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[Q] Mechanics or Strategy First?

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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Hundredth
Profile Joined November 2008
United Kingdom142 Posts
July 25 2009 17:08 GMT
#1
So being a D/D+ Zerg I've been wondering/asking which area I should be focusing in to improve in the fastest way and although I know this thread's going to be pretty inconclusive (people who focus on strategy will say.. strategy and vice versa) I thought it'd be helpful to know the reasons behind each.

At my level what would you recommend I should be focusing on - mechanics or strategy? By mechanics I mean mass gaming while consciously working on a certain mechanic and strategy watching replays and comparing the higher level play to your own.

JoMal
Profile Blog Joined April 2006
Trinidad/Tobago1177 Posts
July 25 2009 17:10 GMT
#2
When your mechanics are good, you can execute any strategy.
Oh you mad cause i'm stylin on you
trickser
Profile Joined October 2006
Germany139 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-25 17:17:02
July 25 2009 17:14 GMT
#3
I think you should focus on mechanics. On D/D+ Level one solid build with good mechanics can beat almoast anything that is executed with bad mechanics.

So for example for zvp you can play
9overpool speed into 3hatch scourge into 5 hatch hyds, and just practise getting the timing right, not having larva overflow, not missing overloards and microing big amounts of hydras.
Since this build is really robust and gives you alot of map control and gets scouting done easily you dont have to worry about strategy too much.

Same for zvt and zvz. Choose a very solid buildorder and just practise your micro, macro, timing and multitasking.
Heart Catch Pre-Cure. Saa Mina De! Heart Catch Pre-Cure Hanasaka Seyo!
][-][eretic
Profile Joined March 2004
Canada395 Posts
July 25 2009 17:19 GMT
#4
On July 26 2009 02:10 JoMal wrote:
When your mechanics are good, you can execute any strategy.


More or less, right. Without the proper mechanics, even a superior tactic will fall to a player who can execute a worse strategy at a much higher level. I believe Day[9] speaks about this in his Podcasts. You can find his Podcast thread in the Strategy forum, I strongly suggest listening to them, as most of it deals with non-race specific details that can benefit anyone regardless of skill.
Hi :)
Batibot
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Philippines348 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-25 17:23:40
July 25 2009 17:20 GMT
#5
I guess you'll develop it all at the same time. Read guides and try to take in what you can. It's better if you get someone to teach/tutor you. I mean to do builds for you like you're studying how to react to non-"standard" play each day. Because it'd be useless to have the mechanics to use a BO if you don't know what is it for. What does it do, what build counters it? It counters what build?

Imo, you just have to practice first fighting "standard" with "standard" but, there are so many "standards" that you should know how to react to each of them. Therefore, you should rather practice one build order (that would improve your mechanics and strategy at the same time), you should know how to react to what he does. Basically, what I'm trying to say is that:

Strategy first. Know first the ins and outs one "standard" play for one matchup then, you'll be able to map out the game in that MU. You have to know why you're doing it not just because the pros do it. When you know what you're gonna do, you can carry it out short of perfect and that's why you mass games then to perform it like a robot.
Jaedong has to be a Bonjwa. Tired of of rooting for July.
coltrane
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Chile988 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-25 17:57:03
July 25 2009 17:56 GMT
#6
you need to play and have experience to learn strategy


I think the best starting point is stick into standard build orders and work in your mechanics. Work hard in your hotkey usage and in your macro.

I suggest you to play 12 pool every match with D ppl and look all of your games with the bwchart. Try to get the best timings on the build order, discover and solve it. You will lose to better strategy much, but you will learn. Then start adding build orders and focus always on mechanics
Jävla skit
GreEny K
Profile Joined February 2008
Germany7312 Posts
July 25 2009 18:00 GMT
#7
Mechanics first, this is the basic building block of SC, you have to know how to keep money low while at the same time having large income. Get units, buildings, all while microeing and keeping tabs on your opponent. Micro macro get good at both and then you will be able to use any build orders really because its just timing and different supply that you have to worry about.
Why would you ever choose failure, when success is an option.
MiniRoman
Profile Blog Joined September 2003
Canada3953 Posts
July 25 2009 18:02 GMT
#8
Just make sure to always watch your own reps. Sometimes it's painful but you can gain a lot of insight of why things happened. I would say practice a couple builds you like and hammer them out. Strategy and mechanics are always tied together.
Nak Allstar.
Iaaan
Profile Joined June 2009
Canada578 Posts
July 25 2009 18:21 GMT
#9
Mechanics. I've been beaten many times by people with extremely bad strategies, but then they still manage to win with superior micro/macro. Like, get a general sense of what to do in each matchup, but then from there your mechanics will win you more games at the D level then a precise strategy.
pangshai
Profile Blog Joined January 2005
Chinatown5333 Posts
July 25 2009 18:33 GMT
#10
I'm not sure what "strategy" entails, but I think working on your mechanics first is always the way to go. If your mechanics suck, it doesn't matter if you have decent strategy. Lets take an extreme example, you opening 2 hatch mutas, and your terran opens with drop that fails cause your mutas rape it. You then proceed to fly your mutas into his main, and do a fuck lot of damage, taking out SCVs and marines, but he eventually stops the harass with vessels. Back at your base, you're still on 2 hatch, and you've built up a surplus of 4K minerals on just 20 mining drones.

