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konadora
Singapore66160 Posts
http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=12735
So I played this TvP quite some time ago. I went for a failed bionic rush, and then I just decided to go optical flare. And turns out it helped me a great much the entire game.
I didn't go a lot of goliaths, so I couldn't kill the observers. So I scanned and blinded all the observers. The enemy Protoss never saw that coming, and this was what happened early game (because of being unable to see spider mines).
Do you think this will be a viable strat? Using blind without the opponent knowing may lead to the Protoss just running into the mines (as per above) because they tend to group the observers and dragoons together, and will not know if the observers are blinded or not. Also, they'll have a 'dead unit' because blinded observer is almost useless but takes up supply. Medic + research cost isn't that expensive either.
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haha that's awesome
It could work out but I doubt you'd be able to pull it off on someone who's paying attention
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konadora
Singapore66160 Posts
Yeah but if someone does find out that his observers are blind, then you can force the dragoons to pull back by planting mines.
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51446 Posts
how do you kill that many goons yet be playing that for another 25 minutes or so.
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Does the observer icon turn green when it's blinded when you group it with something? If that's the case then yeah, probably won't work on the higher level people.
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I think the reason this isn't good is that the 250 minerals, 150 gas you would spend on, say, a few medics + the upgrade can almost be used for3 goliaths instead if you neglect the time used building in the factory. These goliaths can disable both observers and shuttles as well as attack ground.
Flaring observers and hoping the protoss doesn't notice probably isn't a reliable strategy. It might work once in awhile but I think having a few goliaths around is so much better. I could be wrong, though - it would be very interesting to see players incorporating this into tvp.
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On May 16 2009 16:54 GTR wrote:
how do you kill that many goons yet be playing that for another 25 minutes or so.
Failing a bionic rush puts you pretty damned behind...plus, from what I can tell, he had only what looked like that tank, and maybe a few more units with that (spider mines save the day!)
In response to OP - I suppose it could be pretty viable when you are behind enough, and you have to be very keen and aware of where the army is. If you can manage to not fuck up the blind and actually make the goons stumble into mines, it would be worth it. Unfortunately, it could also end up being a waste of gas invested into medic + flare...
Also, if the opponent is aware enough seeing his goons aren't shooting mines anymore, it could also backfire. I deem this as being a "cute trick" that has an okay percent of chance of working.
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konadora
Singapore66160 Posts
On May 16 2009 16:54 GTR wrote:
how do you kill that many goons yet be playing that for another 25 minutes or so.
I was turtling
On May 16 2009 16:55 Rhaegar99 wrote:
Does the observer icon turn green when it's blinded when you group it with something? If that's the case then yeah, probably won't work on the higher level people.
Nope it doesn't, that's why I considered this (because unlike Blind, Parasite shows)
On May 16 2009 16:56 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
I think the reason this isn't good is that the 250 minerals, 150 gas you would spend on, say, a few medics + the upgrade can almost be used for3 goliaths instead if you neglect the time used building in the factory. These goliaths can disable both observers and shuttles as well as attack ground.
Flaring observers and hoping the protoss doesn't notice probably isn't a reliable strategy. It might work once in awhile but I think having a few goliaths around is so much better. I could be wrong, though - it would be very interesting to see players incorporating this into tvp.
Yeah, except goliaths require armory as well, and the build time too. Also, goliaths -> less vultures.
On May 16 2009 16:59 Comeh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2009 16:54 GTR wrote:
how do you kill that many goons yet be playing that for another 25 minutes or so. Failing a bionic rush puts you pretty damned behind...plus, from what I can tell, he had only what looked like that tank, and maybe a few more units with that (spider mines save the day!) In response to OP - I suppose it could be pretty viable when you are behind enough, and you have to be very keen and aware of where the army is. If you can manage to not fuck up the blind and actually make the goons stumble into mines, it would be worth it. Unfortunately, it could also end up being a waste of gas invested into medic + flare... Also, if the opponent is aware enough seeing his goons aren't shooting mines anymore, it could also backfire. I deem this as being a "cute trick" that has an okay percent of chance of working.
He might think that the mines have all been cleared. That's what happened to my opponent.
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Imo, this is a good side extra against Protoss. However, I suspect it's more likely to be used like the OP said, a bionic attack. Otherwise, the alterations for a fast academy might damage the other needed tech or units.
However, it might be very good against carriers (Refer to Boxer's medic flare pimpest plays, unknown year) but that's already the gosu level 
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I love cute stuff like that! :D Although, I guess good players will not be affected too badly by it (like suiciding goons into minefields), but it must be really annoying. If you've done a MnM strat you might as well go for it.
