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29 fps
United States5725 Posts
In a recent game pro match, the zerg took out the terran's ebay, 1-2 barracks, tons of turrets, some scvs, and marines/medics. He pushed the Terran back to the main. He even took out the first valkyrie, I believe. And then somehow the Terran pushes back and the zerg loses. So what I wanna know is, how do you know whether you've done enough when harassing with mutas? | ||
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Abjurer
Sweden212 Posts
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mtcn77
Turkey688 Posts
May I remind you that is how terran loses when mutalisks and zerglings make a two pronged attack? You will be let off from the marine pressure. You just have to keep making infested terrans to keep the pressure high. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8065 Posts
On September 12 2024 10:17 29 fps wrote: How can players (or viewers) tell whether their muta harass is effective or not? Sometimes I see zerg players destroying so many units and buildings for several minutes, only to still lose to a one base Terran later on. In a recent game pro match, the zerg took out the terran's ebay, 1-2 barracks, tons of turrets, some scvs, and marines/medics. He pushed the Terran back to the main. He even took out the first valkyrie, I believe. And then somehow the Terran pushes back and the zerg loses. So what I wanna know is, how do you know whether you've done enough when harassing with mutas? Zerg rely on larvas, which completely change the equation compared to other races. Whenever you make a military unit as zerg, you are not making a drone. If Terran is losing a ton of units but slowly manages to tech up, there will be a point where zerg is hopelessly behind if all they have done is pump mutas. On the current metagame, mutas are designed to keep terran in their base while you take a third, inflict economic damage by taking some scvs out and force expensive turrets and reduce marine count while zerg takes a third and techs towards lurker and defiler that alone will allow him to beat a teched-up terran push. So the games you talk about are all ins from the zerg players. You can see that your harassment is very successful, ditch the traditional plan and just keep making mutas to end the game right there. But you are committed, and if Terran survives, you are dead. Because a 2 tank + vessel + mm is basically unstoppable if you don’t have the corresponding tech, namely lurkers and defilers. I hope this answers that. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8065 Posts
On September 17 2024 01:47 mtcn77 wrote: Can anybody explain what is there to stop the zerg from infesting Terran's natural expansion CC? 1 Queen and 1 Queen's nest is just 300 minerals and 200 Vespene gas. It is not very expensive. The Queen makes the mutalisk stack became artillery since upon 750 damage Terran loses a CC and you gain a building in the Terran base. Let me remind you zerg units are really low hp and suddenly you overturn that with the infested CC, they have to concentrate fire on a 1500hp building if left unchecked will make Infested terrans that can take out multiple SCVs in an instant. May I remind you that is how terran loses when mutalisks and zerglings make a two pronged attack? You will be let off from the marine pressure. You just have to keep making infested terrans to keep the pressure high. Because at that point of the game, your mad will be absolutely murdered before you can inflict 750 damage to that cc, and that repairing a cc is extrelely quick and easy. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey688 Posts
On September 17 2024 06:54 Biff The Understudy wrote: Because at that point of the game, your mad will be absolutely murdered before you can inflict 750 damage to that cc, and that repairing a cc is extrelely quick and easy. I have seen games recently that terran just sits on ~600hp CC. Of course, it will pull aggro away from the mutalisks if Terran focuses on the repair because marines cannot maneuver near the CC. If you have watched it, they are quite pathetic around the CC. You get a huge advantage if you can force the marines near the CC. I am just saying 300 minerals & 200 gas is just a drop in the bucket. I have never seen 9 mutalisks doing more than what 6 mutalisks haven't done already. Notice, July started the current 6 mutalisk rush meta. When he started the 6 muta rush, terrans didn't know what hit them - same as how Jaedong revolutionized ZvP. I just wish there was a logical follow up to that plan because let us face it: zerg meta revolves around map control. Mutalisks and queens are the fastest units in the game. They can be anywhere so long as you point them. Even the 2nd game of the group E between JD vs Light, it came down to mutalisks being where they were supposed to be. PS: all I wanted to say is there hasn't been any change to meta like July has done it. | ||
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Expensive-Law-9830
130 Posts
