3 rax bo in TvZ (or Fireworks/Flaming Terran) Wizard
Thanks for all the input. I have changed this guide to make it shorter, reason being, the information from the different posters in this thread was great and explained a lot of the information I had wanted to convey but in a much fuller manner.
Introduction to the guide:
The three barracks build order is an interesting and fun strategy against zerg. Interesting in that it can be manipulated in ways to make it all-in or to transition into a standard game, and fun, because – well, it’s fun.
This strategy was popularized by progamer Sync, who received the nickname "Sparks Terran"
Here is a highlight video of him using the 3 rax build:
Basics:
The 3 rax opening is centered around attacking the zerg with a timing based attack before the lair tech.
Build order:
The bo is simple.
9 depot 11 barracks 13 barracks 14 depot
From here:
18 gas 21 depot
Once this depot is complete, begin the academy.
Then, being another depot. Once it is complete, being the engineering.
The third rax should be added when there are enough minerals.
First, when the academy is complete, upgrade stim and than range (add scanner to CC). For the eng bay, there are two options of course: armour or attack. In general, if there are a lot of sunkens (based on scouting information) and lings, get armor +1, otherwise, cash into attack.
That is the build order in a nut shell.
Flow:
The three rax bo rests upon the concept of attacking the zerg with a timing based attack before the lair tech. When should I move out? I move out when I have the right number of units, and of course, dependent on the zergs progress in tech. I don’t follow specific medic/marine ratios: it depends on whether the upgrade was into armour or attack, and on how confident I am with the micro. Often times, I have as little as 4 medics, sometimes as much as 8. However, a point to make is that I move out with at least one and a half to two control groups of rines and bats (I follow the control grouping of medics into 1, and marines/bats into 2, 3, etc.).
Containing him: here the need for micro comes into action. Position the bats and the medics in the right manner, and make sure to not sacrifice units to micro mistakes. This is the most difficult aspect of the 3 rax build, whether or not the sunkens will break.
Find holes in the zerg's game. Sunkens positioned in an incorrect manner, sneak through holes and kill his drones from the other side, rush through the ramp/choke and into his main. Once again, micro: focus fire on sunkens, if drones come to attack (or to make new sunkens), shift-select and kill them.
how is this different from ye olde 2 rax opening? the gas and academy timing look the same.
are you timing this against a 3 hatch build? It looks like that zerg will be at lair at least as fast as you can get your 3rd rax up if they go 2 hatch, meaning you aren't getting that much out of it? What precisely does have that 3rd rax do? give you like 4-5 more marines?
The third barracks usually just provides the extra units to break the Zerg's sunken lines. 4-5 more Firebats and/or Medics can make all the difference.
+1 atk is better when their sunk count is 4 or less. +1 armor is better when there are 6+ sunkens.
This is a very generalized BO of this that i watched from the fpvod of sync on youtube.
9 depot 11 rax 13 rax 14 depot 17 gas 21 depot ~when depot is done, start ebay -- when ebay done start +1 atk ~depot ~when depot is done, build acad -- research stim first then range ~depot ~barracks
**constant production of marines **watch the supply **give a false impression that you are doing a normal 2rax acad build (so he doesnt put tha tmany sunks up)
here the youtube vod
The amazing part of this BO sync does is that it fits perfectly with the timing. Usually, you will catch him before his lair tech kicks in, aka the lurks or the mutas.
Then ur best bet would be to tech while breaking the sunks, esp if he went lurk tech. Ideally, you wanna at least get his expo hatch. Get tanks, finish the job a minute later.
This isn't contributory to the thread, but every single time I see those Sync videos I am constantly amazed by how he shreds the sunken lines like they're not even there.
This build is highly underrated. Everyone should give it a try, in casual games at least. Breaking Sunken lines is an art - you'll either storm through them like they're not even there, or you'll end up losing everything and killing nothing.
Intrigue did this to me on Longinus, combined with fake expansion, and I was 100% fooled. It was an epic build.
As Zerg, how would you counter this? I mean, if the T is decent and hides most of rines/meds/bats from view it would be hard to know if he's teching or just massing and timing his attack. By this time you are already on lair and dedicated to mutas or lurks and again, if he's good he will scan and know when to move out.
Only thing I can think of is to sacrifice a lord to try to see what he's doing or mass sunken and maybe burrow =p.
EDIT: Like Chill said, if he fakes FE, that's even harder to read GAH
9 depot 11 rax build up minerals til about 14-15, and then you will have enough to get gas and 2nd rax same time. Leave only a single scv on gas Time engineering bay so as that lone scv gets to 100 gas ebay is built or close to built. Then cut gas production.Upgrade weaps.
Constant rine/ scv production the whole time. Money build up and add 3rd rax and acad.