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konadora
Singapore66160 Posts
Yeah but the thing is, the medics helped me all the way until late game (vessels helped me save scan, then I just blinded all the observers)
JESUS A BIRD JUST SLAMMED INTO MY WINDOW
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I never hotkey obs or group them with other units when I'm toss.
Ps- Doesn't it say youre under attack when you get flared?
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konadora
Singapore66160 Posts
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it only turns green when parasited.
hmm... this might work, but if you commit to bionic, then there's a lot fewer resources for mech units, which are more effective vs toss.
i think that it's not really that viable, although...... if you just get the medics and research the ability after you get comsat (since you'll need it anyways), then the opponent might be in for a surprise. it basically means 75 medic energy to make them waste 25/75. oh... but you waste a scan, too.
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konadora
Singapore66160 Posts
On May 16 2009 17:25 29 fps wrote:
it only turns green when parasited.
hmm... this might work, but if you commit to bionic, then there's a lot fewer resources for mech units, which are more effective vs toss.
i think that it's not really that viable, although...... if you just get the medics and research the ability after you get comsat (since you'll need it anyways), then the opponent might be in for a surprise. it basically means 75 medic energy to make them waste 25/75. oh... but you waste a scan, too.
Yeah but instead of getting goliaths to pick off the observers after you scan, you can use the factories to build more vultures/tanks. Not killing observers also gives them 'dead units', as well as create confusion for the Toss player.
If you have 2~3 bases running, I don't see how getting a few medics and blinding all the observers (either with scan or after vessels are out) will hurt.
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On May 16 2009 17:05 konadora wrote:
Yeah but the thing is, the medics helped me all the way until late game (vessels helped me save scan, then I just blinded all the observers)
JESUS A BIRD JUST SLAMMED INTO MY WINDOW
Heehee so raandom
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Goliaths can take out the obesrvers and help vs arbs or carriers.
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konadora
Singapore66160 Posts
On May 16 2009 17:51 deathgod6 wrote:
Goliaths can take out the obesrvers and help vs arbs or carriers.
Aaand?
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On May 16 2009 17:05 konadora wrote:
JESUS A BIRD JUST SLAMMED INTO MY WINDOW
It may have been blinded by an Medical Flare
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On May 16 2009 17:59 flothefreak wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2009 17:05 konadora wrote:
JESUS A BIRD JUST SLAMMED INTO MY WINDOW It may have been blinded by an Medical Flare
the irony!
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It'd be cool if this could be pulled off, really nice idea. Gonna check out the rep in a bit. :D
Didn't Upmagic try this pretty recently on Medusa? Except he crushed his opponent before he had even researched optical flare and got a chance to use it, I think. He mentioned it in an interview, I'm gonna go see if I can dig it up.
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I thought blinded units had a red box around them?
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LOL @ Picture
ROFL @ bird vs window
and... Blinding a shuttle and possibly the reaver is quite possibly as high up as a fast-wraith on the annoying as fuck list.
EDIT: forgot to actually bring up what your OP was about >_>
I think it could be a good delaying technique if you did a failed bio opening, for sure. But if you miss just one observer and if Protoss learns at a decent pace things could get sketchy ^^
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On May 16 2009 17:59 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2009 17:51 deathgod6 wrote:
Goliaths can take out the obesrvers and help vs arbs or carriers. Aaand?
So it makes medics obsolete.  unless you want to heal scvs.
You need anti-air anyways. Medics for the sole purpose of blinding obs is not worth it. It may seem cheap, but the optical flare upgrade and gas spent on medics adds up. It would possibly work on lower level players because they will be taken aback and surprised.
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On May 16 2009 18:37 deathgod6 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2009 17:59 konadora wrote:On May 16 2009 17:51 deathgod6 wrote:
Goliaths can take out the obesrvers and help vs arbs or carriers. Aaand? So it makes medics obsolete. unless you want to heal scvs. You need anti-air anyways. Medics for the sole purpose of blinding obs is not worth it. It may seem cheap, but the optical flare upgrade and gas spent on medics adds up. It would possibly work on lower level players because they will be taken aback and surprised.
It depends on how much damage you do by tricking the opponent into walking into your mine fields even when they have an observer.