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mtcn77
Turkey688 Posts
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FlaShFTW
United States10367 Posts
On September 17 2024 20:36 mtcn77 wrote: I think that is how you buy time: by dealing damage. I'm not suggesting any less, in fact more. How long can 6 mutalisks bring a CC down to half hp? I calculate precisely 17.5 seconds. That assumes nothing shooting back at it lol. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey688 Posts
On September 18 2024 00:50 FlaShFTW wrote: That assumes nothing shooting back at it lol. Mutalisks are disposable. On the contrary, infesting a CC is not. That is what I want to extrapolate. What happened to playing zerg with grit, holding nothing back, rushing without any recourse? Hero making the last zerglings versus JyJ? Imagine a rush with 6 mutas and 1 queen. It would be as glorious as Jaedong dispatching the first corsair. PS: OK, I see what you mean. It takes 6 marines %75 the time to dispatch 6 mutalisks even without concentrating fire. PS 2: Oh, I've found the perfect analogy. How many games have involved the zerg destroying 4 missile turrets? That is the time needed for the CC rush. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8065 Posts
If your mutas can shoot at the cc while surviving turret and stimmed marines you have already won the game. Mutas are meant to poke, kill an scv, a turret or a few marines and run back because they get obliterated if they take a static engagement. 17,5 seconds ignoring stuff shooting back at them is 12 more seconds than it takes a group of marines to kill a control group of mutas. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey688 Posts
On September 18 2024 06:33 Biff The Understudy wrote: Your mutas will die in second if they stand still. I don’t know what you are getting at. If your mutas can shoot at the cc while surviving turret and stimmed marines you have already won the game. Mutas are meant to poke, kill an scv, a turret or a few marines and run back because they get obliterated if they take a static engagement. 17,5 seconds ignoring stuff shooting back at them is 12 more seconds than it takes a group of marines to kill a control group of mutas. 6marines shoot back 6 mutalisks in 13.23 seconds, or 12m 12 muta. Even stim packed marines shoot back in 6.615 seconds. You quoted 5.5. That is between 6 marines 5 mutalisks. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10367 Posts
On September 18 2024 02:55 mtcn77 wrote: Mutalisks are disposable. On the contrary, infesting a CC is not. That is what I want to extrapolate. What happened to playing zerg with grit, holding nothing back, rushing without any recourse? Hero making the last zerglings versus JyJ? Imagine a rush with 6 mutas and 1 queen. It would be as glorious as Jaedong dispatching the first corsair. PS: OK, I see what you mean. It takes 6 marines %75 the time to dispatch 6 mutalisks even without concentrating fire. PS 2: Oh, I've found the perfect analogy. How many games have involved the zerg destroying 4 missile turrets? That is the time needed for the CC rush. Depending on the stage of the game lol. Mutas are not necessarily just disposable until you at minimum get a lot of damage with them or your lurkers have finished. Also in this hypothetical CC rush, the Terran has totally lost control of their fingers and cannot order SCVs to repair the CC, for turrets to shoot and kill mutas, and for marines to reinforce and also deal with mutas. This is not consistent with reality. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26616 Posts
On September 18 2024 02:55 mtcn77 wrote: Mutalisks are disposable. On the contrary, infesting a CC is not. That is what I want to extrapolate. What happened to playing zerg with grit, holding nothing back, rushing without any recourse? Hero making the last zerglings versus JyJ? Imagine a rush with 6 mutas and 1 queen. It would be as glorious as Jaedong dispatching the first corsair. PS: OK, I see what you mean. It takes 6 marines %75 the time to dispatch 6 mutalisks even without concentrating fire. PS 2: Oh, I've found the perfect analogy. How many games have involved the zerg destroying 4 missile turrets? That is the time needed for the CC rush. Find some half decent players, streamline your build for this infest timing attack idea and let us know how you get on testing it out | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8065 Posts
You will notice the mutas avoid staying still. The biggest target they usually attack are turrets. They are extremely fragile. Keep also in mind that by the time you get queen, terran will have ample defenses. | ||
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iopq
United States1077 Posts
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Ideas
United States8168 Posts