As acad starts put 3 scv back on gas. Then you just keep up with MMF from 3 rax and as the upgrade finishes you will have like a group and a half-2 groups of units, and ~400 minerals.
You can also use that 14 gas 14 2nd rax to do the tank push.
standard (defensive) zerg play vs 2rax is 3 sunks. zerg must have an over or one ling (overlooking terans choke) to see when and with what the teran moves out (preferable ovie). if you see more than 2 firebats or more than a dozen m&m you add 2-3 (it actually depends on how much lings the zerg has at that time) more sunks and pump lings.
the distance between the bases will be somewhat of an issue but by the time teran moves out the zerg should be fully droned and on pumping lings anyway. of course, the zerg has the "pull the mining drones" options which should be used only as a last resort because you'll loose a good part of them, then loose the game 3-4 min later.
if he fakes FE you have only one sunk, delay as much as you can his marines, add 2 more sunks, pump lings, pull drones and hope for a miracle
i see this bo working against 3 hatch mostly (only) because if the zerg goes 2 hatch fast tech by the time teran moves out the zerg lurks should be morphing.
Nice, I like this build (use it when I dodged a ZvZ and went terran instead. ) but I feel that i really do not know how to do it, so this guide is very welcome.
A few things that I would like in the OP, of which some has already been answered/mentioned:
1) When must the ebay and academy go down to get +1 and stim+range uppgrades ready just before lair kicks in? the build in the OP wants both down almost simultaneously at around 20 (if i understood correctly), im blind wants ebay at like 23-24 (?) and academy quite a lot later.
2) holding scv/rine production. Im always freaking out over this one when I try to do the build... I guess I need to hold scvs to get up gas,ebay and academy asap, but should I hold rines as well? How many more scvs should i build after both upgrade buildings are done?
3) Third rax. when is that supposed to go down? Should i hold scvs to make it go up faster?
4) How many medics/bats do I want? I imagine it depends on what the zerg does, but im sure you could give some guidelines.
5) How to micro the attack? I've always sent my medics in first to take the first hits, to make sure they can reach the target rines in the front line and to block incoming lings. Sync however sent his rines in first.
6) Replays with the build!! Helps a lot for me.
I'd love the guide if you could answer some of those questions! I realise that many of those depends on style and/or what the zerg does, but then explain your style, and tell us what we should look for in the zergs play.
Hope you're not taking offence, I'm just trying to help you extend the guide by telling you what newbs (me) need to know.
The fast rush style is a completely forgotten art in tvz, its a real shame
About as year ago I developed a tvz build which I guess is similar to this but dare I say probably better, when executed right it succeeds around 97-100% vs 3 hatch(works just as well against 2 hatch but its more or less untested as hardly anyone 2 hatches).. this is from my own experience over about 80 games total, if they go muta its basically autowin(no I wasn't playing noobs).
As I havn't played sc in 7 months but might come back at some point(not likely but I hope) Im tossing up whether or not to share it, if there is enough interest I might no promises though, maybe it can be my legacy in the sc world to fuck up tvz balance forever, who knows..
Some zergs make more sunk then they need. and works perfect vs that 3 rak rush. Hell if i see more then 12 marins i make 6-7-8 sunks :D And i use this in my tvz when i play t and some zerg have many sunks to
On October 12 2007 05:03 nortydog wrote: The fast rush style is a completely forgotten art in tvz, its a real shame
About as year ago I developed a tvz build which I guess is similar to this but dare I say probably better, when executed right it succeeds around 97-100% vs 3 hatch(works just as well against 2 hatch but its more or less untested as hardly anyone 2 hatches).. this is from my own experience over about 80 games total, if they go muta its basically autowin(no I wasn't playing noobs).
As I havn't played sc in 7 months but might come back at some point(not likely but I hope) Im tossing up whether or not to share it, if there is enough interest I might no promises though, maybe it can be my legacy in the sc world to fuck up tvz balance forever, who knows..
Oh wow. Really. So you developed a build that works >97% against the most standard Zerg build. Forgive me for being skeptical.
I had learned a fast rush tvz around the time when PGT was still up. I had went 18-1 in tvz's because of the build, but i also think the map in particular can also foil the build. The build goes something like this: 9 Depot 11 rax, stop scvs until you can make another rax, after you can start making scvs again Depot before first rax is done Marine from first rax, if timing correct the 2nd rax should be done as soon as first rine is out make 2 more rines, start refinery and academy right after keep pumping marines until you have 7 (i really dont remember the build, but there are many variations you should try and experiment with it) and The key here is to stop making scvs after the second depot so that the rush will be much faster. if scouted however, it will be much harder to win since they will sunk up, but majority of the time you may be able to break the sunk line or run by it. If there are 2 sunks and a few lings, you should be able to get in by killing lings and then running in. Im not here to brag but I've taken down many high rank gamers and timing is really the key here. I can try to find replays of it, but i also have not played sc for a very long time.
