EPTTvZ Sunk Break??
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SkelA
Macedonia13069 Posts
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SteelString
446 Posts
Good formation and micro means you should +1 attack, but usually armor is better. | ||
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tKd_
United States2916 Posts
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
Considering that most pure sunk break builds use a stim/+1 attack build, I'd expect that attack is what you want... but "depends on your micro" sounds legitimate as well --;; | ||
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hanhcom
37 Posts
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dropthesky
Canada285 Posts
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SteelString
446 Posts
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oshibori_probe
United States2934 Posts
On April 08 2007 09:54 SteelString wrote: Depends on your micro! Good formation and micro means you should +1 attack, but usually armor is better. Or does it depend on the number of sunkens? | ||
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SayaSP
Laos5494 Posts
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LuMiX
China5757 Posts
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Last Romantic
United States20661 Posts
You have medics, so the extra hit you can take isn't all that useful. Reducing sunken armor by one is much more utile. | ||
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wXs.Havok
Argentina529 Posts
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lololol
5198 Posts
With +armor your marines take 3 hits minimum, but you have to wait for your medics to heal before attacking and just a little of stimpacks duration will remain for actual attacking(and stimming in the middle of the fight will drastically increase your losses in a pretty even situation) and you'll take down the sunkens slower, giving the zerg more time to send zerglings/drones, focus fire, e.t.c. With +attack you send medics to take the first hits, stim and charge. It's a lot faster, but you usually take a bit more losses. | ||
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nortydog
Australia3067 Posts
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minus_human
4784 Posts
Armor is the way to go if you wanna break sunkens, you'll have to stand in the rain of spikes for a short while, while you take out the lings; you most often cannot take down the sunkens before the lings attack you, even a mediocre player will anticipate a sunken break and keep his lings close; Weapon upgrade is more efficient if you have good micro, against lurkers; that's why usually pro's go +1 weapon, because they have good control and they will almost never try to beak the sunkes early on, because at that level, it usually fails. | ||
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Vin{MBL}
5185 Posts
Poll: Which is better for breaking sunken lines? (Vote): +1 Attack (Vote): +1 Defense (Vote): This poll is stupid. -_-;; | ||
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imBLIND
United States2626 Posts
tiem is of the essence though. if they have a mini army of lings, then u might want to reconsider. its for like killing zergs be4 they have any lurks or mutas. | ||
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LxRogue
United States1415 Posts
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Excalibur_Z
United States12240 Posts
+1 attack is favored because of the extra damage output, the fact that it benefits all of your marines rather than just the ones getting hit, and most importantly the fact that your stimmed Marines will die in 2 hits regardless of their armor value. Then again, +1 armor is what July used in that famous sunken break game, and it seemed an invaluable decision there. Theorycraft versus experience. | ||
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5HITCOMBO
Japan2239 Posts
Of course, if you wait for an upgrade like that to break my sunken wall, I'll have lurkers  . | ||
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Guybrush
Spain4744 Posts
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InfeSteD
United States4658 Posts
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tKd_
United States2916 Posts
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joohyunee
Korea (South)1087 Posts
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azndsh
United States4447 Posts
+1 armor means each sunken does 19.5 instead of 20 damage +1 attack means each marines does 5 instead of 4 damage | ||
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_PulSe_
United States541 Posts
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joohyunee
Korea (South)1087 Posts
i did basic 12 rines 4 meds vs 1,2,3,4,5 sunks, and the rines were able to break through them pretty easily, with +1 attack killing the sunks significantly faster (no duh) alive rine count after the break was about the same, +1 armor had more rines alive (no duh) since it wasn't working too well, i tried 7, 8, and 10 sunks vs 18 rin +1 weapons managed to get past 7 and destroyed 4 from 8. +1 armor mangaged to get past 7, 8, destroyed 5 from 10 sunks conclusion: +1 weapon > +1 armor when there are less than or equal to 5 sunks in the sunk line +1 armor > +1 weapon when there are more than 5 sunks in the sunk line. why? I noticed something about the rines vs 7, 8, and 10 sunks. when the first volley of attacks from the sunks hit the rines, i noticed that more +1 armor rines survived than the +1 weapon rines, letting the medics heal the damaged ones and keeping them alive. From the first volley, many +1 weapons rines died from the first volley before they even started to do damage. It seems that more rines suriviving > +1 weapons. | ||
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Day[9]
United States7366 Posts
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Aepplet
Sweden2908 Posts
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QuietIdiot
7004 Posts