On September 17 2024 06:50 Biff The Understudy wrote: Zerg rely on larvas, which completely change the equation compared to other races. Whenever you make a military unit as zerg, you are not making a drone. If Terran is losing a ton of units but slowly manages to tech up, there will be a point where zerg is hopelessly behind if all they have done is pump mutas. On the current metagame, mutas are designed to keep terran in their base while you take a third, inflict economic damage by taking some scvs out and force expensive turrets and reduce marine count while zerg takes a third and techs towards lurker and defiler that alone will allow him to beat a teched-up terran push. So the games you talk about are all ins from the zerg players. You can see that your harassment is very successful, ditch the traditional plan and just keep making mutas to end the game right there. But you are committed, and if Terran survives, you are dead. Because a 2 tank + vessel + mm is basically unstoppable if you don’t have the corresponding tech, namely lurkers and defilers. I hope this answers that. This is a great answer. Just keep in mind that mutas do not scale well at all into the late game once Terran has good upgrades and vessels out. The longer the game goes on, the less affective they will be. It's why I think the most vulnerable window for Zerg is that timing push Terrans will make right before defilers are out and zerg only has static D and mutas to rely on for defense. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey688 Posts
On September 19 2024 00:08 FlaShFTW wrote: Depending on the stage of the game lol. Mutas are not necessarily just disposable until you at minimum get a lot of damage with them or your lurkers have finished. Also in this hypothetical CC rush, the Terran has totally lost control of their fingers and cannot order SCVs to repair the CC, for turrets to shoot and kill mutas, and for marines to reinforce and also deal with mutas. This is not consistent with reality. I think you underestimate the reasoning. Considering the zerg game plan in three sections; 1. The early game when you don't have the economy, 2. The midgame when you have the economy, but not the hatcheries and larvae, 3. Lastly, the end game when you have both the economy and the larvae to make everything, mutalisks fit the midgame very well. Any good zerg pro avoids zergling rushes these days. If you make zerglings, you will be underproducing from your hatcheries in the early game and midgame when you don't have sufficient hatcheries. Mutalisks are quite efficient if you could avoid making zerglings altogether. I get that at early game, none of these units are game winningly decisive. You can make zerglings work at late game not just because you have defilers and ultralisks to cover them, but also because "you have the hatcheries" to make them. More hatcheries without pushback from the Terran is pretty much instant win condition which should be discussed in my opinion and not taken for granted just like how you don't take my idea for granted. It is evident zerg will have more minerals than larvae at early game when it is feasible to throw down another hatchery; however with present hatcheries in place and equal mineral:larvae flow you should get more out of mutalisks than zerglings that offer no map control past static defences. Mutalisks can choose to avoid incoming fire and spice things up. I'm just looking to find new ways for that. We already have late "midgame strategies" such as guardian rushes that fall flat spectacularly. I just think there are not the only midgame strategies that develop into late game. It is just a question of economy. | ||
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FlaShFTW
United States10367 Posts
On September 20 2024 23:13 mtcn77 wrote: I think you underestimate the reasoning. Considering the zerg game plan in three sections; 1. The early game when you don't have the economy, 2. The midgame when you have the economy, but not the hatcheries and larvae, 3. Lastly, the end game when you have both the economy and the larvae to make everything, mutalisks fit the midgame very well. Any good zerg pro avoids zergling rushes these days. If you make zerglings, you will be underproducing from your hatcheries in the early game and midgame when you don't have sufficient hatcheries. Mutalisks are quite efficient if you could avoid making zerglings altogether. I get that at early game, none of these units are game winningly decisive. You can make zerglings work at late game not just because you have defilers and ultralisks to cover them, but also because "you have the hatcheries" to make them. More hatcheries without pushback from the Terran is pretty much instant win condition which should be discussed in my opinion and not taken for granted just like how you don't take my idea for granted. It is evident zerg will have more minerals than larvae at early game when it is feasible to throw down another hatchery; however with present hatcheries in place and equal mineral:larvae flow you should get more out of mutalisks than zerglings that offer no map control past static defences. Mutalisks can choose to avoid incoming fire and spice things up. I'm just looking to find new ways for that. We already have late "midgame strategies" such as guardian rushes that fall flat spectacularly. I just think there are not the only midgame strategies that develop into late game. It is just a question of economy. I'm not sure how anything you've just said is relevant at all to my comment. Also, Guardian hydra builds are real builds and do not fall flat spectacularly. I'm not sure what level of games you watch or play at but there's a reason no one in this thread thinks any of your ideas are worth their merit. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8065 Posts