Me? No, I fucking raped him but it was still a good build.
Edit: I can't get over this. You think you have a build so good that it will destroy the foundations of TvZ balance? PLEASE post it, because I know it's going to be some sort of 2 rax fast Tank build or something. Seriously, post them shits. You can't make a claim like that and then back down.
On October 12 2007 05:03 nortydog wrote: The fast rush style is a completely forgotten art in tvz, its a real shame
About as year ago I developed a tvz build which I guess is similar to this but dare I say probably better, when executed right it succeeds around 97-100% vs 3 hatch(works just as well against 2 hatch but its more or less untested as hardly anyone 2 hatches).. this is from my own experience over about 80 games total, if they go muta its basically autowin(no I wasn't playing noobs).
As I havn't played sc in 7 months but might come back at some point(not likely but I hope) Im tossing up whether or not to share it, if there is enough interest I might no promises though, maybe it can be my legacy in the sc world to fuck up tvz balance forever, who knows..
Honestly, i just copy the build order from the VOD that i posted. If a korean made it, its good. I think the problem with 20 or 22 ebay is that you sacrifice a 3rd depot for that ebay, which stops marine production as well as scv production. Late acad is fine cause then they will think you are FEIng anyways. This build is disadvantageous vs lurk build, but rather strong vs a muta build, esp if they do not scout. I think teching while breaking the sunk is the best thing to do, cause if he goes lurk ur initial army is gonna be stalled by a lot. Tanks would help a lot here. and to keep in mind, he kept his firebats in the back of his army cause a smart zerg that knows something fishy is coming up will have a stray group of lings to flank you.
On October 12 2007 01:31 Cascade wrote: Nice, I like this build (use it when I dodged a ZvZ and went terran instead. ) but I feel that i really do not know how to do it, so this guide is very welcome.
A few things that I would like in the OP, of which some has already been answered/mentioned:
1) When must the ebay and academy go down to get +1 and stim+range uppgrades ready just before lair kicks in? the build in the OP wants both down almost simultaneously at around 20 (if i understood correctly), im blind wants ebay at like 23-24 (?) and academy quite a lot later.
2) holding scv/rine production. Im always freaking out over this one when I try to do the build... I guess I need to hold scvs to get up gas,ebay and academy asap, but should I hold rines as well? How many more scvs should i build after both upgrade buildings are done?
3) Third rax. when is that supposed to go down? Should i hold scvs to make it go up faster?
4) How many medics/bats do I want? I imagine it depends on what the zerg does, but im sure you could give some guidelines.
5) How to micro the attack? I've always sent my medics in first to take the first hits, to make sure they can reach the target rines in the front line and to block incoming lings. Sync however sent his rines in first.
6) Replays with the build!! Helps a lot for me.
I'd love the guide if you could answer some of those questions! I realise that many of those depends on style and/or what the zerg does, but then explain your style, and tell us what we should look for in the zergs play.
Hope you're not taking offence, I'm just trying to help you extend the guide by telling you what newbs (me) need to know.
Thanks, this will help me add more info in. I'll try to answer the questions here:
Once the terran force has moved out, continue on production in both CC and barracks as normal. But before that, I guess the main thing I would have to recommend is to balance out scv production, marine production, and having enough minerals for the specific buildings. The only time where I on occasion encounter a problem where I have to halt production is around academy/third barracks; and like I said, it's all based on the situation. If the third barracks needs to go down..it needs to go down so halt production, etc. __________
The third barracks will end up being built in the mid-20's...as I said in the original post, I tend to build the 3rd rax after the academy. Cutting scv's or not is a question dependent on how well the build was executed. But what I will say, is that once there are enough minerals, build it. On the most part, cutting scv production for a few seconds will be harmless at this level.
The order is in general, gas -> eng bay -> academy -> third barracks __________
Depends on the sunkens. Similar to what imBLIND said, upgrade armor and attack based on scouting information, and to be honest, zergs who go muta tech and low sunkens will be demolished through attack upgrade. When I move out, I have at the least 16-18 marines/bats, and though I don't like specific ratios (it's all dependent on what's happening) 4-8 medics should suffice. __________
There is a good reason why Sync sends in the rines first: sometimes, what I do is right-click the rines into the creep. This kills three rines, but I end up having the full effect of stim. For other micro, um...send in the bats to the sunkens and position the medics so that both bats and rines are healed. Also, spread the rines somewhat so that lings (if there are some) coming in will not be able to surround a huge glob of rines, and last, position the bats/medics between the gaps in the sunkens (if there are gaps) so that lings which are popping out have to go around where the rines can pick them off.
This is great, thanks for the questions, it should add quite a bit more to this.
