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Calgary25977 Posts
This isn't so much a guide as it is an explanation with the hopes of opening a few shut eyes.
I was playing my friend Josh Zerg versus Terran. Josh is kind of a strange player in that he rarely gets into the mid game, and if he does he’ll be insurmountably behind. I always answered his vague questions about what to do better until a few days ago when I wondered where his problem was that he always emerged out of the early game behind. The early game requires a lot of minerals going towards infrastructure, so it’s hard to have bad early game macro, so that wasn’t it. He would kill Lurkers fairly easily with Marines and Medics, so his early game micro was fine. He would build Turrets and Bunkers in the right places. His build orders were solid. He would often play risky and end up hard countering my build with his, but I still would end up ahead. It was only two days ago that I realized (along with Soyu) what his problem was.
Josh has no timing.
What is timing?
There are many types of timing and some are barely related to others. They are, however, joined by one fact: Timing is maximizing your advantage at a certain relative game time. Vague as it sounds, that’s the best definition I can come up that covers all forms of timing. Timing is walking as close to the cliff as possible at all times without falling over. The closer to the edge you are now, the further your advantage should be pressed in the future. Let’s look at the classic example of timing, static defence:
Static defence timing
Imagine all things equal, you know your opponent is going Mutalisks. Be it map hack, SCV scout or good scan, you see the Spire and 3 Hatcheries. Because you did an FE build, you are going to need Turrets. Ignoring Turret placement and Mutalisks numbers and micro for the time being, let’s pretend Mutalisks’ and Turrets’ power stacks linearly. Assume each Turret kills 3 Mutalisks.
Obviously we can see we need 3 Turrets at each base. When should we build them? We want all there Turrets to finish the second the Mutalisks move into range to attack, because by putting off building those Turrets until then, we have saved their cost until the last possible moment. This is the most basic form of timing and should be easy for all to see.
Now, let’s advance this analysis one step further. What can we do to delay Turret production further? It may not seem like anything, because we are already building Turrets at the last possible second, and further and the Turrets will be taking damage while building and we will lose all the Turrets. If, however, the base layout is such that we can assume our reasonable opponent will first attack one of our bases rather than the other, we can delay Turret production slightly at the second base.
I AM NOT SUGGESTING YOU DO THIS IN A REAL GAME. This is simply an example.
So by waiting as long as possible to build static defence, we get more SCVs and more infrastructure built before we “waste” money on defence. This should be easily seen by all up to now.
Static defence buildup
Let’s expand this further yet again. In the first example, we knew when the Mutalisks were coming. Timing with perfect information is nothing to brag about – you can see how long it will take the enemy to come attack you and can prepare accordingly. Timing with limited or no information is a skill to desire.
With no initial scouting, should a Zerg build 5 Sunken Colonies to stop a Sparks attack, or 2 Sunken Colonies to stop a 1 Barracks Academy rush? It’s a loaded question since the situation is unrealistic; however, with no information you must time your defence to stop both attacks, 2 Sunken Colonies at the first timing, adding more every time an attack is likely.
This is similar to an FE Protoss stopping a 3 Hatch Hydralisk FE-break attack. The first example would have Protoss build no Cannons until he saw Hydralisks coming, and then warp in just enough to live the attack. This is obviously unreasonable, as it leaves Protoss vulnerable to any attack that would come before the Hydralisk push time. This is why you must understand the concept of buildup, to improve your defences appropriately at each likely attack time.
Attack timing
The concept of static defence timing is a fairly simple one to comprehend. We can now move further forward into attack timing. Typically when you hear a player branded with “great timing”, it is his attack timing that is getting praised.
Let’s look at a “standard” Zerg versus Terran match. Terran does FE off 1 or 2 Barracks with one to six Marines. Zerg does 12 Hatch 11 Pool 13 Hatch making all Drones and heading towards Lair. Terran applies pressure until Mutalisks are out when he returns home to defend. Zerg continues to expand, getting Lurkers out and heading straight for Hive and Defilers. Terran begins to move out with Tanks, Marines, Medics and Vessels, fighting Lurkers, Zerglings and Defilers until someone get pushed back, loses and expansion and the game.
