? Whats stopping them from just killing that lone zealot, and then the pylon?
You will have the second/third zealot out by the time six lings arrive. If your proxy is very close, you buy time with your zealot and probe (dancing them around near his base but not losing them, obviously). Fast lings killing your proxy is never a problem lol
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Stork's shuttle micro :D so awesome.
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konadora
Singapore66357 Posts
On November 28 2009 18:39 Sentenal wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2009 18:35 OneOther wrote:On November 28 2009 18:31 Sentenal wrote:On November 28 2009 18:26 OneOther wrote:On November 28 2009 18:23 Sentenal wrote:
How do you lose a proxy 2gate vs 12hatch? I swear, my head will explode if more things like this keep happening tonight. i actually think 12 hatch is better vs proxy 2 gate than 9 pool/overpool builds. you are constantly pumping out of two hatcheries rather than one. from my experience i win with proxy gates more often when z goes pool first build 9/10gate is supposed to be a counter to 12hatch, is it ? And if it was proxied, it would be even more dangerous to the zerg, I would think. If they go something like 9pool or overpool, and you proxied, you either get backstabbed, or lose your proxy. I think the optimal Zerg build for proxy gate is 9 pool/overpool without fast gas. Zerg is usually fucked if that happens. With 12 hatch, you just need to be careful to not lose your lings early on then you can eventually outnumber the zealots. People commonly think proxy gates directly counters 12 hatch, but that's not the case. Against pool first builds, you usually wait for 3 zealots before going in and if they sunken up main + attempt to backstab, you can use his ramp for your advantage. Well lets say they went 9pool or overpool, and you proxied. They would have about 6 lings out when you have one zealot, right? Whats stopping them from just killing that lone zealot, and then the pylon?
protoss saves that zealot and waits for 2 more while defending the pylon and attacking when there's 3 or more zealots
the protoss player shouldn't be dumb enough to just feed the zerg player their first zealot
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Canata failed a probe snipe pretty badly, leaves it with 1 HP. takes out some observers in frustration
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On November 28 2009 18:39 StorkHwaiting wrote:Show nested quote +On November 28 2009 18:26 Gustav_Wind wrote:On November 28 2009 18:23 Kot wrote:On November 28 2009 18:22 Gustav_Wind wrote:On November 28 2009 18:21 StorkHwaiting wrote:On November 28 2009 18:00 cunninglinguists wrote:
it seems that the dominance that everyone was known for is fading:
stork's slipping up in his pvp
jaedong's slipping up in his zvz
effort's slipping up in his zvz
bisu's slipping up in his pvz (in comparison to his previous dominance)
hwasin's slipping up in his tvz
fantasy is slipping up in his tvp
flash is slipping up in his tvp God one game does not mean Stork's PvP is slipping. Please don't try to make dumb umbrella assertions. Same with Flash. Yeah his TvP is just SO bad now, coz he lost one game to Best. Flash said in an interview that he feels it's his weakest matchup. just cause it's his worst matchup doesn't mean he doesn't have the best tvp in the world Sure, but the guy's original point was that players famous for being good in certain matchups have had their strengths and weaknesses change somewhat recently. And that has happened with Flash's TvP/TvZ. Also, I'd say results-wise he's doing about as well as Fantasy in TvP recently. It's hard to say since he hasn't been playing many Protosses. You really want me to break it down for you why that guy's post is not very smart? First, Stork has never been known for being a PvP master. This is the guy who lost to Bisu because he forgot goon range. His best matchup has always been PvT, NOT PvP. His PvP was considered unreliable. Hence why Jangbi was used for ace matches almost universally over Stork. The reason why a lot of noobies think Stork is known for his PvP is probably because of his OSL series vs Best and Bisu. Stork went in as the underdog vs Best's invincible PvP streak and raped. Hence the hype over Stork's PvP. I remember when Stork was an underdog going in vs any other A-level toss. Kal used to mop the floor with Stork in some very odd and all over the place games. Stork has always been middling good at PvP, relying more on great large army management, stellar macro, and reaver micro (which is more a side-effect of his insane PvT). Second, Effort's ZvZ is his LOWEST win percentage MU. Wtf is that guy talking about ZvZ is what Effort's known for? Effort raped EVERYthing that crossed his path, not just Zs. And he's such a relatively new player he shouldn't be famous for anything at this point. He doesn't even have an OSL/MSL medal. Bisu's PvZ is no more uninspiring than Bisu's play in general. When you see Bisu dropping games to foreigners, getting eliminated from China tournies, and using proxy cheese strats every other game, that's an indication Bisu is fking about and in one of his funks. He's not doing that hot in general, not just one MU. And look at the metagame. PvZ has gone downhill for nearly all Tosses. So again, it's a stupid attempt at finding a pattern. Hwasin's 6-4 in last 10 TvZ's. His historic percentage is 64% He wins the next game and he's right on track with how he's always been. Another stupid comment. Fantasy is 4-6 in his last 10 TvPs. 4 of his losses are to Stork. Do I really need to explain this?
Half of what you wrote there is debatable, but that's not the point.
Look, I didn't mean that I agreed with what he said. I was responding to your comment, which I felt was incorrect.
Specifically, you made some sarcastic remark to the effect of denying that Flash's TvP is worse now relative to what it was. That's what I was disagreeing with.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img410.imageshack.us/img410/7997/sticka.jpg)
