EPTWhat is the new mechanic that made arbiter play obsolete?
I noticed terran has also evolved their play to counter this. evenly spread tanks, conscious vulture runby at nat looking for unguarded templars, lots of EMPs, etc.
What is this new pvt style with no arbiters?
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Jubinell
333 Posts
What is the new mechanic that made arbiter play obsolete? I noticed terran has also evolved their play to counter this. evenly spread tanks, conscious vulture runby at nat looking for unguarded templars, lots of EMPs, etc. | ||
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Leonix
161 Posts
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Me_ToKa
Bulgaria309 Posts
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y2kid
92 Posts
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
(i mean carriers was already a possible alternative otherwise though or even possibly a mix) | ||
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Jubinell
333 Posts
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Timebon3s
Norway688 Posts
It’s also sad to see protoss recalling half his army into mines and then lose to a counterattack on his natural and killing all units beeing produced | ||
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ProMeTheus112
France2027 Posts
On January 09 2021 23:29 Timebon3s wrote: It’s also sad to see protoss recalling half his army into mines and then lose to a counterattack on his natural and killing all units beeing produced yeah i dont like blind recalls i avoid doing that almost just don't do it also agree reavers prob underused in pvz i was trying the templar style a bunch of times just worried about the 200/200 army but if it works at best level it must simply be a good style then should have a look | ||
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whaski
Finland576 Posts
On January 09 2021 23:51 ProMeTheus112 wrote: yeah i dont like blind recalls i avoid doing that almost just don't do it also agree reavers prob underused in pvz i was trying the templar style a bunch of times just worried about the 200/200 army but if it works at best level it must simply be a good style then should have a look I picked this up from Best Youtube- chat: Big adjustment is the number of probes and expansions. Protoss makes timing attack with shuttle and storm and trades with terran. Then you just trade and trade. Terran dries and never quite gets 200/200 with 3/2. If protoss cannot demolish scvs or trade with storm it becomes tricky because lower number of probes. So it comes down to Best and his insane optimization to have just right ammount of stuff to constantly pressure terran and trade/harass with storm. The greatest pvt is back. | ||
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whaski
Finland576 Posts
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omahahowitzer
United States98 Posts
can someone explain this opening for me? 16 gas, 20 core, 3 zealots before goon. Best's PvT is too next level it is beyond my comprehension | ||
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Soulforged
Latvia918 Posts
The main problem is that you have to keep trading. The trades may be slightly ineffecient, but if you get shut down hard one time, you can no longer do so, and you will have to deal with that 200. Now there's options to deal with that, such as: 1)getting decent trades by constantly moving around, faking engagement attempt with part of the army while repositioning the most of it elsewhere, trying and catching terran out of position 2)letting them push and doing a counterattack, while reinforcements + defensive storms slow down terran advance, eventually returning and flanking their army when it isn't positioned ideally. This generally trades bases 1:1 and armies, which is what protoss wants 3)or even engaging them as they move out and mass drop zealots on the tanks as they pass the mine field... all of these are things that frequently come up in Best games as ways to turn things around if he loses tempo. but it is difficult this style is all about tempo if terran stabilizes and puts defensive mines everywhere(or even worse, on counter attack routes as well), this can end up being very problematic I wonder if best gets significantly more than 60 probes due to his constant trades, though. That seems like something that can both be amazing if you keep the constant trades going, and backfire a lot if terran stabilizes. | ||
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lurkgoon
11 Posts
On January 10 2021 22:29 omahahowitzer wrote: can someone explain this opening for me? 16 gas, 20 core, 3 zealots before goon. Best's PvT is too next level it is beyond my comprehension It's your basic zzcorez. You don't have to stop building probes or zeals and can still get your core up reasonably fast. It's probably the best compromise for a safe zealot pressure build in pvt. The gate can be made at your ramp or natural choke, with the natural choke being more common. Even if your zealot pressure gets shut down, like what happens in the first game, it's not the end of the world. Don't keep throwing zeals away - they are still useful for defending a counterattack, or to later load up in a shuttle with a reaver. You can't expect a whole lot from a 10 gate at your ramp or natural, though it does have the potential to really mess up an unprepared opponent, as you can see in a later game on Polypoid. In general, Best does a really good job mixing up his builds, with various standard tech builds, forward gate, 12 nexus, etc. Most Protoss players rely too much on the standard 1 gate, 13 core, no zealot builds. | ||
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Kingdom[NaS]
74 Posts
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ne4aJIb
Russian Federation3209 Posts
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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Soulforged
Latvia918 Posts
It isn't that great on maps with a 'free 3rd base' that we had frequent in the past. Current reaver openings and maps make terran work for their 3rd base, and then it is still either exposed or far enough to where the mobility of speed shuttle-goon can take good trades. | ||
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JieXian
Malaysia4677 Posts