Now, let’s identify when each player is weak, starting with Zerg. Once Medics and Stimpacks are researched, Zerglings can no longer deal with the Terran army. Similarly, once the Muta harass is over, in the time before Zerg can defend his expansions with Lurkers, he is weak. He is weak once again during the transition when he is waiting for Defilers. These are all key times for the Terran to attack. Watch for it in games of strong players, I guarantee Terran will move out at exactly all three of those times, because they are so crucial times when Zerg is weak.
We can also see when Terran is weak. Once Mutalisks are out, Zerg has free reign of the map and Terran is weak. Similarly, once Lurkers are out Terran often doesn’t have Tanks or Vessels to deal with them, so they are again weak. Terran is weak again when Defilers initially come out, because he shouldn’t have a great deal of tech to be able to easily fight them at that point. Unlike Terran, these are not necessarily points when Zerg should attack. Terran’s “weakness” may come from loss of map control, and Zerg should use that to expand. In other cases, such as Defilers, it is an opportune time to attack.
You should always be using timing to your advantage. If you FE as Terran, you can assume Protoss wil double Nexus in response. If you time your army to attack at the critical moment when he has paid for his expansion but not gotten any benefit from it, you may be able to break it.
This is the critical idea to timing attacks – you attack someone when they have spent resources but have not yet gotten any benefit from it. If you mistype your attack too soon they will not have spent the resources and will be able to crush you, but if you wait too long they will have the added benefit of whatever they spend resources on (new expansion – more minerals and hence more units, or new tech – able to counter your attack because you haven’t teched because you were doing a timing attack). Players relying on timing attacks walk a thin line between attacking too early or too late, but if timed right timing attacks are the most devastating attacks in the game.
Production timing
Production timing is the balancing act of infrastructure, tech, economy, and army size. The theory of it is far too complicated to go into extensive theoretical detail, so instead we will rely on vague theories and examples.
Production timing is like static defence timing but with more options and is heavily tied to attack timing. If you are planning on attacking in 3 minutes, should you cut workers now and build only units, or cut them in 2 minutes and build units? Which gives you the largest possible army 3 minutes from now? If you know when you are going to be doing a timing attack, production timing makes that army as strong as possible. An example of this is FireBatHero versus Savior on Katrina. FBH cuts units and Turrets in order to get seven Barracks producing units by the time Mutalisks are out. The result is a midgame timing attack before Lurkers that Savior’s Mutalisks cannot hold back. This is a true timing attack, but the main thing to take awhile from this game is the timing of production. FireBatHero maximizes his economy by making as few units as possible, and then transitions into maximizing his army by making few workers and static defence as he approaches the time to attack.
Counter-production timing
StarCraft often works in a Rock-Paper-Scissors cyclical nature. If you look at what I’ve said earlier, Zerg is weak after the Mutalisk harass is defended and they don’t have Lurkers out. Why? Because they’ve spent time and resources (on buildings, research and morphing Lurkers) and they haven’t got any benefit from this. So a Terran timing attack at this point would be strong.
But as a Zerg player, you know you’re weak to this timing attack. So what if you time your army to be maximized when his timing attack comes? This is the essence of counter-timing. As difficult as timing is to master, counter-timing is that much more difficult.
Let’s examine the possibilities in the Zerg versus Terran scenario. If all goes according to plan, Terran moves out with his timing attack, but Zerg hasn’t even made a Hydralisk Den. He has instead decided to focus on pure MutaLing. Terran moves out, expecting to find a dwindling Zerg economy stalling for time while Lurkers are morphing, and instead finds a massive MutaLing army that crushes him.
