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konadora
Singapore66359 Posts
On May 17 2009 00:07 ghermination wrote:
i guess this would work pretty well but the problem is you have to go bionic vs. toss which is never really a good idea. But if you have the apm/feel like cheesing then go ahead.
No no, why does everyone think you have to go bionic? You can basically go 1 fact double, then get academy -> get scan + research flare + get medics and push with tank/vulture/medics/scvs (turrets or bunkers if needed) instead of tank/vulture/goliath with lower vulture/tank count.
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You could just play standard getting academy at normal time then make a few medics and research optical flare. Not that expensive.
Also could you also keep a medic in the main and blind the shuttle? That's expensive and would make it really vulnerable to turrets. Later game you could be blinding + emping arbs :D recall = no.
If you knew he was reaver/dt dropping maybe you could rush optical flare in time for that shuttle coming in.. blind the reaver too !?
Hmm... just got reavered to death before I even started teching it. You'd have to go acad before cc to even have a chance... gonna try some more 
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konadora
Singapore66359 Posts
Yeah exactly, that's why I'm thinking why isn't optic flare used so much early game. It sure doesn't cost that much, and isn't as hard to use (cast range, casting time, gas intensive) as Queen's ensnare.
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On May 16 2009 17:01 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2009 16:56 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
I think the reason this isn't good is that the 250 minerals, 150 gas you would spend on, say, a few medics + the upgrade can almost be used for3 goliaths instead if you neglect the time used building in the factory. These goliaths can disable both observers and shuttles as well as attack ground.
Flaring observers and hoping the protoss doesn't notice probably isn't a reliable strategy. It might work once in awhile but I think having a few goliaths around is so much better. I could be wrong, though - it would be very interesting to see players incorporating this into tvp. Yeah, except goliaths require armory as well, and the build time too. Also, goliaths -> less vultures.
You should be getting an armory anyway for upgrades. Medics also have research and build time.
Goliaths means fewer tanks, not vults - gollies are very gas intensive.
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konadora
Singapore66359 Posts
On May 17 2009 01:11 The Raurosaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2009 17:01 konadora wrote:On May 16 2009 16:56 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
I think the reason this isn't good is that the 250 minerals, 150 gas you would spend on, say, a few medics + the upgrade can almost be used for3 goliaths instead if you neglect the time used building in the factory. These goliaths can disable both observers and shuttles as well as attack ground.
Flaring observers and hoping the protoss doesn't notice probably isn't a reliable strategy. It might work once in awhile but I think having a few goliaths around is so much better. I could be wrong, though - it would be very interesting to see players incorporating this into tvp. Yeah, except goliaths require armory as well, and the build time too. Also, goliaths -> less vultures. You should be getting an armory anyway for upgrades. Medics also have research and build time. Goliaths means fewer tanks, not vults - gollies are very gas intensive.
Either way, since making goliaths still taking up queue in factory production.
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Game 1: Python: Me 12 him 9.
He made a zeal and forced me to pull some scvs because I didn't block. I made 4-5 marines and a tank, teched seige and made my 2nd cc on the spot. I starting making the academy shortly afterward. He proxied a robo and bay at 3 main and with 2 zeals he dropped me at around 6:00. I was completely unprepared and was destroyed with the followup 2 reaver drop.
My build was not very good... after making the cc I cut units + depots to try and fit acad in faster. It was still too late anyway for drop so I only succeeded in making myself powerless to defend against it. Never even teched optical flare or made a medic
Game 2: Python: Me 3 Him 9.
Did fact then acad build with block, 2 tanks, 0 marines then cc while he 1 gate expod. Had 2 medics and optical flare complete at 5:15, cc that I made safely behind block just about ready to float, maybe a full minute or so later than his expansion. He then took a quick third.
I was already pretty behind since he got his natural a lot faster than me then he went on to take top left corner. The two medics I made survived all game and blinded 4-5 obs and 3 arbiters. Pretty much everything he made that I could spot.. at one point he managed to get a non-blinded observer following my army but that didn't last for long. Although I was pretty far behind his macro was not that good and I made 7 factories 2 armories and managed to beat him, even though he was on 4-5 bases at one point vs my 2.
It seems too risky to do fact acad before cc for the 5:15 medics + blind because you are hoping he is dropping you with shuttle and if he doesn't, like what happened when I tried it out, you are way behind. Even if he did not sure it would actually do much anyway... you'd have to ebay and stuff as well really quick..
So nono for early game... but later?
Since you get gols + ups reasonably quickly or at least I try to and I usually vessel EMP anyway I really don't see how this medic + blind will be that useful.
Hope you find a way to make it work but... I don't see how 
edit: Actually it might work if you just research and make the 2 medics once you have your natural and keep 1 at each base and blind anything that comes near that you can see.
Use them defensively... they can also heal scvs damaged by the drop.. blind a reaver / dt / shuttle / arbiter... I reckon this would be the best way of using them as opposed to getting them early or attempting to use them offensively.
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Nada pulled a similar strategy to this back in 2004 or so. Medics w/ flare + cloaked wraiths vs. Carriers + obs. He ended up losing after like 40 minutes, though. :<
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konadora
Singapore66359 Posts
@Reason:
Yeah I'm suggesting using the flare ability once you are pretty okay on income, not squeezing out more resources for medics when you need tanks/vultures much much more.
