EPTVideo conversation of artosis and I
ask me about Terran - Page 5
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
Video conversation of artosis and I | ||
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SkepTicAL
Canada872 Posts
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On March 08 2009 15:17 Ver wrote: For TvT, what is the best opening to use assuming one doesn't understand early game RPS and is much stronger in midgame play? Right now all I do is 14cc but I would think this is kind of a crutch. How do you feel about the old 2 rax acad FE versus 2 hatch muta? It would logically make sense because the 2 hatch build has a very weak economy and forcing them to put down 4 sunkens or make an absurd amount of lings + sunks against the early aggression would mess up everything. Is it not being used in pro matches just because everyone's so interested in mech right now? Or is there a problem of defending the mutas themselves with a later expansion even if the Zergs econ gets rocked? Also, if one were to do this, which is the more efficient method? Cutting scvs to get refinery at 16, acad 17, and depot 18, and then a cc at around 27 or so (Nada did this a bunch)? Or a build without cutting scvs, thus a later acad and cc (I would think mid-30's)? Consider this scenario in TvP on a map with a hard to take 4th...say Colosseum. Terran does normal Flash style fact cc armory fact cc, Protoss 3rd is delayed and is finished after Terran's 3rd is mining by about 15-30s, and once it's done they immediately take a 4th. Is there a timing window here for the Terran to exploit before a +1/2 push based upon the early 4th? Or should Terran just turtle up and get vessels? Another TvP timing question. In the Bisu vs Flash game on Medusa (proleague), Bisu did a 12 nexus -> attempted goon break/zeal drop (failed miserably), then took his 3rd/4th at the same time while getting arbiters. While Flash was playing somewhat sloppily after his initial defense (the mine bomb, lack of emps early, 4th expo delayed), it felt like Bisu's build just had a nice advantage even after the disaster of his bulldog. I was just so shocked seeing him break that defense the first time. Would there have been a timing window for Flash to exploit? What did he do wrong aside from getting a late 4th? Besides playing on Medusa obviously. Lastly, how strong is the build Flash showed against Bisu on Destination (fact cc armory cc/port wall off the ramped 3rd). I thought it seemed great even though Bisu played so well against it but pros don't really seem to use it much there (I haven't seen the latest matches there might be wrong)? That map just feels absurdly hard to move on because of a contain at the nat bridges (among other things) and honestly I don't know how the pro record evened out to like 55-60 P favored on it. If Terran does do that build, can they feasibly push up the side near their 3rd to take the high ground expansion before getting close to max? Thanks a bunch! i wrote about 1fact 1star tvt in a previous post. learn about that and vulture expansion builds. opening up 2rax acad then expand is not so good against 2hatchery muta. yes it forces them to sunken up a bit which hurts, but you then get stuck in your base because its so hard to afford turrets with your later expansion. if you were to cut scvs in a 2rax acad before expansion build TvZ, it would become all-in vs muta openings. already you will have a hard time affording muta defense. it will become too poor with a lack of scvs. the flash build is teh best build overall for colosseum 2. the 2-1 timing is your best bet. as for turtling up to get vessels, if you are getting +2 attack it means you already have everything you need to get a vessel. i suggest getting one right away so you have energy for when the arbs come out (he will probably get one just about same time you get your first vessel.) be really careful with the push. make sure you have plenty of factories before you go (right at the 2-1 finishing.) rally tons of vultures. your upgrades should carry you, but if you lose your tanks you are screwed. to be honest, i don't feel comfortable answering the question about bisu and flash's game. the map medusa is insanely hard TvP, and is like 80% wins for P > T if you take out flash's stats. flash clearly knows how to play this map better than any terran on the planet. bisu's build was hugely abusive and thus gave flash a super hard time. sorry i cant help more on this one. its basically the highest level terran understanding ever vs the highest level protoss understanding ever. not too too much i can add to it without rewatching the game (which i dont want to do atm sry) the build flash did there is really hard to execute. the problem comes when terran is getting ready to move out. bisu really abused flash's greediness and slowness in that game. i think vs any other protoss (aside from perhaps jangbi) flash would have pulled that game off. | ||