I'm teaching a bunch of my irl friends to play SC, and I tell them that a good build vs protoss as zerg is 3 hatch lair --> spire --> 5 hatch hydra, which was the standard a while back. So reviewing that opening/strategy, spire = scourge = prevent sair harass, then macro up on drones, while adding 2 hatcheries and getting hydra upgrades and lots of hydras to stop the toss 3rd. My friends all have that basic understanding, but every game they try to do it, they end up with 2 groups of hydras 15 minutes into the game with 5K minerals on 3 base.
#1 midas fan
x89titan
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
Philippines1130 Posts
July 25 2009 18:56 GMT
#11
learn the strategy. mechanics will come as u learn it.

example:
strategy: i have to get 3 groups of zealots to attack at one time while storm dropping.
solution: group zealots and dropship and templar quickly ctrl + 1, 2, 3, 4, 5....1a2a3a zealots into nat, 4u dropship into mineral line, 5t on workers
Heaven came down and glory filled my soul, when at the cross the Savior made me whole
unknown.sam
Profile Joined May 2007
Philippines2701 Posts
July 25 2009 19:07 GMT
#12
mechanics for sure
at d level, i believe good mechanics will win you a lot of games
"Thanks for the kind words, but if SS is the most interesting book you've ever read, you must have just started reading a couple of weeks ago." - Mark Rippetoe
Gogleion
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
United States534 Posts
July 25 2009 19:11 GMT
#13
In my opinion, it would be best to work on one for a while and then switch around so you have a leap frogging situation because they benefit each other, and it would be unwise to bottleneck strategy over mechanics or vice versa.
EffOrt. That is all.
dhe95
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States1213 Posts
July 25 2009 19:32 GMT
#14
IMO you learn mechanics from playing, and strategy from watching. So more likely than not you'll be learning both, but you need strong mechanics more than strong strategy to win on iccup.
gjg.instinct
Profile Joined May 2009
144 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-25 20:43:44
July 25 2009 19:55 GMT
#15
Both require the other to win. This is kind of like asking "learn to walk with my left leg or right leg first?" Having said that, mechanics will probably require more practice and time to master.

I think a lot of decent-expert level players would remark that mechanics are more important and it's "how the koreans win" etc. etc. I agree in that having solid mechanics is a deeper and higher aspiration in the game.
Chef
Profile Blog Joined August 2005
10810 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-25 20:19:06
July 25 2009 19:59 GMT
#16
Strategy. Your mechanics will improve automatically as you practice strategies and get better and better. You'll also win a lot more.

If there's one specific mechanic that is giving you trouble you can work really hard to fix it and then go back to strategy, but don't just focus on mechanics or you'll become a very bad and boring player. What I mean by a specific mechanic, is something like muta micro, or muta vs scourge, or M&M vs lurkers. If you have trouble with those, you NEED to learn them on your own so that during a game you can be confident when the situation calls for it. But basic things like macro and general unit control should come naturally.

EDIT: Let me also just add this: At its very root, StarCraft is a game of risk, greed, and punishment. No amount of mechanics can ever overcome that. At the D levels, many players complain about being cheesed, but that's not what's happening. What's happening is that they're not scouting, and they're being punished for it. They're getting frustrated because although the guy that cheesed them had 100 apm and much worse mechanics, he still won, somehow 'unfairly.' If you don't want to be another one of those fairy boys who whines when they get outwitted, learn strategy over mechanics. Learn to punish players who don't scout, who don't build enough cannons, who don't prepare for what you can do. That doesn't mean 4pool every game... That's not strategy. It means if you see 3 cannons and he doesn't have a scout outside his base, go all in lings and rape his shit. There's no reason to play some 'standard' 3 hatch muta build when you know you will win if you just act now.
LEGEND!! LEGEND!!
Mortality
Profile Blog Joined December 2005
United States4790 Posts
July 25 2009 20:08 GMT
#17
Starcraft is about both. If you feel like mechanics is your weakness, then focus on that. If you feel like strategy is your weakness (most people don't realize when their strategy is bad, but in general, if your builds are bad, if your timing is always off, if your opponents are always predicting what you do, then your strategy is bad), then focus on that. And if both suck and you can't tell which one is worse, then either mass game until they get good or quit.
Even though this Proleague bullshit has been completely bogus, I really, really, really do not see how Khan can lose this. I swear I will kill myself if they do. - nesix before KHAN lost to eNature
Geo.Rion
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
7377 Posts
July 25 2009 20:16 GMT
#18
i'd say practice one normal build for each MU (like 3h-spire into 5h-hydra, 2h-muta), untill you are doing it almost perfectly. The different situations you will face will teach you quite a lot, you will eventually improve your micro and macra, you will learn to react to scouting info.
Remember, if you lose it was probably because:
1. You didn't macro well. did not have enough drones or hatches.
2. You screwed up your build
3. Did not react to scouting info properly, or did not scout properly
4. Your opponent is actually 2 ranks higher than you...

At least 30% of your losses come from point 4., if you have the stamina to keep playing and you focus on the first 3 points, you will improve.

Also practice muta with UMS. It helps. Even if you practice only as warmup befor iccup game. It's good, cuz you use your mtuas in every MU.
"Protoss is a joke" Liquid`Jinro Okt.1. 2011
sixghost
Profile Blog Joined November 2007
United States2096 Posts
July 25 2009 20:19 GMT
#19
On July 26 2009 02:10 JoMal wrote:
When your mechanics are good, you can execute any strategy.