Mtcn, here is a game where a Guardian build almost takes out Flash. Also please watch that game and find a moment where 6 mutas could have spent 15 seconds hitting at a CC without getting wiped out. It wouldn’t be 15 seconds since the scvs would repair but nevermind. It seems to me that you are theorizing without all that much knowledge of the matchup and the meta. That’s fine, but you can trust someone like FlashFTW who really, really knows his stuff when he tells you something doesn’t make sense. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey688 Posts
On September 21 2024 03:57 Biff The Understudy wrote: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=8iD9Dn9d1rY Mtcn, here is a game where a Guardian build almost takes out Flash. Also please watch that game and find a moment where 6 mutas could have spent 15 seconds hitting at a CC without getting wiped out. It wouldn’t be 15 seconds since the scvs would repair but nevermind. It seems to me that you are theorizing without all that much knowledge of the matchup and the meta. That’s fine, but you can trust someone like FlashFTW who really, really knows his stuff when he tells you something doesn’t make sense. I am trying to find the game. In case that is the zelot vs flash, I watched it if that is what you mean. Again, I won't mention things until they have happened. That is still a game falling flat on its face. In case you haven't noticed, I'm a big time JD fan and he doesn't talk big. You wouldn't find another person who roots more for guardian play, it is just not there yet. I'm trying to point out why. I'm okay you discussing your points, just don't be unreasonably dismissive. Mutalisks have been played at the highest levels with success and I'm not discussing the meta. I'm just pointing out what makes it so successful when it happens to. You might be stuck on the 6 muta rush - all I'm saying is anything is better than early game zerglings and mutalisks are the alternative unless you want to gg with hydralisks against ZvT. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8065 Posts
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Gooseheaded
United States126 Posts
On September 20 2024 23:13 mtcn77 wrote: Mutalisks can choose to avoid incoming fire and spice things up. On May 19 2005 23:13 Anakin Skywalker said: Is it possible to learn this power? You are clearly overestimating the freedom Mutas have in the matchup. One does not simply choose to avoid incoming fire. Avoiding incoming fire is a huge part of the Muta micro learning curve. It takes months (if not years) of deliberate practice to learn to navigate around Terran's defenses with your Mutas. Even as a player who averages ~180 APM on a good day, my APM easily goes up to 300 when I'm flying around a Terran's base looking for a weak spot to harass. The time-to-kill in this matchup is incredibly short. The Mutas must keep moving for them to have a chance of being effective; any downtime where the Mutas are idle is often exploited by a group of Marines. The 750 damage you're asking for is already a pretty large ask. In a normal game, dealing 750 damage would be roughly equivalent to killing, for example: 5 SCVs, 4 Marines, and 2 Turrets. That is an pretty darn good amount of damage! If I reliably do that in a game without losing my Mutas, I consider myself firmly in control of the game. In fact, that's an extra-challenging practical goal right there: "deal at least 750 damage with your Muta harass". Most importantly, in a normal game, there are 2 key points that your proposal fails at completely: 1) the "minimum required damage" for every Muta strike is short and limited (40hp and 60hp). Significant damage be dealt in single maneuvers that only take a second or two each, which is important because Mutas don't have a fast attack speed; 2) the "payoff" of dealing that damage collected incrementally. Zergs can "cash in" victories in small increments, because every Marine or SCV you kill is a win. Medics do not have time to heal, and SCVs have very little time to react and repair. As such, there is a range of successes that can be had (1 kill, 2 kills... 10 kills). To emphasize, you're asking to engage in a manner where: 1) the minimum required damage is seven hundred and fifty. Even if you had twelve fully upgraded Mutas, doing this would require 5 full attacks to achieve. Nothing is achieved in the first attack. Nothing is achieved in a second attack. Nothing is achieved in a third attack. Nothing is achieved in the fourth attack. Victory is *finally* achieved on the fifth attack. And all throughout, SCVs can be repairing. 2) the payoff is entirely binary. You either *infest* the command center, or you don't. Conversely, your Queen lives, or it dies. It wouldn't matter how many Mutas are alive at the end. Please produce a replay where your strategy works at a similar in-game time. For your information, Muta harassment usually takes place around 6:00 or 7:00. You can find willing practice partners of all skill levels at https://cplbw.com . | ||