Microing a sunk break requires 1m2m3m (m being move) this allows all of your marines to attack at the same time. Leave some bats behind you so if any BS lings come by, you wont have that much of a problem with them. Keep ur medics in the middle of the marines, but not in front cause stimmed stuff are faster than the meds >.>
The ebay must go down before academy because +1 weps takes about the same time for the range and stim to finish. If u watch that vod i posted, its the 101 on sunk breaking.
Unit ratios should be somewhere around 18 marines, 3 bats and 6 meds. Meds are in reality really dumb and heal the marines that are not being attacked. This results in a auto 6 marine death even before u take 1 sunk down. If u break the line, you will have somewhere around 10 marines and a couple bats left. You could make a med wall at the choke if u wanted to stop rienforcements.
And this is just a FYI thing: the 3rd rax is not meant to speed up the intial process of building your first army; it is meant so that your rienforcements can finish the job. If the zerg went muta, hes as good as dead. If he went lurk, then get tanks asap.
Man this used to be my favorite build ever cause i couldnt macro for shit and it was a nice easy way to get rid of better zergs. Then i realized how hard it was to bounce back eco wise from using this build and staying equal tech wise.
nortydog already showed me it awhile ago. It's just a variation of the 3 rax. He just adds one more rax to it making it the infamous 4 rax build with +1 armor. The one he showed me was of him owning a zerg with it on gaia. I honestly think it's sexy build but i dunno about the 97% winning ratio part ;o
On October 12 2007 05:03 nortydog wrote: The fast rush style is a completely forgotten art in tvz, its a real shame
About as year ago I developed a tvz build which I guess is similar to this but dare I say probably better, when executed right it succeeds around 97-100% vs 3 hatch(works just as well against 2 hatch but its more or less untested as hardly anyone 2 hatches).. this is from my own experience over about 80 games total, if they go muta its basically autowin(no I wasn't playing noobs).
As I havn't played sc in 7 months but might come back at some point(not likely but I hope) Im tossing up whether or not to share it, if there is enough interest I might no promises though, maybe it can be my legacy in the sc world to fuck up tvz balance forever, who knows..
Oh wow. Really. So you developed a build that works >97% against the most standard Zerg build. Forgive me for being skeptical.
Skepticism is good, I don't appreciate the sarcasm though
On October 12 2007 06:16 Liquid`Drone wrote: nortydog no build order wins 97-100% of the time if you're not playing noobs lol
we'll to be honest some of them were probly noobs but then how do you know when the game only lasts 7 minutes lol
On October 12 2007 12:57 MaRiNe23 wrote: nortydog already showed me it awhile ago. It's just a variation of the 3 rax. He just adds one more rax to it making it the infamous 4 rax build with +1 armor. The one he showed me was of him owning a zerg with it on gaia. I honestly think it's sexy build but i dunno about the 97% winning ratio part ;o
hey who are you? I only remember showing that replay to one person but don't remember who, PM me.
On October 12 2007 13:05 imBLIND wrote: 4 rax = too slow and by then mutas would have already come out Gets owned really bad by 3hatch lurks.
the attack comes about the same time thier mutas hatch and a bit before lurkers
Everyone else please get back on topic, apologies to Wizard for hijacking the thread, I'll start my own soon.
I dont play terran anymore, I used to be C- Terran. Im a C protoss, now. + Show Spoiler +
I think everyone should state their Pgt/Iccup/Wgt rank before giving tips in Strategy forum. A lot of newbs (like me) are often wrong, or illogical. People tend to think that because a non-optimal build worked once, it is deadly, and dont seek to improve it. i.e: www.confederation.ath.cx and read their strat forums. Only stupid ideas, like "go 7 ol, make 9 pool, 3 sunken... I never lost using this build!!!1one its ubber gosu."
This is not only to know our level of expertee, or in-depth knowledge of the game, but mostly to know what kind of players we face on a daily basis.
I recall using 3 racks almost every tvz game. But what started to bug me, is that often the zerg would have lair tech by the time my attack hit, even when 3 hatching. Of course i tried to synchronize my attack with the +1 upgrade, as I consider it to be the trump card of the 3 racks build. I mean, you want to have the mnm force ready to attack when the +1 is complete, not start moving out, that would be too late.
So in my last days i was modifying the build to: Racks Gas Ebay Racks (not sure if the second racks came before academy. Optimally ud have +1 armor, stim, range, all done about the same time) Academy Racks
I dont remember the supply counts. But the idea was to have the armor upgrade earlier. The second major point i found is that it worked much better if u deceived the zerg. I used to not bring units from the 2nd 3rd barracks to the ramp, unless i saw ling rushing. This way zerg would see few marines and guess 1 rack tech or FE, then be surprised by mass marine rush.
