• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EST 04:52
CET 10:52
KST 18:52
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview8RSL Season 3 - Playoffs Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups C & D Preview0RSL Season 3 - RO16 Groups A & B Preview2TL.net Map Contest #21: Winners12
Community News
ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career !9Weekly Cups (Dec 8-14): MaxPax, Clem, Cure win4Weekly Cups (Dec 1-7): Clem doubles, Solar gets over the hump1Weekly Cups (Nov 24-30): MaxPax, Clem, herO win2BGE Stara Zagora 2026 announced15
StarCraft 2
General
Micro Lags When Playing SC2? ComeBackTV's documentary on Byun's Career ! When will we find out if there are more tournament Weekly Cups (Dec 8-14): MaxPax, Clem, Cure win RSL Revival - 2025 Season Finals Preview
Tourneys
Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament $100 Prize Pool - Winter Warp Gate Masters Showdow $5,000+ WardiTV 2025 Championship Winter Warp Gate Amateur Showdown #1 RSL Offline Finals Info - Dec 13 and 14!
Strategy
Custom Maps
Map Editor closed ?
External Content
Mutation # 504 Retribution Mutation # 503 Fowl Play Mutation # 502 Negative Reinforcement Mutation # 501 Price of Progress
Brood War
General
Klaucher discontinued / in-game color settings Anyone remember me from 2000s Bnet EAST server? BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ How Rain Became ProGamer in Just 3 Months FlaSh on: Biggest Problem With SnOw's Playstyle
Tourneys
[BSL21] LB QuarterFinals - Sunday 21:00 CET Small VOD Thread 2.0 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL21] WB SEMIFINALS - Saturday 21:00 CET
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Game Theory for Starcraft Current Meta Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread General RTS Discussion Thread Nintendo Switch Thread Mechabellum PC Games Sales Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
Mafia Game Mode Feedback/Ideas Survivor II: The Amazon Sengoku Mafia TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
Russo-Ukrainian War Thread The Games Industry And ATVI US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine YouTube Thread
Fan Clubs
White-Ra Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TL+ Announced Where to ask questions and add stream?
Blogs
The (Hidden) Drug Problem in…
TrAiDoS
I decided to write a webnov…
DjKniteX
James Bond movies ranking - pa…
Topin
Thanks for the RSL
Hildegard
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1725 users

TvZ: Two "All-ins" you need to know!

Forum Index > Brood War Strategy
Post a Reply
Normal
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-09 11:28:13
April 05 2014 03:40 GMT
#1
[image loading]
Prepped and ready!




Overview

This is a companion guide to my prior work, which gives a rough outline on doing a +1 5 rax into mech switch. Of course, there are many ways to go mech switch. You can do the old school 3 rax then factory build, which works just fine, especially against 2-hatch stuff, or you can do what Flash did on La Mancha and place three factories after going 5 rax. So, basically, there's a lot of room for variance, as long as you're thinking ahead (which takes planning for most people) and you're not playing like a scared little bitch.

So, I'm going to talk about two timing attacks that I really like (and sometimes hate when playing against when I haven't been practicing) and how you can use them as secondary strategies. So first, what do I mean by "secondary strategy"? Well, let's say you're playing on a map you're not as familiar with as your normal set of maps, or it really doesn't fit your strategy. If that occurs, you may need to alter your strategy somewhat. For example, if you play on Fighting Spirit, you may be used to having a really close third base with gas that is really easy to defend. Then you play on Grand Line and you have mineral base for your third. This doesn't mean you have to throw your strategy out of the window. You can take the far-away other main as your third or fourth depending on the situation.

It never hurts to practice alternatives to your more "standard" strategy, though. The two strategies I'm going to discuss are timing attacks, which some people might consider "all-in" or "cheesy". Regardless, you should never let someone's emotional feelings towards a strategy prevent you from playing the way you want. That should just go without saying, but sometimes people get into this mindset where they tell themselves "If I don't play standard, I will not be a good player, and I want to be good.", and you should absolutely not fall into that mindset. Maybe you just are struggling with TvZ and want to try something new, or you play Zerg and hate ZvZ, and just want some decent cheese strategy to kill other Zergs. Well... cool.