3 rax and +1 armor. All before the opponent gets lurkers to counter. Meds up first, hold them in a line and let multiple sunks try hitting 1-2 marines instead of being spread out. If anyone has that JJu vs Sync VOD on Mercury where he does break 8 sunks with a few meds and marines, post it asap, I know there was a thread a while ago.. | ||
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lololol
5198 Posts
On April 08 2007 16:31 joohyunee wrote: okay after the test... i did basic 12 rines 4 meds vs 1,2,3,4,5 sunks, and the rines were able to break through them pretty easily, with +1 attack killing the sunks significantly faster (no duh) alive rine count after the break was about the same, +1 armor had more rines alive (no duh) since it wasn't working too well, i tried 7, 8, and 10 sunks vs 18 rin +1 weapons managed to get past 7 and destroyed 4 from 8. +1 armor mangaged to get past 7, 8, destroyed 5 from 10 sunks conclusion: +1 weapon > +1 armor when there are less than or equal to 5 sunks in the sunk line +1 armor > +1 weapon when there are more than 5 sunks in the sunk line. why? I noticed something about the rines vs 7, 8, and 10 sunks. when the first volley of attacks from the sunks hit the rines, i noticed that more +1 armor rines survived than the +1 weapon rines, letting the medics heal the damaged ones and keeping them alive. From the first volley, many +1 weapons rines died from the first volley before they even started to do damage. It seems that more rines suriviving > +1 weapons. You should send medics first(or even better medics +1-2 marines), when going +attack, so they take the first wave of sunken hits, that way the sunkens will usually acquire different marines after they are all in their attack range, so more marines survive, making your attack much more efficient. From my testing +attack is able to kill up to 8 sunkens with less losses, but +armor is more forgiving about micro mistakes, since you need perfect formation, sending medics first in the right moment and manually ordering marines, which got stuck behind others and just don't attack, e.t.c. | ||
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MidGameHero
2 Posts
If your number of medics = number of sunks, you won't lose anything (or almost anything) If you use stimpack (and you obviously do), sunken needs 2 hits anyway, whether you are +1 Attack or +1 Defence. +1 attack adittionally gives you faster kills against everything zerg has and that means not so many creatures will get into combat with you. | ||
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catbert1
Korea (South)111 Posts
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
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XDawn
Canada4040 Posts
On April 08 2007 13:02 Excalibur_Z wrote: There are two sides to the scenario. +1 attack is favored because of the extra damage output, the fact that it benefits all of your marines rather than just the ones getting hit, and most importantly the fact that your stimmed Marines will die in 2 hits regardless of their armor value. Then again, +1 armor is what Chojja used in that famous sunken break game, and it seemed an invaluable decision there. Theorycraft versus experience. It was Julyzerg that used +1 against Chojja | ||
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-StrifeX-
United States529 Posts
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Excalibur_Z
United States12240 Posts
Ohhhhh yeah. haha. Thanks for that correction. | ||
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Vin{MBL}
5185 Posts
Strelok was terran and he did this build:- SUNKEN BREAKER BUILD
At time 6:24 the terran moved out with 15 marines, 5 medics and one firebat. By the time he reached the zerg base, the attack upgrade was finished and he attacked... basically totally raping the zerg ( who's spire had now morphed~). I don't play starcraft anymore but can someone please try this build and give me some feedback on it? Thanks. | ||
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[GiTM]-Ace
United States4935 Posts
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nortydog
Australia3067 Posts
On April 09 2007 12:17 Vin[MBL] wrote: thats slow for what he had, I can have 20 marines 4 firebats and 4 meds in that timeOk, I just watched a rep of BOSS vs TOT game 2 ( it can be found in petr's reppack thread) Strelok was terran and he did this build:- SUNKEN BREAKER BUILD
At time 6:24 the terran moved out with 15 marines, 5 medics and one firebat. By the time he reached the zerg base, the attack upgrade was finished and he attacked... basically totally raping the zerg ( who's spire had now morphed~). I don't play starcraft anymore but can someone please try this build and give me some feedback on it? Thanks. | ||
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dropthesky
Canada285 Posts
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Judicator
United States7270 Posts
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LuMiX
China5757 Posts
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dropthesky
Canada285 Posts
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[jOyO]
United States920 Posts
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Myrmidon
United States9452 Posts
On April 10 2007 07:40 [jOyO] wrote: What about a quick sunken break? im talking like 8 marines 2 medics or something. is that worth doing or is that considered cheese? It's more common to just go 1 rax acad -> 2 rax or 2 rax -> turbo gas acad than to commit to a dedicated sunk break build. 3 rax +1 would be considered more of an extreme build (and it's not, that much) than those two. Fast academy builds can punish early greedy 0-1 sunk + minimal ling Zergs, but more likely, what will just happen is that the Zerg will be prepared, so you just go take an expansion while you move out. It's a good balance of pressure and eco that is especially nice on maps like RH3 where the expo area is more wide-open, meaning that 1 rax CC is pretty risky and fast academy units force more sunks/lings than usual... which is as far as I know not playing Terran. ~_~ edit: Can you really get +1/+1 (and a reasonable number of marines) before Zerg has Lair units coming? It seems pretty late to me. And with that build, you won't even be able to begin your next e-bay upgrades until a long while afterwards. | ||