Let’s reply the scenario with a smarter Terran. Terran first notices that Zerg is still making Mutalisks through this early midgame. After scouting, he realizes there is no Hydralisk Den, so Zerg much have shifted his production for a counter-timing attack. As a result, Terran shifts his timing. He will wait until Zerg places an expansion or Hydralisk Den and then attempt his timing attack yet again.
This is the dance of StarCraft timing; Having a timing that works on standards games, but realizing why it works so that you may shift your timing to adapt to what you see.
Summary
I hope you can understand why timing is so important in any real-time, competitive situation. You must time your defences to avoid wasted resources. You must time your attacks when your opponent is weakest. You must time your production so that you maximize your economy or army when necessary.
This is why you will often hear Hot_Bid’s clichéd “He made a Sunken Colony??? That’s like 10 Drones lost.” and “Those eggs better all be Drones.”
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On January 26 2008 08:39 zulu_nation8 wrote:
terrible
made me giggle 
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mostly pretty obvious stuff to the experienced gamer, but well-written nonetheless
perhaps mention something about stalling your opponent to wait for your own timing to kick in
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
nice! most starting players have absolutely zero sense of this, and it keeps them from advancing to the next level beyond just macro macro macro attack move attack move
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Good stuff. Thankfully it didn't conflict majorly with what I had in mind about how timing worked in starcraft.
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Good shit Chill.
Some interesting stuff in there that I didn't know :O
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Thanks for the guide.
I consider myself an "okay" player and I think I learned a few things from this, specifically about "counter-timing" - never gave this concept much thought.
(On second thought, I'm probably just a terrible player).
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Thanks for the guide. I'm a noob and I sort of had a general sense of this stuff but it's good to see it solidly written up. Helped alot =D
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<-- Josh  lol. Thanks Blake <3
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Baltimore, USA22251 Posts
Very nice Chill. I admittedly don't step into the Strat forum too often but I'm very glad I did.
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Sweet post there Chill, lots of useful info for a shitty player like myself.
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BTW, why doesn't the thread title have a ! behind it? It's a great guide and worthy of being put into the recommended threads
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Nice stuff, thanks for taking the time to write this up.
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On January 26 2008 08:39 zulu_nation8 wrote:
terrible
sometimes, posts like this makes me wonder if chill PMs guys like this(even though theyre friends or whatever) and be all like "WARNING!!" heh.
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nice chill, cemented some of my ideas about timign that i don't talk about, i think i have very weak timing, but my micro and macro are strong, but without timing those become relatively useless :/
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Canada9720 Posts
all of us sing about this
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We V-tec players have been doing this for years...
Haha, jk - nice guide Chill
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Very well written, it's a more theorical approach to important aspects of the game that we usually experience and try to improve, it could help those who never thought about it.
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I know quite a few "Joshs" =)
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Very nice writeup, appreciate your efforts. I think you pronounced something which is commonly known to the experienced player, yet totally unknown to the beginner. You should make it a sticky within the beginner section of your recommended threads collection.
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Btw, I too think this deserves to be in the recommanded threads.
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As others have said, the counter production timing thing was new for me. Thanks for the writeup.
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Wow, the concept of counter-timing opened a few doors for me. Thanks Chill
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Great guide, helped me a lot. Please make more!
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Indeed, Thanks for this... Any elaboration upon particular match-ups would be amazing
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well writen guide
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What about halting production from previously built buildings such as gateways or factories in an effort to get more buildings quicker?
Let's say you know 2 gas can support 4 fact tank pumping. After 1 fact cc'ing, you halt production at first fact until all 4 facts come online, then produce from all 4 in synchronization, thus simplifying macro?
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That firebathero game was amazing, as was your guide. Thanks a bunch =D.
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Good article, thank you. Perhaps a list of typical timings (you already mentionned academy, muta, lurker, defiler) would futher illuminate the issue.