Ayumi

[image loading]
+ Show Spoiler [actual] +

[image loading]


The Ayumi build is a timing attack designed to kill Zerg before Lair units come into play. Your target is to hit the Zerg's sunken colonies by 6:30 into the game. You could easily accomplish this goal by doing some 1-base play, but the Ayumi build opens more "standard", so it is more difficult to read.

The build:
  • 9/10 - Supply Depot
  • 10/10 - Barracks
  • 12/18 - Go scout
  • 15/18 - Supply Depot
  • 20/26 - Command Center
  • 24/26 - Supply Depot
  • 29/34 - Add three barracks all at the same time, so send out three SCVs, and start putting down barracks
  • 35/44 - Refinery
  • 37/44 - Supply Depot (Stop producing SCVs at this point.)
  • 38 - Academy
  • @ 100% refinery - Transfer SCVs to your natural
  • 44/52 - Supply Depot

At this point, you cut SCV production entirely. Don't even think about making an SCV. Your marine production, however, should not stop. You should always be making marines until you have the academy, and then you make the medics, then more marines. You may note that your natural has almost no SCVs. You may want to maynard about 6 SCVs from your main to your natural.

  • - Academy completed - Research stim + make 4 medics simultaneously (you push out when you get the medics)
  • - Build your comsat add-ons
  • - Stim finishes - Research marine range


After you move out, you can build an engineering bay and resume SCV production, and in fact, I highly recommend you do in case you need to transition into a later-game build. The first time I tried this style of build out, my marines attack at 7:00 into the game. Yuck. I tweaked a few things and cut some corners to get that time down to 6:30. The clock is very important here, so I highly recommend trying this on an empty map, or versus the AI, and try to trim your time down as much as possible.

How this works: Sunken colonies are good against small numbers of marines. As soon as the marine numbers grow past 3 marines + 1 medic per sunken colony, the advantage shifts to the Terran player. If the Zerg has three sunken colonies, then you'll have about 14 marines, or 4.6 marines per sunken, plus four medics, which is enough to easily break through the defense, and still have enough stuff to continue attacking. This build will take some players by surprise because a sunken bust is typically executed from a one-base play, so then there's that.

[image loading]
It's important when doing the actual sunken bust to set your units up parallel to the sunken line so they can all hit at once. Hit your hotkeys (1t2t for stim, then 1a2a) and go for it. Once you engage, make sure to start targeting each sunken colony individually and focus fire on each one until they are all gone. If you have a large enough number of marines/medics, you won't even need micro because you can just crush the sunken line

Some situations:

Mutalisks pop out and head for your base: Do not run your forces back. You basically will want to base-trade with the Zerg, because if the mutalisks are out that early, it means the Zerg went 2-hatch muta, and only has enough larvae for six mutalisks. This means that if you build turrets in your main and re-rally all your barracks to defend your main, you can lift your natural and float it back to your main. The command center may actually die in mid-air, but I'm willing to bet it will get to safety before it explodes. Once you have three turrets and a handful of medic/marine, six mutalisks will be powerless to win the game. Meanwhile, your forces at the Zerg base should kill off all the drones, which will put the Zerg in an impossible situation to win.

Mutalisks pop out and you can't attack the sunkens: A little bit of patience here will get through this situation. Just wait for some reinforcements, then go for it. Normally, your attack should hit right before the mutas can stop you, but if you botch your timing, or get messed up by zerglings, then things can go awry. Be sure to scan the Zerg natural always before attacking it. He may have made like 3 more sunken colonies, and if there are that many plus mutalisks, then you can't break that. However, it doesn't mean the game is over. You'll actually be in a quite good position, provided that you don't freak out and try to attack too soon. Just start teching up and getting your factory, then starport, then science facility. If the Zerg took a third base somewhere, send a very small force to go kill it, like 3 marines, 1 medic, maybe 1 firebat. If the Zerg tries to defend it with the mutalisks, scan the sunken line again, and if the coast is clear, just break it.

Zerg went lurkers: This is a more complex scenario since you can't bust the Zerg natural without tanks/science vessels. You can, however, box the Zerg into a corner for a very long time, but you'll have to transition into a long-game strategy. Even still, if you go for tech/expansion/mech switch, you'll be in good shape in the late game since the Zerg will be hard-pressed to take a third and fourth base, depending on the map. If you scan their natural and see only one lurker, it's a trick. It's a bunch of stacked lurkers.

