I had been playing for about 10 games vs my friend using this strategy the past few nights, and from those replays, I found out that this build has a point where it is fairly weak. That timing is after the first vulture comes out till tanks come in play to secure the expansion. The terran rely on spidermines and vulture drops till the tanks are ready to defend. This window of weak defense can be hit hard if zerg goes fast overlord speed and fast range hydras with 1 sunken on each expansion and 2 hydras to defend against the vulture drop.
Position overlords in the ground path between terran and zerg for a fast hydra rush Also if zerg knows the fantasy build is comming, what they can do is position their overlords on the path to the terran's base, in order to spot spidermines that way they don't even have to wait for overlord speed and hit terran hard with 6 hydras off 2 hatch before lair. If terran decide to make a wraith before dropship to kill those overlords they won't be looking at the path between the 2 bases, the wraiths goes straight into zerg base to scout or ovie hunt.
Now with that said, what can terran do to stop this? from the terran's point of view, he have 1st vulture out, run to zerg base, and found 1 sunken in natural, so he proceed to mine up a long the path between the 2 bases, he notice that the zerg is flowing slow overlords along the path between the 2 bases, so he brings his 1 marine out to make the zerg run those ovies back. But before the dropship finishes building 4 hydralisks comes to defend those slow overlords with 2 more hydralisks following. At this point terran is building an expansion, but no tank, 4 vultures 1 marine spider mine vs 6 hydralisks with overlords spoting.
Anyone else want to contribute to a possible counter vs Fantasy build?
On October 18 2008 11:36 MYM.Testie wrote: You counter it by screwing over the fact that it isn't very mobile. It is one of the reasons people used to sacrifice an overlord to scout a terrans base. If you know it's coming, and you're used to playing against mech and have a keen sense of game control, you will not be bothered by it.
If it does not hurt you early and you play a heavy drone style, you will over-run it. Likewise, if there is no early expansion you can 2 hatch muta with well placed sunkens and muta-drone with well-placed overlords to completely obliterate it. Often being able to face the army and simply crush it repeatedly (not pushing into his base) while starving him.
The valkyries are not normally an issue due to the fact they take a long time to build and scourge are so very useful against them early. After a certain amount of mutas you can often cut all muta production together for a while and just hard drone+hard expand. So he cannot come out of his base. With this knowledge you must make sure drones going to expansions all over the map are not sniped. AKA overlord speed and no wasteful movements with your mutas. So essentially, in this slow to build strategy (the terrans), you can literally take the map with well placed overlords - muta - scourge - drone while eventually switching to mass hydras while the terran has likely not built enough tanks after scanning your mass air-drone build. You should have quite an economic advantage once he is able to really mobilize and finally come out. But by then, it should always be too late and you will crush the mech force repeatedly, or in the event you can't, have bought enough time to keep him running back and forth and starving him out through a mass econ style of guerrila warfare. i.e. muta+hydradrops around his armies.
While this can be said for all strategies, and there are some truly solid mech strategies out there, mech has always worked best as a surprise. Again, like most strategies, with small timing tweaks you can make mech seem nearly invincible. It is something you every Terran should have in their arsenal, and they need to know when and why to use it. From maps - to positions - even opponent can be a factor.
Defilers are also very good against it, very laaaaate game. Why late game? Most builds against mech don't have a proper transition period to defilers. As in, it leaves a weakness to be exploited to tech up to those units which take quite a while before they can be put into use effectively with plague. I recall beating a good mech terran with equal money in the past with muta-hydra turned into queen-broodling-hydra as well. So there are other options.
