EPT! [Q] Getting a Queen every game? - Page 7
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5HITCOMBO
Japan2239 Posts
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jgad
Canada899 Posts
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stanzzz
United States15 Posts
On April 27 2008 22:13 jgad wrote: This has always been one of those great mysteries to me - my game intuition tells me that Queens are savagely underused by Zerg players, but then my other intuition tells me that progamers and their coaches spend way, way too much time analysing and thinking about game strategies to have totally overlooked their usage. Still, I fail to come up with any really strong reasons against having a few of them around for ensnare and parasiting critters or whatever. Sci vessels do for lurkers what Queens could do for tanks and nobody has to argue about how useful irradiate is - broodling still never gets used. The occasional strategic d-matrix often wins battles for terrans and I can't help but think that a bang-on ensnare might do the same for Zerg. The mystery persists... well you can't really compare vessels to queens.. for one.. it's crucial for terrans, since they dont have any other form of detection other than static ones (and limited scans).. since they're gona get it anyway, why not upgrade them too also... isn't brodling like 150 energy? do zergs really have that much time to wait for 150 energy to tap a couple tanks? | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
Depending on the situation, Broodlinging tanks can either be pretty much worthless, or game breaking. If you're attacking a Terran natural, and they only have one or two tanks, set up on a cliff, your attack becomes loads more powerful when you take those out. If you're attacking the Terran blob, and they've got like 8 tanks and you only manage to get two, it's pretty much worthless (since broodling doesn't even work if the Queen dies before it hits). It's a very situational spell in my experience, and is better for small scale break-ins than large scale battles. | ||
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jgad
Canada899 Posts
I mean - consider that broodling has a range of 9... that's more than a goliath with range (8), even more than a turret (7) and only one less than a tank's vision. It's not just "tapping a couple of tanks" - it's being able to do it with stealth, from unexpected angles, taking the enemy by surprise. How many times does an expo have like two or three tanks sieged with a few turrets around? Broodling the tanks (which you can do without worrying about the turrets - range!) and then mop up with lings/lurks/whatever. No mess, you lose minimal units, and your ground force is massively amplified in terms of the damage it can do. Bargain. | ||
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Warrior Madness
Canada3791 Posts
I tend to agree. You don't always have time to wait for 150 energy, sure, and it isn't that every situation would be made better by having a queen, of course, but if you're trying to push the envelope - harassing with a tiny chunk of army or pulling out all the straws to defend, etc, then it can be an edge, I think, to have a queen in the mix to tip the balance in your favour. That you have to wait around for 2 minutes to ensnare is probably one of the strongest arguments against using Queens. It's impractical, not very convienent and messes up your timing. Not only that but your Queen would probably die before or after it used ensnare (though I've seen a few people like Liquid.Drone dodge weave around M&M's skillfully). So would it be worth it investing the resources, and more importantly investing your time to practice microing with Queens? Well I think you can answer the first objection by comparing the Queen to a high templar rather than a carrier or a worker. HTs and Queens are both vulnerable, have low hps, are micro-intensive and you must wait for their mana to recover before putting them to any use. They're almost wholly useless on their own or with the wrong units. However, with the right unit combination they can both potentially sway a battle and the game in your favour. With regards to the second objection, you would simply have to work on your Queen and unit micro. For example a skilled Queen user probably wouldn't even snipe with a Queen but instead he'd keep a few behind his hydra group or scourges and he'd engage the M&Ms normally i.e. swarming then moving his force in-- only while the M&Ms are backing away from the swarms and/or the science vessels are moving in to irradiate the defilers/lurkers/ultras would he move in his Queens to ensare the vessels or the edge of the M&M group. | ||
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thunk
United States6233 Posts
On April 27 2008 22:13 jgad wrote: This has always been one of those great mysteries to me - my game intuition tells me that Queens are savagely underused by Zerg players, but then my other intuition tells me that progamers and their coaches spend way, way too much time analysing and thinking about game strategies to have totally overlooked their usage. Still, I fail to come up with any really strong reasons against having a few of them around for ensnare and parasiting critters or whatever. Sci vessels do for lurkers what Queens could do for tanks and nobody has to argue about how useful irradiate is - broodling still never gets used. The occasional strategic d-matrix often wins battles for terrans and I can't help but think that a bang-on ensnare might do the same for Zerg. The mystery persists... It was used awhile back, before Savior management zerg was unleashed. If Savior hadn't been bojawa, one of the better zergs back then might have cracked the Queen nut. I don't really have the knowledge to back this up, but perhaps one could trace the unpopularity of the queen back to Savior's defiler usage. | ||
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ziggySD
Sweden8 Posts
And to those talking about combos: Don't you think queen would be great against SK terran thats always mobile and run away from swarm anyway? If your not dropping or attacking choke ofcourse. | ||
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PobTheCad
Australia893 Posts
it would be in the back of your mind 'must use queen' i think queens best use in zvt is to infest command centre as it saves you needing to do another 600 dmg to it and ensures he cannot rescue or repair it when vessels come out forget it | ||
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ziggySD
Sweden8 Posts