3-hatch mass speedlings: If you scout this, then you're almost guaranteed to win, since firebats are really strong against zerglings. Just make sure when you move out, you have 3 firebats with your force. The next step, however, is to make sure you don't get backstabbed, so you'll want to produce more firebats and place them on your ramp. Ideally, you would want to do 2 medics in front and 2 firebats in back, which actually is quite easy to do with this build since you have 4 barracks.




6fact

[image loading]

This is exactly what it sounds like: you build 6 factories, then go attack. I should just end on that note, but for shits and giggles, we'll dive into some more specific parameters involved in executing this build successfully.

The build:

  • 9/10 - Supply Depot
  • 14/18 - Command Center


Yes, I'm opening it with a 14cc. You can open with your standard build though:

  • 9/10 - Depot
  • 10/10 - Barracks + go scout
  • 15/10 - Supply Depot
  • 18 - Command Center + refinery


+ Show Spoiler [omg zerglings] +
Now, I'm making the assumption that the Zerg went 12 hatch. However, you'll still want to build a bunker after you take your expansion. You won't need more than 4 marines unless you're facing a 9pool opening. Against a 9pool, you'll need to take your natural a bit later, but again, against a low-economy Zerg, this is not a problem. A low-economy Zerg playing off 2 hatcheries cannot compete with you in terms of raw production power, so they will either be rushing for lair, or building a lot of speedlings, and some cases, both.

[image loading]
You'll sometimes need to play it safe if the Zerg is being particularly aggressive. This usually just applies to 9 pool + gas aggression with a lot of lings. Overpool is kind of uncommon in ZvT, but it does happen, but is not really "aggressive", and you can build the CC on the low ground. The same rule applies to 12 pool, but since it is a pool-first build, don't forget to get a bunker

However, let's talk about the zergling situation first in the early game. If there is a threat from zerglings, you may want to build your CC in your main, and lift it off towards your natural once you've piled up enough marines to move out. However, this changes almost nothing else about your build. You'll still take your natural, then get a bunker. You'll still get your refinery with your CC. And you'll go to the next step:


  • @100 gas - Factory
  • 23/26 - Supply Depot
  • @next 100 gas - 2nd Factory
  • Factory finishes - Machine shop + armory + academy
  • 2nd Factory finishes - Take the refinery at your natural


I recommend making a vulture from your second factory before adding a machine shop to it.

  • 40/44 - Supply Depot
  • Machine shop finishes - Research spider mines
  • Other machine shop finishes - Research goliath range


Note about engineering bay: Versus 2-hatch muta, you can build your engineering bay after your first factory, and then place the second one + armory. Also, versus 2-hatch muta, get your goliath range upgrade FIRST, then spider mines.

+ Show Spoiler [tech path] +

vs 3-Hatch Muta - spider mines > goliath range > siege mode
vs 3-Hatch Lurker - spider mines > goliath range > siege mode
vs 2-Hatch Lurker - spider mines > siege mode > goliath range
vs 2-Hatch Muta - goliath range > spider mines > vulture speed > siege mode

Vulture speed almost always will come last, but spider mines are essential for killing zerglings and lurkers. Versus 2 hatch lurker, a Zerg player might switch into a 2-hatch hydra all-in, so you'll need siege mode, but then also goliath range. You'll still need turrets to protect yourself from lurker drops.

Against mutalisks, you will definitely need goliaths and turrets, but also something to defend against zerglings, because a muta/ling timing attack is not uncommon. DO NOT engage the mutalisks with pure goliaths until you have at least 6 goliaths, otherwise they need to stay around your turrets, and they cannot become isolated, because you need to build up the number of goliaths to where the mutalisks become useless.


You should make vultures until the armory finishes, then switch to goliaths.

You'll be able to easily afford 4 factories around 6-7 minutes into the game. You can add the other two factories once you have the extra money and then you can cut SCV production so that one of the factories can continuously produce vultures. The other ones will produce almost exclusively goliaths. The two factories with machine shops will produce only tanks.