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NeVeR
1352 Posts
On March 08 2009 15:31 Artosis wrote: on most maps you don't move out on the 3-2 timing. that takes decades. they will have so many arbs by then. originally the flash build moved out on the 2-1 timing. by the time you are hitting 3-2 you really need that 4th base. you will be going dry in your main and natural and the additional base will allow you to keep up production. if you are really gonna sit there playing by yourself till 200 supply and 3-2 then protoss will have the whole map. move out on 2-1 and take your 4th behind it. Sometimes if you're behind, it's not smart to move out at 2-1. Well if you watched really vs yoon on Tau Cross the other night (it was a rematch, since really's computer crashed in the first game or something; I don't think the VOD has been uploaded to youtube yet), Really takes a fourth base before he makes a move (note that really was not behind prior to taking a fourth base). I've seen other progamers do this before as well. If I find a youtube vid I'll post it. | ||
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On March 08 2009 15:26 fusionsdf wrote: ok I'm 6 vs him at 3. I scout it coming when I 11 scout. Block the ramp with 6 scvs, build a bunker asap in my minline. Lose 4 scvs at my ramp and retreat the other 2 + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i41.tinypic.com/2qtfh3c.png) ![[image loading]](http://i44.tinypic.com/10xg9s3.png) ![[image loading]](http://i40.tinypic.com/656a69.png) ![[image loading]](http://i41.tinypic.com/140cv7.png) ![[image loading]](http://i43.tinypic.com/28ldlip.png) ![[image loading]](http://i44.tinypic.com/33xauzm.png) ![[image loading]](http://i43.tinypic.com/33w16za.png) ![[image loading]](http://i43.tinypic.com/aak4r7.png) I follow up with 2rax acad off one base while he goes muta->lurker, but I feel behind all game How would you recommend responding? ahahah ok. well i would NOT put scvs on the ramp. i would consider putting 2 there. just stop position them at the bottom. the lings will attack and the scvs will run away a little bit. stop position them again. repeat this but dont let them die. this will slow the lings down as they try to get up the ramp. finish that bunker up and keep rallying marines into it. all you have to do is dance lots of scvs around. do not lose scvs. you should be able to get the bunker up pretty easily using mining commands on your scvs blocking your marines. i would definitely stay 1 base vs a 4pooler. infact i would consider rushing to a wraith so i could be absolutely sure what he was doing. also the punishment of killing a couple overlords will hurt him really badly due to the bad economy of the 4pool (low on minerals). if he is going for a lurker followup get spider mines and vultures off of 1 factory. the wraith will ahve killed any overlords near by so he wont be able to hurt you. my end game vs this bastard would be 2 tanks a group and a half of marine medic and a vessel. at that timing if you didnt lose too many scvs he shouldnt be able to stop you. just play safe + one strong push. | ||
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On March 08 2009 15:28 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Much like sleeping on a leather couch in NY? The things you do for bw.. LOL no im not stuck to my bed in the morning. i do not feel moist in the morning. i am DRY. it feels like a hangover. | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
thanks | ||
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ramen247
United States1256 Posts
dropships get scourged and sniped or sunkened. vessesl numbers arent amazingly high. | ||
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extracheez
Australia151 Posts
On March 08 2009 14:05 Artosis wrote: i feel like helping some people. ask me some questions about terran. be as SPECIFIC as you can. i'll answer anything that is asked correctly (and that i feel qualified to answer) as best i can. I've been playing terran for a while now and I only ever made it to D+, my problem is I seem to lose track of my macro and miss a building here and there or not produce enough units. So I've started making games with no players and just going through my builds over and over again to try and memorise them. 4 questions: 1. Is there any better way to memorise builds? 2. Should I scrap my idea and just start playing regular matches? 3. What builds should I learn first? I'm currently trying to memorize flash strat and a 3tank 1 vessle timing push for tvp and tvz, are these decent builds to focus on? 4. How do you hotkey your units and buildings? | ||