Finally it works better in maps where marines have an easy time besting the sunkens. Maps like Rush Hour are often easy to walk them over. Mapswith narrow entrance, i find the factory rush more effective. In maps like rush hour i noticed that zergs have a tendency to make more lings, in the average game, rather than sunkens. If you spot that, the solution is simple. Make firebats, and dont forget to block the ramp cuz they love to run in those maps with double paths (Rush Hour, R-Pnt, etc)
The Z will definitely have lair by the time T is ready to move out, It's just hard for Z to counter it because either the T was good at hiding his intentions by fake FE or hiding units or either poor decision making/micro from the Z when the T is rolling out. I'm not sure if lurks will be out yet, but nonetheless, they require some micro to avoid getting owned by mnm and if they die, it's gg prettty much. As for mutas, they are more delicate and hopefully the T falls back to deal with mutas or if they are turret'd up then constant micro to pick off reinforcements and/or stray units.
If there are any good recent VODs showing this, that would be nice
Well, depends. Against two hatch lurkers, this build is weak (as in not working most of the time)...against three hatch lurkers, this build becomes difficult, and against two or three hatch mutas it's quite good.
When the terran moves out, look at his force. Then, sunken up. 4 sunkens are ez to break with a 3 rax build, so 6 or more might have to be put down. Pump lings as well. The thing is, while it's messing the zerg's eco up, if the terran fails his push, it's not good at all: in the case of mutas, the zerg can go harass, and the terran will have a couple of rines/medic to guard them of -> send in lings, gg...If the zerg goes lurkers, it becomes even easier as his tech timing is not that good, and now it's hard for him to defend.
SHINHAN 2005 OSL FINAL GAME 1 ILOVEOOV VS JULY @ CULTIVATION PERIOD
iloveoov cuts scv production and goes for a 3 barracks firebat heavy power rush that just rolls over July.
WCG 2006 KOREA MIDAS VS CHOJJA @ AZALEA
Midas cuts scv production and goes for a 3 barracks firebat heavy power rush that just rolls over ChOJJa.
SHINHAN OSL 3 CASY VS JULY
CaSy goes 3 barracks and totally fakes out July with a fake fast expand. July's sunkens come way too late and CaSy's units melt through his base.
Cutting SCV production in my opinion might be a valuable key to this build cause it makes it so much faster. Hiding the 3rd barracks and constant unit production is KEY. When you have 6-8 marines, try to show only 3. Try to have an SCV waiting at the natural to make it look like a fake 2 barracks FE build.
I love the 3 barracks power build in TvZ, I can't do FE builds for crap against TvZ. =[
Well, I think this build only becomes efficient when you cut scv production around ~24 (depends on timing, if hes 2 hatching, cut earlier for an all-in or cut later if you wanna make it less of an allin build) it's a cheesy buildorder, but its definately not an easywin, you need to know the adaptability of the buildorder, how it forks, what you want from it (all-in or earlygame phase that can transition into a normal game, but I wouldnt advise that last part against the now standard 3hatch, since your economy is a lot weaker). you need to get this timing down. And all this by thorough practice. What the OP listed as a build order definately has flaws against a 3hatch zerg, thats by for not the optimal build order. But the most important thing to now is that there is no (THERE IS NO SPOON) optimal build order you can iterate game after game, you need to adapt, just like with every other build.
Not to mention that you by any means can't let him know that you're 3raxing. A 3hatch zerg can afford a shitload of sunkens against a low econ 3rax terran and they will put them up without doubt if they notice your plan. And they won't be afraid of making 1/2 too many. This does not mean you gotta be all Casy about it and do remote mining, but not showing your entire force when you move out (not even to that second scouting ling alot of zergs tend to send around your army when they see you coming out).
On October 15 2007 22:49 suxN wrote: Why not take some scv:s with the rush? It seems like an all-in push anyway
its better to be able to make some reinforcements later on. it can always happen that you break down his sunkline and kill a shitload of drones before your forces get decimated by new lings or muta or lurk. It's a more or less all-in build, but that does not mean you dont have to be able to secure that advantage if it's only an advantage you're getting out of it
I've been playing this build a lot lately now, and while I'm winning almost every game vs 3 hatch lurk, I feel helpless vs muta openings. How is it supposed to be easy?
Against lurk builds, my attack always gets there as his lurk eggs are starting/finishing depending on map distance. But against muta, they always seem to have a ctrl group plus a group of lings just hovering over the sunkens. How do you react to this? Just expand and use those units to defend? Cause I've found no way to break them down with mutas just sitting there.
Well the 3rax is built around beating the 3 hat mutas because of the abundance of available rines and medics. From your game, the Z is only hurting himself if he's just leaving his mutas at home waiting for you. That's what you want because he's not harassing you, not that he can because you hopefully have turrets and your 3rax mnm support. You are free to have map control and expo once you get that force up. Just make sure he doesnt have a hidden expo somewhere and it's just a matter of time before your ground is just too big w/ upgrades etc. that he can't do anything.