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On May 16 2009 18:13 Wohmfg wrote:
It'd be cool if this could be pulled off, really nice idea. Gonna check out the rep in a bit. :D
Didn't Upmagic try this pretty recently on Medusa? Except he crushed his opponent before he had even researched optical flare and got a chance to use it, I think. He mentioned it in an interview, I'm gonna go see if I can dig it up.
IIRC something happened in the early game that put the toss behind, Upmagic denied scouting and was preparing an 8 fact timing on the toss's 3 base arbiter tech. He got acad+scans fast and made one medic to fake a Mnm+tank switch and purposely revealed it to the obs at his natural choke. It fucked up the toss's army composition and he rolled him over. The medic ended up doing a good job healing the scvs he brought along with the push but the post-game interview didn't say anything about blinding. It would've been very stylish though lol.
As for the op, it's a nice last ditch tactic to use when you're behind but usually I think if you're close enough to blind an obs, you're also close enough to either have your medic killed by goon shots or just kill it with marines/gols. Still cool though, I'll have to do it sometime ^^
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A Medic's optical flare range is quite far to say the least. So, if he's fast and probably the observer would be slightly ahead of the dragoons (For mine checking purposes), the medic can flare the observer without getting shot.
Yes, Goliaths seem to be a better investment due to wanted tech (Armory for upgrades) and anti air capabilities. However, this might be a very good trick against reaver harass. Flare the shuttle, its pretty much blind and it'll have to go back or risk getting shot. If P loses the reaver, the cost is returned and u can continue to flare obs which will help.
By the way about the dead unit thing, the observer is 1 supply no? So, it wouldn't hurt that much in terms of supply and Protoss loses units fast against the mech ball lol.
Don't forget the Boxer Flare obs Ghost nuke trick ;p.
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A good toss will realize that the obs must be blind when its sight range is only about 1 (is it 2?).
I think that early in the game the gas could be better spent; rarely will you have situations where you have a medic, sieged tanks, mines in place, and a chance to see the obs. Perhaps after a failed bio rush, to prevent the toss from attacking until you have enough tanks you could get 1-2 meds and use flare+scans to delay his attack.
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On May 16 2009 17:03 Marksman wrote:Imo, this is a good side extra against Protoss. However, I suspect it's more likely to be used like the OP said, a bionic attack. Otherwise, the alterations for a fast academy might damage the other needed tech or units. However, it might be very good against carriers (Refer to Boxer's medic flare pimpest plays, unknown year) but that's already the gosu level
It's a bit less gosu if conditions aren't as tight as in a pro game. If you have four extra medics and you blind the carriers themselves as well you'll have a bit more space to blind or snipe the observer and then a completely blind ball or carriers/observers is not gonna cause much havoc.
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Upmagic tried to do that recently, but there was nothing to blind when he attacked. He attacked with just a normal tank&vulture army and one medic.
I read in the comments he did it before. And he may have done it afterward. It was on Neo Medusa vs Backho I think. But that game he was well ahead. So maybe that's why he did it.
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konadora
Singapore66160 Posts
On May 16 2009 20:46 Wala.Revolution wrote:
A good toss will realize that the obs must be blind when its sight range is only about 1 (is it 2?).
But the thing is, the dragoons (if dragoons and observers are close to each other) give vision, which makes the player think that it's the observer giving vision and there isn't any spider mine.
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
so ur blinding them as the goons and obs are moving along towards you? wouldn't they just be able to see the medic shoot something at their ob then :\
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i thought about this, it's not really viable they can just suicide the observer and get new ones, plus it takes too much apm to blind with medics as well as everything else you already have to do as terran, scan + gollies is just better and easier
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On May 16 2009 22:02 alffla wrote:
so ur blinding them as the goons and obs are moving along towards you? wouldn't they just be able to see the medic shoot something at their ob then :\
If they're watching, and if you watch your units move, then you should learn to multitask better because that's a point where you could've macroed.
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On May 16 2009 17:05 konadora wrote:
Yeah but the thing is, the medics helped me all the way until late game (vessels helped me save scan, then I just blinded all the observers)
JESUS A BIRD JUST SLAMMED INTO MY WINDOW
Post of the week, imo.
I think this could be very viable. Even if you won't get such great results as the OP, you could at least stop a push, and wait for a few more reinforcements. Protoss doesn't have anything like "Restore" so they will have to find another observer, or wait for another one to build.
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
On May 16 2009 22:29 dhe95 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2009 22:02 alffla wrote:
so ur blinding them as the goons and obs are moving along towards you? wouldn't they just be able to see the medic shoot something at their ob then :\ If they're watching, and if you watch your units move, then you should learn to multitask better because that's a point where you could've macroed.
wat?