On May 16 2008 19:32 PobTheCad wrote: i think queen would take away concentration (when not used at a very high level) it would be in the back of your mind 'must use queen' i think queens best use in zvt is to infest command centre as it saves you needing to do another 600 dmg to it and ensures he cannot rescue or repair it when vessels come out forget it I think the opposite about when vessels come out. Would'nt it be a perfect anti vessel "team" with 1 queen and the scourges. The vessels always have time to run away or roam around the map. Don't mind getting the queen irridated. You still have the time to cast the important ensnare with this tactic. I really believe it could work if you use it with some practice. And there very easy to use and especially before you get defilers. It won't mess your micro up after a couple of games. Has to be said this is just my theories. I played for a couple of years ago and I started again like 2 months ago. So I'm going to try out my old tactics one again^^. I'll post som reps if i happened to succeed vs some "okey" players. I think it's ignorant to not use them just cause the pro's don't. Maybe they just don't have the guts or time to practice it. Maybe stuck with the positives about the defiler. I'ts not that good with swarm in open areas. You can just hurt good players a little while they run away. | ||
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GeneralStan
United States4789 Posts
On April 28 2008 05:53 5HITCOMBO wrote: I think ultraling combos better with ensnare than lurkerling does. Lurkers and defilers go together; ultras and queens match well. I don't think so. The main micro used by marines against lurkers is running the hell away. When they're ensnared, it's easy to get three of four lurkers surrounding the marines so that when they try to run away literally almost all of the marines die. Obviously though, lurkers and defilers are a match made in heaven. The question is, how does ultraling work with ensnare? | ||
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Louder
United States2276 Posts
Eri should chime in here. He's a queen lover from way back =O Also, this reminds me of Tsunami's ZvZ - hydra + queen ftw | ||
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5HITCOMBO
Japan2239 Posts
On May 16 2008 22:30 GeneralStan wrote: The question is, how does ultraling work with ensnare? A little bit of micro? | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32157 Posts
On April 28 2008 05:53 5HITCOMBO wrote: I think ultraling combos better with ensnare than lurkerling does. Lurkers and defilers go together; ultras and queens match well. I agree. There's a lot less work involved with ult/ling. You can fuck up your flank and still recover easily. The ults are gonna soak up all the hits. Lurk/ling, if you burrow in the wrong spot and he moves well, youre gonn have to reset. By the time I go up to hive tech, I usually get ensare and at least 1 queen (sometimes 2), provided im not behind. 200/200 for the research and the queen is pretty negligible considering the potelly major impact it could have on a game, if you ask me. Broodling...not so much. I find that a lot harder to use | ||
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PePe QuiCoSE
Argentina1204 Posts
I remember reading that in the famous FBH vs Savior series, game 5 @ python, broodling was considered like a good idea to kill tanks in the cliff near the island expo. I think that queens have been pretty much discussed around and that reps are the only new thing that could be added. | ||
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ziggySD
Sweden8 Posts
On May 17 2008 04:44 Hawk wrote: I agree. There's a lot less work involved with ult/ling. You can fuck up your flank and still recover easily. The ults are gonna soak up all the hits. Lurk/ling, if you burrow in the wrong spot and he moves well, youre gonn have to reset. By the time I go up to hive tech, I usually get ensare and at least 1 queen (sometimes 2), provided im not behind. 200/200 for the research and the queen is pretty negligible considering the potelly major impact it could have on a game, if you ask me. Broodling...not so much. I find that a lot harder to use I don't agree, not from experience though  So I might change my mind after a couple of games with this, but at the moment from thinking about it. It should be better with ensnare lurk/ling since your lurks wont die as fast with ensnared marines. And won't run circles around you=). And by the way, vessels does get slow from ensnare, right? I just can't remember if it had any effect on them. | ||
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NeoMesh
Canada49 Posts
I rarely see these used to counter tanks range in games.. and I find they work great for me.. I often get 1-2 queens to counter a lot of siege.. due to the terran's immobility it works great.. I don't see why pro's don't use them more often to compliment their army and take out a few siege easily without losing units.. | ||
IntoTheWow
is awesome32281 Posts
On May 17 2008 05:24 NeoMesh wrote: I don't get it, How come no one has even mentioned spawn broodling? I rarely see these used to counter tanks range in games.. and I find they work great for me.. I often get 1-2 queens to counter a lot of siege.. due to the terran's immobility it works great.. I don't see why pro's don't use them more often to compliment their army and take out a few siege easily without losing units.. Spawn broodling takes a research, lots of mana. A vessel gets irradiate a faster and can counter your queens easily. Queens themselves cost gas. | ||
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QuanticHawk
United States32157 Posts
On May 17 2008 05:11 ziggySD wrote: I don't agree, not from experience though So I might change my mind after a couple of games with this, but at the moment from thinking about it. It should be better with ensnare lurk/ling since your lurks wont die as fast with ensnared marines. And won't run circles around you=). And by the way, vessels does get slow from ensnare, right? I just can't remember if it had any effect on them. It's certainly viable with lurk/ling (i had a decent zvt last night where i fended off at my choke with ensnare and a group of lurk and 2 ling groups), just kinda harder for reasons stated. Like if you snare him, and try to burrow around him and he moves out of the way, you have to unburrow, move closer again, while trying to get lings on the opposite end to trap him in...burning the ensnare time. You cant outrun cracks/graded ults =p You get a decent angle and its just attack move really. | ||
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anotak
United States1537 Posts
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