Timings:

- 100 food: This is generally too early to attack. If you have vulture speed, you can send vultures out onto the map to harass and scout stuff out. You'll quickly get a good idea of what the Zerg is building to counter-act your build. Be sure to also scan their lair to see if it's been morphed into a hive, and if it has morphed, you should tech to science vessels to kill defilers and guardians.

- 150 food: Your +1 attack and +1 armor should be finished, so this is a good time to attack unless your opponent has a massive amount of hydralisks roaming the map, which would be around 40 or more. Generally, 10-12 tanks should be able to clean them up if you have goliaths to buffer the damage. However, if there are too many hydras, just expand and go up to 200 food.

- 200 food: You should only go at 200 if you can't at 150. If that's the case, tech up to science vessels and add another armory. Then you can inch your army into position to take another base, because your main will mine out.


How this works: The more mech units you have, the more exponentially powerful your army becomes. Early on, you have to face a number of threats, but most of them can be dealt with using spider mines and goliaths. Goliaths are surprisingly good against lurkers once you have enough of them, so you can be safe getting goliath range first, even if the Zerg player opens with lurkers off 3 hatcheries. Against a 2-hatch lurker, goliaths can hold off a frontal attack if there are mines placed, but if a lot of lings come piling in, and the lurkers burrow in your natural, it can just turn into a nightmare, so I would recommend having siege tanks to hit the lurkers before they can burrow down, because you won't have a science facility yet for detection.

Generally, this will crush any low-economy Zerg play, including 2-hatch muta, 2-hatch lurker, and is also very strong against 3-hatch muta or lurker. The weakness comes from the Zerg player going 3-hatch hydra and taking a quick third expansion so they can produce a huge number of hydralisks.


Zerg counters:

Mass ling: A-move through it

Lurker/ling: A-move through it

Guardians: A-move through it

Muta/ling: A-move through it

Defiler/lurker: This can get annoying, because if lurkers are burrowed, none of your units can hit them. This is why it is important to scan the Zerg's main for hive to see if they are getting defilers so you can get science vessels to irradiate the defilers. You'll want to concentrate your irradiates on the defilers only, and let your tanks deal with the lurkers. If there is a lurker under swarm, just kill the defiler and wait for the dark swarm to dissipate so you can kill the lurker. If there are only a couple of lurkers, you can also run vultures into them and place mines around them, which will kill the lurkers.

Mass hydra: Against mass hydra, you'll need to be a bit more deliberate in your movements. If possible, have your army hug the walls and cliffs to prevent the hydras from attack from multiple directions. Occasionally scan ahead to see where the hydras are going. Try to keep reinforcing your army and placing mines ahead of your forces as you move along.

Backstab: Against a small backstab, you should be able to hold it off with very few units. If the Zerg commits a huge force to backstabbing, don't turn back to defend your base. Just re-rally all your factories so that the units don't spawn into the Zerg's attack. If it is a big hydra or ultra/ling attack, start putting tanks on your cliff, and do everything possible to block your ramp, placing mines at the bottom of the ramp, and at the top of it. Your main army should continue attacking until the Zerg's bases are gone.




Conclusion



I'm not a really big fan of "how-to-win" strategy guides, and this certainly isn't one. Both styles of play I mentioned can have a follow-up phase where you do something else. I just intended both of these to be a big a one-punch knock-out, however, there are mitigating factors which may stop you from just simply winning outright, so it's important that when you practice these kinds of builds, first you practice them to see how they pan out over the course of many games, then whatever feels right afterwards.

But like I said at the beginning, playing with a timing attack does not make you a "bad player". If you know what to do to follow-up in many different situations, then you're actually a quite decent player. But if your brain completely fails, just throw down three starports and start making wraiths.

Of course, I always encourage creativity, but also to be consistent. Consistency is key to winning games, so whatever you have to do to be consistent, do it. Some people write down build orders in a notebook, some people practice over and over on an empty map. You could even tattoo the build orders on your arm, but I don't recommend it.