@Lucktar:
I'm suggesting more for optic flare with mech army use against Protoss army haha
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thats great
he probably didn't even notice his observers were blinded...
and was like WTF when mines popped
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i think pro protoss user does notice tho.
after a obs being blinded the vision become like 1 hex small and unable to detect invisable unit.
if protoss keep eye on obs most time it will be spotted
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On May 16 2009 17:05 konadora wrote:
Yeah but the thing is, the medics helped me all the way until late game (vessels helped me save scan, then I just blinded all the observers)
JESUS A BIRD JUST SLAMMED INTO MY WINDOW
Was it okay? This happens to us all the time... Usually they're okay after a few minutes, but sometimes the neighbor's cat gets them so I usually go outside to make sure it survives.
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I'd see this more of a way to help your contain, pretty much like lurkers/scourge/overlord in TvZ. But even against a D+/C- player, once he notices what youre doing, he'll group his blind observers with let's say 1 new observer, and you'll never be able to figure out fast enough which one isnt blind.
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2 fact contain with turrets mines and blind!
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upmagic used this some time ago. I quess it could work pretty well
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this reminds me of the idea i had earlier, if you'd just randomly make the ghost addon in the science facility, land your barracks and start making like a handful of ghosts. Then maybe tech cloak and lockdown... Then you could either lock down the arbiters, or even lockdown some goons if you have enough ghosts and energy for them. The good stuff about this is that i think that lockdown has like 0 casting time, and the ghost can be cloaked, so there is a high chance that protoss won't even see it. you could go and clone lockdown like 8 dragoons and come pew pew them.
I also want to see protoss use feedback vs vessels and defilers, and maelstorm vs zerg =D
(1 good usage for maelstorm is to block a ramp of an expansion or something. Just maelstorm a couple of lings on the ramp, and then destroy the hatchery). And you could just maelstorm and storm too. It would be destructive
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On May 17 2009 03:43 MuR)Ernu wrote:
this reminds me of the idea i had earlier, if you'd just randomly make the ghost addon in the science facility, land your barracks and start making like a handful of ghosts. Then maybe tech cloak and lockdown... Then you could either lock down the arbiters, or even lockdown some goons if you have enough ghosts and energy for them. The good stuff about this is that i think that lockdown has like 0 casting time, and the ghost can be cloaked, so there is a high chance that protoss won't even see it. you could go and clone lockdown like 8 dragoons and come pew pew them.
I also want to see protoss use feedback vs vessels and defilers, and maelstorm vs zerg =D
(1 good usage for maelstorm is to block a ramp of an expansion or something. Just maelstorm a couple of lings on the ramp, and then destroy the hatchery). And you could just maelstorm and storm too. It would be destructive
I really like the idea of having ghosts lying in wait to lockdown arbiters that are about to recall you, you gotta be really quick spotting it on the minimap and getting the lockdown off though. And lockdowning a few goons in a battle is really nice because the other dragoons generally freak out around them a little bit when trying to move in on you or run away which means you can get some extra free shots off on them.
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It's not worth it, you can be pimp doing it but it won't work many times. You need to spend that time microing and macroing and stuff, not throwing optical flares.
The actual cost is not a problem (except in early midgame, where it actually could be a little useful)
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United States4126 Posts
On May 17 2009 02:35 AlwaysGG wrote:
i think pro protoss user does notice tho.
after a obs being blinded the vision become like 1 hex small and unable to detect invisable unit.
if protoss keep eye on obs most time it will be spotted
Many toss users group their obs with their main army, so they wouldn't notice any difference until the mines pop up out of nowhere.
I actually had this idea about integrating Medics into a TvP mech army but I never actually tried it. Medics are cheap and you usually don't use your rax after early-game unless you're using it for vision or to wall your nat, so it's not that much of a setback to try it.
Cons:
-Protoss starts grouping their obs into a separate hotkey (along with the blinded ones) which makes your job harder since you have to check to see which one isn't blinded.
-Protoss starts focus firing Medics, though that CAN be a plus since they tank some damage.
-You have to do it before your armies engage otherwise the Protoss will have already seen where the mines are, and you need to use your APM to micro your main army too.
Other uses:
-Blind a few DT's if your main army isn't around.
-Blind an incoming Shuttle drop/Recall so that they run into turrets or just as intimidation.
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On May 17 2009 04:21 Kinky wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2009 02:35 AlwaysGG wrote:
i think pro protoss user does notice tho.
after a obs being blinded the vision become like 1 hex small and unable to detect invisable unit.
if protoss keep eye on obs most time it will be spotted Many toss users group their obs with their main army, so they wouldn't notice any difference until the mines pop up out of nowhere. I actually had this idea about integrating Medics into a TvP mech army but I never actually tried it. Medics are cheap and you usually don't use your rax after early-game unless you're using it for vision or to wall your nat, so it's not that much of a setback to try it. Cons: -Protoss starts grouping their obs into a separate hotkey (along with the blinded ones) which makes your job harder since you have to check to see which one isn't blinded. -Protoss starts focus firing Medics, though that CAN be a plus since they tank some damage. -You have to do it before your armies engage otherwise the Protoss will have already seen where the mines are, and you need to use your APM to micro your main army too. Other uses: -Blind a few DT's if your main army isn't around. -Blind an incoming Shuttle drop/Recall so that they run into turrets or just as intimidation.
medics are small so they take 4 or 5 goon hits, i think medic has either 40hp or 50hp.
Also you only need one "success" with the blind, since even 1-2 mines can be absolutely disastrous =)
It takes quite a bit of additional micro from you, but ultimately, it could be worth it.
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EPT
