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I always wanted to test this, and finally did it.
I played alone in LT to test the benefits of a manner pylon.
How did I do this?
-I created a pylon when I had 100 minerals
-I sent 2 probes mining from the minerals that were blocked, while two others would destroy the pylon
-When the pylon was destroyed, I checked how much minerals the 2 probes had collected in total.
-I did it 10 times, 5 times in 2 LT patches, 5 times on 2 other LT patches.
Results:
The probes mined 120-128 minerals each time
Conclusion:
-My first impulse was to conclude that it was a little beneficial move, to give up 100 minerals (pylons) to take off the opportunity cost of mining 120-128 minerals from the enemy.
-On a second thought, this might not seen as good, because you're losing an immediate 100, while the enemy is losing a short-run 120-128 minerals. Could his money be put to a better investment, you could have actually fallen behind. Specially because you get no returns on losing a pylon, and you are gonna have to substitute this important unit with another, therefore costing you 200 minerals.
-In other words, it might be able to delay a second/third zealots from the enemy, while keeping your Build Order intact for the period that pylon survives (seeing that you got the manner pylon at 15/17, for example, as part of the BO).
In other eventualities it might be beneficial if 3+ probes get trapped.
I didnt try for the rewards of trapping 1 probe, and comparison from gather behind the line (trapped 0 probes), because it just seems logic that it is not as beneficial as trapping 2 probes.
Thoughts?
Did I miss anything?
PS: Vs Terran is a brand different story, because Tech timing matter more, so delaying the terran factory/tech a bit may earn the protoss the advantage she needs to cause some damage.
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that's assuming you trapped two probes.
what if you trap zero and probesj ust have to go around to mine
also, manner is usually coupled with zeal rush/harassment
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So from blocking 2 probes?, they are not mining 128 minerals? You could always cancel the pylon at the last second. And how did you calculate that the 2 probes that are stuck would mine 100-128?
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Keep in mind that most players will get all probes out of the block but one, but that probably doesnt make a difference if you are still attacking it with the same amount of probes.
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On September 11 2007 13:06 il0seonpurpose wrote:
So from blocking 2 probes?, they are not mining 128 minerals? You could always cancel the pylon at the last second. And how did you calculate that the 2 probes that are stuck would mine 100-128?
That's how much they should be mining, I think?
On September 11 2007 13:09 BalloonFight wrote:
Keep in mind that most players will get all probes out of the block but one, but that probably doesnt make a difference if you are still attacking it with the same amount of probes.
And yeah, they can do the stack thing so manner pylon isn't too effective ;/
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CA10835 Posts
i find the benefit is a lot more psychological
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You can get all the blocked probes out, there was a thread about this in the past (and there was a video demonstrating it). It's a nifty little trick.
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United States44439 Posts
No immediate return on the investment? It's a pylon. It allows you to build shit. A decent player will use a manner pylon to keep his early production running in the same way a normal pylon would. So he won't be at all behind until after the pylon dies.
In short, you're wrong to say a pylon is an immediate investment while the 128 is over time. The opposite is true. The pylon is functional right up to the point it dies and needs to be replaced which is after the 128. Simply put, it gives the person manner pyloning a short term advantage of up to 128 which will need to be later repaid.
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8751 Posts
On September 11 2007 13:18 ArC_man wrote:
You can get all the blocked probes out, there was a thread about this in the past (and there was a video demonstrating it). It's a nifty little trick.
yeah that Commentator dude was a gosu poster
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What if you cancel the pylon? Then you lose 25, is that a gain?
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On September 11 2007 13:31 NonY[rC] wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2007 13:18 ArC_man wrote:
You can get all the blocked probes out, there was a thread about this in the past (and there was a video demonstrating it). It's a nifty little trick. yeah that Commentator dude was a gosu poster
Problem is you still can't mine the patches that the manner pylon blocks without going all the way around.
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On September 11 2007 13:32 alphablend wrote:
What if you cancel the pylon? Then you lose 25, is that a gain?