On January 11 2021 08:52 BigFan wrote: It's not really a new style if I'm understanding things properly. Using a gateway army with ht support was a style that was played frequently in the past, but over the years, protoss players started using arbiters much more. I'm not really sure why the change now, but I am glad to see it being used again because it makes for some great games. Yes if I recall correctly, P didn't used to rush to arbiters back then (but then again I was absolutely terrible back then). However, I'm sure there would be some new twist to what we see on the surface | ||
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angry_maia
311 Posts
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TelecoM
United States10671 Posts
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KwarK
United States42578 Posts
On January 11 2021 01:53 ne4aJIb wrote: I dont think you wait with shuttles until terran gets 200 supply. Correct. The purpose of the style is to prevent the Terran from ever reaching his 200 supply mass upgraded tank army. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4024 Posts
HT management is very difficult, especially with many bases and other locations being threatened at once, but they're are a lot cheaper than arbiters and storm only requires 75 energy so they can be very effective at defending various locations, especially against a moving terran tank army. Plus, anti-storm unit control and ambushing tactics against HT's for terran aren't any easier either. The added cost of speed shuttles isn't exactly a big problem for protoss, as zealots have very limited DPS and are easy to pick off when running around unprotected. So putting some of the production into shuttles instead of zealots does make a lot of sense. Storm can be utilized against just about everything: tanks, vultures, goliaths, even occasionally against spider mines and science vessels. Something that was previously overlooked is that it can als be used to keep SCV numbers low. This is a very effective tactic because consistently reducing the SCV count will significantly slow down terran production and therefore delay reinforcement, giving protoss crucial breathing space in battle. Flash demonstrated this when he was practicing random protoss. Killing SCV's can also help in combat as they can be used to repair stuff or block incoming protoss units. Basically the HT was quite an overlooked unit in the past few years. Who knows why exactly it's more popular now, but from what we've been seeing it seems it'll stick around and possibly drive down the terran winrate, because having several equally valid options can't hurt. | ||
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Jealous
10138 Posts
On January 11 2021 08:52 BigFan wrote: It's not really a new style if I'm understanding things properly. Using a gateway army with ht support was a style that was played frequently in the past, but over the years, protoss players started using arbiters much more. I'm not really sure why the change now, but I am glad to see it being used again because it makes for some great games. To my understanding, it's not the same approach as it was in the "pre-Arbiter" days and it is viable because players are not only more mechanically sound but also because of the use of Shuttles, as well as the fact that Shuttles are useful from a much earlier point in the game and against a large variety of Terran pushes and plays. They are good for busting, elevators, harass, bombing pushes, etc. It's really a confluence of multiple factors. | ||
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BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
On January 14 2021 01:04 Jealous wrote: To my understanding, it's not the same approach as it was in the "pre-Arbiter" days and it is viable because players are not only more mechanically sound but also because of the use of Shuttles, as well as the fact that Shuttles are useful from a much earlier point in the game and against a large variety of Terran pushes and plays. They are good for busting, elevators, harass, bombing pushes, etc. It's really a confluence of multiple factors. That's fair. I haven't watched a lot of TvPs lately so figured it was similar in style. I always wondered why hts weren't used more because their potential is insane if used well (think about all the possibilities on top of eco damage with storm drops) so it's nice to see them being used much more. | ||
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niteReloaded
Croatia5281 Posts
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Jealous
10138 Posts
On January 14 2021 09:16 niteReloaded wrote: I'm not following the scene very closely recently, but I do take a peek occasionally. The first time I saw this was seeing Flash random into Protoss. Was this style alive before then, or did Flash perhaps start it? Speed Shuttle-centric PvT has been around for at least 1 year, may be closer to 2 or even 3 by now but it's hard for me to pinpoint a progenitor or specific game/time. | ||
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SlimZerg
7 Posts
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Jealous
10138 Posts
On January 16 2021 15:01 SlimZerg wrote: Exactly Spoilers please  | ||
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ox.tQ
794 Posts
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Dante08
Singapore4126 Posts
It mainly comes from speed shuttle reaver builds which have been very strong and also extremely hard for terran to push into. Protoss eventually figured since you tech to arbiters after reavers anyway, why not skip arbiters and make use of templar and speed shuttles flying around and constantly trade with Terran to prevent them from getting that 200/200. The downside of Arbiters is you have to wait for the unit + energy to build compared to the HT which comes from the gateway and only needs 75 energy for storm. That being said the arbiter is still too good to completely skip so you will still see Protoss tech to arbiters if the game goes on for 20min+ but yeah this style is extremely strong and Terrans need to figure out how to counter it accordingly. | ||
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Magic Powers
Austria4024 Posts
I made a prediction a while back for something similar to that in PvZ, cycling 2-3 shuttles around with reavers or HT's, mainly to save protoss expansions. Apparently the gist of the idea has instead been better established in PvT. | ||
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doubleupgradeobbies!