On October 18 2007 03:24 atmablade wrote: Well the 3rax is built around beating the 3 hat mutas because of the abundance of available rines and medics.
No it isn't.
From your game, the Z is only hurting himself if he's just leaving his mutas at home waiting for you. That's what you want because he's not harassing you, not that he can because you hopefully have turrets and your 3rax mnm support.
True, but what Zerg is going to do this?
You are free to have map control and expo once you get that force up. Just make sure he doesnt have a hidden expo somewhere and it's just a matter of time before your ground is just too big w/ upgrades etc. that he can't do anything.
If you're 3 Raxing to get map control, you need to reanalyze your reasoning.
Well obviously if you are 3raxing before FE you are likely playing aggressive and seeking a quick break or a timing mass push with it. Maybe it came out wrong, but because you have 3 rax, it is a good counter to mutas as opposed to lurks which eat mnm. You knew what I meant, no need to break balls here.
True, but what Zerg is going to do this?
I dont know, the one the guy described. What kind of question is that?
If you're 3 Raxing to get map control, you need to reanalyze your reasoning.
3 rax, like aforementioned is an aggressive play for the most part. I never said it was intended to gain map control.. the sitation arose however, that map control was in his favor because the Zerg decided to stay at home. There is no reasoning to rethink because it's situational and in his particular situation, map control was his and if he probably decided to attack, he would've lost that inclusive of the game most likely.
lol I never knew the build was used in progaming, and i never see it used in Iccup, yay, to think my standard Tvz build is used by a progamer , it works pretty good vs D zergs
Well obviously if you are 3raxing before FE you are likely playing aggressive and seeking a quick break or a timing mass push with it. Maybe it came out wrong, but because you have 3 rax, it is a good counter to mutas as opposed to lurks which eat mnm. You knew what I meant, no need to break balls here.
If you're 3 Raxing to get map control, you need to reanalyze your reasoning.
3 rax, like aforementioned is an aggressive play for the most part. I never said it was intended to gain map control.. the sitation arose however, that map control was in his favor because the Zerg decided to stay at home. There is no reasoning to rethink because it's situational and in his particular situation, map control was his and if he probably decided to attack, he would've lost that inclusive of the game most likely.
you're absolutely wrong. He has superior eco and will own you eventually if you dont do something.
What are you talking about Rage? Just from the other thread about 3 hat and maynard gives me an indication of what you know. Zerg is sitting on main and nat while you have the rest of the map. If you read anything that I posted earlier instead of trying to be right (which you aren't) you can expo safely and just tech up and out mass while Z is trying to muster enough forces to break out.
Are you basically saying to attack while Z has lings, mutas, and sunks and you have like 1-2 groups of mnm? Ok, you do that.
Thanks atmablade, it makes sense now. I lost all my games vs muta opening because I thought like Rage and assumed I would be behind if I didn't go through with it. But now I realize that I have more than enough mins to expo at the time I move out. And with ~25~ SCV accumulated in my main it can get to 2 base fully saturated right away.
I summarized it and compressed it a lot, as it now reads in the introduction. The reason being is that when writing it...all the ideas and information became summarized and cramped. With the great replies, there is no need for this, as the reader can look throughout the thread, and find all the answers.
Try this 4 rax build instead... 25-3 on iccup 9 dep 10 rax 12 rax 14 dep rines and scvs till 26/26 ---> you should have 8 rines, gogo! 8 rines own any lings out there(micro?) unless he has speed, then stay. If not he has to sunk --> even later tech! 26 academy 26 gas 26 refinary save minerals 2 rax! Get scan as first thing after aca! Get your medics as early as possible(more energy, yes?), but don't put them near choke... Best if he thinks 2rax fe:D Add depots while pumping rines till u got 2 bats 5 meds and rest rines hitting 50/50 You have to cut scvs a bit but not that much, worth the insane amount of firepower! When you leave base, send 1 group out first(750 pixels ahead..)... don't let him see 2 groups! Up stim 20 sec before go As you go for rape, get engi bay asap and go cc. He may have seen u go out with lots of rines with overlord - tt - but if not, he should have no more than 4 sunks <<<< you. If 6 sunks < still you, with good micro 7 sunks >> no go! If zerg went 2 hatch lurk, he has lurks just when u arrive... but u can micro? If 3 hatch muta they will pop ~15-20 sec after almost all sunks are gone <<< you.