Queens could be an interesting counter - ensnare will help vs any large amounts of valkyries, and also help your +1 armor muta and ling attack vs their pure gol/valk army. I think it's worth a valid consideration at least, someone should try its effectiveness.
in essence, the fantasy build seems to defend against zerg's midgame air and land with high efficiency units. valkyries against air. tanks against hydras. bunkers/mines against zerglings. However, most of the damage seems to come from tanks, especially if T forsakes expanding for fast tech. And Terran is able to compensate for the immobility of this build by preventing muta backstabs with valk's mobility.
zerg seems to be able to do well when they are able to use high efficiency units back against these three T units. Thus, scourge owning valks allows mutas to roam free. dark swarm and plague against bunkers allow zerglings to break through -- zerglings are pretty good against mines anyway. but tanks are the hard part of this matchup, because they're so far and that in early mid game zerg can't reach the tanks that have bunker/valk support.
so i think queens are the answer. they can oneshot the few tanks T has and allow the lurkers/hydras to storm up the ramp to kill bunkers/rax. also, building a typical anti-bisu build with a few spore colonies should prevent the slightly possible valk ovie kills
9pool speed has never failed me against iccup players in the d/d+/c- level. And considering I almost always open 9pool speed zvt because I practice ling micro way too much and can effectively micro lings while expanding/teching it is just so good against tech builds.
On October 23 2008 22:11 d(O.o)a wrote: 9pool speed has never failed me against iccup players in the d/d+/c- level. And considering I almost always open 9pool speed zvt because I practice ling micro way too much and can effectively micro lings while expanding/teching it is just so good against tech builds.
9 speed against a build with a wallin? good plan
best way to play vs it is to just mass expand and hydra/muta/ling into hive tech stuff. (MASS mass expand, like ggplay vs flash in osl on medusa) you can mix in drops with that style but if hes ready for 1 decent mid game drop and obliterates it you're gonna get run over, so its kinda risky.
I believe also that mech works best as a surprise. You must understand that not everytime when you see a mech build, it will be the exact fantasy build. The dropship can be a make or break in this particular build, but the reason it's there is to counter a certain zerg build or a cluster of zerg builds. Drop won't work on every zerg build. at the very least, making the starport will keep a zerg honest and force a closed defense. If the zerg get's too cute and relies on a dynamic defense, they can be outmicroed by the speed of the vulture/dropship combo.
Under the particular assumptions that:Terran is going fantasy build, Terran assumes a static defense from zerg, I believe your build will work decently welll. The only problem is the fact you need to hide the number of hydras you have or else the terran will realize what is going on. All terran needs is 1 tank wall, and you're instantly behind if you don't get an advantage from your build. Reason you will be behind is that you are probably at equal bases since you invested in ov speed and range, and you will also be behind in drone count based on larva allocation throughout the build. simple macro will beat your build after that.
I think the most conservative way to play is go normal 3 hatch with speedling to counter inital vulture. drone up and know when to increase ling count. Keep perimeter overlords to never let vultures drop freely. go spire/hydra den to force the valk. 9 larva to hydras, take spacing and play expo /movement game. playing head to head against a mech is feeding into their build.
On October 23 2008 22:11 d(O.o)a wrote: 9pool speed has never failed me against iccup players in the d/d+/c- level. And considering I almost always open 9pool speed zvt because I practice ling micro way too much and can effectively micro lings while expanding/teching it is just so good against tech builds.
9 speed against a build with a wallin? good plan
best way to play vs it is to just mass expand and hydra/muta/ling into hive tech stuff. (MASS mass expand, like ggplay vs flash in osl on medusa) you can mix in drops with that style but if hes ready for 1 decent mid game drop and obliterates it you're gonna get run over, so its kinda risky.
I only harass with the initial 6 lings which stay alive as long as possible, with good ling micro them being walled in means you can shuffle zerglings easy while picking off any marines that are built. I they rarely have more than 1-2 marines by the time my lings get there and if I don't scout them I build drones instead of lings and opt for the mass expand with quicker than average lurkers into fast hive.
My intent with the zerglings is not to kill the terran simply to keep them on their toes and delay mining (albeit barely delaying but still delaying).
On October 23 2008 13:19 sqwert wrote: i like utras
pls be joking, ultras fucking suck vs terran metal.
