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Hundredth
United Kingdom142 Posts
On July 26 2009 03:33 pangshai wrote: I'm not sure what "strategy" entails, Broad term but I mean knowing how to react to variations of builds, different approaches to the mid-game, timing your expansions/tech correctly etc. Basically all the small nuances as well as the obvious things like 2 Fac Tank > HydraLurk > SKTerran | ||
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YPang
United States4024 Posts
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evanthebouncy!
United States12796 Posts
On July 26 2009 07:33 YPang wrote: strategy isn't hard to learn, its just a few memorized stuff, but mechanics is much more important, why do you think there are progamers that can win games but lose at really top levels/ (therock) its cuz their mechanics is straight up good but they are fucken stupid. That's just horribly wrong What you're describing is "copy a build order from someone else", and not strategy and you contradict yourself saying that "good mechanics is straight up good for some player and yet they lose game because they're stupid", implying that strategy is waht kept these gamers from progressing. For Op: You want to "have a plan", may it be a plan of your own or someone else's, I believe that's what you call "strategy". You CAN copy a building order from someone else, that's fine, and you can use your own, which is fine also. What is important, though, is that you MUST have a plan in mind. If you want a higher apm you should instead of thinking "click faster" you should really "think faster" such as "I'm going to expand and make these kind of units and position them over there", as your strategy demands you to do more, you'd have to move faster, and improves your mechanics as a result. | ||
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kemoryan
Spain1506 Posts
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GhostKorean
United States2330 Posts
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Black Gun
Germany4482 Posts
and the better ur mechanics are the more strategies u can perform successfully. but on the other hand doing what u do in a good way is pointless if u make the wrong decisions in the first place. ur crazy muta micro wont help u if u decide to stay with mutas while ur opponent already has 5 archons. id rank it like that: big strategy > mechanics > small strategy. if u see a 5pool or a dt rush u must know the proper response, no mechanics in the world can save u if u dont go for the appropriate counters. mechanics on the other hand can easily compensate little mistakes like eg building a cannon too much or too few or choosing a unit mix that is slightly off balance. strategy and mechanics improve and condition each other. focusing on only one of them is no good idea. | ||
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Ilikestarcraft
Korea (South)17732 Posts
 Rock and still win with superior mechanicsBut usually you need to have a general ideaof what you're doing first. Basic safe build order unit composition and then focus on your mechanics. | ||
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Black Gun
Germany4482 Posts
On July 26 2009 08:55 Ilikestarcraft wrote: and the other way around you can play as dumb as Rock and still win with superior mechanicsBut usually you need to have a general ideaof what you're doing first. Basic safe build order unit composition and then focus on your mechanics. this is simply wrong. even if a progamer plays like a robot and isnt very smart in adapting to unknown or uconventional situations he knows all the basic strategies, their timings, their counters and so on. if u dont try some really weird shit a guy like rock does choose an appropriate strategy. the thing about mechanics being the superior factor for the success as a progamer is that after 10 years u simply cant outplay ur pro opponents on a regular basis. in the long run u wont be able to compensate really lacking mechanics by superior strategy. this is not true for d and c ranks on iccup. the strategical decision-making differs much more on the chobo level than it does between pros. | ||
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vlaric
United States412 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=78677 There's also a liquipedia article that I think might find what you're looking for: http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/How_to_practice I hope this helped. | ||
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Tehinf
United States192 Posts
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PH
United States6173 Posts
Strategy is an application of mechanics. | ||
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ghermination
United States2851 Posts
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Diomedes
464 Posts
On July 26 2009 05:21 Jonoman92 wrote: imo strategy comes first, you can't really have mechanics without having strategy. Huh? Mechanics can be done by a robot. It's the easiest to learn and has the most payoff. First you have to learn what you should be doing, You can't know what you should be doing if you don't get any feedback. If you lose because of mechanics you can't say anything about your strategy. You can't learn to adjust it. And you can't just 'know'. You have to learn through experience through D+ and above games. Only way to learn strategy is by winning and losing games on a level beyond basic mechanics. It's really 'you can't run before you walk' and you are claiming you can't learn to walk before you know how to run. | ||
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Knickknack
United States1187 Posts
strategy = gameplan...decisions made in game. They can each limit the other. You can know what you want to do, but cant. You can do more than what you know what to do. Its a complex relationship. This end was inevitable due to how I defined the terms. Artosis said that the game is being more and more mapped out. This means that more of the same kind of strategies are being used. And this means it is easier for a player to realize and learn better strategies. The whole community is doing a part in figuring out good strategy, but mechanics is a personal thing that must come down to individual effort and talent. This seems to me a plausible reason why mechanics are said to be more important than strategy. Also, as I have mentioned before, good mechanics are something that can be relied on every game, while strategy is related to factors of chance in a game. And as I have seen others suggest, once you have good mechanics that can actually open up more strategical opportunities to the mind as possible, while better strategical thinking does not open up better mechanics to the mind as possible? -------------- v "They (yes even the top ones) are simply clueless on strategy." Thats not fair, but if you want to change it to "often clueless on high level strategy" or somesuch ... meh ... why not. | ||