If only your mechanics are good, you will execute the same strategy you copied from a replay despite what you are scouting, then get run over by noobs who don't play exactly how you are used to.
mG.sixghost @ iCCup || One ling, two ling, three ling, four... Camp four gas, then ultra-whore . -Saracen
Jonoman92
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
United States9103 Posts
July 25 2009 20:21 GMT
#20
imo strategy comes first, you can't really have mechanics without having strategy. First you have to learn what you should be doing, then once you know what you should do you work on improving your mechanics so you can pull off the sick multi-tasking and perfect macro while microing your harassment.
Hundredth
Profile Joined November 2008
United Kingdom142 Posts
July 25 2009 21:57 GMT
#21
On July 26 2009 03:33 pangshai wrote:
I'm not sure what "strategy" entails,


Broad term but I mean knowing how to react to variations of builds, different approaches to the mid-game, timing your expansions/tech correctly etc. Basically all the small nuances as well as the obvious things like 2 Fac Tank > HydraLurk > SKTerran
YPang
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
United States4024 Posts
July 25 2009 22:33 GMT
#22
strategy isn't hard to learn, its just a few memorized stuff, but mechanics is much more important, why do you think there are progamers that can win games but lose at really top levels/ (therock) its cuz their mechanics is straight up good but they are fucken stupid.
sMi.Gladstone | BW: B high| SC2: gold T_T
evanthebouncy!
Profile Blog Joined June 2006
United States12796 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-25 23:22:48
July 25 2009 23:20 GMT
#23
On July 26 2009 07:33 YPang wrote:
strategy isn't hard to learn, its just a few memorized stuff, but mechanics is much more important, why do you think there are progamers that can win games but lose at really top levels/ (therock) its cuz their mechanics is straight up good but they are fucken stupid.

That's just horribly wrong
What you're describing is "copy a build order from someone else", and not strategy
and you contradict yourself saying that "good mechanics is straight up good for some player and yet they lose game because they're stupid", implying that strategy is waht kept these gamers from progressing.

For Op:
You want to "have a plan", may it be a plan of your own or someone else's, I believe that's what you call "strategy". You CAN copy a building order from someone else, that's fine, and you can use your own, which is fine also.
What is important, though, is that you MUST have a plan in mind. If you want a higher apm you should instead of thinking "click faster" you should really "think faster" such as "I'm going to expand and make these kind of units and position them over there", as your strategy demands you to do more, you'd have to move faster, and improves your mechanics as a result.
Life is run, it is dance, it is fast, passionate and BAM!, you dance and sing and booze while you can for now is the time and time is mine. Smile and laugh when still can for now is the time and soon you die!
kemoryan
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Spain1506 Posts
July 25 2009 23:32 GMT
#24
Once you know basic concepts of starcraft strategies, both strategy and mechanics should be improved at the same time to get better the fastest way possible. Working only on one will slow you down.
Freedom is a stranger
GhostKorean
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States2330 Posts
July 25 2009 23:49 GMT
#25
I've had tons of people beat me with superior strategy even though I had better mechanics. As long as your mechanics are not terrible it's possible to win a match with better knowledge of the matchup
Black Gun
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Germany4482 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-25 23:54:48
July 25 2009 23:53 GMT
#26
the thing is: the better ur mechanics are the more time u got during the game to think about ur strategy. (yy, pros practiced so much that they dont have to consciously think about anything, but D players definitely will)

and the better ur mechanics are the more strategies u can perform successfully. but on the other hand doing what u do in a good way is pointless if u make the wrong decisions in the first place. ur crazy muta micro wont help u if u decide to stay with mutas while ur opponent already has 5 archons. id rank it like that:

big strategy > mechanics > small strategy.

if u see a 5pool or a dt rush u must know the proper response, no mechanics in the world can save u if u dont go for the appropriate counters. mechanics on the other hand can easily compensate little mistakes like eg building a cannon too much or too few or choosing a unit mix that is slightly off balance.


strategy and mechanics improve and condition each other. focusing on only one of them is no good idea.

"What am I supposed to do against this?" - "Lose!" :-]
Ilikestarcraft
Profile Blog Joined November 2004
Korea (South)17727 Posts
July 25 2009 23:55 GMT
#27
and the other way around you can play as dumb as a (P)Rock and still win with superior mechanics

But usually you need to have a general ideaof what you're doing first. Basic safe build order unit composition and then focus on your mechanics.
"Nana is a goddess. Or at very least, Nana is my goddess." - KazeHydra
Black Gun
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Germany4482 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-26 00:02:21
July 26 2009 00:01 GMT
#28
On July 26 2009 08:55 Ilikestarcraft wrote:
and the other way around you can play as dumb as a (P)Rock and still win with superior mechanics

But usually you need to have a general ideaof what you're doing first. Basic safe build order unit composition and then focus on your mechanics.



this is simply wrong. even if a progamer plays like a robot and isnt very smart in adapting to unknown or uconventional situations he knows all the basic strategies, their timings, their counters and so on.

if u dont try some really weird shit a guy like rock does choose an appropriate strategy. the thing about mechanics being the superior factor for the success as a progamer is that after 10 years u simply cant outplay ur pro opponents on a regular basis. in the long run u wont be able to compensate really lacking mechanics by superior strategy.


this is not true for d and c ranks on iccup. the strategical decision-making differs much more on the chobo level than it does between pros.
"What am I supposed to do against this?" - "Lose!" :-]
vlaric
Profile Blog Joined July 2007
United States412 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-26 08:20:50
July 26 2009 00:16 GMT
#29
I think this has been already discussed at length in this thread:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=78677

There's also a liquipedia article that I think might find what you're looking for:

http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/How_to_practice

I hope this helped.
Wannabe zerg player
Tehinf
Profile Joined September 2008
United States192 Posts
July 26 2009 00:19 GMT
#30
i'd say mechanics? because if you had no mechanics but u know a build order, that won't help u against a macro genius
"Good, better, best. Never let it rest until your good is better, and your better is best."
PH
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
United States6173 Posts
July 26 2009 00:38 GMT
#31
Raw mechanics first. Learn how to do things properly. Learn how to micro properly, learn how to macro properly, learn how to build your first pylon exactly when you need to, etc.

