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What is this new pvt style with no arbiters?

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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1 2 3 Next All
Jubinell
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
333 Posts
January 09 2021 06:28 GMT
#1
Recently everybody is playing it, Best notably. No stargate, no arbiters. Just mass shuttles with speed and mass templars.

What is the new mechanic that made arbiter play obsolete?

I noticed terran has also evolved their play to counter this. evenly spread tanks, conscious vulture runby at nat looking for unguarded templars, lots of EMPs, etc.
Leonix
Profile Joined June 2019
161 Posts
January 09 2021 06:37 GMT
#2
The secret mechanic that make arbiter obsolete is the fact that Arbiters are OP...
Me_ToKa
Profile Joined September 2009
Bulgaria309 Posts
January 09 2021 07:16 GMT
#3
Man watch Ultimate battle match Light vs Best. There you can see how powerful is this strategy. And yes it is currently really trendy.
y2kid
Profile Joined May 2018
92 Posts
January 09 2021 08:50 GMT
#4
Think it's very good especially on big maps due to arbiter's clunkyness :/ They're big and slow. React very poorly to clicks etc. One EMP just ruins your day. On the other side, if you have HTs in shuttles that's both fast and unaffected by EMP. Gives you a lot more mobility and is useful for the counterattacking/backstabs that P likes to do later on.
ProMeTheus112
Profile Joined December 2009
France2027 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-01-09 10:50:15
January 09 2021 10:47 GMT
#5
wow that's surprising i always thought and actually was taught that arbiters were simply necessary (basically to have a chance to battle T at 200/200 without losing straight after), I really like to hear that at the highest level its possible to choose not to do that so you have more choice of end game strategy in pvt thats great
(i mean carriers was already a possible alternative otherwise though or even possibly a mix)
Jubinell
Profile Blog Joined September 2009
333 Posts
January 09 2021 14:26 GMT
#6
One really cool thing u can do as protoss with this strategy is storm the incoming terran army. Imagine the terran is coming to a choke in front of one of your nats with 7-10 tanks u can send a few zealots heads-on to take the hit, then drop your templars behind. 3-4 templars x 2 rounds of storms and all the tanks are gone!
Timebon3s
Profile Joined May 2018
Norway688 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-01-09 14:29:42
January 09 2021 14:29 GMT
#7
I have always said storm is underused in pvt and reavers underused in pvz. The damage storm does to sieged tanks is simply too good to not use. Jangbi knew this and he was a terran killer. And the potential stormdrops have is insane.

It’s also sad to see protoss recalling half his army into mines and then lose to a counterattack on his natural and killing all units beeing produced
ProMeTheus112
Profile Joined December 2009
France2027 Posts
January 09 2021 14:51 GMT
#8
On January 09 2021 23:29 Timebon3s wrote:
It’s also sad to see protoss recalling half his army into mines and then lose to a counterattack on his natural and killing all units beeing produced

yeah i dont like blind recalls i avoid doing that almost just don't do it
also agree reavers prob underused in pvz
i was trying the templar style a bunch of times just worried about the 200/200 army but if it works at best level it must simply be a good style then should have a look
whaski
Profile Joined December 2012
Finland576 Posts
January 09 2021 15:31 GMT
#9
On January 09 2021 23:51 ProMeTheus112 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 09 2021 23:29 Timebon3s wrote:
It’s also sad to see protoss recalling half his army into mines and then lose to a counterattack on his natural and killing all units beeing produced

yeah i dont like blind recalls i avoid doing that almost just don't do it
also agree reavers prob underused in pvz
i was trying the templar style a bunch of times just worried about the 200/200 army but if it works at best level it must simply be a good style then should have a look


I picked this up from Best Youtube- chat:

Big adjustment is the number of probes and expansions. Protoss makes timing attack with shuttle and storm and trades with terran. Then you just trade and trade. Terran dries and never quite gets 200/200 with 3/2. If protoss cannot demolish scvs or trade with storm it becomes tricky because lower number of probes.

So it comes down to Best and his insane optimization to have just right ammount of stuff to constantly pressure terran and trade/harass with storm. The greatest pvt is back.
it's not just a music it's something else
whaski
Profile Joined December 2012
Finland576 Posts
January 09 2021 15:32 GMT
#10
As a bonus, here

it's not just a music it's something else
omahahowitzer
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States98 Posts
January 10 2021 13:29 GMT
#11
On January 10 2021 00:32 whaski wrote:
As a bonus, here

https://youtu.be/MXYRhJOmOkc


can someone explain this opening for me? 16 gas, 20 core, 3 zealots before goon. Best's PvT is too next level it is beyond my comprehension
Soulforged
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Latvia918 Posts
January 10 2021 14:00 GMT
#12
It isn't an easy style to play, for sure.