Lastly, this is ofc all about timing... if you execute it correctly I'm sure you will achieve great succes with this strat, and it rapes cheese(muhaha); a zerg teching with 3 hatches + 1 sunk, and pumping drones like a mad man --> that is fuvking cheese, ppl are just accustomed to it nowadays!:D
The last tips you may need have been stated by all of you, now go rape please, zerg must die! GGL
hm....i was thinking about this for a bit, and i'm questioning about something
would it be a good idea to build 3rd rax outside, but near main blind spot(for example, build in 12's min only in LT) and land it in blind spot? so Z would think you're only going 2rax, and you attack nat and main at the same time. Obviously, this would only work if Z didn't scout properly, but would it be more successful than not?
On October 18 2007 13:49 goldenkrnboi wrote: hm....i was thinking about this for a bit, and i'm questioning about something
would it be a good idea to build 3rd rax outside, but near main blind spot(for example, build in 12's min only in LT) and land it in blind spot? so Z would think you're only going 2rax, and you attack nat and main at the same time. Obviously, this would only work if Z didn't scout properly, but would it be more successful than not?
I think it's always a good idea to be deceptive. There's no reason to go as far as hiding it in the min-only, just rally two Barracks to your choke and keep one unrallied, so your Marine count is hidden.
atmablade if you as the terran go 3 rax and then zerg goes 3 hatch muta, and he ends up building enough sunkens to defend, you are far behind. it's not a counter to 3 hatch muta, it's not a counter to anything other than any zerg who does not see it coming. that's what it's a counter to. whether zerg opens with muta or lurker doesn't necessarily have to mean anything. the difference is that sometimes, people who open lurker will skimp on sunkens hoping they can get lurkers in time to defend, and this sometimes gives you a window of opportunity. if he opens muta, what happens is that he builds like 16 mutalisks while you're forced to split up your troops, while he's able to beat down any reinforcements you want to send, harass expansion attempts etc, all just while massing enough units to kill your "containment" with few losses. (and if your 30-ish m&m are killed with relatively few losses for him, you're dead. if he has enough sunkens to defend when your attack first comes, you're also usually dead barring him making a mistake. )
in fact if he's going lurker, you're sometimes / often better off because you don't need to seperate your units and you can expand earlier, and him getting his third expansion doesn't happen as fast. but if he opens 3 hatch muta, what happens is you get a prolonged period of 2 gas zerg against 1 base terran, and while you're very capable of defending against harass as well as getting huge numbers of m&m, they're not able to do as much as you'd ideally want them to be able to do. they can't walk places cause mutas rape any small unit group, they can't both contain him and expand and defend main cause mutas rape any small unit group, you can't really do anything other than hope he's going to fuck up his micro when he finally goes for your containment force.
this build depends far more on how zerg plays than how terran plays; if zerg counters it perfectly, they always win. (tricks like casy's fast exp can make every single zerg counter it imperfectly though. but not very often. :p )
Of course you are going to be behind, that goes without saying and I never said you were ahead in any way. What I simply stated is that, if you choose to attack Z's front with sunks + mutas + lings then you are only going to lose. THUS, you have to somehow get back in the game, so you have to depend on massing up, defending any harass, and getting that expo up to try to catch up eco wise. But yes, you have to depend on Z making micro mistakes, not harassing well, getting expo killed, etc. for you to fully get on even ground. And if Z counters well, he will win because he is already ahead.
It's really not that big of an issue. He was asking how to proceed if the Z decides to 3 hat muta and stays in base waiting for your force to come and sending that force is not the way to win (which some people said you have to attack to catch up, which is just plain wrong), simple. How you go from there, like both of us said, depending on Z making errors and T capitalizing on them.
On October 19 2007 05:18 n3m0 wrote: kinda "all-in" tactic no?
like 3 gate p?
No, not at all. 3 Gate isn't all-in either. It's simply aggressive play, and if it doesn't work you will be behind. The same can be said about any other build in this game.
On October 18 2007 13:49 goldenkrnboi wrote: hm....i was thinking about this for a bit, and i'm questioning about something
would it be a good idea to build 3rd rax outside, but near main blind spot(for example, build in 12's min only in LT) and land it in blind spot? so Z would think you're only going 2rax, and you attack nat and main at the same time. Obviously, this would only work if Z didn't scout properly, but would it be more successful than not?
I think it's always a good idea to be deceptive. There's no reason to go as far as hiding it in the min-only, just rally two Barracks to your choke and keep one unrallied, so your Marine count is hidden.
that's not what i meant.
i meant like, building it in the min-only in LT, but landing and training marines inside main. my question isn't whether or not it's a good idea, but whether it's more successful than not.
On October 18 2007 13:49 goldenkrnboi wrote: hm....i was thinking about this for a bit, and i'm questioning about something
would it be a good idea to build 3rd rax outside, but near main blind spot(for example, build in 12's min only in LT) and land it in blind spot? so Z would think you're only going 2rax, and you attack nat and main at the same time. Obviously, this would only work if Z didn't scout properly, but would it be more successful than not?