Ultramuta kicks ass. Force them to go goli heavy, golis do no damage at all to ultras. See GGPlay vs FlaSh. But yeah, if you don't force them to go golis then you just end up vs mass spider mine mass tank which isn't so good.
Okie, so t does factory >vulture >cc >starport>more vultures+grades >armory >vulture drop> valkyrie>add facts and start gollie production, right?
For allins it looks like speedlings into 2 hatch hydra should rape it mercilessly. (Lings to deny scout obv). Problem is that I don't know if t is going to go ahead and add cc and port directly after fact when he gets no scouting.
Otherwise perhaps 12 hatch 11 pool 10 gas muta. Mutas should be out in time to nullify the drop? And also put servere preasure on t's almost undefended expansion, forcing a bunch of turrets etc. Lack of mm means that the build actually isn't very poor, you need max 2 sunks and an evo (no lings) to eleminate vulture pressure form the front so you can get quite a few drones out. If drones can be sneaked out z can grab as many expansions as he wishes. Vultures aren't a threat to buildings and mutas are out soon enough anyway.
For more crazy alternatives perhaps 3 hatch gas ling speed, pull drones of gas expand to other main drones back on gas, den, lair> whatever. Point is to deny t's ludicurus expansion (1 vulture for defense woho.) with say 12 speed lings while expanding again yourself. Now t can't drop with his first 4 vultures either since they need to defend vs the lings (unless he wants to completely give up his exp and hide behind the wall) When he finally has cleared your lings (replace them for a while). you should have 3 bases, quite a few drones and hydras to defend any gayness. Proceed with ordinary anti mech mass expand hydra/muta play.
I don't understand why this build is considered such a revolutionary thing. It has the same weaknesses metal has always had going into the mid and late games vs Z, just adapted to deal with common modern Z openings. Mass units with upgrades + flanking and defilers in late game... what's the mystery?
That's one thing I'm wondering...I don't remember from watching the games...what is the timing of the dropship? Does it come out before or after spire in a two hat spire build? And in relation to a 3 hat?
BTW Klackon, the problem with threatening with a ling backstab are the mines he'll be planting between your base and his...
to stop 9pool speedling is very easy for terran, 1 marine +2 scvs are enough on maps with ramp with a rax flowing over the scvs so lings can't target them.
and for those 2hatch fast mutalisks here is how Fantasy countered
And this is JulyZerg's 2hatch mutalisks going up against go.go using the Fantasy build.
go.go smelled the 2 hatch muta he didn't expand, instead he built 4 goliaths and 1 valk before he put up the expansion, in fact he didn't even made any mines till late game which resulted in JulyZerg obliterated his entire army with a uber flank.
On October 24 2008 03:29 rei wrote: to stop 9pool speedling is very easy for terran, 1 marine +2 scvs are enough on maps with ramp with a rax flowing over the scvs so lings can't target them.
I still think overpool or 11 pool speedlings into 2 hatch hydra is the most hardcore counter to a build that doesn't get any units at all execpt for the odd vulture the first 5+ minutes of the game. And that wasn't 2 hatch muta, it was 1 hatch muta with second hatch in main. The ecconomy difference between that and 2 hatch muta (with exp) and no lings at all is huuuge.
On October 24 2008 02:16 Louder wrote: I don't understand why this build is considered such a revolutionary thing. It has the same weaknesses metal has always had going into the mid and late games vs Z, just adapted to deal with common modern Z openings. Mass units with upgrades + flanking and defilers in late game... what's the mystery?
its different because of the vulture drop and valks
mech is weak against mass muta, you can always just counter their base with 2 groups when they move out, but fantasy's build gives the T much better mobility with the valks
the vulture runby/drop threat in the beginning also keeps the zerg from being able to expand or skimp on defense as freely as they would as GGPlay did vs Flash on Medusa
also, its revolutionary because it's never been done before and defeated an in-form Zerg in the OSL semis by overturning conventional play, thats basically the definition of revolutionary
i don't see how someone can see this as anything but revolutionary
On October 23 2008 22:11 d(O.o)a wrote: 9pool speed has never failed me against iccup players in the d/d+/c- level. And considering I almost always open 9pool speed zvt because I practice ling micro way too much and can effectively micro lings while expanding/teching it is just so good against tech builds.