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i think without a doubt it will work early game might be a great little perk to have up your sleeve since most toss, without a doubt - get obs as soon as they start realizing they cant leave their base haha. but - i dont know about late game when your 180/200 and hes coming with about 5-6 observers and your turtling i dont see how youll always get them. also they can always just MC and restore ^_^
EDITT
When im toss i go 2 gate to fast temp archive and MC all Kakaru on andromeda, it also works great for scouting.
(ROFL)
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konadora
Singapore66160 Posts
On May 16 2009 23:37 MicroInfest wrote:
i think without a doubt it will work early game might be a great little perk to have up your sleeve since most toss, without a doubt - get obs as soon as they start realizing they cant leave their base haha. but - i dont know about late game when your 180/200 and hes coming with about 5-6 observers and your turtling i dont see how youll always get them. also they can always just MC and restore ^_^
If you see late game, I optic flared every single observers I saw with my science vessels. That toss just ran into my mines rofl
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i tried the same thing a while ago. the idea was to accompany an early push with flare to setup a contain and use that to take the map and overrun my opponent with a better economy. this is the best/most entertaining game that i played using medics
http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=7185
the reasoning behind medics over goliaths is:
- frees up factory time and minerals for more vultures.
- optic flare has better range than goliaths do unupgraded
- optic flare is instant, goliaths take a number of volleys to kill an obs
- medics are not a good target to shoot at from a protoss' perspective. they heal each other, have decent health vs goons because theyre small units and have natural armor, they dont shoot back and are low on the a-move priority list
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i guess this would work pretty well but the problem is you have to go bionic vs. toss which is never really a good idea. But if you have the apm/feel like cheesing then go ahead.
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konadora
Singapore66160 Posts
On May 17 2009 00:07 ghermination wrote:
i guess this would work pretty well but the problem is you have to go bionic vs. toss which is never really a good idea. But if you have the apm/feel like cheesing then go ahead.
No no, why does everyone think you have to go bionic? You can basically go 1 fact double, then get academy -> get scan + research flare + get medics and push with tank/vulture/medics/scvs (turrets or bunkers if needed) instead of tank/vulture/goliath with lower vulture/tank count.
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You could just play standard getting academy at normal time then make a few medics and research optical flare. Not that expensive.
Also could you also keep a medic in the main and blind the shuttle? That's expensive and would make it really vulnerable to turrets. Later game you could be blinding + emping arbs :D recall = no.
If you knew he was reaver/dt dropping maybe you could rush optical flare in time for that shuttle coming in.. blind the reaver too !?
Hmm... just got reavered to death before I even started teching it. You'd have to go acad before cc to even have a chance... gonna try some more
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konadora
Singapore66160 Posts
Yeah exactly, that's why I'm thinking why isn't optic flare used so much early game. It sure doesn't cost that much, and isn't as hard to use (cast range, casting time, gas intensive) as Queen's ensnare.
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On May 16 2009 17:01 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2009 16:56 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
I think the reason this isn't good is that the 250 minerals, 150 gas you would spend on, say, a few medics + the upgrade can almost be used for3 goliaths instead if you neglect the time used building in the factory. These goliaths can disable both observers and shuttles as well as attack ground.
Flaring observers and hoping the protoss doesn't notice probably isn't a reliable strategy. It might work once in awhile but I think having a few goliaths around is so much better. I could be wrong, though - it would be very interesting to see players incorporating this into tvp. Yeah, except goliaths require armory as well, and the build time too. Also, goliaths -> less vultures.
You should be getting an armory anyway for upgrades. Medics also have research and build time.
Goliaths means fewer tanks, not vults - gollies are very gas intensive.
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konadora
Singapore66160 Posts
On May 17 2009 01:11 The Raurosaur wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2009 17:01 konadora wrote:On May 16 2009 16:56 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
I think the reason this isn't good is that the 250 minerals, 150 gas you would spend on, say, a few medics + the upgrade can almost be used for3 goliaths instead if you neglect the time used building in the factory. These goliaths can disable both observers and shuttles as well as attack ground.
Flaring observers and hoping the protoss doesn't notice probably isn't a reliable strategy. It might work once in awhile but I think having a few goliaths around is so much better. I could be wrong, though - it would be very interesting to see players incorporating this into tvp. Yeah, except goliaths require armory as well, and the build time too. Also, goliaths -> less vultures. You should be getting an armory anyway for upgrades. Medics also have research and build time. Goliaths means fewer tanks, not vults - gollies are very gas intensive.