Of course, don't forget to have fun!
+
"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
MinscandBoo
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
252 Posts
April 05 2014 05:09 GMT
#2
dang nina, beasting out these guides. ones of these builds feel awfully familiar for some reason.... Thanks for doing this! Now if only I was able to play some Brood War >.>
Swords! Not words!
amazingxkcd
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
April 05 2014 05:39 GMT
#3
So we switching to terran, nina?
The world is burning and you rather be on this terrible website discussing video games and your shallow feelings
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
April 05 2014 09:09 GMT
#4
On April 05 2014 14:09 MinscandBoo wrote:
dang nina, beasting out these guides. ones of these builds feel awfully familiar for some reason.... Thanks for doing this! Now if only I was able to play some Brood War >.>


Why can't you play?

On April 05 2014 14:39 amazingxkcd wrote:
So we switching to terran, nina?


I figured someone would ask something of this sort, but no.
"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
Reuental
Profile Joined July 2009
United States457 Posts
April 05 2014 09:18 GMT
#5
What would you define as a very quick 3rd nina? As I find the 6 fact build particularly brutal.
I'm a Crab made of men.
Cryoc
Profile Joined July 2011
Germany911 Posts
April 05 2014 09:49 GMT
#6
Nice work, but do you have a replay for your ayumi build vs 2 Hatch and 3 Hatch play? Because from the looks of it, it is just a standard 2 Rax Academy build where you add 2 Rax before an ebay. And because the additional Rax are so late, you probably don't get much use out of it before mutalisks are done. So the Zergs who die to this probably would have died to the standard 2 Rax timing anyway. And if they reacted correct and stalled for mutalisks they can just pick of reinforcements on the way to your base and you probably don't have turrets because your ebay is very late.
Also this build shouldn't be able to hit a pre-muta-timing versus 2 Hatch play at all except for maybe on python close position. For such a timing to work versus 2 Hatch play, you have to build your acad right after you started building your gas, so that you get medics as soon as possible.
http://www.twitch.tv/cryoc
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
April 05 2014 11:32 GMT
#7
On April 05 2014 18:49 Cryoc wrote:
Nice work, but do you have a replay for your ayumi build vs 2 Hatch and 3 Hatch play? Because from the looks of it, it is just a standard 2 Rax Academy build where you add 2 Rax before an ebay. And because the additional Rax are so late, you probably don't get much use out of it before mutalisks are done. So the Zergs who die to this probably would have died to the standard 2 Rax timing anyway. And if they reacted correct and stalled for mutalisks they can just pick of reinforcements on the way to your base and you probably don't have turrets because your ebay is very late.
Also this build shouldn't be able to hit a pre-muta-timing versus 2 Hatch play at all except for maybe on python close position. For such a timing to work versus 2 Hatch play, you have to build your acad right after you started building your gas, so that you get medics as soon as possible.


What would you recommend for barracks timing?
"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
Cryoc
Profile Joined July 2011
Germany911 Posts
April 05 2014 14:03 GMT
#8
On April 05 2014 20:32 ninazerg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2014 18:49 Cryoc wrote:
Nice work, but do you have a replay for your ayumi build vs 2 Hatch and 3 Hatch play? Because from the looks of it, it is just a standard 2 Rax Academy build where you add 2 Rax before an ebay. And because the additional Rax are so late, you probably don't get much use out of it before mutalisks are done. So the Zergs who die to this probably would have died to the standard 2 Rax timing anyway. And if they reacted correct and stalled for mutalisks they can just pick of reinforcements on the way to your base and you probably don't have turrets because your ebay is very late.
Also this build shouldn't be able to hit a pre-muta-timing versus 2 Hatch play at all except for maybe on python close position. For such a timing to work versus 2 Hatch play, you have to build your acad right after you started building your gas, so that you get medics as soon as possible.


What would you recommend for barracks timing?

All 4 Rax before gas. I did a liquipedia article on that a while ago. You can look at it here. Of course that is only feasible versus 3 Hatch play.
http://www.twitch.tv/cryoc
oDieN[Siege]
Profile Joined November 2009
United States2905 Posts
April 05 2014 17:14 GMT
#9
ninazerg, I've seen like 2 pretty good guides you wrote so far on TL.. but I must ask, what is your rank?
말크 : ^_^~ NeO)GabuAt, vGODieN
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
April 05 2014 19:07 GMT
#10
On April 05 2014 23:03 Cryoc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 05 2014 20:32 ninazerg wrote:
On April 05 2014 18:49 Cryoc wrote:
Nice work, but do you have a replay for your ayumi build vs 2 Hatch and 3 Hatch play? Because from the looks of it, it is just a standard 2 Rax Academy build where you add 2 Rax before an ebay. And because the additional Rax are so late, you probably don't get much use out of it before mutalisks are done. So the Zergs who die to this probably would have died to the standard 2 Rax timing anyway. And if they reacted correct and stalled for mutalisks they can just pick of reinforcements on the way to your base and you probably don't have turrets because your ebay is very late.
Also this build shouldn't be able to hit a pre-muta-timing versus 2 Hatch play at all except for maybe on python close position. For such a timing to work versus 2 Hatch play, you have to build your acad right after you started building your gas, so that you get medics as soon as possible.