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QRCode
United States36 Posts
On September 17 2024 01:47 mtcn77 wrote: Can anybody explain what is there to stop the zerg from infesting Terran's natural expansion CC? 1 Queen and 1 Queen's nest is just 300 minerals and 200 Vespene gas. It is not very expensive. The Queen makes the mutalisk stack became artillery since upon 750 damage Terran loses a CC and you gain a building in the Terran base. Let me remind you zerg units are really low hp and suddenly you overturn that with the infested CC, they have to concentrate fire on a 1500hp building if left unchecked will make Infested terrans that can take out multiple SCVs in an instant. May I remind you that is how terran loses when mutalisks and zerglings make a two pronged attack? You will be let off from the marine pressure. You just have to keep making infested terrans to keep the pressure high. Just want to bump this and say I saw Zero do this the other day vs Flash! Flash left his CC unrepaired and Zero snuck in with a queen. Love it when pros take advantage of small moments like this. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey688 Posts
On December 28 2024 23:35 QRCode wrote: Just want to bump this and say I saw Zero do this the other day vs Flash! Flash left his CC unrepaired and Zero snuck in with a queen. Love it when pros take advantage of small moments like this. Omg, where! I'm searching this and putting Queen back on the watch list just in case he did! Out of context, one thing I have noticed about Flash - he always attacks the undefended zerg natural with MM bio if zerg tries any air tactic against his main. Doesn't matter mutas, doesn't matter guardians. | ||
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QRCode
United States36 Posts
On January 01 2025 06:44 mtcn77 wrote: Omg, where! I'm searching this and putting Queen back on the watch list just in case he did! Out of context, one thing I have noticed about Flash - he always attacks the undefended zerg natural with MM bio if zerg tries any air tactic against his main. Doesn't matter mutas, doesn't matter guardians. Hey sorry for the late reply! It was actually a proleague game you can watch here (timestamped). However upon rewatch, I totally misremembered what happened, and it didn't quite go the way you described it. It was not after a muta harass and it happened to his third. Still, it was a good play that cut into Flash's lead, and I think it's good to keep thinking about new and creative ways to push the meta. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8065 Posts
It’s extreeeeeemely situational. It’s not at all a build or a strat or anything meta. There are some builds these days that involve queens for ensnare, against wraith strats or before transitioning to guardian. Of course if you are steamrolling the Terran base in one of those situations there is no reason not to infest if the occasion presents itself, but of course in that situation you have obviously won already. | ||
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mtcn77
Turkey688 Posts
On January 06 2025 04:47 QRCode wrote: Hey sorry for the late reply! It was actually a proleague game you can watch here (timestamped). However upon rewatch, I totally misremembered what happened, and it didn't quite go the way you described it. It was not after a muta harass and it happened to his third. Still, it was a good play that cut into Flash's lead, and I think it's good to keep thinking about new and creative ways to push the meta. Sir did you watch today's artosiscast? I thought you covered that since it could be uploaded later than the korean cast. It was a hit, too. I read someone called Saiyan recommended it to Artosis for stream. Gosh, I have to expand my starcraft correspondence. I don't know any of these new casters. here | ||
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QRCode
United States36 Posts
On January 07 2025 11:57 mtcn77 wrote: Sir did you watch today's artosiscast? I thought you covered that since it could be uploaded later than the korean cast. It was a hit, too. I read someone called Saiyan recommended it to Artosis for stream. Gosh, I have to expand my starcraft correspondence. I don't know any of these new casters. here Nope, I didn't! Thanks for sharing! I wonder when this was played. Queen seems to be on a mission to incorporate the queen whenever he can, and he's been playing phenomenally lately. | ||
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