Strategy is an application of mechanics.
Hello
ghermination
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States2851 Posts
July 26 2009 00:45 GMT
#32
Mechanics DEFINATELY. A terran with amazing macro but who is such a robot that they have no outlet for strategic expression, or even free thought, whatsoever (Idra), is still much better than any cheesy terran/zerg/protoss who has an amazing strategy.
U Gotta Skate.
Diomedes
Profile Joined March 2009
464 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-26 00:59:34
July 26 2009 00:48 GMT
#33
Mechanics.


On July 26 2009 05:21 Jonoman92 wrote:
imo strategy comes first, you can't really have mechanics without having strategy.


Huh? Mechanics can be done by a robot. It's the easiest to learn and has the most payoff.


First you have to learn what you should be doing,


You can't know what you should be doing if you don't get any feedback. If you lose because of mechanics you can't say anything about your strategy. You can't learn to adjust it. And you can't just 'know'. You have to learn through experience through D+ and above games.

Only way to learn strategy is by winning and losing games on a level beyond basic mechanics.

It's really 'you can't run before you walk' and you are claiming you can't learn to walk before you know how to run.
Knickknack
Profile Joined February 2004
United States1187 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-26 02:27:44
July 26 2009 00:52 GMT
#34
mechanics = ability to carry out a strategy
strategy = gameplan...decisions made in game.
They can each limit the other.
You can know what you want to do, but cant.
You can do more than what you know what to do.
Its a complex relationship.
This end was inevitable due to how I defined the terms.

Artosis said that the game is being more and more mapped out. This means that more of the same kind of strategies are being used. And this means it is easier for a player to realize and learn better strategies. The whole community is doing a part in figuring out good strategy, but mechanics is a personal thing that must come down to individual effort and talent. This seems to me a plausible reason why mechanics are said to be more important than strategy. Also, as I have mentioned before, good mechanics are something that can be relied on every game, while strategy is related to factors of chance in a game. And as I have seen others suggest, once you have good mechanics that can actually open up more strategical opportunities to the mind as possible, while better strategical thinking does not open up better mechanics to the mind as possible?

--------------
v "They (yes even the top ones) are simply clueless on strategy."
Thats not fair, but if you want to change it to "often clueless on high level strategy" or somesuch ... meh ... why not.
| www.ArtofProtoss.vze.com |
Ver
Profile Joined October 2008
United States2186 Posts
July 26 2009 02:01 GMT
#35
Foreigners actually have pretty good mechanical skill. They (yes even the top ones) are simply clueless on strategy. Strategy goes beyond copying build orders (although you have to know the right ones to copy and nearly all foreigners don't), as it includes game sense (foreseeing how the game plays out and predicting the opponent's move) and decision making (extremely important).

Before doing anything however you need to have basic macro down. You need to be able to execute a basic build efficiently: that means constant peon production, not missing supply, and consistent macro early game. That is priority number one.

After that it is up to you. Frankly working on one intensely at a time is probably the most optimal (strategy first) rather than trying to split effort between them.
Liquipedia
YPang
Profile Blog Joined April 2007
United States4024 Posts
July 26 2009 02:08 GMT
#36
On July 26 2009 08:20 evanthebouncy! wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 26 2009 07:33 YPang wrote:
strategy isn't hard to learn, its just a few memorized stuff, but mechanics is much more important, why do you think there are progamers that can win games but lose at really top levels/ (therock) its cuz their mechanics is straight up good but they are fucken stupid.

That's just horribly wrong
What you're describing is "copy a build order from someone else", and not strategy
and you contradict yourself saying that "good mechanics is straight up good for some player and yet they lose game because they're stupid", implying that strategy is waht kept these gamers from progressing.


heh thats not what i meant, i mean like if you spot a cyber turning, as to when you spot a cyber staying idle you'd know what to do. I'm pretty sure as of right now for D/D+/C ranks if you memorize a few case scenarios you can pretty much win. Thats what i meant ;o...

Its especially true for TvZ... Other than that its just mechanics and multitasking creating multiple dropships and harrassing and shit...

but yes i did contradict myself, i did it on purpose. I mean that players like Rock can be a progamer on PURE mechanics and little strategy thats why they are not TOP player. You can be a decent player in foreign scene too if you got top notch mechanics but no strategy.
sMi.Gladstone | BW: B high| SC2: gold T_T
Batibot
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Philippines348 Posts
July 26 2009 02:15 GMT
#37
On July 26 2009 02:08 Hundredth wrote:
At my level what would you recommend I should be focusing on - mechanics or strategy? By mechanics I mean mass gaming while consciously working on a certain mechanic and strategy watching replays and comparing the higher level play to your own.

I quoted you to show that strategy should come first. You should watch other players, read guides. You have to know what you're doing, how to do it properly before you master it. In case, people don't know, your late-game management is driven by your strategy. Strategy is how you play the game, how you think. If you just practice mechanics, you'd be building wrong units at the wrong time. You should therefore try to practice one MU first and practice one "standard" build as it's supposed to be safe-to-all and depends on how you adapt to your opponents' strategies.

