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On October 16 2009 21:52 motbob wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2009 21:40 TwoToneTerran wrote:On October 16 2009 21:27 motbob wrote:On October 16 2009 21:16 TwoToneTerran wrote:On October 16 2009 21:09 motbob wrote:On October 16 2009 21:04 Holgerius wrote:On October 16 2009 20:55 motbob wrote:On October 16 2009 20:54 Camlito wrote:On October 16 2009 20:49 SuperArc wrote:
BackHo almost beat Calm (top3 zerg) in a Bo3.
There is hardly a ZvP imba. Calm wouldn't be top 3 ZvP, probably Top 5-7. Calm is top 1 everything IMO. Calm is the best zerg out there right now, and probably the best player. What? Are you being sarcastic? Hmm, maybe you're right. We should have Jaedong and Calm play a Bo5 to see who's better. Oh wait, they already did, and Calm won. Luxury 2-0'd Calm, Luxury best zerg. Lux isn't 29-11 last 40 game. Lux also beat Calm in WCG, which probably* means less to the players than the MSL. *(definitely) Yeah, and Calm beat Jaedong in the MSL, which probably* means less to the players than the OSL. The difference is that Jaedong had to play the MSL and OSL at the same time, while worrying about FA and PL finals, whereas Calm just got raped with nothing to practice for but WCG. *(definitely) Logic = horrendous I know where you're coming from, but look back a few months ago. Effort was on top of the world, raping everyone left and right, 2-0'd Jaedong out of GOM. Everyone said Effort is the best zerg, hell he even trounced Jaedong off the top spot in the power rank. Then the dissidents and critics pointed out that Jaedong was fucking swamped and was still doing well in the other, more important scenes. Move a couple months later and Jaedong has a golden mouse. Calm is not definitively better than Jaedong. ??? definitively better? I never said that. I was just responding to the guy who said that my opinion was so stupid that I had to be being sarcastic. I just think he's posted definitively better results lately. Maybe that's cause Jaedong is swamped but it's worth noting that he absolutely destroyed Yarnc after very little practice but got stomped by Calm after (assumedly) the same lack of practice a few weeks later earlier. So it's not as if with enough of a practice differential, any A-class zerg can beat JD.
Yep, Calm is S-class with amazing and intelligent ZvZ. Jaedong is still better.
I mean, sure, Jaedong didn't stomp his OSL group because he's seeded for winning. Sure, Jaedong didn't stomp his MST groups, because he's seeded, just like Calm, into the ro32. Jaedong's got one less win in PL, but is still hasn't lost a game. There's no way to differentiate if Jaedong is still on top of his game because he hasn't had to play a lot lately. Saying Calm is the #1 zerg is absolutely premature. Atleast when people were calling Effort the #1 zerg, Jaedong was losing games he shouldn't be losing.
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On October 16 2009 21:02 Kazius wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2009 20:59 zenaardvark wrote:On October 16 2009 20:54 Camlito wrote:On October 16 2009 20:49 SuperArc wrote:
BackHo almost beat Calm (top3 zerg) in a Bo3.
There is hardly a ZvP imba. Calm wouldn't be top 3 ZvP, probably Top 5-7. NO, Calm is definitely top 3. There is no other player that I would place above him except for Jaedong and maybe Effort if he plays well this year. ZerO's ZvP is superior. So is Kwanro's. Calm is (far) better at the other matchups, but not this one.
Kwanro? That's borderline ridiculous, given that it's a 50% matchup for pikachu. Kwanro's ZvStork has been pretty good, but that's really not that impressive.
I'd say the top two ZvP players right now potentially are probably by.hero and ZerO, but they're both (especially by.hero) a little bit specialists. They're also both kind of inconsistent - to identify the real top three, imo it's really a question of how you rank Jaedong, EffOrt, and Calm.
For myself? I like Calm best, I'd say he's the #2 Zerg, and I personally think ZvP is his best matchup - but I feel like he's not as deadly as Jaedong (witness the way he got destroyed by Jangbi, something JD's game sense would have seen coming three miles away). I'm kind of an EffOrt anti-fan, so even though his ZvP record is kind of amazing I still feel like he doesn't have a standout performance that really defines him as a ZvP master. So I say Jaedong, Calm, Effort. Then ZerO, July and by.hero can round out a top six and then you're pretty much just throwing names at the list and hoping they stick.
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Efforts #1 Zerg blahblah was more the outcry of a million CJ fans which wanted their Neo-Savior :p.
One BO5 does not make someone better than someone that delivered over a way longer time with way better results/leaguewins. Especially not in a matchup like ZvZ where the slightest mistake can cost you everything.
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Bearded Elder29905 Posts
Predictable.
Current Voting Streak 8 Correct votes in a row
Hottest Voting Streak 10 Correct votes in a row
Dun, dun, dun !
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On October 16 2009 20:57 baubo wrote:Man, LOVED the first game. Finally some twist in PvZ play. Show nested quote +On October 16 2009 20:47 Plexa wrote:
The Mutalisk harass put him behind for sure - but he made the same mistakes as Pusan did against yCh (who did counter the harass effectively with DA) - he let Zerglings kill his expansions and hence left him economically fucked (while the Zerg is economically fine).