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-StrifeX-
United States529 Posts
Thanks if someone posts it =) | ||
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merz
Sweden2760 Posts
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Seraphim
United States4467 Posts
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5HITCOMBO
Japan2239 Posts
On April 10 2007 09:23 meRz wrote: I do +1 attack if I expect a muta-build, +1 armor if I expect a lurker build. The +1 armor will help if you fail and he's pressuring you with lurkers, since +1 armor means one more hit from lurkers. If you have +1 attack, it helps vs his muta harass after you've failed the rush. Please tell me you use stimpack. +1 attack is better, because you get two hits from a lurk regardless with stim. | ||
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LuMiX
China5757 Posts
On April 10 2007 06:14 dropthesky wrote: Metal, you have a rep of that? When I try my army comes out hella slow, and I think its a sexy strat Yes, however it is at my home computer. I am using my laptop at university right now xD | ||
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Vin{MBL}
5185 Posts
On April 10 2007 13:16 5HITCOMBO wrote: Please tell me you use stimpack. +1 attack is better, because you get two hits from a lurk regardless with stim. yea but if you stim then heal then run in you can take 3 hits ^^;; | ||
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intelinside
United States982 Posts
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TiQ.SinGi
Norway385 Posts
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
A marine does 6 damage, so every 6 marines with +1 attack is like one free marine. math: 6=7 A sunken does 20 damage to small units. A marine has 40hp, so every 2 marines with +1 armor a sunken kills you will have saved 1 marine. math: 2=3 or 6=9 BETTER TO GET ARMOR NUBE. | ||
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Return
Ivory Coast856 Posts
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
On April 10 2007 15:37 CharlieMurphy wrote: LET ME PAINT YOU A PICTURE: A marine does 6 damage, so every 6 marines with +1 attack is like one free marine. math: 6=7 A sunken does 20 damage to small units. A marine has 40hp, so every 2 marines with +1 armor a sunken kills you will have saved 1 marine. math: 2=3 or 6=9 BETTER TO GET ARMOR NUBE. this formula quickly breaks down when lings and medics are thrown into the equation. | ||
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nortydog
Australia3067 Posts
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Equinox_kr
United States7395 Posts
Weapon upgrade is the choice of pros O_O | ||
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Slayer91
Ireland23335 Posts
+1 armour is good vs them. Weapon up is good too but +1 armour is much better for all in. Both are viable if you use bats as well. | ||
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sOnagi[3.33]
Korea (South)886 Posts
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-StrifeX-
United States529 Posts
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Gabriel_reaper
Czech Republic41 Posts
for less micro and M&M - armor for more micro and M&M - attack (send medics first, surround medics with marines, so medics don't have to chase them) for M&M&B - attack (send stimmed bats first) | ||
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
On April 11 2007 05:19 thedeadhaji wrote: this formula quickly breaks down when lings and medics are thrown into the equation. Op didn't say anything about lings. Medics are a given, but with them that makes your marines live even longer because all they need is 20 hp. A marine even double targeted by 2 sunkens with +1 armor and a medic healing him will take an extra hit or two. My point is 12 rines and 3-4 medics can take 4 or so sunkens with +1 armor, with +1 attack they can't. | ||
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dropthesky
Canada285 Posts
ive been trying to find some of sataniks tvz all in rushs, but I havne't found any real good ones yet, also sync should have some good reps of sunk breaks I'd think^^ | ||
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imBLIND
United States2626 Posts
+1 weps better for everything +1 armor is only good for facing 1 thing at 1 time. so lings+lurks or lings+sunks will surely beat +1 armor. and if u think about it, +1 weps gives certain units like +2 or +4 dmg. that dmg > facing +1 armor. however in most cases, the ups just cancel each other out so..... | ||
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himurakenshin
Canada1845 Posts
On April 11 2007 15:57 imBLIND wrote: umm... +1 weps better for everything +1 armor is only good for facing 1 thing at 1 time. so lings+lurks or lings+sunks will surely beat +1 armor. and if u think about it, +1 weps gives certain units like +2 or +4 dmg. that dmg > facing +1 armor. however in most cases, the ups just cancel each other out so..... we are talking about ebay upgrades for rines, +1 wep gives you +1 for rines | ||
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CharlieMurphy
United States22895 Posts
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1sd2sd3sd
660 Posts
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niteReloaded
Croatia5282 Posts
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Conquest101
United States1395 Posts
I'm probably wrong, so someone with a bit more knowledge please shed some light. However, I always thought that for pure sunken breaking (like you come in with the mind-set, OK, I'm going to break his sunken wall and gg him) 3 rax, +1 armor was the way to go. | ||
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LuMiX
China5757 Posts
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LxRogue
United States1415 Posts
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