I've looked into many walling guides but none of them go into detail about the exact sizes of units and buildings. They all just say "this building and this building placed like this block this and that". That's swell if you're just looking at the practical side of it, but I've always wondered how precisely it works.
With liquipedia launching yesterday I thought it would be the perfect timing to contribute with something I haven't seen anywhere else. So this last night I spent 5 hours measuring the exact sizes of all buildable buildings and units, except for neutral buildings and special units, though I could have measured those as well if I wanted to...
The way I did this was: (no need to read the instructions below unless you're curious or want to do it too) + Show Spoiler +
1-Use a regular mapmaker (without stacking, snapping buildings to the grid) to plot down all sorts of buildings you want to analyze, in any type of map, doesn't matter because you're not going to play in it. 2-Save, close, and open up that map on "Starcraft X-tra Editor", classic mode. Set it to show the matrix grid. This editor shows the true "physical" boundaries for every building and unit as you are placing them, but at the same time it doesn't feature the ability of placing buildings aligned to the grid, so that's why step 1 is necessary.. 3- Select a building from the palette, hover over the building in the map, make sure it's exactly on top, and take a screenshot. (print screen) 4- Open up the screenshot with whatever image program you want, even mspaint is good enough for this. Ctrl+v, zoom up, and count how many pixels the building boundary is away from the grid, on each side. Using the select tool helps also. (...) 5- Repeat from 3, selecting another building, and another, and another, until you're done. 5- This is easier to do with units since you don't have to align nothing at all and you only need to hover it around and screenshot. Measuring just the dimensions is faster as well.
Of course this is extremely inefficient, a better way would be to take that info directly from the starcraft MPQ or wherever the unit and building sizes may be, but time is something I have plenty so why not do it the painful and repetitive way? (I didn't even check the MPQs before devoting hours into this...)
There is only one concern with this procedure - I'm not even sure if this SC X-tra editor even draws the unit sizes from the MPQ, because the forge boundaries were screwed up (it was taking like 10x2 matrices) and I had to download a patch to fix it. So if it turns out this editor is taking these values from elsewhere then this is only as accurate as whoever set these values in the editor wanted them to be... which may be real bad or just perfect, I don't know. Didn't verify enough myself just yet. "Source" material: + Show Spoiler +
Used DatEdit to extract the dimension and area info from the unit.dat inside the .mpq's. Parsed the data with this python script: (no indentation here) if you want to download the code to test/edit, it's at http://www.sendspace.com/file/0shrsw + Show Spoiler +
# unitsizes.py - Starcraft building and unit sizes parser
I've only measured the space missing from a full matrix grid Remember one matrix, 1x1, is 32 pixels wide and 32 pixels high, or 32x32 (px)
So for example, a supply depot which is built in an area of (32*3)x(32*2) or 96x64 (px) But that doesn't really matter much. What we really want to know are the size of the gaps. The supply got a gap of 6 pixels at the top, 10 pixels to the left, 9 to the right, and 5 pixels below.
The format of this list is: name top left right bottom matrices
Edit: If you're looking for a place in liquipedia you could add each unit's "collision size" into each unit's "bio" that's already been made, same for buildings, if such a page exists for each building. There's also a walling page, maybe you could put it somewhere in there?
Good idea, I'll put it in the walling page for now, damnit, it's too much work to do it the right way. I think the right way would be to put this info on every building and unit page but damn that would not only take a while but also would have to change the template layout for units/buildings a little and idk if mere users can do that.
My hatred for Protoss was projected into that mistake, that's the robotics facility, and now that you mentioned it I realize I skipped the support bay.
Yes but theres tons of cliffs to test out and it would take forever to test it the way I'm doing it. That's why it's much easier to test it yourself on every map you're playing on. I'm sure there must be an algorithmic way to figure it all out but I'm too much of a script kiddie to code something on my own for that purpose. Maybe in the near future.
terrain cliifs and such are filled to the matrix right? so a barracks next to a cliff will have a 15 pixel gap underneath? nvm, it might vary now that i think about it
Cliffs are weird as hell I just can't test on them, with buildings its easy because some map editors show the boundaries and all but cliffs, some look like they've got curved gaps and it's a lot more irregular, so I don't know... but to answer you, no they're not necessarily filled to the square. Thats as far as I'm getting to, for now at least
normal users can't edit the template, and most of the admins can't edit them becuase they don't know how...(black magic).
