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Calgary26003 Posts
On October 12 2007 05:03 nortydog wrote:The fast rush style is a completely forgotten art in tvz, its a real shame  About as year ago I developed a tvz build which I guess is similar to this but dare I say probably better, when executed right it succeeds around 97-100% vs 3 hatch(works just as well against 2 hatch but its more or less untested as hardly anyone 2 hatches).. this is from my own experience over about 80 games total, if they go muta its basically autowin(no I wasn't playing noobs). As I havn't played sc in 7 months but might come back at some point(not likely but I hope) Im tossing up whether or not to share it, if there is enough interest I might no promises though, maybe it can be my legacy in the sc world to fuck up tvz balance forever, who knows..
Oh wow. Really. So you developed a build that works >97% against the most standard Zerg build. Forgive me for being skeptical.
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I had learned a fast rush tvz around the time when PGT was still up. I had went 18-1 in tvz's because of the build, but i also think the map in particular can also foil the build. The build goes something like this:
9 Depot
11 rax, stop scvs until you can make another rax, after you can start making scvs again
Depot before first rax is done
Marine from first rax, if timing correct the 2nd rax should be done as soon as first rine is out
make 2 more rines, start refinery and academy right after
keep pumping marines until you have 7 (i really dont remember the build, but there are many variations you should try and experiment with it) and
The key here is to stop making scvs after the second depot so that the rush will be much faster. if scouted however, it will be much harder to win since they will sunk up, but majority of the time you may be able to break the sunk line or run by it. If there are 2 sunks and a few lings, you should be able to get in by killing lings and then running in. Im not here to brag but I've taken down many high rank gamers and timing is really the key here. I can try to find replays of it, but i also have not played sc for a very long time.
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Canada9720 Posts
LOL YOU LOST 2 INTRIGUE WAT A NOOB
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Calgary26003 Posts
Me? No, I fucking raped him but it was still a good build.
Edit: I can't get over this. You think you have a build so good that it will destroy the foundations of TvZ balance? PLEASE post it, because I know it's going to be some sort of 2 rax fast Tank build or something. Seriously, post them shits. You can't make a claim like that and then back down.
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Norway28895 Posts
nortydog no build order wins 97-100% of the time if you're not playing noobs lol
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On October 12 2007 05:03 nortydog wrote:The fast rush style is a completely forgotten art in tvz, its a real shame About as year ago I developed a tvz build which I guess is similar to this but dare I say probably better, when executed right it succeeds around 97-100% vs 3 hatch(works just as well against 2 hatch but its more or less untested as hardly anyone 2 hatches).. this is from my own experience over about 80 games total, if they go muta its basically autowin(no I wasn't playing noobs). As I havn't played sc in 7 months but might come back at some point(not likely but I hope) Im tossing up whether or not to share it, if there is enough interest I might no promises though, maybe it can be my legacy in the sc world to fuck up tvz balance forever, who knows..
I doubt it.
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Honestly, i just copy the build order from the VOD that i posted.
If a korean made it, its good.
I think the problem with 20 or 22 ebay is that you sacrifice a 3rd depot for that ebay, which stops marine production as well as scv production. Late acad is fine cause then they will think you are FEIng anyways.
This build is disadvantageous vs lurk build, but rather strong vs a muta build, esp if they do not scout.
I think teching while breaking the sunk is the best thing to do, cause if he goes lurk ur initial army is gonna be stalled by a lot. Tanks would help a lot here.
and to keep in mind, he kept his firebats in the back of his army cause a smart zerg that knows something fishy is coming up will have a stray group of lings to flank you.
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I believe a slight proxy of 2nd and/or 3rd rax would make it even better, so zerg thinks you're going standard 1 or 2 rax FE and then boom GG.
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I just want to say that you should NEVER 8 depot under any circumstances.