9 speed against a build with a wallin? good plan
best way to play vs it is to just mass expand and hydra/muta/ling into hive tech stuff. (MASS mass expand, like ggplay vs flash in osl on medusa) you can mix in drops with that style but if hes ready for 1 decent mid game drop and obliterates it you're gonna get run over, so its kinda risky.
Idra knows best.
plagu = gg mass expand/mass units = gg dark swarm = gg
yuck... fantasy build? i think it should be called Oov build considering he coached and sort of created it. as good as fantasy is right now, i don't feel that he deserves to have a revolutionary build named after him especially if he only partly made it up.
On October 24 2008 08:20 capek wrote: yuck... fantasy build? i think it should be called Oov build considering he coached and sort of created it. as good as fantasy is right now, i don't feel that he deserves to have a revolutionary build named after him especially if he only partly made it up.
Bisu gave extremely little changes to Dazeangs build, who Daezang himself probably formed the build through a collaborative effort from his team.
So no, Fantasy has as much legitimacy to have the build named after him as Bisu, Flash, or any other pro gamer does- as in, they made the build famous, so they get the name.
go.go smelled the 2 hatch muta he didn't expand, instead he built 4 goliaths and 1 valk before he put up the expansion, in fact he didn't even made any mines till late game which resulted in JulyZerg obliterated his entire army with a uber flank.
On October 24 2008 08:20 capek wrote: yuck... fantasy build? i think it should be called Oov build considering he coached and sort of created it. as good as fantasy is right now, i don't feel that he deserves to have a revolutionary build named after him especially if he only partly made it up.
Than can't we call it the boxer build because boxer coached Oov?
It requires a lot of multitasking to get up expansions vs this build (at least for me). You're basically stuck on 2 base (or 3 if the map permits) until you get overlord speed, and then you are slowing pushing out and clearing mines, and you need to keep a few hydras to cover your Olords from valks. I've only played 2 games so far vs this build, but both times mines were such a big problem (especially since only 1 mine is needed to kill hydras, unlike zeals and goons). If you are able to scout that the Terren is going fantasy build, I advice attacking as soon as overlord speed finishes and you have about 2-3 groups of hydras +any lings. They are still pretty weak before hitting critical mass and I think they will only have a small # of tanks still, so you can send in lings 1st to take the 1st shots and then snipe tanks really quick.
On October 24 2008 08:20 capek wrote: yuck... fantasy build? i think it should be called Oov build considering he coached and sort of created it. as good as fantasy is right now, i don't feel that he deserves to have a revolutionary build named after him especially if he only partly made it up.
Than can't we call it the boxer build because boxer coached Oov?
Your logic is incredibly fallible.
But didn't Boxer do this valk / mech build the other day? Before fantasy?
On October 24 2008 01:39 Chill wrote: Um, GGPlay vs Flash is a special situation where GGPlay was at 7 gases for the majority of the game while Flash struggled to hold 3 of his own...
just as an example of what 'mass expand' means. so many zerg just get their 3-4 gases up quick and and expect their units to be as efficient as they are vs bio, then wonder why all their shit melts under 15 sieged tanks.
mech lacks mobility (given that you have some hydras or sunkens to deal with vults) and you have to have a sizeable force massed up before it becomes effective, and then you have to keep that force all together or it becomes way less efficient. this means zergs can and should be taking 6-7 bases in response to it.
of course fantasy/oovs build makes this harder since the vulture drops and fast mines make it harder for zerg to get map control, but its not impossible. just harder.
On October 24 2008 08:20 capek wrote: yuck... fantasy build? i think it should be called Oov build considering he coached and sort of created it. as good as fantasy is right now, i don't feel that he deserves to have a revolutionary build named after him especially if he only partly made it up.