Um, we should be able to add this to the template, hopefully soon. PM me if it doesn't get added in the next 2 weeks or so (added onto every unit - intothewow already said he would add it tonight...)
thanks alot for this man. better than any wall guide ever. i have always wanted this. as the saying goes... "teaching fisherman is better than just giving out fish"
On June 09 2009 03:25 GHOSTCLAW wrote: normal users can't edit the template, and most of the admins can't edit them becuase they don't know how...(black magic).
Um, we should be able to add this to the template, hopefully soon. PM me if it doesn't get added in the next 2 weeks or so (added onto every unit - intothewow already said he would add it tonight...)
For cliffs, open up SCMDraft2 and go into unit mode. Select any Building and a gray layer will show all unbuildable tiles, those are always 32x32 of course. Select any ground unit and it will show the unwalkable minitiles. Every tile is made up of 16 minitiles (8x8pixels), and each of those can be unwalkable individually.
In the old tilesets, unwalkability goes nicely along with the design, in the broodwar tilesets blizzard was quite sloppy and made really weird shapes...
On June 09 2009 04:22 spinesheath wrote: For cliffs, open up SCMDraft2 and go into unit mode. Select any Building and a gray layer will show all unbuildable tiles, those are always 32x32 of course. Select any ground unit and it will show the unwalkable minitiles. Every tile is made up of 16 minitiles (8x8pixels), and each of those can be unwalkable individually.
In the old tilesets, unwalkability goes nicely along with the design, in the broodwar tilesets blizzard was quite sloppy and made really weird shapes...
I did not know that! Thank you for pointing that out! It's still hard but it's 50x easier if the map editor shows you the good stuff already. Plus it's only blocks of 8x8, I thought those were curves down to the 1x1 when I tried to "feel" it...
I checked a few of your numbers in DatEdit and they generally match up. Marine, SCV, Command Center, and Sunken Colony are all the same, but the Supply Depot had different numbers. DatEdit says it should be 10 on left, 9 on right, 10 on top (here it differs), and 5 on bottom.
I made a quick map with a supply, creep, supply built vertically and tested it with a zergling; the ling could not pass above the creep and under a supply (to be expected, for a 13 pixel gap and a 16 pixel ling) but could pass under the creep and above a supply (18 pixel gap using DatEdit's numbers, but only a 14 pixel gap using your numbers). I will go through and check the other numbers in a little bit if no one beats me to it.
If the dat file says that, it's most certainly correct! x-tra editor sucks. My entire data is compromised. I might as well just do it right this time and use that to verify everything (something I should have done from the start)
Ok, I checked the others. Here are the ones DatEdit disagrees on: Broodling, 19x19 Carrier, 64x64 Spawning Pool, 7 on right, 13 on bottom Pylon, 20 on top, 16 on left Assimilator, 4x2 (not really a DatEdit disagreement, just a typo) Arbiter Tribunal, 4 on left, 3 on right Robotics Support Bay, 16 on left, 15 on right (I think you just reversed these) Supply Depot, 10 on top (I already mentioned this one) Science Facility, 10 on top
Since DatEdit gives unit dimensions as left/right/up/down offsets from a center pixel which is oriented to the lower right of the center of a grid, I had to jump a lot of little mental math hoops to check the numbers. I tried to be careful, but I could always have messed up somewhere. Hope this helps.
