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ZvZ, 9 pool vs X mentality

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
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B-royal
Profile Joined May 2015
Belgium1330 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-05 18:53:42
March 05 2016 18:51 GMT
#1
Hi everyone,

I find myself struggling a lot in ZvZ primarily because I lack the experience to know what to do.

Since I've decided to stick to basically one build order for now (9 pool), I think it would be helpful to understand what my mentality should be versus all the other build orders of my opponent. If we get some good discussion going, this thread might also be very helpful to other beginners who are struggling in ZvZ. Later on I hope to expand this to other build orders as well (12 pool vs X, 12 hatch vs X,...)


Let's for now assume we're playing on a 2 player map like destination. In the future, it would also be interesting to analyze these same situations on a map like fighting spirit, but there's a lot of extra details that come into play on 4 player maps that are too erratic or random in my opinion.

Situation 1: 9 pool vs 9 pool

+ Show Spoiler +
There are two different scenarios that can occur here. Your opponent could go for speed first or lair first.

A. Speed first (opponent)

Since both players are playing identical, you can approach this in different ways depending on how confident you are in your micro and multitasking skills. If you are self-assured, you can be really aggressive and try to gain advantages this way.

Another way is to, once you establish both of you opened with 9 pool speed, try to make extra drones with the eventual goal of a second hatchery in your main base. The advantage of having extra larva can not be understated.

B. Lair first (opponent)

Since your opponent forgoes speed, he will lose map control and it will be very dangerous for him to move out. Most likely your opponent will therefor be defensive and block his ramp with lings. By doing this he can try to gain an advantage in drones. This goes hand in hand with skipping speed all together. In my opinion it makes more sense to ignore researching speed if you're going to be defensive and try to squeeze in more drones.

What to do in this situation? I think it is very critical to constantly observe what he's making. Is he making drones or lings? If he's getting really greedy busting his ramp with lings can work. However if he's being safe and adding lings, it will be very difficult to break the ramp and it can backfire very easily if he did decide to research speed anyway.

And what to do about the impending mutalisks? I'm not sure whether you are in trouble or not. I think the difference in spire timing is about 30 seconds which could mean that mutalisks are already in your base when yours spawn.

THUS: What should you do in this situation? Block his ramp while you try to squeeze in drones? Take a risk and make only zerglings with the intent of busting his ramp? What about the incoming mutalisks?


Situation 2: 9 pool vs overpool

+ Show Spoiler +
There are again 2 scenarios:

A. Speed first

You are behind since your opponent has one more drone, which really adds up. He can decide to keep it on gas (less likely) or utilize the extra mineral advantage to afford a second hatchery earlier.

What to do in this situation? First of all, it is quite difficult to tell whether your opponent is overpooling vs 9pooling since the only telltale sign is the amount of drones that he has vs the amount of lings that he has. It is possible to conjecture his opening on the timing of his lings, but it's possible for him to hold position with his lings in his main to deceive you.

In my opinion, your best option is to play defensive, block your own ramp and try to make drones (1-2, more if he's droning as well) as soon as possible. Making purely lings is a risk where you're hoping to get a get a favorable fight, which might not happen.

B. Lair first

This situation is very much equal to the situation of 9 pooling into lair first. The only difference is that he'll have a slightly better economy but his mutalisks will be noticeably later.

I think that in this case there shouldn't be an issue of mutalisks being in your base already when yours are about to spawn.


Situation 3: 9 pool vs 12 pool

+ Show Spoiler +
In my opinion you have one big opportunity as a 9 pool player vs 12 pool (much better on maps with lots of open space around the natural). The moment you have speed, your lings can win a straight up fight, which also happens to be an opportune moment as his larva advantage hasn't kicked in yet.

The other way to approach this is to play more defensive after threatening with speed (you want him to make lings and not drones), using ramps to your advantage. A 12 pool player only has a one drone advantage (10 vs 9) so you by making a few drones and getting a second hatchery as soon as possible in your main, you should be able to level the playing field. Then it will be a matter of being as aggressive as possible to prevent him from utilizing his second gas.


Situation 4: 9 pool vs 12 hatch

+ Show Spoiler +
As a 9 pooling player you are at big advantage depending on map distances. I believe destination is just large enough to allow your opponent to get a sunken up in his main with minimal losses. He will be forced to cancel his natural hatch. The result for him will be no speed, delayed tech and only one hatchery. He will be able to put up his second hatchery in his main relatively soon though.

I believe the best course of action is to after your initial aggression make a few drones and get a second hatchery in your main. I have in various situations tried getting hatcheries at my natural but they're often an unnecessary risk. They can be canceled relatively easy which is deadly (same when playing 9 pool vs 12 pool)! You need those extra larva or you will fall behind. Now you can use your earlier mutalisks to try to do damage or outright kill him, or secure your natural.


