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I still think overpool or 11 pool speedlings into 2 hatch hydra is the most hardcore counter to a build that doesn't get any units at all execpt for the odd vulture the first 5+ minutes of the game.
And that wasn't 2 hatch muta, it was 1 hatch muta with second hatch in main. The ecconomy difference between that and 2 hatch muta (with exp) and no lings at all is huuuge.
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Braavos36400 Posts
On October 24 2008 02:16 Louder wrote:
I don't understand why this build is considered such a revolutionary thing. It has the same weaknesses metal has always had going into the mid and late games vs Z, just adapted to deal with common modern Z openings. Mass units with upgrades + flanking and defilers in late game... what's the mystery?
its different because of the vulture drop and valks
mech is weak against mass muta, you can always just counter their base with 2 groups when they move out, but fantasy's build gives the T much better mobility with the valks
the vulture runby/drop threat in the beginning also keeps the zerg from being able to expand or skimp on defense as freely as they would as GGPlay did vs Flash on Medusa
also, its revolutionary because it's never been done before and defeated an in-form Zerg in the OSL semis by overturning conventional play, thats basically the definition of revolutionary
i don't see how someone can see this as anything but revolutionary
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On October 23 2008 22:58 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2008 22:11 d(O.o)a wrote:
9pool speed has never failed me against iccup players in the d/d+/c- level. And considering I almost always open 9pool speed zvt because I practice ling micro way too much and can effectively micro lings while expanding/teching it is just so good against tech builds. 9 speed against a build with a wallin? good plan best way to play vs it is to just mass expand and hydra/muta/ling into hive tech stuff. (MASS mass expand, like ggplay vs flash in osl on medusa) you can mix in drops with that style but if hes ready for 1 decent mid game drop and obliterates it you're gonna get run over, so its kinda risky.
Idra knows best.
plagu = gg
mass expand/mass units = gg
dark swarm = gg
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I'd go 5 pool if anything.
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yuck... fantasy build?
i think it should be called Oov build considering he coached and sort of created it.
as good as fantasy is right now, i don't feel that he deserves to have a revolutionary build named after him especially if he only partly made it up.
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On October 24 2008 08:20 capek wrote:
yuck... fantasy build?
i think it should be called Oov build considering he coached and sort of created it.
as good as fantasy is right now, i don't feel that he deserves to have a revolutionary build named after him especially if he only partly made it up. Bisu gave extremely little changes to Dazeangs build, who Daezang himself probably formed the build through a collaborative effort from his team.
So no, Fantasy has as much legitimacy to have the build named after him as Bisu, Flash, or any other pro gamer does- as in, they made the build famous, so they get the name.
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On October 24 2008 03:29 rei wrote:And this is  JulyZerg's 2hatch mutalisks going up against  go.go using the Fantasy build. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n1sFUjNexrQgo.go smelled the 2 hatch muta he didn't expand, instead he built 4 goliaths and 1 valk before he put up the expansion, in fact he didn't even made any mines till late game which resulted in JulyZerg obliterated his entire army with a uber flank.
+ Show Spoiler +July ended up losing that game though =\ did you watch it all the way through?
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the result of Julyzerg vs gogo was not because of the fantasy build, it was a matter of decision making and execution.
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On October 24 2008 08:20 capek wrote:
yuck... fantasy build?
i think it should be called Oov build considering he coached and sort of created it.
as good as fantasy is right now, i don't feel that he deserves to have a revolutionary build named after him especially if he only partly made it up.
Than can't we call it the boxer build because boxer coached Oov?
Your logic is incredibly fallible.
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It requires a lot of multitasking to get up expansions vs this build (at least for me). You're basically stuck on 2 base (or 3 if the map permits) until you get overlord speed, and then you are slowing pushing out and clearing mines, and you need to keep a few hydras to cover your Olords from valks. I've only played 2 games so far vs this build, but both times mines were such a big problem (especially since only 1 mine is needed to kill hydras, unlike zeals and goons). If you are able to scout that the Terren is going fantasy build, I advice attacking as soon as overlord speed finishes and you have about 2-3 groups of hydras +any lings. They are still pretty weak before hitting critical mass and I think they will only have a small # of tanks still, so you can send in lings 1st to take the 1st shots and then snipe tanks really quick.
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On October 24 2008 12:24 d(O.o)a wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2008 08:20 capek wrote:
yuck... fantasy build?
i think it should be called Oov build considering he coached and sort of created it.
as good as fantasy is right now, i don't feel that he deserves to have a revolutionary build named after him especially if he only partly made it up. Than can't we call it the boxer build because boxer coached Oov? Your logic is incredibly fallible.
But didn't Boxer do this valk / mech build the other day? Before fantasy?
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Doesn't defilers hard counter any variation of terran metal with ease on late game?
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On October 24 2008 01:39 Chill wrote:
Um, GGPlay vs Flash is a special situation where GGPlay was at 7 gases for the majority of the game while Flash struggled to hold 3 of his own...
just as an example of what 'mass expand' means. so many zerg just get their 3-4 gases up quick and and expect their units to be as efficient as they are vs bio, then wonder why all their shit melts under 15 sieged tanks.
mech lacks mobility (given that you have some hydras or sunkens to deal with vults) and you have to have a sizeable force massed up before it becomes effective, and then you have to keep that force all together or it becomes way less efficient. this means zergs can and should be taking 6-7 bases in response to it.
of course fantasy/oovs build makes this harder since the vulture drops and fast mines make it harder for zerg to get map control, but its not impossible. just harder.