Either way, since making goliaths still taking up queue in factory production.
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Game 1: Python: Me 12 him 9.
He made a zeal and forced me to pull some scvs because I didn't block. I made 4-5 marines and a tank, teched seige and made my 2nd cc on the spot. I starting making the academy shortly afterward. He proxied a robo and bay at 3 main and with 2 zeals he dropped me at around 6:00. I was completely unprepared and was destroyed with the followup 2 reaver drop.
My build was not very good... after making the cc I cut units + depots to try and fit acad in faster. It was still too late anyway for drop so I only succeeded in making myself powerless to defend against it. Never even teched optical flare or made a medic
Game 2: Python: Me 3 Him 9.
Did fact then acad build with block, 2 tanks, 0 marines then cc while he 1 gate expod. Had 2 medics and optical flare complete at 5:15, cc that I made safely behind block just about ready to float, maybe a full minute or so later than his expansion. He then took a quick third.
I was already pretty behind since he got his natural a lot faster than me then he went on to take top left corner. The two medics I made survived all game and blinded 4-5 obs and 3 arbiters. Pretty much everything he made that I could spot.. at one point he managed to get a non-blinded observer following my army but that didn't last for long. Although I was pretty far behind his macro was not that good and I made 7 factories 2 armories and managed to beat him, even though he was on 4-5 bases at one point vs my 2.
It seems too risky to do fact acad before cc for the 5:15 medics + blind because you are hoping he is dropping you with shuttle and if he doesn't, like what happened when I tried it out, you are way behind. Even if he did not sure it would actually do much anyway... you'd have to ebay and stuff as well really quick..
So nono for early game... but later?
Since you get gols + ups reasonably quickly or at least I try to and I usually vessel EMP anyway I really don't see how this medic + blind will be that useful.
Hope you find a way to make it work but... I don't see how 
edit: Actually it might work if you just research and make the 2 medics once you have your natural and keep 1 at each base and blind anything that comes near that you can see.
Use them defensively... they can also heal scvs damaged by the drop.. blind a reaver / dt / shuttle / arbiter... I reckon this would be the best way of using them as opposed to getting them early or attempting to use them offensively.
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Nada pulled a similar strategy to this back in 2004 or so. Medics w/ flare + cloaked wraiths vs. Carriers + obs. He ended up losing after like 40 minutes, though. :<
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konadora
Singapore66160 Posts
@Reason:
Yeah I'm suggesting using the flare ability once you are pretty okay on income, not squeezing out more resources for medics when you need tanks/vultures much much more.
@Lucktar:
I'm suggesting more for optic flare with mech army use against Protoss army haha
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thats great
he probably didn't even notice his observers were blinded...
and was like WTF when mines popped
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i think pro protoss user does notice tho.
after a obs being blinded the vision become like 1 hex small and unable to detect invisable unit.
if protoss keep eye on obs most time it will be spotted
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On May 16 2009 17:05 konadora wrote:
Yeah but the thing is, the medics helped me all the way until late game (vessels helped me save scan, then I just blinded all the observers)
JESUS A BIRD JUST SLAMMED INTO MY WINDOW
Was it okay? This happens to us all the time... Usually they're okay after a few minutes, but sometimes the neighbor's cat gets them so I usually go outside to make sure it survives.
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I'd see this more of a way to help your contain, pretty much like lurkers/scourge/overlord in TvZ. But even against a D+/C- player, once he notices what youre doing, he'll group his blind observers with let's say 1 new observer, and you'll never be able to figure out fast enough which one isnt blind.
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2 fact contain with turrets mines and blind!
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upmagic used this some time ago. I quess it could work pretty well
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this reminds me of the idea i had earlier, if you'd just randomly make the ghost addon in the science facility, land your barracks and start making like a handful of ghosts. Then maybe tech cloak and lockdown... Then you could either lock down the arbiters, or even lockdown some goons if you have enough ghosts and energy for them. The good stuff about this is that i think that lockdown has like 0 casting time, and the ghost can be cloaked, so there is a high chance that protoss won't even see it. you could go and clone lockdown like 8 dragoons and come pew pew them.