Situation 5: 9 pool vs overgas

+ Show Spoiler +
I have no experience yet with overgas, I don't know the timings or even the correct build order.


Situation 6: 9 pool vs 9 hatch

+ Show Spoiler +
Opening with 9 hatch gives your opponent 8 zerglings before your 6 zerglings arrive at his natural. You can not stop it. This opening typically aims to all-in with zerglings by building up an unexpected number of zerglings. As a 9 pool player you have map control for a short period of time. At the moment you are also at a drone advantage (9 versus 7). It is however very important to check what he's building with his larva. He has 2 hatcheries so can pump out a lot of drones relatively fast. However, since his tech is so delayed he will be forced to get spore colonies.

If he's building nothing but lings, you can make 2 or even 3 sunkens and continue building lings. You just need to hold his all-in. Your mutas should be able to end the game.


Final remark but very important: I hope a lot of high level zergs such as trutacz, eonzerg, julia,... can share their experience with us on this incredibly difficult match up. This way it might also be possible to compile all the information and add it to liquipedia! Also it's not necessary to comment on everything, if you want you can just share your thoughts about one situation.
new BW-player (~E rank fish) twitch.tv/crispydrone || What plays 500 games a season but can't get better? => http://imgur.com/a/pLzf9 <= ||
Bakuryu
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
Germany1065 Posts
March 05 2016 20:11 GMT
#2
since im not a high level zerg, im not sharing my experience here. :D
B-royal
Profile Joined May 2015
Belgium1330 Posts
March 05 2016 20:24 GMT
#3
Haha bakuryu you definitely are high level, please do share your knowledge. Everyone can share their experience, I just added the note hoping to also get some responses from our most famous zerg players.
new BW-player (~E rank fish) twitch.tv/crispydrone || What plays 500 games a season but can't get better? => http://imgur.com/a/pLzf9 <= ||
Scarbo
Profile Joined January 2012
294 Posts
March 05 2016 20:42 GMT
#4
Great post, thank you!
Ty2
Profile Blog Joined March 2013
United States1434 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-05 22:16:02
March 05 2016 20:58 GMT
#5
--- Nuked ---
Writer
Atom[Bomb]
Profile Joined July 2015
Sweden108 Posts
March 06 2016 02:09 GMT
#6
Nice post B-royal
I will try to write some help/advice/guidelines on certain ZvZ situations.
Atom[Bomb]
Profile Joined July 2015
Sweden108 Posts
March 06 2016 13:08 GMT
#7
I think 9 pool is heavily dependant on ling micro, you will need to do at least some damage to the opponent.

You MUST NOT lose the zerglings non-favourably, because those are what you need to stay alive until mutalisks.
One bad engagement and it's good night(I mean it).
Therefore, I believe 9 pool is an opening for when your (ling) micro is superior to your opponent.

If you don't produce zerglings non-stop, you will become defensive and need a sunken(Lings are the only advantage you got)
A sunken costs 125 minerals and 66 minerals per minute, it's not a great investment, it's a last resort... (You need the minerals for your expand)

Once you built a few mutalisks you may drone up if the situation allows.

Small tactic vs 9 pool:
Versus 9 pool, you will need to pull back 2 of your initial 6 lings to defend.
You can use the remaining 4 lings for offense.
Atom[Bomb]
Profile Joined July 2015
Sweden108 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-06 13:17:39
March 06 2016 13:17 GMT
#8
Here are 31 zvz 9pool replays I played today.
puu.sh
B-royal
Profile Joined May 2015
Belgium1330 Posts
March 06 2016 18:23 GMT
#9
On March 06 2016 22:17 Atom[Bomb] wrote:
Here are 31 zvz 9pool replays I played today.
puu.sh


Thanks for the contribution Atom. Btw 31 ZvZ's? :D
new BW-player (~E rank fish) twitch.tv/crispydrone || What plays 500 games a season but can't get better? => http://imgur.com/a/pLzf9 <= ||
Atom[Bomb]
Profile Joined July 2015
Sweden108 Posts
March 07 2016 04:28 GMT
#10
Yes, 31 replays of ZvZ with 9 pool opening.
B-royal
Profile Joined May 2015
Belgium1330 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-08 22:38:20
March 08 2016 22:37 GMT
#11
I've been watching some more ZvZ replays and I came across an interesting game. The game was Zelot vs some random korean on fighting spirit. Zelot opened with overpool while his opponent opened with the typical 12 pool into natural hatch.

Zelot was lucky with his overlord scouting and discovered his opponent on first try. He reacted by getting lair first instead of speed. He hid his initial 6 lings on the map and continued producing lings, blocking his ramp. The exact reason for this is not too clear too me, besides hoping to get some drones in a lucky back-stab (which he did attempt later on in the game). His opponent scouted him blocking his ramp and most likely realized Zelot was going for fast mutalisks. He responded by getting more drones and evo chamber.