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On January 31 2008 10:01 nevake wrote:
That firebathero game was amazing, as was your guide. Thanks a bunch =D.
HEY
I was really pissed when Savior lost like that 
Not exactly sure on the timing but there's a moment when the camera goes to his face and he looks like sorta-resigned "wtf" look
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Thanks, timing is something I still completely lack but I hope it'll come with time and experience.
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Awesome, very well written.
Still, to pro-players, this is like scratching the surface of gaming
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Great article Chill. Thanks for sharing it. I just want to know what are the easiest way to see these timings? Do you play games against various people and then observe, or do you watch from replays/VODS? As an SC newbie, understanding this method of expansion/teching is a little hard :/.
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infinity21
Canada6683 Posts
This just occured to me but try to take measure your build order's timing. Taking TvZ as an example at xx:xx you'd make your first mnm push, and at yy:yy, your first science vessel comes out for the push, etc. Then time it with the zerg's build orders. You will then be able to modify your build so your timing matches with the timing when the zerg is weak (as mentioned in the article). Of course, when you're actually playing a real game the timing differs slightly. But you should get a good idea of when to move out and when to defend.
I'm gonna try this as soon as I have some free time. =)
This will lead me to come up with my own variations of builds, etc. Even practicing against the computer, I can try to optimize my build so I maximize my power (in terms of unit count, tech, etc.) during these pushes.
It's like I just discovered SC. That was an englightening article, Blake =)
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This article was amazing, I've been asking for this for forever, as I've been so lost when people talk about timing pushes and whatnot.
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I definitely needed a reminder of this Chill. Thanks a lot!
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Great article, very helpful to those that would need help the most. Also, thanks to who bumped this!
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Yeah, as the target audience for this article, I can safely say that it spoke to me.
Very good tips.
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Timing is THE definitive skill that separates the pros from the newbs.
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Okay so Chill explained what timing was, but I still suck at it cuz he gave us no hint in how to improve our timing!
BOOO
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I asked Chill if I was allowed to Bump this thread, and he said I could so please don't hate. My name is Josh, I'm who he was referring to in his post. I just wanted to explain it for some people who might be at the same fault I am, for others it's probably common knowledge. When I use to play Chill, I use to rely on attacks that focused around the early game, because I knew late game was a very bad time for me, like he said, I'd always go into late game way behind and little chance of wining. I knew timing played a factor, but, I think my mindset was "Oh, timing, yeah, I think strategy is more important". Basically, I thought I could overlook it and just counter what he did and still be effective.
My confusion was this: Timing does not directly referr to "Time". It's not a specific "Time" in which you need to attack. For example, I thought a "Timing" push related to massing your units and pushing at a certin, literal time in the game (ex: 12:00 minutes into the game). However, that was not the case. It's more or less when your opponent is at their weakest and your at your strongest, or aim to be for this window. So the concept of Timing is situational, I don't believe it's something you can learn directly from replays. I mean, you can study them and say "Ok, as soon as he gets his 3rd I'll attack" and you could be effective, but you wouldn't understand the concept and you would be fucked for scenarios that may present themselves in your game that the "replays" failed to provide.
So, as I told Chill. I was staring at the one line "Josh has no timing" and now I'm thinking to myself "Josh has SOME timing".
As for the last post, I believe you really improve your understanding of it, which I don't think you even have to game to do. There are other factors, like scouting, etc, which will tell you how/when to take advantage of this window, but a good understanding of what it is, I believe, is more important than mass gaming and not knowing what it is. In my experience, I've seen a lot of players who have got better explain that it's really just your mindset and that's totally true. StarCraft requires a lot of understanding, and opening your mind to this will help you improve greatly.
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Chill you just revolutionized my in game thinking -.- thanks
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Nice addition Dante Well said!
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Great guide.
Kwark taught me a lot on PvZ timing, some things I didn't even think of but are so obvious and simple and have huge effect on my game.
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Good guide,many new players have zero concept of this.