34
On September 11 2007 13:38 alphablend wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2007 13:31 NonY[rC] wrote:On September 11 2007 13:18 ArC_man wrote:
You can get all the blocked probes out, there was a thread about this in the past (and there was a video demonstrating it). It's a nifty little trick. yeah that Commentator dude was a gosu poster Problem is you still can't mine the patches that the manner pylon blocks without going all the way around.
Don't you just do the stack/clip trick on the minerals that are in the immediate vicinity?
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On September 11 2007 13:17 LosingID8 wrote:
i find the benefit is a lot more psychological
On September 11 2007 13:09 BalloonFight wrote:
Keep in mind that most players will get all probes out of the block but one, but that probably doesnt make a difference if you are still attacking it with the same amount of probes.
Why wouldnt it make a difference?
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How does your logic make sense? He doesn't lose 128 minerals. What he actually loses is the difference between 128 minerals and how many minerals they could've mined if the pylon wasn't blocking. Also the two probes that are attacking the pylon could be mining too, so he loses an additional however much he could have mined with those 2 attacking probes.
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On September 11 2007 13:42 Wonders wrote:
How does your logic make sense? He doesn't lose 128 minerals. What he actually loses is the difference between 128 minerals and how many minerals they could've mined if the pylon wasn't blocking. Also the two probes that are attacking the pylon could be mining too, so he loses an additional however much he could have mined with those 2 attacking probes.
The 2 attacking probes are the ones stuck... but it doesn't matter since they can jump over anyways.
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On September 11 2007 13:31 NonY[rC] wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2007 13:18 ArC_man wrote:
You can get all the blocked probes out, there was a thread about this in the past (and there was a video demonstrating it). It's a nifty little trick. yeah that Commentator dude was a gosu poster
lol, I thought we uncovered your little secret? =P
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Sorry I misunderstood that bit. But the point still stands, the enemy loses mining time from the 2 probes trapped completely, and a slower mining time for other untrapped probes.
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United States24810 Posts
On September 11 2007 13:39 Superiorwolf wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2007 13:32 alphablend wrote:
What if you cancel the pylon? Then you lose 25, is that a gain? 34 Show nested quote +On September 11 2007 13:38 alphablend wrote:On September 11 2007 13:31 NonY[rC] wrote:On September 11 2007 13:18 ArC_man wrote:
You can get all the blocked probes out, there was a thread about this in the past (and there was a video demonstrating it). It's a nifty little trick. yeah that Commentator dude was a gosu poster Problem is you still can't mine the patches that the manner pylon blocks without going all the way around. Don't you just do the stack/clip trick on the minerals that are in the immediate vicinity?
Are all cancellations 33% or something? I always thought it was 25 but I never checked.
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On September 11 2007 13:56 micronesia wrote:Show nested quote +On September 11 2007 13:39 Superiorwolf wrote:On September 11 2007 13:32 alphablend wrote:
What if you cancel the pylon? Then you lose 25, is that a gain? 34 On September 11 2007 13:38 alphablend wrote:On September 11 2007 13:31 NonY[rC] wrote:On September 11 2007 13:18 ArC_man wrote:
You can get all the blocked probes out, there was a thread about this in the past (and there was a video demonstrating it). It's a nifty little trick. yeah that Commentator dude was a gosu poster Problem is you still can't mine the patches that the manner pylon blocks without going all the way around. Don't you just do the stack/clip trick on the minerals that are in the immediate vicinity? Are all cancellations 33% or something? I always thought it was 25 but I never checked.
Yeah it's about 33%, I remember doing a extractor cancel test and it was 17 minerals, so extractor probably 33 or 34.
Unit cancel is free though, and buildings with units and they die you get money back I think.
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On September 11 2007 13:57 Superiorwolf wrote:
Unit cancel is free though, and buildings with units and they die you get money back I think.
THAT'S RIGHT.
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EPT