Zelot did not squeeze in any drones at all, he also did not attempt to get a second hatchery. He just made mutalisks which were able to snipe drones/spores and ended the game. I was really surprised at how the game looked completely over for Zelot at one moment (2 spores at both bases, spire almost done, natural expansion, plenty of drones) while only a minute or two later he was completely dominating the game.

My conclusions from this is:

- If you are 9 pooling or overpooling versus a 12 pooling opponent and you discover your opponent on your first try, you can decide to go lair first. When 9 pooling, your speed will still finish around the exact time as the 12 pooling player! So you can still be out on the map with lings if you want to. Going lair first forces your opponent to go for evolution chamber and spores. By not investing into an extra hatchery and by not attempting to get a second hatchery at your natural you are free to harass your opponent's economy and eventually snipe spores when you get around 8 mutalisks!
new BW-player (~E rank fish) twitch.tv/crispydrone || What plays 500 games a season but can't get better? => http://imgur.com/a/pLzf9 <= ||
B-royal
Profile Joined May 2015
Belgium1330 Posts
March 10 2016 23:36 GMT
#12
Update: I have been thinking about researching burrow in a select few cases.

I'm sure many of us have had the problem with having a superior mutalisk flock but your opponent has spores to defend his bases. This puts you in an awkward spot where if he manages to sneak out with a group of his mutas he can deal devastating damage to your economy. This is especially the case in situations where you're 1 basing (9 pool/overpool) vs something like 12 pool.

What about researching burrow in this case? Zerg's only detector is the overlord so there's no way for him to touch your drones from that point on, you can just burrow if he's threatening your drone line while you're out of position.

I realize burrow is 100/100 but I don't think that's an unduly amount in this situation. It's essentially one mutalisk, but there's a lot of inefficient usages of scourge in ZvZ (one pair is roughly equal to the gas cost of burrow) so I don't see why it would be impossible.

PS: I really hope other people show some more interest in this thread. I tend to refrain from posting a lot of strategy threads because I feel like the strategy section is quite dormant... let's change this!
new BW-player (~E rank fish) twitch.tv/crispydrone || What plays 500 games a season but can't get better? => http://imgur.com/a/pLzf9 <= ||
Atom[Bomb]
Profile Joined July 2015
Sweden108 Posts
March 11 2016 15:18 GMT
#13
Hiding the initial lings like zelot did is typically just a "sneaky" strat, hopeing to catch your opponent off guard.

Researching burrow IS quite an investment.
100 minerals and 100 gas is a significant amount of resources in the early game stages.

Once the game reaches mid/lategame, you may be able to afford money to research burrow.



We should play some more and try out these ideas.
B-royal
Profile Joined May 2015
Belgium1330 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-14 15:02:07
March 11 2016 16:26 GMT
#14
Yes we should try it out . In the meantime I made a small table for some basic ZvZ timings. I find it very helpful to memorize absolute timings because after a while you start to get a feel for the timing based on certain checkpoints in the game (thus without the help of a timer).

[image loading]

Some additional information:
- At enemy base means = literally at the hatchery of your opponent's main.
- Slow zerglings take about 40 seconds to travel between mains
- Mutalisks take about 25 seconds to travel between mains
- 10 hatch doesn't go to lair since it takes drones off gas. It only researches speed.
- Lair takes 1:05 min to research
- Spire takes 1:15 min to build
- Mutalisks take approximately 30 seconds to build

The sum of these latter three means that 2:50 minutes after lair starts, mutalisks are ready or in other words at around 4:45 minutes is the earliest time you'd have to build an evolution chamber to get spores on time (against 9 pool with lair first).
new BW-player (~E rank fish) twitch.tv/crispydrone || What plays 500 games a season but can't get better? => http://imgur.com/a/pLzf9 <= ||
B-royal
Profile Joined May 2015
Belgium1330 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-19 19:50:39
March 19 2016 00:42 GMT
#15
Update: I will be doing some more extensive tests regarding this subject, reexamining the positions (more iterations).

Method: I let drones mine for 10 minutes and then check the amount of minerals mined and compare. To get the drones to start mining at the exact same time, I put the game on the slowest setting and position them in an oblique line, each successive one slightly further from its patch. In this way they start mining at the same time. I've also found that letting each drone mine, stopping it as soon as it holds a mineral chunk and returning cargo for all drones at the same time works just as well.

But here is a rough analysis of the differences in mining for the different mineral patches on fighting spirit:

GREEN = GOOD mineral patch
BLUE = AVERAGE mineral patch
RED = BAD mineral patch

Also forgive my bad photoshop skills haha.