Australia1187 Posts
By lategame, when engaging, P are just expecting to lose any singular engagement, by that stage, stasised units are just effectively units that are taking a time out, they will come back once it's expired because P will never control the battlefield after the engagement until the game is effectively over via breaking the entire terran push. If your goal is not to break the terran push outright in a single engagement (which it shouldn't be under most circumstances), but instead to kill off as much of the terran army as you can while losing your army, storm is actually better at this than stasis. The stuff under storm is often just dead, rather than taking a time out. It was one of the problems I found Bisu to have in PvT. He'd get himself into winning positions, and then get too cutsie with contains/carrier play instead of just going to kill the T army and ending the game. If you are ahead, sometimes it's ok not to trade efficiently, just kill the T army, even if you lose yours in the process, and the game will be over. | ||
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iloveav
Poland1478 Posts
Arbiters are still better, but there are a lot of question marks when playing arbiters. For example: Can I get away with making a 4rth base now or will I be runned over because terran is gonna scout it and hit me sooner than I have the amount of arbiters/stasis/recalls that i need to stop the push. Remember that if you play arbs, you either play them very early (meaning your macro suffers) or you play them late (meaning you have pure mass army until the arb is ready, then it can be EMPed for example. Scan likes to do that). HTs on the other hand: build faster, cost mostly gas, can be used to slow down terran economy (if he plays passive) or stop pushes (if he plays agressivly), is much faster in your tech tree and (in my opinion most importantly) forces the terran to micro more consistently meaning his multitasking should suffer. The problem is: the same applies to you. You have more things to manage and your macro will be worse (no longer 1a2a3a+1 or 2 stasis). Personally I think HT is a good middle ground but does not exclude the nessesitiy of Arbiters in late game, however it gives a stronger middle game (assuming you can control it call). 4 reasons for arbiters: 1. Added Mobility. 2. Stalling fights you cant take at this time. 3. Recalls are stupidly powerful both onto the enemy's army as well as in his bases. 4. Forces terrans to EITHER: have vessels, turrets or constantly scan (meaning less hotkeys for other things). This is btw, theorycrafting assuming you and your enemy are at the exact same skill level on everything. If for example, you suck at controlling your army but you have great macro, playing like this is probably gonna get you killed very fast, especially if your opponent excells at micro (compared to you that is). This almost never happens at anything under S rank from what I can see, so its less of an issue. However, using HTs in PvT means your entire build order and play style is now changed, so its not as if you can just do it and expect it to work perfectly. Last time I tried it the terran pushed after I had HT's ready but trying to get to Arbiters, and I died because Storm didnt do enough. | ||
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JoinTheRain
Bulgaria408 Posts
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chillzzz
30 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria4024 Posts
On July 02 2021 10:07 chillzzz wrote: does anyone have advice on using this pvt style? it feels much more difficult execution wise than using arbs or carriers with the amount of macro/micro/multitasking it demands. I often end up in a position where terran secures their 3rd and turtles with mine fields/turrets, I can't break a base and the 200/200 max out is inevitable. You've made a very important observation. Psi storms work best against attack-moving armies, but if terran waits to max out, then the HTs just sit around and do nothing. Carriers/arbiters can harass a patient terran better. When Flash played random he used speed shuttles to continuously harass the SCV lines and keep them in lower numbers. That style worked pretty well and other top protoss players copied it. It slows down terran's economy, giving protoss more time. When terran moves out, protoss can throw wave after wave at terran, that's when storms are the most effective. Unfortunately it requires a lot of APM and precision. If everything goes right with the harassment, terran will have to compromise on either army supply or number of bases before he goes to destroy protoss bases. | ||
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MineraIs
United States846 Posts
Also ghosts are commong in TvsP now to counter arbitors. shuttle > arbs imo | ||
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TMNT
2674 Posts
On July 02 2021 11:31 Magic Powers wrote: When Flash played random he used speed shuttles to continuously harass the SCV lines and keep them in lower numbers. That style worked pretty well and other top protoss players copied it. Dude I know Flash is the GOAT of BW but he made some storm drops when playing PvT. It's not like he invented a new strategy or something that other top Protoss players had to copy. It's like saying Flash used mines in TvP then other top Terrans copied it. As for the style itself, to answer the question of chillz, yes it's actually quite hard to pull off because you have to attack Terran relentlessly to always keep their supply at an acceptably low level until you can deliver the killing blow. Otherwise if they max out, you are stuck in a situation where you don't have a late game solution and will eventually lose. Best is the one who does this style best currently, and imo is the only top pro who can pull this off convincingly. Watch him and learn. Or you can watch Shuttle who also likes this style very much but can't execute it properly and often runs out of steam in the late game. See the differences in what they do. | ||
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Leonix
161 Posts
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TaardadAiel
Bulgaria750 Posts
Seems like a very technical approach, requires great multitasking with shuttle loading/unloading/casting storm/moving the main army around in reasonable formation with observers and the shuttles AND macroing at the same time. I rather like it, but feels very high-end; at anything below A probably the Terran timings aren't as crisp and optimized so the window to engage in a meaningful way with conventional gateway army + arbs is wider, so not that worthwhile to risk such a technical style. This is from a pure viewer point of view, there's certainly dozens of variables that people who actually play the game might expand upon. | ||
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TheGreatOne
United States534 Posts
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Toss_Master
United States46 Posts
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prosatan
Romania7995 Posts
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WombaT
Northern Ireland25082 Posts
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