On June 09 2009 06:05 SirNukes wrote: Ok, I checked the others. Here are the ones DatEdit disagrees on: Broodling, 19x19 Carrier, 64x64 Spawning Pool, 7 on right, 13 on bottom Pylon, 20 on top, 16 on left Assimilator, 4x2 (not really a DatEdit disagreement, just a typo) Arbiter Tribunal, 4 on left, 3 on right Robotics Support Bay, 16 on left, 15 on right (I think you just reversed these) Supply Depot, 10 on top (I already mentioned this one) Science Facility, 10 on top
Since DatEdit gives unit dimensions as left/right/up/down offsets from a center pixel which is oriented to the lower right of the center of a grid, I had to jump a lot of little mental math hoops to check the numbers. I tried to be careful, but I could always have messed up somewhere. Hope this helps.
Rofl I know, I'm still stuck trying to figure out the Command Center dimensions, and that one is right I kinda figured there had to be an extra pixel for the center, but I thought it was aligned to the upper left? Oh never mind, I got it backwards. It's bottom right alright because less pixels to the upper left makes it have a wider gap (by 1 pixel...) I'm gonna update the stuff with your numbers, and try to double check them myself.
Ok, using DatEdit now. I manually (noooo) put down all the pertinent building dimensions in a list and parsed it using my leet python skillz (lol). The result is this list which may be exact save typing errors as I typed the database in: + Show Spoiler +
Also, what are the measurements for the "stairs" doodad? I've always wanted to see them used in a map but no mapmaker has ever been brave enough to use them, the only thing close was the narrow ramps (in peaks of baekdu, i think)
On June 09 2009 17:18 CharlieMurphy wrote: Is it possible to find the collision sizes of an assimilator on the top left edge of the map as well as netutral assimilators?
The collision sizes are the same no matter what player owns it, or where it is. But remember that these are the gaps only when the building has been built locked to the grid, I reckon some maps put neutrals in some places where it's not aligned to the grid, so the gaps may be shifted (i.e wider gap to the bottom/left, narrower to the top/right)
On June 10 2009 01:11 ghermination wrote: Also, what are the measurements for the "stairs" doodad? I've always wanted to see them used in a map but no mapmaker has ever been brave enough to use them, the only thing close was the narrow ramps (in peaks of baekdu, i think)
Which stairs on what terrain? I could take a screenshot for you but you could also see it for yourself with the Scmdraft2 editor. There's no exact dimensions, the unwalkable and unbuildable areas are like a bad mspaint drawing (using an 8x8 brush)
On June 09 2009 17:18 CharlieMurphy wrote: Is it possible to find the collision sizes of an assimilator on the top left edge of the map as well as netutral assimilators?
The collision sizes are the same no matter what player owns it, or where it is. But remember that these are the gaps only when the building has been built locked to the grid, I reckon some maps put neutrals in some places where it's not aligned to the grid, so the gaps may be shifted (i.e wider gap to the bottom/left, narrower to the top/right)
On June 10 2009 01:11 ghermination wrote: Also, what are the measurements for the "stairs" doodad? I've always wanted to see them used in a map but no mapmaker has ever been brave enough to use them, the only thing close was the narrow ramps (in peaks of baekdu, i think)
Which stairs on what terrain? I could take a screenshot for you but you could also see it for yourself with the Scmdraft2 editor. There's no exact dimensions, the unwalkable and unbuildable areas are like a bad mspaint drawing (using an 8x8 brush)
An assimilator on the top left edge of the map even place in regular campaign editor will allow zerglings (and maybe ghost?) to walk behind it. Check out bloodbath
Oh, btw can we get collision size for minerals and geyser?
On June 10 2009 06:36 CharlieMurphy wrote: An assimilator on the top left edge of the map even place in regular campaign editor will allow zerglings (and maybe ghost?) to walk behind it. Check out bloodbath
Oh, btw can we get collision size for minerals and geyser?
By behind, do you mean on the left side? Assimilators on the grid have a 16 pixel gap on the left, so they don't need special map-edge dimensions to explain zerglings (16 wide) and ghosts (15 wide) fitting. It looks like the OP already updated with mineral and geyser info (no gaps for either of them on any side).
I just tried to get them behind with the layout you described and I couldn't do it Only through the left side. There seems to be a pathing issue when it's in the corner like that but if you move the zerglings a certain way you can do it.