Mechanics will come as you mass games trying to understand the ins and outs of one build in one MU. Don't believe those people telling you that mechanics make you win. It's wrong. Yes, it makes you win. But, when a player slightly deviates from the "standard" and you still play like a robot with only a few "options" or strategies to his arsenal, you'd lose because you don't know how to adapt. Strategy is the base knowledge of StarCraft.

You'd learn how to build your buildings properly, know the proper responses first. Since you have a strategy, you know what to do. Think of it as strategy is the blueprint. You need it to build a good house, to be a good player. If your blueprint is bad, you have to alter it again. But, with mechanics, think of it as your building materials. Little by little, you get to build your house but, you don't want to start off using the wrong blueprints.
Jaedong has to be a Bonjwa. Tired of of rooting for July.
EEEE1234
Profile Joined June 2009
Canada55 Posts
July 26 2009 06:26 GMT
#38
I'm not that great of a player, but my suggestion is as follows:

Stage 1: most basic strategy
Learn 1-2 builds (one aggressive, one economical) first. Ex: TvP, learn to play 2-fact push and 1-fact CC; PvZ only needs you to know forge-FE
Logistics: 1 base hydra fails no matter how good your mechanics are...unless your opponent is D- or did a 14CC or something that leaves them with no defense

Stage 2: moderately good mechanics
When I say moderately good, I mean a bit better than "moderate." I mean...
- consistently avoids POP-block (psi-lock)
- opening BO timings are near perfect (not that hard)
- gets good saturation in minerals whenever it's the best option (since some situations require to sac econ a bit)
- doesn't let the cash pile up
- micro is better than 1a2a3a
Logistics:
Good strategy doesn't win and cannot properly be executed without correct "calculation" and precise play. You might get your 2-1 at the right time

Stage 3: more builds and learn to adapt better
Get a better understanding of the game and that great rule of balance in StarCraft, all the strategic and tactical advantages, and then learn new builds and what the builds are supposed to do. Your mechanics will transfer directly into the new builds.
Logistics: Once your mechanics are good, you can't get past the next stage without game sense. You need to be able to figure out "he went overboard with the tech. I'll put down 3 more gateways and run him over" or "my expo is difficult to defend and he's committed too much of his army. I'll sac this expo, counter at his natural and push straight into his main."

After that point, you can work on either one, but to be top-level you'll need both strategy and mechanics. Your strategy will be accurate enough to put up a good fight against the opponent, and your mechanics will probably be sufficient to follow through with your strategy.
지지이이이이이이이이이이이
fearus
Profile Blog Joined December 2003
China2164 Posts
July 26 2009 07:21 GMT
#39
BOs are strategy not mechanics.
bisu fanboy
JMave
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Singapore1803 Posts
July 26 2009 07:41 GMT
#40
On July 26 2009 02:10 JoMal wrote:
When your mechanics are good, you can execute any strategy.


Yes this. This is the best answer yet. Many players like myself are stuck at D simply due to the lack of mechanics. You may have a powerful strategy but you may not have that mechanical ability to carry it out.
火心 Jealous. I always loved that feeling when I was young. Embrace it.
AttackZerg
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States7454 Posts
July 26 2009 08:37 GMT
#41
I think playing very low eco strategys is a great way to first start playing and building skill.

2 hat hydra-3hathydra-2hat muta-3hat ling all in 5 pool into macro ect .... then you learn micro mechanics and are forced to execute them well on a mechanical level for the strategys to even have a chance of paying off.

Macro mechanics are more important then any strategy at this phase of broodwar imo.
Batibot
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Philippines348 Posts
July 26 2009 09:10 GMT
#42
It's better to play standard because you only need to study one build though it's a more complex build than 5pool or 2 hat hydra at least, you get to have a good shot even your opponent is good in defending low-econ play. + There's a difference between low-econ play and all-in. Imo, 2 hat hydra is all-in and 5pool too. Because, you have to rely on your opponent not knowing what you're doing. And it's hard to deal enough damage if your opponent already scouted. Going standard involves micro/multitasking too. You have to keep your scout alive, try to scout for proxies while killing your opponent's scout.
Jaedong has to be a Bonjwa. Tired of of rooting for July.
Saikyun
Profile Joined July 2009
Sweden20 Posts
July 26 2009 12:31 GMT
#43
I think both are rather important. Without mechanics, you're screwed, since you lose whatever you do, but if you don't know how to respond to different things (which can be quite a lot of different things) you're also screwed. I think it's a good idea to know why you lost a game though. If you don't, try to figure it out, and then try not losing that way again.
Batibot
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Philippines348 Posts
July 26 2009 12:45 GMT
#44
The point here is that if you're starting to play Starcraft, you should focus on strategy, which entails: watching vods of pros and reading guides and whatnot. You have to know what you're doing first before you practice doing it. You have to learn the basics of addition first before you try practicing your addition skills. YOU HAVE TO KNOW THE GAME FIRST BEFORE TRYING TO MASTER IT.
Jaedong has to be a Bonjwa. Tired of of rooting for July.
Metallingus
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Philippines468 Posts
July 26 2009 14:44 GMT
#45
On July 26 2009 21:45 Batibot323 wrote:
The point here is that if you're starting to play Starcraft, you should focus on strategy, which entails: watching vods of pros and reading guides and whatnot. You have to know what you're doing first before you practice doing it. You have to learn the basics of addition first before you try practicing your addition skills. YOU HAVE TO KNOW THE GAME FIRST BEFORE TRYING TO MASTER IT.