I also want to see protoss use feedback vs vessels and defilers, and maelstorm vs zerg =D
(1 good usage for maelstorm is to block a ramp of an expansion or something. Just maelstorm a couple of lings on the ramp, and then destroy the hatchery). And you could just maelstorm and storm too. It would be destructive
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On May 17 2009 03:43 MuR)Ernu wrote:
this reminds me of the idea i had earlier, if you'd just randomly make the ghost addon in the science facility, land your barracks and start making like a handful of ghosts. Then maybe tech cloak and lockdown... Then you could either lock down the arbiters, or even lockdown some goons if you have enough ghosts and energy for them. The good stuff about this is that i think that lockdown has like 0 casting time, and the ghost can be cloaked, so there is a high chance that protoss won't even see it. you could go and clone lockdown like 8 dragoons and come pew pew them.
I also want to see protoss use feedback vs vessels and defilers, and maelstorm vs zerg =D
(1 good usage for maelstorm is to block a ramp of an expansion or something. Just maelstorm a couple of lings on the ramp, and then destroy the hatchery). And you could just maelstorm and storm too. It would be destructive
I really like the idea of having ghosts lying in wait to lockdown arbiters that are about to recall you, you gotta be really quick spotting it on the minimap and getting the lockdown off though. And lockdowning a few goons in a battle is really nice because the other dragoons generally freak out around them a little bit when trying to move in on you or run away which means you can get some extra free shots off on them.
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It's not worth it, you can be pimp doing it but it won't work many times. You need to spend that time microing and macroing and stuff, not throwing optical flares.
The actual cost is not a problem (except in early midgame, where it actually could be a little useful)
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United States4126 Posts
On May 17 2009 02:35 AlwaysGG wrote:
i think pro protoss user does notice tho.
after a obs being blinded the vision become like 1 hex small and unable to detect invisable unit.
if protoss keep eye on obs most time it will be spotted
Many toss users group their obs with their main army, so they wouldn't notice any difference until the mines pop up out of nowhere.
I actually had this idea about integrating Medics into a TvP mech army but I never actually tried it. Medics are cheap and you usually don't use your rax after early-game unless you're using it for vision or to wall your nat, so it's not that much of a setback to try it.
Cons:
-Protoss starts grouping their obs into a separate hotkey (along with the blinded ones) which makes your job harder since you have to check to see which one isn't blinded.
-Protoss starts focus firing Medics, though that CAN be a plus since they tank some damage.
-You have to do it before your armies engage otherwise the Protoss will have already seen where the mines are, and you need to use your APM to micro your main army too.
Other uses:
-Blind a few DT's if your main army isn't around.
-Blind an incoming Shuttle drop/Recall so that they run into turrets or just as intimidation.
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On May 17 2009 04:21 Kinky wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2009 02:35 AlwaysGG wrote:
i think pro protoss user does notice tho.
after a obs being blinded the vision become like 1 hex small and unable to detect invisable unit.
if protoss keep eye on obs most time it will be spotted Many toss users group their obs with their main army, so they wouldn't notice any difference until the mines pop up out of nowhere. I actually had this idea about integrating Medics into a TvP mech army but I never actually tried it. Medics are cheap and you usually don't use your rax after early-game unless you're using it for vision or to wall your nat, so it's not that much of a setback to try it. Cons: -Protoss starts grouping their obs into a separate hotkey (along with the blinded ones) which makes your job harder since you have to check to see which one isn't blinded. -Protoss starts focus firing Medics, though that CAN be a plus since they tank some damage. -You have to do it before your armies engage otherwise the Protoss will have already seen where the mines are, and you need to use your APM to micro your main army too. Other uses: -Blind a few DT's if your main army isn't around. -Blind an incoming Shuttle drop/Recall so that they run into turrets or just as intimidation.
medics are small so they take 4 or 5 goon hits, i think medic has either 40hp or 50hp.
Also you only need one "success" with the blind, since even 1-2 mines can be absolutely disastrous =)
It takes quite a bit of additional micro from you, but ultimately, it could be worth it.
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When I mess around vs. a Terran computer they always use this on my shuttle and the sight range is reduced to nothing. Makes it incredibly difficult to reaver harass.
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Also remember that goliaths aren't the only way to deter observers. You can build missile turrets, which can easily kill the obs if they group the ob with their goons and just attack into your siege line + mines + turrets.
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offtopic: does Konadora have the record for fastest growing post count? Lol.