On June 10 2009 13:26 CharlieMurphy wrote: edit- and SirNukes, it doesn't work on any other edge of the assim for any other side edge of the map. Only left side left edge of map.
According to the list, a ghost will fit between the assimilator and the right map edge; a quick test confirms it. This list is looking pretty accurate in practice.
For Ebay/addon, it depends on the addon since they have various dimensions as well as which side the addon is on. I think what you are looking for is a Control Tower, Covert Ops, or Physics Lab (-15 pixels on the left) to the right of the Ebay (15 pixels on the right), leaving zero gap. Addons spill over to the grids on their left, making them unwalkable but not unbuildable (I did just test this); the rest can be seen from the list and quick addition.
Well mainly the scarab, eggs, and mines, but it is kind of important to know about critters because some time they get in the way. Im guessing larva has like 1x1 or something because you can pretty much walk over them.
btw, my friend was wondering if there is a place between a CC and a Barrack that a marine can hold position invincibly versus a zealot. Zealots have a bit of range so I am not sure but I think there is if you hold at just the right spot.
I hadn't thought of it, but you're right, it could be useful, especially for scarabs. I thought they were smaller but they're not that small, 5x5. Terrans still don't have that much choice but zergs and protosses can potentially wall-off their mineral lines almost completely, or at least partially using certain buildings, to make reaver harass less efficient.
Larvae are somewhat underground (elevation level 2, units and buildings are all at level 4) so it doesn't really matter what size they have.. unless you want to like, block it with other larva.
Scanner Sweep has a sight range of 10 matrices if anyone cares. Idk how sight ranges work exactly.
Here's the updated list with everything but heroes and dummy/unused/unimportant (in my judgement) units. I notice some units have weird gaps but that's not my fault, it's a discrepancy between the StarEdit placement box and it's real dimensions. If you're looking at a unit (not a building) just ignore the gaps, look at the last column which is what counts. If anyone spots something wrong I can fix it of course...
On June 11 2009 03:45 CharlieMurphy wrote: btw, my friend was wondering if there is a place between a CC and a Barrack that a marine can hold position invincibly versus a zealot. Zealots have a bit of range so I am not sure but I think there is if you hold at just the right spot.
Yes there is, place the Barracks directly on the right of the CC and you can run a marine right into the middle of the gap that's left and zealots can't touch it.
Since a barracks has a true height of 73 (cc 83), you could fit at most 3 marines without getting hit (60). zealots need immediate contact to hit, 0px range. nvm, I just tested, looks like they do have some range, even tho datedit doesnt say it. I could fit two marines easily though
Here's the updated list with everything but heroes and dummy/unused/unimportant (in my judgement) units. I notice some units have weird gaps but that's not my fault, it's a discrepancy between the StarEdit placement box and it's real dimensions. If you're looking at a unit (not a building) just ignore the gaps, look at the last column which is what counts. If anyone spots something wrong I can fix it of course...
I am a little confused on what you mean here, so I will take the firebat as an example of my confusion. On the first page, you have a firebat pictured as 23x22 using StarEdit; the datedit dimensions are 11,11,7,14, which matches up with the 23x22 size. The only sense I can make of your new 28x23 size is that maybe you mixed in Gui Montag's data; he has different dimensions than a standard firebat (11,11,13,14 = 23x28) and he does display the extra height in StarEdit.
All of the units in the first page picture who show up with gaps in the new list, dark templar, zealot, and high templar, also have their dimensions matching between DatEdit and that picture. Aldaris matches your 24x28 figure (different than normal templar and Tassadar who are 24x24), but the others have heroes with normal dimensions and do not match your data.
Edit: Oh, I found where you got those numbers in DatEdit, under the StarEdit tab and labeled Placement Box. Well, like I mentioned, Gui Montag displays a larger box than Firebats in the actual StarEdit (as he should according to the unit dimensions, though the DatEdit StarEdit tab says both should be 28x23). My guess: the 'StarEdit Placement Box' data is unused and left over from the development of SC1, before Blizzard decided to have boxes generated on the fly based on unit dimensions. The units with discrepancies between between their placement box and actual dimensions would be the ones whose size was modified after Blizzard stopped using the placement box data, so it wasn't updated. So I don't think any units have gaps, but rather some old data mucked with your calculations.