This, end of discussion. Can't shoot that fadeaway if you can't make a jumpshot in the first place. Strategy comes with what you can and cannot do based on mechanics. No use flanking an M&M blob if your micro is crap or you don't have the units to do it in the first place because of bad macro.
Overcome all. Especially plateaus.
csfield
Profile Joined October 2008
United States206 Posts
July 27 2009 00:56 GMT
#46
You don't have to choose between working on mechanics or strategy. That's a false dichotomy. Why argue about whether your heart or lungs are more important? You need both.

The best way to improve is to play the same solid BO over and over.

Your skill in handling your units will improve along with your understanding on how to adapt to what your opponent does.
I know that I have never once considered how my TV viewing habits impact the progression of civilization. --Bibbit
doubleupgradeobbies!
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
Australia1187 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-27 02:35:48
July 27 2009 02:25 GMT
#47
If your already at D/D+ then I assume you have a baseline of mechanics and strategic knowledge to work with.

In which case play a few games until you have a few losses. Then analyse the primary reason for those losses and determine whether strategic or mechanical failure is leading to more losses. Work on your weak point until they other one is causing more of your losses and switch over etc.

Seems pretty obvious to me. Everyone is going to have different weaknesses so there is no blanket answer or which one is more useful as you obviously need both of them. Switching periodically between both would insure you mature into a well rounded player. Being weak in either department is going to hold you back significantly.

If you can't determine which is holding you back more, just work on strategy, since you said you'll be doing it via mass gaming, in which case your mechanics should improve anyway. Once you start losing lots of games primarily due to not being able to execute strategies then you can switch over.
MSL, 2003-2011, RIP. OSL, 2000-2012, RIP. Proleague, 2003-2012, RIP. And then there was none... Even good things must come to an end.
Batibot
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Philippines348 Posts
July 27 2009 04:43 GMT
#48
On July 27 2009 09:56 csfield wrote:
You don't have to choose between working on mechanics or strategy. That's a false dichotomy. Why argue about whether your heart or lungs are more important? You need both.

The best way to improve is to play the same solid BO over and over.

Your skill in handling your units will improve along with your understanding on how to adapt to what your opponent does.

You can choose on what to focus on first. If you choose, strategy first: you read guides, watch vods, then play. If you choose mechanics first, you do micro maps, you play and play.

What I want to convey to you is that if you don't know what you're doing, don't know what to build, which unit counters which, you should focus on strategy first. You read guides first (focus on strategy first) and apply it to your game then, you play and play and practice in micro maps (mechanics). That way, you can have the BASE knowledge of the game, you know why you do this. You know the art of war, flanking, positional advantage, strategical advantage, tactical advantage etc. You should read this. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=60601 especially this.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=36778
Jaedong has to be a Bonjwa. Tired of of rooting for July.
Foucault
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
Sweden2826 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-30 15:25:21
July 30 2009 15:24 GMT
#49
On July 26 2009 02:10 JoMal wrote:
When your mechanics are good, you can execute any strategy.


THIS.

Many foreigners are totally inadequate when it comes to mechanics, which results in them getting dominated by more mechanically sound koreans.


For example, learn how to fucking build units while you're attacking. Don't come back after the fight to find 2k minerals that you could have used while fighting.
I know that deep inside of you there's a humongous set of testicles just waiting to pop out. Let 'em pop bro. //////////////////// AKA JensOfSweden // Lee Yoon Yeol forever.
azndsh
Profile Blog Joined August 2006
United States4447 Posts
July 30 2009 15:34 GMT
#50
fastest way to improve is mechanics first... strategy can be learned later, but mechanics is just lots and lots of practice
nttea
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Sweden4353 Posts
July 30 2009 16:28 GMT
#51
easy! first learn basic strategy, but don't delve very far into it. Then learn basic>advanced mechanics. This is if you want to enjoy a reasonably fast skill improvement curve. If you want to become the best you can possibly be at a point in the future but don't want to have much fun on the way you should focus purely on the mechanics.
wok
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States504 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-30 22:14:48
July 30 2009 18:24 GMT
#52
I have a ridiculously high apm (relative to my win rate)when I'm paying attention, and in such cases, I can safely say my mechanics are passable. I still lose 80% of my games though.
I'll race you to defeatism... you win.
Kyadytim
Profile Joined March 2009
United States886 Posts
July 30 2009 18:51 GMT
#53
Mechanics first. If you focus on strategy first, you'll practice those strategies with wrong mechanics and build wrong habits, which you then need to break to improve your mechanics.
Bad strategic decisions made in a game while learning mechanics will be directly punished in that game, so they're less likely to become habits.

Additionally, it's far easier to find help on improving strategy than on improving mechanics, because other people can look directly at your strategy.
DarkSaieden
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
South Africa254 Posts
July 31 2009 07:41 GMT
#54
first memorize the bo against comp on and learn the standard flows of common variatons. then you can work on mechanics and pick up the nuances with experience
DarkSaieden
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
South Africa254 Posts
July 31 2009 07:43 GMT
#55
first memorize the bo against comp on and learn the standard flows of common variatons. then you can work on mechanics and pick up the nuances with experience
Stimpacked
Profile Joined June 2008
Philippines368 Posts
July 31 2009 08:27 GMT
#56
choose p, build a lot of gateways and 1a2a3a4a5a.. thats it.
live and let live...
FirstBorn
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
Romania3955 Posts
July 31 2009 09:32 GMT
#57
If you're a terran user then you should bassically choose 1-2 build orders for each much practice your mechanics a lot. Once you're mechanincs are solid you will be able to execute crazy shit and improvise better.