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
firebat, siege tank, spider mine, nuke, Valkyrie, irradiate.. and we can make an argument for EMP which does have damage to all P units (basically). For a grand total of 6 (7 if we count emp) Zerg has: lurker attack, infested marine, plague, muta devourer. For a grand total of 5. Should be noted that infested marines have to be stolen from terrans, devourers only attack air and the splash doesn't actually damage units by itself, plague is a stronger version of emp so I will count it. Protoss: storm, reaver, corsair. | ||
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On March 08 2009 15:33 alphafuzard wrote: Need some help on my TvT Some questions that went unanswered in a previous "gimme questions" thread. For TvT -Strengths and weaknesses of various opening builds -Transitioning (Tank/wraith to tank/gol, or tankvult to tank gol) -When to make bc's -When to contain, where to contain -What maps encourage what unit combinations (specific or rule-of-thumb) -How to keep map control when army sizes are fairly equal -Upgrade timings -Ideal drop ship counts Some are pretty broad, but feel free to go over whichever ones you want and to whatever depth. -Strengths and weaknesses of various opening builds 1fact 1star: execution based. if you can't execute it well you will get run over. otherwise very robust + strong. 2fact tank: dies to anything with a starport + 2fact vultures. 2fact gol/tank: not that good against vulture openings. very poor against 1factory expand, especially if he scouted you doing this build. 1factory siege expand: very slow and can be contained somewhat easily. 1factory vulture expand: can be super weak to a 2factory build or a delayed 1factory vulture expand with marines. also it can be hard to properly scout what your opponent is doing. 2factory vulture (no addons): destroys 1factory vulture expand quite hard. not particularly good vs anything else. 2factory vulture (addons): very bad vs 1factory vulture expand. you will get overwhelmed by 3-4 fact vultures with speed. 14cc: dies to 8rax. 8rax: kind of random. you don't really have a say over whether or not it works unless they went 14cc. -Transitioning (Tank/wraith to tank/gol, or tankvult to tank gol) it takes lots of games to figure this out exactly. its really hard for me to put into words. gol/tank isnt that good. normally you will transition from tank/wraith into tank/vult or pure tank nowadays. the transitions matter upon so much its really hard for me to just explain it in general terms, sorry. -When to make bc's BCs only work on some maps. normally easily defensible maps. maps like Blue Storm, Python, Shin Chupung-Ryeong are good examples of BC maps. you go BC on these maps when it becomes impossible to die or to attack successfully. these maps are really easy to defend on and games often times go to that level. on the other hand some maps are very very very hard to defend well. 2 good examples would be Tau Cross and Medusa. Medusa is a really twisty map with that high ground around your base. it would be useless to have units up there. theres just too much ground to cover. that makes dropship based late-game play very strong. you just cannot defend everywhere. likewise on tau cross the main bases are hugely long, and there are cliffs over expos. are you really going to keep a ton of units in your main base to defend your depot clumps at the back? no of course not. theres just too much ground to cover. this is another example of a late game dropship map. -When to contain, where to contain kind of hard to explain exactly as theres so much involved. it really depends upon so much lol really hard to explain this. i guess a good example of a good place to contain would be on Shin Chupung-Ryeong. You can set up an area that is going to be near-impossible to break. its a thin map so its going to force your opponent into dropships. when you know hes forced into dropships, you can really prepare yourself for them to minimize the damage he will do to you. sorry i can't go too indepth here, its a bit too complex. -What maps encourage what unit combinations (specific or rule-of-thumb) ramped maps like dropships tanks and goliaths. open//flat maps like vultures and tanks. easily defensible maps like late game bcs. poorly defensible maps like late game dropship/tank/gol. -How to keep map control when army sizes are fairly equal if you have similar army sizes, siege up. sieged tanks > tanks without siege. keep an eye out for dropships. follow his dropship movement with your own. -Upgrade timings all you care about TvT (for the most part) is +2 attack to mech. get it fasttttttt. not as fast as in TvP with the flash build, but i suggest that after you have your first four facts or so you should start your journey to +2 attack and never stop it. also in a game that goes to BCs, its important to upgrade BCs fully. armor and attack are both quite important, moreso than an extra couple BCs. -Ideal drop ship counts 1 dropship is a nuisance. 2 dropships is a real and serious harass. in the super late game u could possibly get like ~8 dropships on a map like tau cross. other than that you have to be careful. if you make too many dropships in the early game, an opponent with no dropships but good unit movement will be able to overwhelm you. | ||