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On October 12 2007 01:31 Cascade wrote:Nice, I like this build (use it when I dodged a ZvZ and went terran instead.  ) but I feel that i really do not know how to do it, so this guide is very welcome.  A few things that I would like in the OP, of which some has already been answered/mentioned: 1) When must the ebay and academy go down to get +1 and stim+range uppgrades ready just before lair kicks in? the build in the OP wants both down almost simultaneously at around 20 (if i understood correctly), im blind wants ebay at like 23-24 (?) and academy quite a lot later. 2) holding scv/rine production. Im always freaking out over this one when I try to do the build... I guess I need to hold scvs to get up gas,ebay and academy asap, but should I hold rines as well? How many more scvs should i build after both upgrade buildings are done? 3) Third rax. when is that supposed to go down? Should i hold scvs to make it go up faster? 4) How many medics/bats do I want? I imagine it depends on what the zerg does, but im sure you could give some guidelines. 5) How to micro the attack? I've always sent my medics in first to take the first hits, to make sure they can reach the target rines in the front line and to block incoming lings. Sync however sent his rines in first.  6) Replays with the build!! Helps a lot for me. I'd love the guide if you could answer some of those questions! I realise that many of those depends on style and/or what the zerg does, but then explain your style, and tell us what we should look for in the zergs play. Hope you're not taking offence, I'm just trying to help you extend the guide by telling you what newbs (me) need to know.
Thanks, this will help me add more info in. I'll try to answer the questions here:
Once the terran force has moved out, continue on production in both CC and barracks as normal. But before that, I guess the main thing I would have to recommend is to balance out scv production, marine production, and having enough minerals for the specific buildings. The only time where I on occasion encounter a problem where I have to halt production is around academy/third barracks; and like I said, it's all based on the situation. If the third barracks needs to go down..it needs to go down so halt production, etc.
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The third barracks will end up being built in the mid-20's...as I said in the original post, I tend to build the 3rd rax after the academy. Cutting scv's or not is a question dependent on how well the build was executed. But what I will say, is that once there are enough minerals, build it. On the most part, cutting scv production for a few seconds will be harmless at this level.
The order is in general, gas -> eng bay -> academy -> third barracks
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Depends on the sunkens. Similar to what imBLIND said, upgrade armor and attack based on scouting information, and to be honest, zergs who go muta tech and low sunkens will be demolished through attack upgrade. When I move out, I have at the least 16-18 marines/bats, and though I don't like specific ratios (it's all dependent on what's happening) 4-8 medics should suffice.
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There is a good reason why Sync sends in the rines first: sometimes, what I do is right-click the rines into the creep. This kills three rines, but I end up having the full effect of stim. For other micro, um...send in the bats to the sunkens and position the medics so that both bats and rines are healed. Also, spread the rines somewhat so that lings (if there are some) coming in will not be able to surround a huge glob of rines, and last, position the bats/medics between the gaps in the sunkens (if there are gaps) so that lings which are popping out have to go around where the rines can pick them off.
This is great, thanks for the questions, it should add quite a bit more to this.
More please! 
-Wizard
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I'm still waiting for the groundbreaking TvZ imba build from nortydog.
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Microing a sunk break requires 1m2m3m (m being move)
this allows all of your marines to attack at the same time. Leave some bats behind you so if any BS lings come by, you wont have that much of a problem with them.
Keep ur medics in the middle of the marines, but not in front cause stimmed stuff are faster than the meds >.>
The ebay must go down before academy because +1 weps takes about the same time for the range and stim to finish. If u watch that vod i posted, its the 101 on sunk breaking.
Unit ratios should be somewhere around 18 marines, 3 bats and 6 meds. Meds are in reality really dumb and heal the marines that are not being attacked. This results in a auto 6 marine death even before u take 1 sunk down. If u break the line, you will have somewhere around 10 marines and a couple bats left. You could make a med wall at the choke if u wanted to stop rienforcements.
And this is just a FYI thing: the 3rd rax is not meant to speed up the intial process of building your first army; it is meant so that your rienforcements can finish the job. If the zerg went muta, hes as good as dead. If he went lurk, then get tanks asap.
Man this used to be my favorite build ever cause i couldnt macro for shit and it was a nice easy way to get rid of better zergs. Then i realized how hard it was to bounce back eco wise from using this build and staying equal tech wise.
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nortydog already showed me it awhile ago. It's just a variation of the 3 rax. He just adds one more rax to it making it the infamous 4 rax build with +1 armor. The one he showed me was of him owning a zerg with it on gaia. I honestly think it's sexy build but i dunno about the 97% winning ratio part ;o
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4 rax = too slow and by then mutas would have already come out
Gets owned really bad by 3hatch lurks.