Same applies to the other races, but to a lesser extent.
SonuvBob: Yes, the majority of TL is college-aged, and thus clearly stupid.
ReCharge
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Philippines505 Posts
July 31 2009 10:30 GMT
#58
On July 26 2009 02:14 trickser wrote:
I think you should focus on mechanics. On D/D+ Level one solid build with good mechanics can beat almoast anything that is executed with bad mechanics.

So for example for zvp you can play
9overpool speed into 3hatch scourge into 5 hatch hyds, and just practise getting the timing right, not having larva overflow, not missing overloards and microing big amounts of hydras.
Since this build is really robust and gives you alot of map control and gets scouting done easily you dont have to worry about strategy too much.

Same for zvt and zvz. Choose a very solid buildorder and just practise your micro, macro, timing and multitasking.


As long as the build doesn't involve cheese .
David Kim for Bonjwa!
Batibot
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Philippines348 Posts
July 31 2009 10:36 GMT
#59
On July 31 2009 03:51 Kyadytim wrote:
Mechanics first. If you focus on strategy first, you'll practice those strategies with wrong mechanics and build wrong habits, which you then need to break to improve your mechanics.
Bad strategic decisions made in a game while learning mechanics will be directly punished in that game, so they're less likely to become habits.

Additionally, it's far easier to find help on improving strategy than on improving mechanics, because other people can look directly at your strategy.

No, you're wrong. Like what others said, you practice, practice, practice to get your mechanics right. If you learned how to do the things the wrong way, you're gonna suck hard.

Let's say: You learned that Lurkers are a good counter to mech T. You always go Lurks on a mech T. You practiced it over and over again that you know the best way to micro them against mech. But, it's still wrong, you'd still lose to mech. If you KNOW (strategy) what you're doing and why you're doing it the right way. Battling mech with a hydramuta army, you get used to it. You always now use hydramuta against mech and therefore, you get adept at microing a hydra muta army while you can still macro. In SC, you can't just rely on only ONE bread-and-butter build. There's no such thing as that one solves-all build. Yes, you can master the 12 hatch opening. But, you have to deviate to get to your late-game depending on what your opponent is doing. You can't have ONE build order that still guides you to late-games because you have to ADAPT.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You're missing the point. As I see it, first years of SC/progaming: They're developing strategies. Now, it seems like mechanics is so important because, that's what separates the korean pros vs foreigner pros. But, we're not foreigner pros. We haven't really gone in-depth on the strategic part of SC. An extreme situation would be something like this. You learned as a child to walk with your arms. Yeah, it's a nice feat but, our legs are much stronger than our arms and should be used for walking because it's better used for walking than arms. You don't want to learn walking with your feet when you're already about 6 years old. You have to walk with your feet the first time you learned to walk because it's the right way.
Jaedong has to be a Bonjwa. Tired of of rooting for July.
Bifur
Profile Blog Joined August 2007
Russian Federation1208 Posts
July 31 2009 11:20 GMT
#60
Should you focus on your left hand or on your right hand?
Batibot
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Philippines348 Posts
July 31 2009 11:29 GMT
#61
On July 31 2009 20:20 Bifur wrote:
Should you focus on your left hand or on your right hand?

You need to focus on both. Like when you kick, you need to learn how to kick with both feet, you need to learn how to use mouse with both hands too.
Jaedong has to be a Bonjwa. Tired of of rooting for July.
Stimpacked
Profile Joined June 2008
Philippines368 Posts
July 31 2009 12:09 GMT
#62
Let's say: You learned that Lurkers are a good counter to mech T. You always go Lurks on a mech T. You practiced it over and over again that you know the best way to micro them against mech. But, it's still wrong, you'd still lose to mech. If you KNOW (strategy) what you're doing and why you're doing it the right way. Battling mech with a hydramuta army, you get used to it. You always now use hydramuta against mech and therefore, you get adept at microing a hydra muta army while you can still macro. In SC, you can't just rely on only ONE bread-and-butter build. There's no such thing as that one solves-all build. Yes, you can master the 12 hatch opening. But, you have to deviate to get to your late-game depending on what your opponent is doing. You can't have ONE build order that still guides you to late-games because you have to ADAPT.


-you're wrong lurkers are still good before vessels come out.. hold lurkers are great too.. opening 3hatch muta and directly researching lurkers before speed and range is very effective.
live and let live...
G3nXsiS
Profile Joined July 2009
United States656 Posts
July 31 2009 12:32 GMT
#63
Definitely Mechanics. If you have the mechanics any strategy is possible for you. However in order to have good mechanics you need to know what you are doing first. In other words you need to go in with a gameplan.
Hope is the first step on the road to dissapointment
Batibot
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Philippines348 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-07-31 14:55:46
July 31 2009 14:53 GMT
#64
@Stimpacked: I said you learned that the GOOD counter to mech is lurker which means that you BELIEVE that your army should be composed mainly of lurkers which we know sucks against tanks/mech.

On July 31 2009 21:32 G3nXsiS wrote:
Definitely Mechanics. If you have the mechanics any strategy is possible for you. However in order to have good mechanics you need to know what you are doing first. In other words you need to go in with a gameplan.

See, you need to focus on strategy first.
Jaedong has to be a Bonjwa. Tired of of rooting for July.
qaswedfr25
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States212 Posts
July 31 2009 15:55 GMT
#65
If you're D, just memorize one good build order very well and improve your mechanics. Don't bother with fancy shit, you'll learn the ins and outs of your build with each successive game and learn to adapt better to cheeses and whatnot with that one build.