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United States4126 Posts
On May 17 2009 05:16 MuR)Ernu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2009 04:21 Kinky wrote:On May 17 2009 02:35 AlwaysGG wrote:
i think pro protoss user does notice tho.
after a obs being blinded the vision become like 1 hex small and unable to detect invisable unit.
if protoss keep eye on obs most time it will be spotted Many toss users group their obs with their main army, so they wouldn't notice any difference until the mines pop up out of nowhere. I actually had this idea about integrating Medics into a TvP mech army but I never actually tried it. Medics are cheap and you usually don't use your rax after early-game unless you're using it for vision or to wall your nat, so it's not that much of a setback to try it. Cons: -Protoss starts grouping their obs into a separate hotkey (along with the blinded ones) which makes your job harder since you have to check to see which one isn't blinded. -Protoss starts focus firing Medics, though that CAN be a plus since they tank some damage. -You have to do it before your armies engage otherwise the Protoss will have already seen where the mines are, and you need to use your APM to micro your main army too. Other uses: -Blind a few DT's if your main army isn't around. -Blind an incoming Shuttle drop/Recall so that they run into turrets or just as intimidation. medics are small so they take 4 or 5 goon hits, i think medic has either 40hp or 50hp. Also you only need one "success" with the blind, since even 1-2 mines can be absolutely disastrous =) It takes quite a bit of additional micro from you, but ultimately, it could be worth it.
It's 60 so 6 goon hits or 7 if you decide to upgrade +1 armor (or even more since they're constantly healing eachother).
There's still the problems with the Protoss' Zealots running amok and killing your medics though.
And if the Protoss somehow gets lucky with mine drags, it'll hurt a lot.
On May 17 2009 07:35 iCCup.d(O.o)a wrote:
offtopic: does Konadora have the record for fastest growing post count? Lol.
Yea, I was wondering that too haha. It looks like it.
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konadora
Singapore66160 Posts
On May 17 2009 03:43 MuR)Ernu wrote:
this reminds me of the idea i had earlier, if you'd just randomly make the ghost addon in the science facility, land your barracks and start making like a handful of ghosts. Then maybe tech cloak and lockdown... Then you could either lock down the arbiters, or even lockdown some goons if you have enough ghosts and energy for them. The good stuff about this is that i think that lockdown has like 0 casting time, and the ghost can be cloaked, so there is a high chance that protoss won't even see it. you could go and clone lockdown like 8 dragoons and come pew pew them.
I also want to see protoss use feedback vs vessels and defilers, and maelstorm vs zerg =D
(1 good usage for maelstorm is to block a ramp of an expansion or something. Just maelstorm a couple of lings on the ramp, and then destroy the hatchery). And you could just maelstorm and storm too. It would be destructive
Didn't boxer use this before? And Maelstrom was used pretty often (although the last time I remember was this epic PvZ on Shin CPR)
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On May 17 2009 08:13 konadora wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2009 03:43 MuR)Ernu wrote:
this reminds me of the idea i had earlier, if you'd just randomly make the ghost addon in the science facility, land your barracks and start making like a handful of ghosts. Then maybe tech cloak and lockdown... Then you could either lock down the arbiters, or even lockdown some goons if you have enough ghosts and energy for them. The good stuff about this is that i think that lockdown has like 0 casting time, and the ghost can be cloaked, so there is a high chance that protoss won't even see it. you could go and clone lockdown like 8 dragoons and come pew pew them.
I also want to see protoss use feedback vs vessels and defilers, and maelstorm vs zerg =D
(1 good usage for maelstorm is to block a ramp of an expansion or something. Just maelstorm a couple of lings on the ramp, and then destroy the hatchery). And you could just maelstorm and storm too. It would be destructive Didn't boxer use this before? And Maelstrom was used pretty often (although the last time I remember was this epic PvZ on Shin CPR)
Boxer vs free on Othello and Chrh vs Bisu on Monty Hall both feature lockdown on Arbiters during lategame TvP.
The latter also features Chrh's EPIC smile
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konadora
Singapore66160 Posts
On May 17 2009 08:18 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2009 08:13 konadora wrote:On May 17 2009 03:43 MuR)Ernu wrote:
this reminds me of the idea i had earlier, if you'd just randomly make the ghost addon in the science facility, land your barracks and start making like a handful of ghosts. Then maybe tech cloak and lockdown... Then you could either lock down the arbiters, or even lockdown some goons if you have enough ghosts and energy for them. The good stuff about this is that i think that lockdown has like 0 casting time, and the ghost can be cloaked, so there is a high chance that protoss won't even see it. you could go and clone lockdown like 8 dragoons and come pew pew them.