Yes. I know its garbage, thats why i said to ignore it. I didn't even look at the heroes, that's funny. And I didn't think about that but what you said is very plausible. I don't care either way tbh but nice thinking anyway.
The only thing that matters for walling, though, is the units front facing size. So to simplify things in a complete walling guide you should probably just list that.
For example, with Terran: Zealot/Workers: 23, Zergling 16, Marine 17.
It would also probably be cool for Zerg if they could make a wall for Zerglings to fit through, but not Marines. =D
If you think about it, most of these are useless, we're only concerned about the units with size less than a matrix. (32px) Those are the only ones that can possibly slide through between buildings.
Actually, looking back I see there might be places where full sized (Dragoon, Goliath, etc.) units can slide between, but I don't feel like it should. Can someone test a pylon to the left of a Citadel? Theoretically that's 39 units, which should be enough even for the Ultralisk, but I just don't see it as possible.
The only thing that matters for walling, though, is the units front facing size. So to simplify things in a complete walling guide you should probably just list that.
The whole thing is useless if you're looking at it from a strictly practical angle!
On June 11 2009 18:58 Qeet wrote: vultures fit through pylon-citadel and they're 32, won me countless games because protoss thought any building combination would block such big units
edit: another question what are the gaps of a mineralpatch or gas?
0 gaps on all sides for all patches and vespene geysers.
On June 11 2009 18:46 FaZ- wrote: The only thing that matters for walling, though, is the units front facing size. So to simplify things in a complete walling guide you should probably just list that.
I'm not quite sure what you mean, but a unit's width/height don't change based on their sprite if that is what you are thinking. And since walling is done horizontally and vertically, both width and height are needed.
A zergling passable, marine blocking wall is certainly possible, though I don't know about practical. Hatchery above evo/den above a sunken/den/evo line would do it if you can fit it tight against the terrain, for instance.
I had vague ideas about how this worked. I had no idea it was so precise. Thank you for your research, this is just the type of thing liquipedia needs to become the ultimate resource.
The only thing that matters for walling, though, is the units front facing size. So to simplify things in a complete walling guide you should probably just list that.
For example, with Terran: Zealot/Workers: 23, Zergling 16, Marine 17.
It would also probably be cool for Zerg if they could make a wall for Zerglings to fit through, but not Marines. =D
If you think about it, most of these are useless, we're only concerned about the units with size less than a matrix. (32px) Those are the only ones that can possibly slide through between buildings.
Actually, looking back I see there might be places where full sized (Dragoon, Goliath, etc.) units can slide between, but I don't feel like it should. Can someone test a pylon to the left of a Citadel? Theoretically that's 39 units, which should be enough even for the Ultralisk, but I just don't see it as possible.
I tested the pylon left to a citadel... and yes, even ultars can pass through... 30 sec long Rep with units passing through this gap...
I dunno if you guys can get this data, but I think it would be really useful to find the narrowest/widest point of ramps and what that size is. It's different for tilesets (maybe even some of the common upward ramps too).
Like everyone knows that the little hexagon shaped dirt in the middle of a jungle ramp is the narrow point and that 1 zealot there will hold off anything greater than 16x16 unit. But it could be useful to know how many ghosts or whatever and where to place if the situation came up in a game.
PS- What is the different between box size and real size?
PPS- Here is the updated pics (you forgot some units )
Hey how come my zealot SCV can move through some of these formations even though it says they are less than 23 ? Like the only bunker formation that can wall anything is the bunker below depot.
Hey how come my zealot SCV can move through some of these formations even though it says they are less than 23 ? Like the only bunker formation that can wall anything is the bunker below depot.
I'll update the ground units pic to match the fonts but I find it unecessary to have an image for every building, if you want however you can upload them yourself to liquipedia of course
EPT![[image loading]](http://img268.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tvu.png)
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