Than can't we call it the boxer build because boxer coached Oov?
Your logic is incredibly fallible.
But didn't Boxer do this valk / mech build the other day? Before fantasy?
On October 24 2008 02:16 Louder wrote: I don't understand why this build is considered such a revolutionary thing. It has the same weaknesses metal has always had going into the mid and late games vs Z, just adapted to deal with common modern Z openings. Mass units with upgrades + flanking and defilers in late game... what's the mystery?
its different because of the vulture drop and valks
mech is weak against mass muta, you can always just counter their base with 2 groups when they move out, but fantasy's build gives the T much better mobility with the valks
the vulture runby/drop threat in the beginning also keeps the zerg from being able to expand or skimp on defense as freely as they would as GGPlay did vs Flash on Medusa
also, its revolutionary because it's never been done before and defeated an in-form Zerg in the OSL semis by overturning conventional play, thats basically the definition of revolutionary
i don't see how someone can see this as anything but revolutionary
Well watching the games, it didn't seem like GGPlay made any smart decisions in dealing with the build. The build looks like it was designed to beat 1-2 very specific openings on certain maps, and relies on the Z not playing against it correctly.
I can't see a Zerg who is prepared for possible use of this build could lose to it without screwing up badly. Seeing a wall in then a quick vult with no marines being made at all - it's not the hardest build in the world to see coming. Make a few muta/scourge to defend drops and go 4 or 5 base mass hydra/ling with upgrades... what is T going to do about it? Vulture drop your expos?
The reason I don't see it as revolutionary is because I don't see it forcing Z to develop a whole new play style to counter it - it just forces Z to be more defensive early game and play for a long macro game. Bisu's PvZ or Flash's TvP forced the other races to create completely new timings to effectively deal with them and came with very strong defense against common openings from the other races. Fantasy's build just makes Zerg a little more defensive but still loses to a long macro game vs a 4-5 base zerg.
Also, I think this build would get a lot of trouble from a 2 hatch hydra rush w/ 3rd hatch at 3rd base.
louder, i think it's the timing of mutalisk vs vulture drop, zerg can't secure a 3rd expansion before the mutalisk comes out, and the vulture drop happens before the mutalisk comes out. unless you mean sneaking a drone out and build a hatchery and not make any drones so that vultures can't do shit to it.
Once the muta are out zerg can't harrase with it, 2base zerg with a 3rd building vs 2base terran massing valks and goliaths. Assume zerg has 3 hatcheries by the time the first patch of mutas come out, there is not enough lavars to make both drones for 5 bases and units to block the huge mid game push.
I agree that a 2 hatch hydra rush will work provided that overlords overseeing the path so mine doesn't become a factor. But zerg will have to hide that den from the scouting scv, if not terran is not ganna put down that expansion before seige tank comes out with seigemode
On October 25 2008 03:37 rei wrote: louder, i think it's the timing of mutalisk vs vulture drop, zerg can't secure a 3rd expansion before the mutalisk comes out, and the vulture drop happens before the mutalisk comes out. unless you mean sneaking a drone out and build a hatchery and not make any drones so that vultures can't do shit to it.
Once the muta are out zerg can't harrase with it, 2base zerg with a 3rd building vs 2base terran massing valks and goliaths. Assume zerg has 3 hatcheries by the time the first patch of mutas come out, there is not enough lavars to make both drones for 5 bases and units to block the huge mid game push.
I agree that a 2 hatch hydra rush will work provided that overlords overseeing the path so mine doesn't become a factor. But zerg will have to hide that den from the scouting scv, if not terran is not ganna put down that expansion before seige tank comes out with seigemode
I'm talking about a 3 hatch before gas build with 3rd hatch at a second expo. You know you only have to defend vulture drops for a pretty long stretch of time, so you should be able to defend and expand freely. A having few vultures with mines in a dropship is not tantamount to having map control.