1 o'clock:

As you can see, the 1 o'clock position has 4 good mineral patches, but also 2 bad mineral patches. Especially mineral patch number 8 (from top to bottom) gives the best mining but the difference is negligible compared to the other good mining patches.

[image loading]

5 o'clock

This position gave an identical result for mining efficiency as the 1 o'clock position.

6 o'clock:

This position only has 2 good mineral patches, number 3 and 5 with the latter being marginally better than the first (around 50 more minerals mined from over 10 minutes). But all the other mineral patches are basically equal.

Update: after doing some more iterations, this actually gave the same result as the 11 o'clock position

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


11 o'clock:

This position has 3 good mineral patches. Patch number 7 (top to bottom) is better than both 3 and 5. All the other patches are average and essentially equal.

[image loading]



new BW-player (~E rank fish) twitch.tv/crispydrone || What plays 500 games a season but can't get better? => http://imgur.com/a/pLzf9 <= ||
Saline
Profile Joined February 2008
United States73 Posts
March 25 2016 00:39 GMT
#16
B-royal: much appreciated on the minerals. I'm under the impression most people don't pay attention to fast versus slow minerals, but I've always been keenly aware of them. What's interesting is that the minerals that are fast for zerg and terran are wildly different. The fastest mineral patch that exists for Terran on common maps is the top mineral patch at the 9:00 position, with the 2nd fastest being the 3rd from the bottom, again at the 9:00--if you get this spot, you are one lucky duck.

With zerg, often the 2nd from the bottom patch is the fastest (as in your first screenshot).
Jukado
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
805 Posts
Last Edited: 2016-03-26 00:15:25
March 25 2016 23:38 GMT
#17
Hi B-royal, I like your style, work ethic etc. You have the right attitude and are sharing stuff on top of all that, pretty awesome.
In post #11 about Zelot vs someone unnamed, you make several conclusions from just 1 game. I think you're a bit inexperienced to do this at the moment, and several of the things are wrong. My advice is just keep on keeping on because it looks like you are learning really efficiently already by watching and studying example games etc. You're at the early stage of learning a matchup so the rate of new stuff being absorbed is high, and the set of conclusions you have is going to keep developing quite quickly in line with that. Watch vods from 2012 of games on Neo/Chain Reaction is a good tip.
I dont really want to get into 9 pool at the moment for lack of time and I prefer 12 pool, so Im not going to add much to this thread Im afraid, but I really like your posts and wanted to atleast give a little something. I wrote a very generic post not that long ago relating to ZvZ so I'll just copy paste that. You already chose 9 pool but if in the future you consider trying out 12 pool a bit more, it might be a nice start point.
+ Show Spoiler +

ZvZ build order (Known as the 10 drone build, its a 12 pool style):
12 pool
11 gas
11 hatch at nat
You get lair first then speed. You take 1 drone off gas after lair starts
You make lots of lings. VS 1 base players, your lings force them to spend larvae on lings not muta. Then buy spores.

Not sure how accurate my notes are but will just paste what I have from the vod of Crazy Hydra vs Hydra Neo Chain Reaction:
12 pool then gas then drone
11 hatch @nat
11 lair
14 send 2 drones to nat
14 overlord?
15 spire
15 sunken+lings
22 overlord?
Ling wall formation
23 second gas
Hydra attacks with lings. After, crazy hydra is on 18, Hydra is on 16
4 mutas pop
29/34 one muta, 1 scourge, then overlord
1 muta, then 1 scourge, then 1 scourge, then 1 muta, then 1 muta, then 1 muta,
More of each (not sure of numbers)
Overlord
37/50 is reached.

Ofcourse the notes above are partly specific to the game.


VS 12 hat examples:
Crazy Hydra vs Hydra on Neo Chain Reaction 12 pool vs 12 hatch (watch Crazy Hydra @3 in brown)
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/106617_Crazy_vs_Hydra/vod

Hydra vs Modesty on Chain Reaction 12 pool vs 12 hatch (watch Hydra @3 in pale yellow)
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/90864_Hydra_vs_Modesty/vod

VS 9 pool 1 base muta
Soulkey vs Calm on Chain Reaction 12 pool vs 9 pool 1 base muta, Soulkey uses spores
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/korean/games/98776_Calm_vs_Soulkey/vod

I havent double checked if these example games are indeed examples.
Star Tale Public Domain project. Maps: (2)Gates Of Memphis, (2)Marshmallow Toast, (4)Bubbles, (4)Clay Fields, (6)Numbskull Desert. Also the Vaylu Public Domain Tileset. Also Ramp Palettes, Brood War guides and some fun stuff. Links in my profile
Atom[Bomb]
Profile Joined July 2015
Sweden108 Posts
March 27 2016 23:38 GMT
#18
Nice mineral patch analysis I was curious about exactly this the other day.
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