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Ideas
United States8173 Posts
On March 08 2009 16:19 {88}iNcontroL wrote: Interesting fact: The race with the most splash damage(I define this as a spell, attack or anything that damages enemy units): terran firebat, siege tank, spider mine, nuke, Valkyrie, irradiate.. and we can make an argument for EMP which does have damage to all P units (basically). For a grand total of 6 (7 if we count emp) Zerg has: lurker attack, infested marine, plague, muta devourer. For a grand total of 5. Should be noted that infested marines have to be stolen from terrans, devourers only attack air and the splash doesn't actually damage units by itself, plague is a stronger version of emp so I will count it. Protoss: storm, reaver, corsair. we also have the mot useful spell ever ensnare that is so useful in fact id say it rivals irradiate thats why sc is so great all the spells are so equal | ||
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On March 08 2009 15:36 AttackZerg wrote: Artosis as a b-/b zerg I would like to know specific timing windows and build transitions that terran american or korean find hard to adapt. Basicly what is the easiest way to beat a terran that is better then you mechanically? defilers. it doesn't matter how many marines he has if you are really good at defiler use. check out as many ToT)XiaOzI( replays as you can. i've seen him beat lots of top terran players with 1/3rd their supply due to defiler stalling + plagues. | ||
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On March 08 2009 15:40 n.DieJokes wrote: What is the most annoying thing a zerg can do to harass a terran? running tiny amounts of zerglings around to harass turret making at your expansion (and when you go to kill them running a couple into your main.) when xiaozi does this to me i want to die. | ||
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Splendour
Bulgaria129 Posts
2) Is it worth it getting more than 3 comsat stations ? 3) In situations where ur enemy is a protoss who has 8-12 carriers and the rest dragoons and high templars, from how many factories should u make tanks (assuming ur initial tank count has been really lowered from the carriers) | ||
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On March 08 2009 15:40 Kinky wrote: In a TvT, when should you opt for Vultures first instead of Gols/Tanks? And if you do, when's a good time to transition higher into the tech tree? Also, how do you go up against a Gol/Sieged Tank army with Vultures? I feel like they melt too easily before they even get mines out. by opening vulture/tank vs gol/tank, you are the one who should have map control. it is he who will have to worry about engaging you and your contain. if he opens gol/tank don't open pure vulture. vulture/tank will smash that to bits. | ||
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On March 08 2009 15:48 Sprite wrote: Artosis do you prefer Mech builds TvZ or do you stick straight with the bio/SKterran action? (depending on map of course.) i prefer sk terran. mech builds...eh. i already use them in the other matchups. marine medic is more fun, and more robust overall. | ||
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On March 08 2009 15:51 SkepTicAL wrote: As a fellow Terran Artosis, I would like to know the diet one should take in order to increase their skill 3 ranks. vegetarian gogo. | ||
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Artosis
United States2140 Posts
On March 08 2009 16:09 ramen247 wrote: how do you kill a zerg after he gets a defiler? dropships get scourged and sniped or sunkened. vessesl numbers arent amazingly high. you really should have a good number of vessels. keep them pumping. stop making siege tanks. you need 2 ports 100%. if you start to gain a real lead but just cant break through, make some extra firebats to exacerbate the lead. (similar to making mass goons vs zerg when you are already a little bit ahead). you need to harass constantly with dropships + moving your army back and forth. he will be using nydus so make him use it a lot. pick off ANYTHING you can. make sure you have 3 gasses running at this point as well. | ||
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