EPT! [Q] Getting a Queen every game? - Page 6
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thunk
United States6233 Posts
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Warrior Madness
Canada3791 Posts
I play the computer now and then to try and master Savior's build (with my monstrous 50 APM) and I always incorporate a queen in my unit mix (Except after Hive tech and not in lair). I'm just wondering how well say a unit mix of 1-lurkers 2-hydras 3- lings/defilers 4-lings-Queens/scourges would do? So in a skirmish the terran would pick off the lurkers, defilers and hydras with his vessels but the Hydras would protect them or he'd have to exchange a few sci vessels for them (they'd be plagued or 1 or 2 would die), you'd use your queens like he uses his vessels and you'd ensare as many of his marines before going in with his lurkers/hydras/lings. You could also use the Queens to scout his flanks and tanks in an open map. But would the marines be slowed down enough for you to considerably win in that exchange? I know I'm probably missing a few things (i.e. the terran would probably just micro 1 or 2 vessels to irradiate your big chunk of hydras-but then again that leaves a few lurks alive, or you could research burrow- or he'd just irradiate all queens on sight- but then a good player might use his queens like vessels and keep them behind a line of hydras/scourges in the group) but I'm just wondering if any of you have tried/mastered this kind of queen usage, or, if you have any replays containing queen usages in general. I also wonder how you'd deal with the mine/tank counter? That's why I keep 1-2 ctrl groups of lings in the group but I'm just wondering how they would fare against 6-8 well spread out tanks in an open map like Python, not to mention against a human being :D. | ||
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Orome
Switzerland11984 Posts
It's a good thing you're trying to think of new strategies in this old game, but I suggest you play a few ZvT against a human opponent before going too deep into theory. You should realize pretty quickly why a unit mix of lings/hydras/lurkers/defilers/queens/scourges isn't viable. (Hint: Handspeed is limited.^^) Mixing in queens with your hydra/lurk or ling/lurk army can be very effective on the other hand, you could look through some old games of Chojja, he used to use Queens now and then. | ||
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MidnightGladius
China1214 Posts
Unfortunately, my friend's not too great with vessel control, but it seemed feasible, at least when the vessel count is relatively low. | ||
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Warrior Madness
Canada3791 Posts
It's a good thing you're trying to think of new strategies in this old game, but I suggest you play a few ZvT against a human opponent before going too deep into theory. You should realize pretty quickly why a unit mix of lings/hydras/lurkers/defilers/queens/scourges isn't viable. (Hint: Handspeed is limited.^^) Yes I agree, I'm getting a bit ahead of myself here but I think it's a decent counter to SKterran, I mean, imo most of the time it's the marines flanking and retreating that prevents the zerg from winning the skirmish. I understand that handspeed is limited, but I was kinda hoping that maybe you know, one of you zerg players who are also great SKterrans (who have 300-400 APM) could own with this  ). In almost every game I've seen the terran has a 100 APM advantage, so maybe there's some breathing room to allocate some APM to a queen or two. Oh and I'll definitely check out Chojja. (Right now I'm just downloading every 9/10 ZvT replay on gosugamers).After a few experimental games with a friend of mine (hydra/lurk vs skterran), I found a nifty trick where you ensnare the leading edge of the M&M ball. If you do it right, they'll start to shift around, then de-clump to form a straggly line perpendicular to the direction they were traveling. Also, if you've engaged, you can do the same thing, and it'll get you one or two more lurker volleys, as well as making it easier to clean up. That's interesting. Maybe someone should make a microwars zerg map that focuses on Queen micro. ETA: Could someone tell me what a damage modifier is? (Damage-armor*modifier) I've searched but I can't find it. I want to know how to calculate damage per second so I can approximate how say, 24 hydras will do against 24 marines and compare that with 24 hydras vs 24 ensnared marines. Thank you. | ||
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Orome
Switzerland11984 Posts
If you're interested in queen play in general, you could pm Liquid.Drone and ask him for some of his old replays, he's one of the few players who implemented queens regularly ZvT. | ||
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Orome
Switzerland11984 Posts
queens are fucking good. really fucking good. I try to have them out before 8-9 minutes every zvt I play... then when the first attack comes that only contains a couple of tanks I can easily ensnare the rines and surround with lurker.. after that, load lurkers in overlords and ensnare scvs+lurker drop. that usually results in like 3-4 times as many scvs dead, even if he starts moving them instantly. they're also the best counter to 2 factory users.. you often see people have 20+ mutas, well queens cost exactly the same and by parasiting every vessel and dropship (you can also ensnare them which practically ensures scourging) you'll always know when he's moving out. and when he starts assembling a whole bunch of units, that's when you bust out your group of 12 queens and clonebroodling up to 12 tanks. ^_^ and then he's dead. and if you make queens you don't even have to kill each cc, just infest.. every single queen ability is made for fighting terran and i quite simply can't realize why they're not made more.. at the same time I have no idea how to counter them as terran, but I've never had anyone make queens against me so that doesn't seem like a big deal. :[ the thing is just that people havent realized that queens are just 100/100 instead of 100/150 which they used to be. or, they haven't realized how incredibly inexpensive 100/100 is for the spells given by the queen.. (and its a really fast flying unit too.. ) I mean lots of people on this boards (and other places) reactions are like "that's a lot of gas" but its not like watching people with 12 mutas is a weird thing.. 12 mutas+ spire costs way more and just swapping a couple of mutas for queens _is a great move_. zerg always needs queens nest cause hive units are really amazing vs terran (ultra guardian and defilers can all turn the game around to zergs favour), so why not spend like 300/300 (which is _NOTHING_) on a pair of queens and ensnare upgrade? | ||
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Warrior Madness
Canada3791 Posts