If you're able to scout that the T is going mech, I think mutas are too risky (if you don't do enough damage in your window you're fucked). Hydra-Lurker seems much safer.
On October 25 2008 07:04 Ideas wrote: If you're able to scout that the T is going mech, I think mutas are too risky (if you don't do enough damage in your window you're fucked). Hydra-Lurker seems much safer.
lurkers are horrible vs mech untill late-game where you can swarm and tanks do zero damage. (really, burrowed units take zero damage from tanks) and hydras are only good when the terran hasnt reached criticle tank mass.
On October 25 2008 07:04 Ideas wrote: If you're able to scout that the T is going mech, I think mutas are too risky (if you don't do enough damage in your window you're fucked). Hydra-Lurker seems much safer.
lurkers are horrible vs mech untill late-game where you can swarm and tanks do zero damage. (really, burrowed units take zero damage from tanks)
Well I mean hydra-tech, so mostly hydras with maybe some lurkers for defense or drops or something.
On October 23 2008 22:11 d(O.o)a wrote: 9pool speed has never failed me against iccup players in the d/d+/c- level. And considering I almost always open 9pool speed zvt because I practice ling micro way too much and can effectively micro lings while expanding/teching it is just so good against tech builds.
I think 9 pool is good against any Terran build at d/d+/c- level.
The counter to mech is dark swarm and plague. You need great economy management, but if T starts going mech, savior might actually destroy everyone in 09
Play like it's sair dt except no dt's so it's far less annoying. Or make a shit load of hatcherys and zerglings to hopefully take up all the sprites so valks can't fire anything.
On October 25 2008 11:55 IzzyCraft wrote: Play like it's sair dt except no dt's so it's far less annoying. Or make a shit load of hatcherys and zerglings to hopefully take up all the sprites so valks can't fire anything.
how many zerglings would that be? I thought that only refered to attack sprites as well, not unit sprits...
The build isn't new, it's been used before. I'm sure of it, because even I used it in the past, and I wasn't the one who made it for sure. What's revolutionary is the fact that it's used by progamers, during pro matches - and it's effective.
As to how to counter it... beating mech builds was always about map control and obviously that's still the case here. What changed is that it's harder to maintain, but I don't think that the usual unit mix needs to be changed (muta / ling, hydra with plague / swarm). The perfect unit combination depends on your opponent's mix, and it's very map dependant.
On October 25 2008 18:29 True_Spike wrote: The build isn't new, it's been used before. I'm sure of it, because even I used it in the past, and I wasn't the one who made it for sure. What's revolutionary is the fact that it's used by progamers, during pro matches - and it's effective.
As to how to counter it... beating mech builds was always about map control and obviously that's still the case here. What changed is that it's harder to maintain, but I don't think that the usual unit mix needs to be changed (muta / ling, hydra with plague / swarm). The perfect unit combination depends on your opponent's mix, and it's very map dependant.
fantasy build is just fucking magic. Till now it was 100 % win for me , only few times i lost was because i made huge mistakes vs some cheese allin build. And 2 hatch muta was for me the easiest strat to win against so i dont advice it from my point of view^^
wow effort's ling all in was subtle, fantasy didn't see it with his scv, effort was so patient in waiting for that one scv to die, he only chased it with one ling so fantasy did not suspect anything at all untill it was too late.
I think Savior's game was more convincing, because he constantly hit the back with muta and the front with hydras, divided the terran army. and he never fought straight up because the harrase allowed him to take a lot of expansions. Trading bases when the terran finally pushes out instead of fighting head on like julyzerg did was the key.
here are a few games that i tried the fantasy build. i find it extremely versatile and powerful because you can see exactly what the zerg is doing. Plus mech is great vs ultra/lurker/muta.