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On October 24 2008 17:41 stanners wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2008 12:24 d(O.o)a wrote:On October 24 2008 08:20 capek wrote:
yuck... fantasy build?
i think it should be called Oov build considering he coached and sort of created it.
as good as fantasy is right now, i don't feel that he deserves to have a revolutionary build named after him especially if he only partly made it up. Than can't we call it the boxer build because boxer coached Oov? Your logic is incredibly fallible. But didn't Boxer do this valk / mech build the other day? Before fantasy?
No he didnt. He did valkyries with marines.
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On October 24 2008 04:34 Hot_Bid wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2008 02:16 Louder wrote:
I don't understand why this build is considered such a revolutionary thing. It has the same weaknesses metal has always had going into the mid and late games vs Z, just adapted to deal with common modern Z openings. Mass units with upgrades + flanking and defilers in late game... what's the mystery? its different because of the vulture drop and valks mech is weak against mass muta, you can always just counter their base with 2 groups when they move out, but fantasy's build gives the T much better mobility with the valks the vulture runby/drop threat in the beginning also keeps the zerg from being able to expand or skimp on defense as freely as they would as GGPlay did vs Flash on Medusa also, its revolutionary because it's never been done before and defeated an in-form Zerg in the OSL semis by overturning conventional play, thats basically the definition of revolutionary i don't see how someone can see this as anything but revolutionary
Well watching the games, it didn't seem like GGPlay made any smart decisions in dealing with the build. The build looks like it was designed to beat 1-2 very specific openings on certain maps, and relies on the Z not playing against it correctly.
I can't see a Zerg who is prepared for possible use of this build could lose to it without screwing up badly. Seeing a wall in then a quick vult with no marines being made at all - it's not the hardest build in the world to see coming. Make a few muta/scourge to defend drops and go 4 or 5 base mass hydra/ling with upgrades... what is T going to do about it? Vulture drop your expos?
The reason I don't see it as revolutionary is because I don't see it forcing Z to develop a whole new play style to counter it - it just forces Z to be more defensive early game and play for a long macro game. Bisu's PvZ or Flash's TvP forced the other races to create completely new timings to effectively deal with them and came with very strong defense against common openings from the other races. Fantasy's build just makes Zerg a little more defensive but still loses to a long macro game vs a 4-5 base zerg.
Also, I think this build would get a lot of trouble from a 2 hatch hydra rush w/ 3rd hatch at 3rd base.
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louder, i think it's the timing of mutalisk vs vulture drop, zerg can't secure a 3rd expansion before the mutalisk comes out, and the vulture drop happens before the mutalisk comes out. unless you mean sneaking a drone out and build a hatchery and not make any drones so that vultures can't do shit to it.
Once the muta are out zerg can't harrase with it, 2base zerg with a 3rd building vs 2base terran massing valks and goliaths. Assume zerg has 3 hatcheries by the time the first patch of mutas come out, there is not enough lavars to make both drones for 5 bases and units to block the huge mid game push.
I agree that a 2 hatch hydra rush will work provided that overlords overseeing the path so mine doesn't become a factor. But zerg will have to hide that den from the scouting scv, if not terran is not ganna put down that expansion before seige tank comes out with seigemode
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On October 25 2008 03:37 rei wrote:
louder, i think it's the timing of mutalisk vs vulture drop, zerg can't secure a 3rd expansion before the mutalisk comes out, and the vulture drop happens before the mutalisk comes out. unless you mean sneaking a drone out and build a hatchery and not make any drones so that vultures can't do shit to it.
Once the muta are out zerg can't harrase with it, 2base zerg with a 3rd building vs 2base terran massing valks and goliaths. Assume zerg has 3 hatcheries by the time the first patch of mutas come out, there is not enough lavars to make both drones for 5 bases and units to block the huge mid game push.
I agree that a 2 hatch hydra rush will work provided that overlords overseeing the path so mine doesn't become a factor. But zerg will have to hide that den from the scouting scv, if not terran is not ganna put down that expansion before seige tank comes out with seigemode
I'm talking about a 3 hatch before gas build with 3rd hatch at a second expo. You know you only have to defend vulture drops for a pretty long stretch of time, so you should be able to defend and expand freely. A having few vultures with mines in a dropship is not tantamount to having map control.
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If you're able to scout that the T is going mech, I think mutas are too risky (if you don't do enough damage in your window you're fucked). Hydra-Lurker seems much safer.
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On October 25 2008 07:04 Ideas wrote:
If you're able to scout that the T is going mech, I think mutas are too risky (if you don't do enough damage in your window you're fucked). Hydra-Lurker seems much safer.
lurkers are horrible vs mech untill late-game where you can swarm and tanks do zero damage. (really, burrowed units take zero damage from tanks) and hydras are only good when the terran hasnt reached criticle tank mass.
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EPT