I also want to see protoss use feedback vs vessels and defilers, and maelstorm vs zerg =D
(1 good usage for maelstorm is to block a ramp of an expansion or something. Just maelstorm a couple of lings on the ramp, and then destroy the hatchery). And you could just maelstorm and storm too. It would be destructive Didn't boxer use this before? And Maelstrom was used pretty often (although the last time I remember was this epic PvZ on Shin CPR) Boxer vs free on Othello and Chrh vs Bisu on Monty Hall both feature lockdown on Arbiters during lategame TvP. The latter also features Chrh's EPIC smile
Haha I'll never forget those two games, I still have the first VOD in my comp, second VOD I just ripped it off youtube (bad quality )
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I don't think it's a bad idea. The only costs are optical flare and a single medic. If you decide to do a turret push then the medic can heal an injured scv, or save up for its next blind. it's not a useless unit since its energy is always low. Medics don't have to be just for healing.
But imagine if you were the toss. After your obs started getting blinded I think you'd be more careful and would move your observers behind the goons. I doubt it would work late game.
I'm not very good so take my comments with salt.
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I like the idea and if well microed it could get really annoying. Also it lets you risk taking a hidden expansion.. no obs to scout it. Lay some mines on the way to the expansion to kill any potential zealot/dt scouters.
Another great advantage is that by spending gas on medic/research you have more min-only vultures. Toss in the mean time has less gas for arbiters/goons and in turn has more zealots because toss needs to constantly be remaking obs. The high vulture count will help vs zealots and work well in delaying toss from attacking.
As for when to do it? How about doing it while taking a really quick third. At that time toss doesn't have the gas econ to pump non-stop obs without sacrificing goon production or templar/arbiter tech.
I guess the best counter is to go obs range so you can keep your obs farther back, but toss usually doesn't do that and will only do that once his observers are blind, buying you enough time to take a third and mine/turret/tank it.
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konadora
Singapore66160 Posts
I just used this against GTR, blinded all the observers and arbiters. I think they kinda helped
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If you can blind the shuttle and reaver during reaver harrass it would pretty much nullify it
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as a protoss I usually send my observer first, and even tho if I missed the "blind"-text, I'd notice it when the vision range is so small.
Ofcourse there might be few lucky situations this wont happen, or then it can delay the attack untill protoss get's a new observer to the place.
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Honestly I think if you have the control to pull this off, it can be pretty legit. You'll definitely catch many opponents off guard since this is simply not done, and even after they begin noticing, it will buy you more time as they have to send more obs and carefully monitor them.
Of course if you blind them out in the field before engagements, they'll notice, but it's still strictly gas efficient for you after the first 2 obs.
In late-game engagements when they bring several obs, though, even if your push is already set up, I think it'd be pretty risky to try to blind them all unless you can simultaneously control your mech units. If your push crumbles since you're late on the templar snipe, then it's simply not worth it.
You'll have to test yourself to confirm peoples' comments that blind would own reaver play. Investing in blind that early might not be too healthy for your build.
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Where are the meat shield (zealots) for the toss?
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konadora
Singapore66160 Posts
On May 17 2009 17:32 MuffinDude wrote:
Where are the meat shield (zealots) for the toss?
You mean the pic in the OP?
They all died.
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that picture does look very convincing...
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I used to try this some years ago and had big troubles to place the academy at the appropriate moment so it wouldnt interfere with my tech. However, once you have medics with flare they can be pretty useful. Since Protoss almost always has one or two observers near your army anyway, you can scan and blind one to two observers immediately. It can be very annoying for the Protoss to check if his observers have been blinded and to constantly suicide them (since they take supply unnecessarily). That of course creates a little timewindow where there are no observers watching your army until they are re-inforced with new ones (which can be blinded too with some luck when seeing their shape move), what makes a push a lot harder to hold off. Also, it takes the P a bit off his game when he doesnt have his usual vision range, constantly waiting for a push instead off concentrating on different things.
Using them in an offensive way too difficult for me (lack of APM), although I can imagine that in a big battle one or two blinded observers very well could make a difference.
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konadora
Singapore66160 Posts
I mixed them a lot with vessels so that I don't have to scan every time I pushed out lol
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strange how skeptical people are about these new ideas..
I remember how agressive people would get about how precious gas was in zvt and how you absolutely could not afford to get ensare. What ever happened to that aggression once ensare was in fact used in the pro-scene?
anyways, I think flare is a great idea and I commend you for sharing it. In terms of viability, I don't see why not. Crazier things have been viable, like mnm vs carriers. Did you mean more that a medic on your 2nd expo should be a staple to standard tvp?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/7905/medicblindtvp.jpg)