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On October 12 2007 05:55 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On October 12 2007 05:03 nortydog wrote:The fast rush style is a completely forgotten art in tvz, its a real shame About as year ago I developed a tvz build which I guess is similar to this but dare I say probably better, when executed right it succeeds around 97-100% vs 3 hatch(works just as well against 2 hatch but its more or less untested as hardly anyone 2 hatches).. this is from my own experience over about 80 games total, if they go muta its basically autowin(no I wasn't playing noobs). As I havn't played sc in 7 months but might come back at some point(not likely but I hope) Im tossing up whether or not to share it, if there is enough interest I might no promises though, maybe it can be my legacy in the sc world to fuck up tvz balance forever, who knows.. Oh wow. Really. So you developed a build that works >97% against the most standard Zerg build. Forgive me for being skeptical.
Skepticism is good, I don't appreciate the sarcasm though
On October 12 2007 06:16 Liquid`Drone wrote:
nortydog no build order wins 97-100% of the time if you're not playing noobs lol
we'll to be honest some of them were probly noobs but then how do you know when the game only lasts 7 minutes lol
On October 12 2007 12:57 MaRiNe23 wrote:
nortydog already showed me it awhile ago. It's just a variation of the 3 rax. He just adds one more rax to it making it the infamous 4 rax build with +1 armor. The one he showed me was of him owning a zerg with it on gaia. I honestly think it's sexy build but i dunno about the 97% winning ratio part ;o
hey who are you? I only remember showing that replay to one person but don't remember who, PM me.
On October 12 2007 13:05 imBLIND wrote:
4 rax = too slow and by then mutas would have already come out
Gets owned really bad by 3hatch lurks.
the attack comes about the same time thier mutas hatch and a bit before lurkers
Everyone else please get back on topic, apologies to Wizard for hijacking the thread, I'll start my own soon.
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i come across a serious funds shortage right around the gas then engineering/academy. do you cut scv/rines?
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I dont play terran anymore, I used to be C- Terran. Im a C protoss, now.
+ Show Spoiler +I think everyone should state their Pgt/Iccup/Wgt rank before giving tips in Strategy forum. A lot of newbs (like me) are often wrong, or illogical. People tend to think that because a non-optimal build worked once, it is deadly, and dont seek to improve it. i.e: www.confederation.ath.cx and read their strat forums. Only stupid ideas, like "go 7 ol, make 9 pool, 3 sunken... I never lost using this build!!!1one its ubber gosu." This is not only to know our level of expertee, or in-depth knowledge of the game, but mostly to know what kind of players we face on a daily basis.
I recall using 3 racks almost every tvz game. But what started to bug me, is that often the zerg would have lair tech by the time my attack hit, even when 3 hatching.
Of course i tried to synchronize my attack with the +1 upgrade, as I consider it to be the trump card of the 3 racks build. I mean, you want to have the mnm force ready to attack when the +1 is complete, not start moving out, that would be too late.
So in my last days i was modifying the build to:
Racks
Gas
Ebay
Racks (not sure if the second racks came before academy. Optimally ud have +1 armor, stim, range, all done about the same time)
Academy
Racks
I dont remember the supply counts.
But the idea was to have the armor upgrade earlier.
The second major point i found is that it worked much better if u deceived the zerg. I used to not bring units from the 2nd 3rd barracks to the ramp, unless i saw ling rushing. This way zerg would see few marines and guess 1 rack tech or FE, then be surprised by mass marine rush.
Finally it works better in maps where marines have an easy time besting the sunkens. Maps like Rush Hour are often easy to walk them over. Mapswith narrow entrance, i find the factory rush more effective.
In maps like rush hour i noticed that zergs have a tendency to make more lings, in the average game, rather than sunkens. If you spot that, the solution is simple. Make firebats, and dont forget to block the ramp cuz they love to run in those maps with double paths (Rush Hour, R-Pnt, etc)
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The Z will definitely have lair by the time T is ready to move out, It's just hard for Z to counter it because either the T was good at hiding his intentions by fake FE or hiding units or either poor decision making/micro from the Z when the T is rolling out. I'm not sure if lurks will be out yet, but nonetheless, they require some micro to avoid getting owned by mnm and if they die, it's gg prettty much. As for mutas, they are more delicate and hopefully the T falls back to deal with mutas or if they are turret'd up then constant micro to pick off reinforcements and/or stray units.
If there are any good recent VODs showing this, that would be nice
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Hmm. Did Sea use a variation of a 3 rax build vs Kwanro in Group H?
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EPT