I think it's always a good idea to be deceptive. There's no reason to go as far as hiding it in the min-only, just rally two Barracks to your choke and keep one unrallied, so your Marine count is hidden.
that's not what i meant.
i meant like, building it in the min-only in LT, but landing and training marines inside main. my question isn't whether or not it's a good idea, but whether it's more successful than not.
BoxeR uses the dropship exquisitely, and YellOw assaults his opponents like a storm.
Sync, aka Qoo)BlazE, viciously forces through the Zerg defensive line with units made from the barracks.
Seoul, January 7th, 2005. The fourth week in the 16-round of the IOPS Starleague. The crowd was stunned as Sync tore through the sunken colony line with only a small number of bionic forces. Though he lost the game in the end, Sync's style would once again be engraved into the minds of the people.
How is it that Sync's bionic units, in comparison with other progamers, break through the sunken colony line so easily? After the match, the interviewers asked him, "How is it that you break through the sunken colonies so well? Is there a secret to it?" He answered plainly, "I just do it."
Where does that strength come from, to be able to tear through the sunken colonies so ruthlessly? I investigated this mystery by analyzing the replay of the game.
Six minutes after the game started, Sync approached the opponent's entrance with 12 marines, 4 medics, and 4 firebats, as he sent an SCV to verify the number of sunken colonies and defensive units. There were 4 sunken colonies, 2 additional sunken colonies being made, and 4 zerglings.
At this point, most Terrans would retreat. The two sunken colonies would soon be completed, and the Zerg could supply zerglings from the three hatcheries at any time. Sync, however, checked the condition of the opponent by using the scan, and plunged into the sunken colonies, ripping through the six. It was horrific.
That was all I could gather from watching the replay. What, then, is the thing that makes others call him the "Spark Terran," and what is the driving force behind it? I decided to set up an experiment.
After selecting Protoss for myself and the computer as my opponent, I used the cheats to upgrade the dark archon and mind-control a drone and an SCV. I then made a sunken colony, a marine and a medic. I also researched the stim pack and upgraded the range for the marine.
After using the stim pack, I sent one marine with a medic to attack the sunken colony. With an attack of 6, the marine damaged the sunken colony each time it fired by 4 HP, because the colony has a basic defense of 2. That would mean that the marine would need to fire roughly 75 times to destroy a sunken colony. After testing it, it was about 78 to 80 times, because of the Zerg's healing ability. On average, the marine cut about 140 to 150 HP of the sunken colony.
What about the firebat? It's commonly known that a firebat is fairly useless in attacking a building structure. The firebat's attack is 16, but against any structure it only does 25% damage. After using the stim pack, the firebat with the medic was able to fire about 25 to 26 times. The HP of the sunken colony was reduced by about 112 to 120. The results were completely opposite to the common belief that firebats are ineffective against buildings. The conclusion is that when a firebat supports a marine, sunken colonies will break quickly.
The answer finally surfaced after watching the replay again. Sync's two firebats persistently attacked the sunken colonies as the marines stood behind the firebats, attacking the sunken colonies separately. After the marines used the stim pack one more time, four sunken colonies began to break up in sequence, starting from the center.
Sync, the "Spark Terran" - the driving force is his firebats.
There is a trick I picked up from Elky a while ago to ensure a Fast tank push on sunken line or 3rax break sunken line work better. Elky use this on his TV matches too, it's very simple really, all he does is have scv make a gas on zerg base, and that actually buy him about 10 - 20 or so seconds before lurker or mutas come out. Merely 10 seconds would help alot in a timed 3 rax build.
My variation of this build has an engineering bay before acad, and semi-aggressive scouting with my first six or so marines to feint a FE.
For lower-skilled zergs (like D level or so?), the natural inclination is to expand a few times while attempting mutalisk harass. Zergs at this level seem to think they're safe when doing so.
What I do is move out slightly faster than most 3rax builds would. Sometimes I break the sunkens and win outright, other times I attack and then fall back if it looks like I'm doomed. As soon as I move out I start a CC, and while I'm walking to the Zerg's base I put up the turret matrix. If my sunken break fails, I can seemingly rely on a relatively poor player to expand immediately and attempt the inevitable Mutalisk harass.
After I send my sunken break attempt group out, I rally my barracks inside my own base. I have +1 attack before I get to the zerg's nat. If I fail to break the sunkens, the Zerg always seems to futily fly around my base running from turrets and the 10-12 +1 marines that are hanging around.
I've always had a strong enough group of marines to at least make an attempt on an expansion, and if I catch the zerg overestimating his safety and powering drones too much, I take it down and pull ahead. From there I've already set the precedent that I'm in charge of the game flow, and unless my macro and scouting are mad shitty I can lock the Zerg down with aggressive Marine attacks until I can finish it with tanks and so forth.
EPT
) but I feel that i really do not know how to do it, so this guide is very welcome. 