On April 24 2008 13:04 Orome wrote: Two Drone quotes on queens: Awesome quotes. I did see a Liquid Drone replay where he used a Queen or two pretty well against an M&M group. There's just something so very satisfying about seeing zerglings take out a large group of M&Ms when you know they SHOULD be slaughtered :D. However, I did notice his queen control was a little sloppy (it wasn't on the same level as his muta/scourge control) and his multitasking suffered a bit from Queen sniping, but it was still awesome. As a noobie mcnoobster who can barely keep his mineral count below 5000 in the later stages of the match, right now I'm really just focusing on basics i.e. remembering to build my extractor and upgrade to lair tech! So I don't build queens in zvt anymore. But since zvp is a little less micro intensive I find that getting a bunch of queens there to be advantageous. You really see the Queen's power in zvp --ensnaring corsairs/archons/zealots/goons/templars and parasiting archons-- they're like the defilers of a zvp match imho. | ||
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B1nary
Canada1267 Posts
On April 24 2008 11:37 MidnightGladius wrote: After a few experimental games with a friend of mine (hydra/lurk vs skterran), I found a nifty trick where you ensnare the leading edge of the M&M ball. If you do it right, they'll start to shift around, then de-clump to form a straggly line perpendicular to the direction they were traveling. Also, if you've engaged, you can do the same thing, and it'll get you one or two more lurker volleys, as well as making it easier to clean up. Unfortunately, my friend's not too great with vessel control, but it seemed feasible, at least when the vessel count is relatively low. I don't really see how that works. I thought it was good for T to form a line perpendicular to the lurks. Wouldn't that basically be spreading out his marines for him? | ||
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KonekoTyriin
United States60 Posts
At the pro level the game is significantly different but I suspect that individual players are generally unwilling to spend valuable practice time on a queen-reliant strategy when it's generally untested and assumed to be worse than... whatever else you'd spend 300/300 on. So no one tries it and finds out that it's amazing, because they're busy trying to become the best / remain the best at what is considered "standard play." Clearly Liquid`Drone exists in that little sliver of the graph between where good multitask starts and where the pressure to win is greater than the pressure to innovate... But really I have no idea. | ||
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jgad
Canada899 Posts
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Cloud
Sexico5880 Posts
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Hypnosis
United States2061 Posts
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tKd_
United States2916 Posts
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KlaCkoN
Sweden1661 Posts
And well they stopped doing it which I consider proof that for some reason queens aren't worth it at the highest level. Below pro level they can obviously be worth it, I mean I have used them to amazing effect =p | ||
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Warrior Madness
Canada3791 Posts
This has always been one of those great mysteries to me - my game intuition tells me that Queens are savagely underused by Zerg players, but then my other intuition tells me that progamers and their coaches spend way, way too much time analysing and thinking about game strategies to have totally overlooked their usage. Still, I fail to come up with any really strong reasons against having a few of them around for ensnare and parasiting critters or whatever. Sci vessels do for lurkers what Queens could do for tanks and nobody has to argue about how useful irradiate is - broodling still never gets used. The occasional strategic d-matrix often wins battles for terrans and I can't help but think that a bang-on ensnare might do the same for Zerg. The mystery persists...- Well to be fair, progamers and their coaches no doubt have spent countless of hours in the past analyzing and picking apart strategies and BOs but then why is it that no one before had ever consistently and successfully used Sairs, or defilers, or Nydus Canals, or even at some point science vessels? To truly capitalize on a novel idea someone must put in the effort to systematize and master it, and take it to the next level. And for whatever reasons, true or not true, programers don't see Queens as worth the effort. I tend to agree with KonekoTyriin's reasoning: At the pro level the game is significantly different but I suspect that individual players are generally unwilling to spend valuable practice time on a queen-reliant strategy when it's generally untested and assumed to be worse than... whatever else you'd spend 300/300 on. It's just not a proven and reliable strategy in the pro-circuit and thus these guys aren't willing to funnel any of their valuable time away from mastering defilers or muta micro to something seemingly not worth the effort. | ||
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jgad
Canada899 Posts
^ Even this is a great example - here with Guardians, but you could easily imagine that just for defence it would be amazing. Lure in an early M&M group then ensnare and bring out lurkers or whatever - even lings. Ensnare wreaks havoc on cooldown times as well, so a group of marines not only slows down, but they can't fire nearly as quickly either. Lings can devour an ensnared group of m&m and even, as in the above, a gang of mutas don't have to worry nearly as much as they would otherwise. Ensnare is only 75 energy, so you can cast 2 or 3 (energy upgraded) with one queen - that's exactly like storm. Even compared to swarm, at least while attacking on open field, for example, I think ensnare might even be more effective. With swarm you have one safe spot where your lings and lurkers have to charge into and hide, but with ensnare you hit the attackers themselves and can chase them even if they try to run. Swarm would still be better, I think, when laying siege to bases, etc, where you have to hide from cannons and need to attack in one spot (buildings, etc) for a lengthy time. I think Swarm over your own buildings or at your choke when defending is also the way to go, but when crossing open ground and driving an opponent back to their base I'd almost be willing to bet that you could do better with ensnare. | ||
KwarK
United States42695 Posts
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jgad
Canada899 Posts
Any time you get a quick breath to spam your drones, why not parasite some critters? Facing that massive m&m group lategame? Get the swarm up, charge in with your cracklings, and then bust off an ensnare or two. If protoss players can throw down three storms in the heat of battle there's no reason a zerg player can't get off an ensnare or two - at least my humble reckoning seems to think so. I guess the only way to know, though, is just to wait and see what comes out of pro starcraft - maybe it'll catch on, maybe, like the ill-fated Valkyrie, it just never will. | ||
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5HITCOMBO
Japan2239 Posts
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