I think fast lings into hydra is a good counter to this build.
fantasy can defend the 3 hatch speedling if he saw it comming, it was great job by effort concealing his intention until it was too late for fantasy. This is not a counter that will beat the fantasy build everytime
On October 26 2008 10:04 rei wrote: fantasy can defend the 3 hatch speedling if he saw it comming, it was great job by effort concealing his intention until it was too late for fantasy. This is not a counter that will beat the fantasy build everytime
Especially how he put his 3rd hatch in the back min-only instead of in his main or his nat, totally faked a macro build.
also the lair too, everything effort done was pointing to mutalisks, and he only use 1 zergling to chase the scouting scv, which tells fantasy that he's not even attempting to hide anything at all.
what about hydra -> hydra/muta/scourge -> hydra/guardian/scourge/(muta)? guardian+hydra > gols and hydra+scourge >>>> valks. if he overspends in either valks or gols just cos you going guardian, pumping hydras will exploit the lack of tanks. there will also be a severe lack of sci vessels (compared to SK) which slaughter guardians with irradiate.
say you scout the wall-in and spot the gas being built, you then lay down an extractor if you haven't, and a den straight after. get lair soon after and start making a few hydras with speed then range. build spire as lair finishes with overlord speed use hydras and sunks in min lines to defend harass from vultures build a few scourge when spire finishes. start teching to guardian.
this is rough and obviously cant be done if you scout the build too late.
my idea of engaging the push would go something like this.. send in guardians to pick off a gol/tank, keeping hydras nearby, but out tanks range when he responds, or just before, pull guardians a bit behind hold-hydra and scourge, then hold guards quickly. the idea is to draw gols and valks away from tanks to pick them off with hydra/scourge.
if you have gosu multitask, you could keep a muta group aside to "backstab" tanks if valks/gols stray too far out of place.
uh saivor did fend of valks... and 2nd what is so special about it? the use of valks correct, then it normal mech build so.. get some scourge with first group of muta, just like muta vs corsiar in zvp
On October 27 2008 08:18 Red.Cloud wrote: uh saivor did fend of valks... and 2nd what is so special about it? the use of valks correct, then it normal mech build so.. get some scourge with first group of muta, just like muta vs corsiar in zvp
artosis and idra practiced this build quite a bit awhile ago. testie's response is really good actually and should be taken serious. A muta opening is the only viable counter along with the proper economic push/switch to well upgraded ground (doesn't HAVE to be hydra.. in fact once they get enough tanks/vult running hydra is really bad). Basically the main point of emphasis vs that style is economy. The valks make your air superiority moot the second they hit around 8 +1 valks.. even scourge while great at weakening the force of valks become pretty much pointless. It is by the time they get to 8 or so valks that you have needed to secure 5+ gas and a great mix of ground units with solid upgrades to be able to LIMIT the terran to its naturals and just simply dry them up. Attacking into a minefield with a mass of tanks is horrible so you just have to wait until they try and position an expo or get too aggressive and move out at you. If they turtle up like a real fag go drops and harrass the main/drop tank clusters.
What was up with Fantasy scouting the area behind the min only? Maybe he was checking for a 4th hatch or something but he didn't keep the scv alive for very long. 3 hatch ling will even fuck a bio terran if he doesn't scout it.
2nd- Micro errors. Effort was doing some nice surrounds but Fantasy wasn't helping by running vults into ling piles.
3rd- When he saw the first set of lings and his vults were dying he should have Lifted nat, ran scvs, walled choke. Leave scvs to repair wall.
So ya 3 hatch lings killed it once, but is it the absolute counter? no
What savior did was a lot more convincing than what effort did. I would like to see an example of Iloveoov doing this build against a good zerg.
On the side note, after Savior ran his mouth on the entire SKT team the next time he come up against another SK terran he would have to expect them use mech against him.
The Fantasy builds seem impressive but I doubt it would make a debut like how the Bisu build actually came in with a bang. Maybe facing all that corsair DTs made Savior more able to counter something like a Fantasy build.
I think it could become a standard opening because it really counters zerg efficiently. It could also be very deadly if you went MM after getting valks to counter 2 hatch muta. Its versatile and i dont see why it could not become standard. It is after all a modified FE.