Liquipedia is helpful in this regard.
G3nXsiS
Profile Joined July 2009
United States656 Posts
July 31 2009 16:40 GMT
#66
On July 31 2009 23:53 Batibot323 wrote:
@Stimpacked: I said you learned that the GOOD counter to mech is lurker which means that you BELIEVE that your army should be composed mainly of lurkers which we know sucks against tanks/mech.

Show nested quote +
On July 31 2009 21:32 G3nXsiS wrote:
Definitely Mechanics. If you have the mechanics any strategy is possible for you. However in order to have good mechanics you need to know what you are doing first. In other words you need to go in with a gameplan.

See, you need to focus on strategy first.



Strategy and gameplan is different. Maybe I didn't phrase it right but when I talk about gameplan, Im talking about things like building placement and hotkeys.
Hope is the first step on the road to dissapointment
Batibot
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Philippines348 Posts
August 01 2009 02:30 GMT
#67
On August 01 2009 01:40 G3nXsiS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 31 2009 23:53 Batibot323 wrote:
@Stimpacked: I said you learned that the GOOD counter to mech is lurker which means that you BELIEVE that your army should be composed mainly of lurkers which we know sucks against tanks/mech.

On July 31 2009 21:32 G3nXsiS wrote:
Definitely Mechanics. If you have the mechanics any strategy is possible for you. However in order to have good mechanics you need to know what you are doing first. In other words you need to go in with a gameplan.

See, you need to focus on strategy first.



Strategy and gameplan is different. Maybe I didn't phrase it right but when I talk about gameplan, Im talking about things like building placement and hotkeys.

So, you need to know how to place your buildings and which units/buildings go to which hotkeys? But, you don't know what to make and what to build?

When I think of gameplan, I think of what would your late-game plan is and what things would you do in early-game to accomplish it. ZvT, you want to run on 4~5 bases and get good econ and nice macro to finish off your T opponent. Now, your "final" army will depend on what your opponent's army or opening is. If you see him, going bio, you want ultraling. If he went mech, you want hydralurk. Before, you get to having 4~5 bases. You need to learn timing windows and when you can get map control to expo.

P.S.: Let's say there's only strategy and mechanics, where would you classify gameplan based on your statement?

Strategy and gameplan is different. Maybe I didn't phrase it right but when I talk about gameplan, Im talking about things like building placement and hotkeys.
Jaedong has to be a Bonjwa. Tired of of rooting for July.
icystorage
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Jollibee19347 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-08-01 04:41:38
August 01 2009 04:39 GMT
#68
mechanics or basics imo, without them, computers(AI) would own you

basics are the fundamentals, you need to master them first. knowing the basics would get you out of D level imo
LiquidDota StaffAre you ready for a Miracle-? We are! The International 2017 Champions!
Exteray
Profile Blog Joined June 2007
United States1094 Posts
Last Edited: 2009-08-01 05:31:03
August 01 2009 05:30 GMT
#69
It really depends on which one you're weaker on ;-)

for example i have pretty good control + micro/macro and i have higher apm than most D/D+..
yet i can't break D+ because i am very lacking in strategy
Probe.
Profile Joined May 2009
United States877 Posts
August 01 2009 06:01 GMT
#70
Definately mechanics first unless your a brilliant strategist and you know how to play with peoples minds.
meow
LxRogue
Profile Blog Joined March 2007
United States1415 Posts
August 01 2009 06:16 GMT
#71
Mechanics and strategy are pretty vague terms, but here's how i like to think about practicing.

You have to start somewhere, and i think some kind of strategy, game plan, or build order needs to come first. It can be specific or general, but you need some goal for the flow of the game, or else you'll never achieve it.

Say you are playing ZvT, and you really want to work on your micro. What micro? At what point in the game? Where on the map? Deciding things like this will help you improve so much. Say you want to work on lurker/ling micro, and you want to attack the terran in the mid-game before his push comes at his natural expansion.

So you try to do it, multiple times. It's going to fail sometimes, maybe all of the time at first, but keep trying it. Each time you do it, you recognize something to do differently. Maybe you need more zerglings. Maybe you need an extra hatchery, or maybe your upgrade timing is bad. Maybe you'll get a better feel for the simple macro.

This method of practicing is what got me started playing competitively. You can take builds that are deemed unconventional or weak, and make them twice as powerful just by practicing the timing and mechanics of each build.
ChaseR
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Norway1004 Posts
August 01 2009 06:32 GMT
#72
Why not both? Why does it have to be one or the other? Should I focus on training harder or eating smarter? Both in conjunction will give better results, same for mechanics and strategy together they complement each other.
Life is not Fucking Fair and Society is not Fucking Logical - "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
Batibot
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Philippines348 Posts
August 01 2009 09:08 GMT
#73
The OP is asking on what he needs to focus on MORE.
Jaedong has to be a Bonjwa. Tired of of rooting for July.
pyrogenetix
Profile Blog Joined March 2006
China5094 Posts
August 01 2009 10:07 GMT
#74
imo both

no seriously because having only mechanics can get you only that far in sc. if you dont have the strats down in your mind then you still wont be playing your potential.

however, dont focus too much on mechanics, just good enough that you are able to play. obviously there are strats that require high apm like bisu build and sair reaver etc that require you to multitask a lot and keep units alive.

just work on both.
Yea that looks just like Kang Min... amazing game sense... and uses mind games well, but has the micro of a washed up progamer.
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