The main problem is that you have to keep trading. The trades may be slightly ineffecient, but if you get shut down hard one time, you can no longer do so, and you will have to deal with that 200.
Now there's options to deal with that, such as:
1)getting decent trades by constantly moving around, faking engagement attempt with part of the army while repositioning the most of it elsewhere, trying and catching terran out of position
2)letting them push and doing a counterattack, while reinforcements + defensive storms slow down terran advance, eventually returning and flanking their army when it isn't positioned ideally. This generally trades bases 1:1 and armies, which is what protoss wants
3)or even engaging them as they move out and mass drop zealots on the tanks as they pass the mine field...

all of these are things that frequently come up in Best games as ways to turn things around if he loses tempo. but it is difficult
this style is all about tempo
if terran stabilizes and puts defensive mines everywhere(or even worse, on counter attack routes as well), this can end up being very problematic

I wonder if best gets significantly more than 60 probes due to his constant trades, though. That seems like something that can both be amazing if you keep the constant trades going, and backfire a lot if terran stabilizes.
lurkgoon
Profile Joined November 2020
11 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-01-10 15:19:08
January 10 2021 15:00 GMT
#13
On January 10 2021 22:29 omahahowitzer wrote:
Show nested quote +
On January 10 2021 00:32 whaski wrote:
As a bonus, here

https://youtu.be/MXYRhJOmOkc


can someone explain this opening for me? 16 gas, 20 core, 3 zealots before goon. Best's PvT is too next level it is beyond my comprehension

It's your basic zzcorez. You don't have to stop building probes or zeals and can still get your core up reasonably fast. It's probably the best compromise for a safe zealot pressure build in pvt. The gate can be made at your ramp or natural choke, with the natural choke being more common.

Even if your zealot pressure gets shut down, like what happens in the first game, it's not the end of the world. Don't keep throwing zeals away - they are still useful for defending a counterattack, or to later load up in a shuttle with a reaver.

You can't expect a whole lot from a 10 gate at your ramp or natural, though it does have the potential to really mess up an unprepared opponent, as you can see in a later game on Polypoid.

In general, Best does a really good job mixing up his builds, with various standard tech builds, forward gate, 12 nexus, etc. Most Protoss players rely too much on the standard 1 gate, 13 core, no zealot builds.
Kingdom[NaS]
Profile Joined April 2018
74 Posts
January 10 2021 16:13 GMT
#14
Storm style is good vrs pushes, arb style is better vrs turtle terran
ne4aJIb
Profile Blog Joined July 2011
Russian Federation3209 Posts
January 10 2021 16:53 GMT
#15
I dont think you wait with shuttles until terran gets 200 supply.
Bisu,Best,Stork,Jangbi and Flash, Fantasy, Leta, Light and Jaedong, Hydra, Zero, Soulkey assemble in ACE now!
Dangermousecatdog
Profile Joined December 2010
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Last Edited: 2021-01-10 20:42:15
January 10 2021 19:55 GMT
#16
There's nothing new about putting HT in shuttles, or having HT to storm tanks. Or moving out to prevent Terran from building up their push.
BigFan
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
TLADT24920 Posts
January 10 2021 23:52 GMT
#17
It's not really a new style if I'm understanding things properly. Using a gateway army with ht support was a style that was played frequently in the past, but over the years, protoss players started using arbiters much more. I'm not really sure why the change now, but I am glad to see it being used again because it makes for some great games.
Former BW EiC"Watch Bakemonogatari or I will kill you." -Toad, April 18th, 2017
Soulforged
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
Latvia918 Posts
January 11 2021 11:14 GMT
#18
The maps and the reaver opening development, probably.

It isn't that great on maps with a 'free 3rd base' that we had frequent in the past.
Current reaver openings and maps make terran work for their 3rd base, and then it is still either exposed or far enough to where the mobility of speed shuttle-goon can take good trades.
JieXian
Profile Blog Joined August 2008
Malaysia4677 Posts
January 11 2021 13:41 GMT
#19
On January 11 2021 08:52 BigFan wrote:
It's not really a new style if I'm understanding things properly. Using a gateway army with ht support was a style that was played frequently in the past, but over the years, protoss players started using arbiters much more. I'm not really sure why the change now, but I am glad to see it being used again because it makes for some great games.

Yes if I recall correctly, P didn't used to rush to arbiters back then (but then again I was absolutely terrible back then). However, I'm sure there would be some new twist to what we see on the surface
Please send me a PM of any song you like that I most probably never heard of! I am looking for people to chat about writing and producing music | https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=noD-bsOcxuU |
angry_maia
Profile Joined August 2020
311 Posts
January 12 2021 02:39 GMT
#20
I absolutely love this style (watching, I have no chance at actually playing it lol). Leads to super action packed games
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