On October 27 2008 12:47 JMave wrote: The Fantasy builds seem impressive but I doubt it would make a debut like how the Bisu build actually came in with a bang. Maybe facing all that corsair DTs made Savior more able to counter something like a Fantasy build.
Well yeah the bisu buidl took out savior with a BANG haha and every protoss on earth orgasmed I'm sure.
-Your thoughts regarding the new Mechanic strategy? -Well... I don't really believe it's anything new or special... That build has been used before... and... tens and hundreds of Terran progamers knew about it... if that build was so powerful, why didn't anyone use it before? The build is not good and that's why they didn't use it. As you can see today, two of our zergs won against two of SKT1 terrans, who are known to have the best Mechanic Terrans, by beating that very mechanic strategy. So I'm not really concerned at all.
From the mouth of Savior. Good to know those of us who said the strategy was nothing special were on the money.
i like the queen idea, its not used much in zvt..much like a mech build. but with broodling/parasite u can keep a couple in your base tag vultures as they drop and then parasite the dropship which forces the terran to:
1) kill his own dropship which ruins having played for that build.
2) get the almost useless (zvt) restoration spell which is too costly to use on anything but a poor plague hit or the parasites u almost never see.
3) keep his dropship away from his xpac's giving you the knowledge that he hasnt xpanded there thus telling u with less scouting where he is by means of where hes keeping his dropship away from.
T has around 5 valks, high tank ratio in the goliath army and hes moving out to blow me up. However, i am ahead in economy because i succesfully expoed / kept him in his base through 6 mutas harassing and a ton of hydra to flank him when he had previously moved out.
Should my army be comprised of only hydras because of his valkyries+Gol (like 2/2) combo? or should I have a bunch of mutas as well?
On November 13 2008 22:06 FortuneSyn wrote: Question (mid-late game)
T has around 5 valks, high tank ratio in the goliath army and hes moving out to blow me up. However, i am ahead in economy because i succesfully expoed / kept him in his base through 6 mutas harassing and a ton of hydra to flank him when he had previously moved out.
Should my army be comprised of only hydras because of his valkyries+Gol (like 2/2) combo? or should I have a bunch of mutas as well?
If you can outmass and flank the gols and he doesn't have tanks mutas would be a waste . Maybe if you can take out the valks you can add Mutas later .
I have played against it many times now, and ive found that 2 hatch muta is really good against it, if u can control scourge against valkyries.
But some important things to do is: Build one sunken at your exp and a few lings to prevent a runby with his first vult. Know the timing of his vulture drop and make a sunken in ur mineralline in ur main jsut before he drops you.
When u get muta herass him to death and scourge those valkyries and ling his exp. The key that u will have enough mutas when his golis start to pop and you should have taken care of his valks.
2 hatch mutas so easily neuters the Fantasy mech build, because in order to survive the first 6 mutas he will need to get a few turrets and a quick valk, effectively slowing down the CC and ruling out any chance of a drop working. This means you're back to square one as far as any mech build goes: Pinned in your base with little chance of preventing the zerg from mass expanding
On November 13 2008 22:06 FortuneSyn wrote: Question (mid-late game)
T has around 5 valks, high tank ratio in the goliath army and hes moving out to blow me up. However, i am ahead in economy because i succesfully expoed / kept him in his base through 6 mutas harassing and a ton of hydra to flank him when he had previously moved out.
Should my army be comprised of only hydras because of his valkyries+Gol (like 2/2) combo? or should I have a bunch of mutas as well?
If you can outmass and flank the gols and he doesn't have tanks mutas would be a waste . Maybe if you can take out the valks you can add Mutas later .
Let me rephrase the question:
What is the optimum army mix vs 8 tanks, 12 gols, 5 valks moving towards ur main?
I got to this point in a game because i went hydra heavy and made only 6 muta for harass.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Hot_Bid/Effort_vs_Fantasy.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.gamereplays.org/community/uploads/post-14673-1190869069.jpg)