They produce the right units and have good control but wonder why they still loose. Lack of Timing is why they loose.
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Excellent post, worth the bump too... I really need to work on this and game sense.
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On December 14 2008 11:43 GiTM.Dante wrote:
As for the last post, I believe you really improve your understanding of it, which I don't think you even have to game to do. There are other factors, like scouting, etc, which will tell you how/when to take advantage of this window, but a good understanding of what it is, I believe, is more important than mass gaming and not knowing what it is. In my experience, I've seen a lot of players who have got better explain that it's really just your mindset and that's totally true. StarCraft requires a lot of understanding, and opening your mind to this will help you improve greatly.
I completely agree with this.
I just have been watching VODS for the past few months and haven't been gaming nearly much at all. I never was any good. I had decent micro until my mouse crapped out.
Recently played a few games and tried strategies that were somewhat risky but would help me out in the later game. It was a 2v2, my partners would always go " FE!?!? you'll kill us all!" Because of the advantage I had gained early on, I could pump much more units with better upgrades, and scare the other players out of the game. Of course this was low level play, but it can still hold true. The wins seem a little more satisfying, and my confidence is better because of it.
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I think a guide similar to this should also be made for game sense, since it is another skill that is hard to define, and yet still very important to have.
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good bump... can u put this in recommended thread list?
or.. is it already there? 0.o
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United States17042 Posts
On December 16 2008 02:28 BlasiuS wrote:
I think a guide similar to this should also be made for game sense, since it is another skill that is hard to define, and yet still very important to have.
game sense goes hand in hand with scouting, which imo you need a ton of mechanics for. if you watch the reps after you lose, and understand what you did wrong, your gamesense will be better.
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On December 16 2008 03:55 GHOSTCLAW wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2008 02:28 BlasiuS wrote:
I think a guide similar to this should also be made for game sense, since it is another skill that is hard to define, and yet still very important to have. game sense goes hand in hand with scouting, which imo you need a ton of mechanics for. if you watch the reps after you lose, and understand what you did wrong, your gamesense will be better.
This is precisely why I think someone should make a guide, since there is obviously more to it than a vague answer such as "if you watch the reps after you lose, and understand what you did wrong, your gamesense will be better."
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Calgary25977 Posts
Gamesense is a synonym for intuition. You can't teach intuition.
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I have a bit of a vague question that I don't feel merits a new thread:
I'm a zerg player and I'm practicing "timing" on some of the more all-in rush oriented builds like 9 pool speedlings, 2 hatch 1 base lurker, 2 hatch muta. I was using a stopwatch to practice the zerg build, and then doing the same thing with terran or protoss in an attempt to see what sort of tech they could possibly have to stop it.
I got 4 lurkers out in the 2 hatch build at 5:30~ or so and 6 mutas around 7~
I managed to get terran to have about a control group of marines from 2 rax at about 45~ supply with stim half way done on the lurker build and I had mnm with stim and range and turrets up by 7 mins as well.
For toss I managed to get obs out with time to spare from 1 base, and I had the observatory building at the time lurkers would be arriving when I FE'd (built a stargate and a corsair also). For muta defense I had plenty of time to get anything I wanted whether it was 5~ sairs or 3 cannons at both bases or an archon or whatever.
I had never actually tried to time the techs out like this. I'm sure this is fairly obvious to any of you good players, but I'm just C-/D+ and I was wondering exactly how the theory behind these "timing" attacks is supposed to work. Is it a rock/paper/scissors sort of game? I manage to get these attacks to work on iccup when I can prevent scouting, but I never got the precise timing of how easily these attacks can be stopped if you know they are coming. I suppose I'm wondering if I'm just slow and these should work more often or if at higher levels these all-in type maneuvers just never work anymore.
I never really see Korean players lose to a specific timing build that often unless the attacker hides the buildings like a proxy or they make a huge mistake with micro. Is it worth the time to learn how to execute these offensive builds, or should I acknowledge that safer play should be the route 99% of the time and just look for openings in their defenses to exploit?