The game was pretty even until then imo How was the game even? He let the zerg get 4 bases before he can get his 3rd. The food count was basically even(and it looked like Backho cut probes too since his army looks pretty big compared to food). Plus hydra/lurker/ling pretty much rapes zealot/goon army. That said, I agree that he should've played defensive, and at least put a few lots/temps at his expansions to protect against lings. Calm was only on 3 gas - so even though calm had 4 bases it wasn't too bad. Backho was ahead by 20 psi pretty much the whole game and indeed, he won the big battle at the end of the game - but since his econ got raped there was no way he could reinforce or anything. Backho just needed to secure those two top bases and the top left and stop calm from taking the center. Equal gas protoss can fight equal gas Zerg most of the time (especially with reavers) and I think there was enough play left in the game for it to go either way.
Calm never exploited his earlier advantage when he did kill all of Backhos stormers, and as a result Backho was able to escape the "danger zone" of being massed by hydra and catch up. He was behind for sure, but it was sufficiently close that it could have gone either way still.
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Norway1530 Posts
Samurai Champloo is awsome!
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Jaedong
Calm
Effort
is how I'd go right now.
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If Calm can beat Bisu/Stork and Flash/Fantasy in a bo3 he'd prove himself for me. ZvZ and beating non S-class players are not enough when we have Jaedong.
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On October 17 2009 00:02 valaki wrote:
If Calm can beat Bisu/Stork and Flash/Fantasy in a bo3 he'd prove himself for me. ZvZ and beating non S-class players are not enough when we have Jaedong.
bo3s are nothing
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Wasn't much of a rape, considering all three games were really good and really close.
If Backho's playing this good this season, to put up a tough 1-2 against the second best zerg and ace player for the arguably strongest team, then Oz may be in better shape than most of us thought, too. It's good to see Backho churning out competitive and enjoyable games.
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On October 17 2009 00:33 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Wasn't much of a rape, considering all three games were really good and really close.
If Backho's playing this good this season, to put up a tough 1-2 against the second best zerg and ace player for the arguably strongest team, then Oz may be in better shape than most of us thought, too. It's good to see Backho churning out competitive and enjoyable games.
vouch this. backho really seems to have improved considerably. and remember: if jaedong wins his game, a single further win by backho would be enough to bring it to the ace.
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On October 17 2009 00:44 Black Gun wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2009 00:33 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Wasn't much of a rape, considering all three games were really good and really close.
If Backho's playing this good this season, to put up a tough 1-2 against the second best zerg and ace player for the arguably strongest team, then Oz may be in better shape than most of us thought, too. It's good to see Backho churning out competitive and enjoyable games. vouch this. backho really seems to have improved considerably. and remember: if jaedong wins his game, a single further win by backho would be enough to bring it to the ace.
Where Killer will be sent out, and Oz loses the match!
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konadora
Singapore66363 Posts
not really a surprising result :p
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On October 17 2009 00:52 konadora wrote:
not really a surprising result :p
But a surprising series!
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On October 17 2009 00:50 Zinbiel wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2009 00:44 Black Gun wrote:On October 17 2009 00:33 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Wasn't much of a rape, considering all three games were really good and really close.
If Backho's playing this good this season, to put up a tough 1-2 against the second best zerg and ace player for the arguably strongest team, then Oz may be in better shape than most of us thought, too. It's good to see Backho churning out competitive and enjoyable games. vouch this. backho really seems to have improved considerably. and remember: if jaedong wins his game, a single further win by backho would be enough to bring it to the ace. Where Killer will be sent out, and Oz loses the match!
That decision is quite possibly the most confusing decision ever made, all categories.
But yeah, Oz are quite strong in a Bo5. JD is almost guaranteed to win both his game and an eventual ace game (JD fanboy, hell yeah), so it's enough if one of Hiya/Lomo/Backho (who are all decent players) takes a game. They're also strong in KOTH format. But in a Bo7 they're fucked.
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konadora
Singapore66363 Posts
WTF
Backho vs Calm game 1 is SO SICK OMG
NEO-ANYTIME
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On October 17 2009 00:59 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On October 17 2009 00:50 Zinbiel wrote:On October 17 2009 00:44 Black Gun wrote:On October 17 2009 00:33 TwoToneTerran wrote:
Wasn't much of a rape, considering all three games were really good and really close.
If Backho's playing this good this season, to put up a tough 1-2 against the second best zerg and ace player for the arguably strongest team, then Oz may be in better shape than most of us thought, too. It's good to see Backho churning out competitive and enjoyable games. vouch this. backho really seems to have improved considerably. and remember: if jaedong wins his game, a single further win by backho would be enough to bring it to the ace. Where Killer will be sent out, and Oz loses the match! That decision is quite possibly the most confusing decision ever made, all categories. But yeah, Oz are quite strong in a Bo5. JD is almost guaranteed to win both his game and an eventual ace game (JD fanboy, hell yeah), so it's enough if one of Hiya/Lomo/Backho (who are all decent players) takes a game. They're also strong in KOTH format. But in a Bo7 they're fucked.
PL playoffs showed us Oz can take it 3-3 in a Bo7 without JD winning.
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On October 17 2009 02:06 konadora wrote:
WTF
Backho vs Calm game 1 is SO SICK OMG
NEO-ANYTIME
O'rly ? xD
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godddd i just watched game 2... WHY DIDNT YOU KILL THOSE EGGS BACKHOOOOOOOOOOO WRY!!
he could have killed an overlord and saved 2 shuttles. then the reavers definitely would have had enough time to kill either the spire or those 2 hatches. he might have even supply blocked calm if he killed that overlord egg.
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EPT