Ver
United States2186 Posts
Before doing anything however you need to have basic macro down. You need to be able to execute a basic build efficiently: that means constant peon production, not missing supply, and consistent macro early game. That is priority number one. After that it is up to you. Frankly working on one intensely at a time is probably the most optimal (strategy first) rather than trying to split effort between them. | ||
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YPang
United States4024 Posts
On July 26 2009 08:20 evanthebouncy! wrote: That's just horribly wrong What you're describing is "copy a build order from someone else", and not strategy and you contradict yourself saying that "good mechanics is straight up good for some player and yet they lose game because they're stupid", implying that strategy is waht kept these gamers from progressing. heh thats not what i meant, i mean like if you spot a cyber turning, as to when you spot a cyber staying idle you'd know what to do. I'm pretty sure as of right now for D/D+/C ranks if you memorize a few case scenarios you can pretty much win. Thats what i meant ;o... Its especially true for TvZ... Other than that its just mechanics and multitasking creating multiple dropships and harrassing and shit... but yes i did contradict myself, i did it on purpose. I mean that players like Rock can be a progamer on PURE mechanics and little strategy thats why they are not TOP player. You can be a decent player in foreign scene too if you got top notch mechanics but no strategy. | ||
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Batibot
Philippines348 Posts
On July 26 2009 02:08 Hundredth wrote: At my level what would you recommend I should be focusing on - mechanics or strategy? By mechanics I mean mass gaming while consciously working on a certain mechanic and strategy watching replays and comparing the higher level play to your own. I quoted you to show that strategy should come first. You should watch other players, read guides. You have to know what you're doing, how to do it properly before you master it. In case, people don't know, your late-game management is driven by your strategy. Strategy is how you play the game, how you think. If you just practice mechanics, you'd be building wrong units at the wrong time. You should therefore try to practice one MU first and practice one "standard" build as it's supposed to be safe-to-all and depends on how you adapt to your opponents' strategies. Mechanics will come as you mass games trying to understand the ins and outs of one build in one MU. Don't believe those people telling you that mechanics make you win. It's wrong. Yes, it makes you win. But, when a player slightly deviates from the "standard" and you still play like a robot with only a few "options" or strategies to his arsenal, you'd lose because you don't know how to adapt. Strategy is the base knowledge of StarCraft. You'd learn how to build your buildings properly, know the proper responses first. Since you have a strategy, you know what to do. Think of it as strategy is the blueprint. You need it to build a good house, to be a good player. If your blueprint is bad, you have to alter it again. But, with mechanics, think of it as your building materials. Little by little, you get to build your house but, you don't want to start off using the wrong blueprints. | ||
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EEEE1234
Canada55 Posts
Stage 1: most basic strategy Learn 1-2 builds (one aggressive, one economical) first. Ex: TvP, learn to play 2-fact push and 1-fact CC; PvZ only needs you to know forge-FE Logistics: 1 base hydra fails no matter how good your mechanics are...unless your opponent is D- or did a 14CC or something that leaves them with no defense Stage 2: moderately good mechanics When I say moderately good, I mean a bit better than "moderate." I mean... - consistently avoids POP-block (psi-lock) - opening BO timings are near perfect (not that hard) - gets good saturation in minerals whenever it's the best option (since some situations require to sac econ a bit) - doesn't let the cash pile up - micro is better than 1a2a3a Logistics: Good strategy doesn't win and cannot properly be executed without correct "calculation" and precise play. You might get your 2-1 at the right time Stage 3: more builds and learn to adapt better Get a better understanding of the game and that great rule of balance in StarCraft, all the strategic and tactical advantages, and then learn new builds and what the builds are supposed to do. Your mechanics will transfer directly into the new builds. Logistics: Once your mechanics are good, you can't get past the next stage without game sense. You need to be able to figure out "he went overboard with the tech. I'll put down 3 more gateways and run him over" or "my expo is difficult to defend and he's committed too much of his army. I'll sac this expo, counter at his natural and push straight into his main." After that point, you can work on either one, but to be top-level you'll need both strategy and mechanics. Your strategy will be accurate enough to put up a good fight against the opponent, and your mechanics will probably be sufficient to follow through with your strategy. | ||
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fearus
China2164 Posts
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JMave
Singapore1806 Posts
On July 26 2009 02:10 JoMal wrote: When your mechanics are good, you can execute any strategy. Yes this. This is the best answer yet. Many players like myself are stuck at D simply due to the lack of mechanics. You may have a powerful strategy but you may not have that mechanical ability to carry it out. | ||
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