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On December 16 2008 06:26 Chill wrote:
Gamesense is a synonym for intuition. You can't teach intuition.
Eh I disagree. I don't know whether you meant "you can't teach intuition" because it had to be learned through experience and not through words on a paper, but I definitely believe that intuition can be learned. Think about external applications to intuition - poker players "learn" it all the time. The only problem is that it requires a good amount of time spent doing whatever you are trying to learn. I think Starcraft "gamesense" is the same and can be learned by watching how pros react to situations and actually getting out there and experiencing the game yourself.
A person who has ~1000 games under his belt is usually going to have better intuition than a guy with ~300 games even if their skill levels (macro/micro) and build order knowledge are similar.
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Thanks for bumping this.
This is a very good read.
It's the SC sense.
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After I read this thread my TvP is no longer a train wreck, I forgot about the Terran's midgame timing push and now that I use it I'm soaring through D level. I use to macro up to 200/200 but then he'd have arbiters and 200 aarmy too. Thank you Chill!
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Can u pm me some timing details for protoss? I understand zerg and terran but I need some examples for Protoss. Thanks
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Legendary bump
decent though never read it before !!
TIMING!
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On February 26 2009 15:54 xxbluejay21 wrote:
Can u pm me some timing details for protoss? I understand zerg and terran but I need some examples for Protoss. Thanks
This bump was unnecessary I think.
Nobody has a book on exact timings.
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On February 27 2009 07:19 Centric wrote:Show nested quote +On February 26 2009 15:54 xxbluejay21 wrote:
Can u pm me some timing details for protoss? I understand zerg and terran but I need some examples for Protoss. Thanks This bump was unnecessary I think. Nobody has a book on exact timings.
I'm sure there are specific timings for PvT when applied to specific builds.
bump was good imo, I never read this and it was very good.
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Nice write up.
thx
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nice guide chill, btw when u going to be playing more stream games? i learn a lot from those, looking forward to it
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After having hopped back on iCCup after almost a year of inactivity, I found this thread and felt it would be a useful read especially for new players trying out BW or coming from SC2. After playing a fair amount of games in the D rank I've realized that this is one of the major things that separates a mediocre player from a decent one.
A bad player has no mechanics, and can't follow build orders.
A mediocre player can execute his chosen builds at least somewhat competently, assuming he doesn't get thrown off his game plan too badly by some form of harass or unexpected counterbuild.
A decent player may not necessarily have the cleanest build orders and play, but he knows how to maximize the effect of his decisions, and I think that is really what timing is about.
A good Terran might have 14 tanks and 26 vultures when he pushes out, and a bad one 10 tanks and 20 vultures, but the key isn't what the Terran has when he moves out, it's what *the Protoss* (assuming TvP) has that determines if it's a good time to move out.
In a sense, it's a way of saying "if you're going to do something, do it right". This is most obvious (to me) in the PvT matchup, because it is not nearly as volatile as the PvZ matchup where quick tech switches are an option (for the Zerg), and there tends to be a lull in a buildup period in which you *decide* when and where to attack, rather than necessarily being forced to react a certain way due to scouting a certain tech tree.
A lot of the D/D+ players, at least those that are capable of following and executing build orders, are still stuck in those ranks and will be there because of a lack of timing. They decide to move out in TvP at the "11:00 minute mark", or when they "reach 120 supply" or "have 12 tanks massed". The problem is, of course, if the time they move out isn't taking particular advantage of anything that I, the Protoss opponent, am doing. Move out when the Protoss is weak, and there could be several windows of opportunity - it's not a specific time.
Basically, Chill's OP is excellent and a worthwhile read and refresher to anyone playing RTS.
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Just found this thread, and I gotta say this is SO FREAKING HELPFUL. Thank you.
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EPT