What would you recommend for barracks timing?

All 4 Rax before gas. I did a liquipedia article on that a while ago. You can look at it here. Of course that is only feasible versus 3 Hatch play.


Oh yeah... I've actually seen some people do this and I was wondering about this. The funny thing is, I was originally thinking of this build, but didn't see how it could hit before the 2-hatch timing. I've also seen something similar where they get the gas with one rax, get an academy, then throw down three barracks all at once.
"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
puppykiller
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States3137 Posts
April 06 2014 01:21 GMT
#11
Nice write up but 8 Rax and 2 fact are definitely the best aggressive builds in tvz imo.
Why would I play sctoo when I can play BW?
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
April 06 2014 03:12 GMT
#12
On April 06 2014 10:21 puppykiller wrote:
Nice write up but 8 Rax and 2 fact are definitely the best aggressive builds in tvz imo.


The best is to go 8 rax, then follow it with 2 fact speed vultures, expo then go 6 fact.
"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
puppykiller
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States3137 Posts
April 06 2014 03:46 GMT
#13
Haha true dat.
Why would I play sctoo when I can play BW?
Scarecrow
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
Korea (South)9172 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-06 05:06:24
April 06 2014 04:44 GMT
#14
I remember copying a different version of the 4 rax that hit with 20 rines and 4 medics about 4 years ago. I cant remember the name but there was a video guide. It`s designed to kill 3 hatch muta, and struggled vs 2 hatch.
edit: found it, stylish did an ayumi guide but with 3 rax at once. Is this build faster/more effective?
Yhamm is the god of predictions
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
April 06 2014 05:13 GMT
#15
On April 06 2014 13:44 Scarecrow wrote:
I remember copying a different version of the 4 rax that hit with 20 rines and 4 medics about 4 years ago. I cant remember the name but there was a video guide. It`s designed to kill 3 hatch muta, and struggled vs 2 hatch.
edit: found it, stylish did an ayumi guide but with 3 rax at once. Is this build faster/more effective?


Yeah it works. I feel like any sequence of build that lets you do the bust before the mutas pop accomplishes your goal.
"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
SnowFantasy
Profile Blog Joined September 2006
4173 Posts
April 06 2014 06:29 GMT
#16
no relative timings?
mau5mat
Profile Blog Joined September 2012
Northern Ireland461 Posts
April 06 2014 22:34 GMT
#17
Didn't want to make a new thread for this, but I was wondering if anyone could recommend some good cheese for T in TvP/TvZ/TvT?

If I recall LighT had a nice thread detailing certain builds, but I can't seem to find it.

Great thread btw, good information
Garaman
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
United States556 Posts
April 06 2014 22:39 GMT
#18
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/bw-strategy/86770-stylishs-fpvods-06-10-update

This is possibly the greatest resource for terran players, which includes ayumi build with replays
oDieN[Siege]
Profile Joined November 2009
United States2905 Posts
April 07 2014 17:31 GMT
#19
I guess you not answering explains everything. ^_^ ;D
#Swerve
말크 : ^_^~ NeO)GabuAt, vGODieN
Operations
Profile Joined February 2012
115 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-07 19:32:19
April 07 2014 19:28 GMT
#20
On April 06 2014 12:12 ninazerg wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 06 2014 10:21 puppykiller wrote:
Nice write up but 8 Rax and 2 fact are definitely the best aggressive builds in tvz imo.


The best is to go 8 rax, then follow it with 2 fact speed vultures, expo then go 6 fact.


anyone who wants to get 90% tvz win ratio in iccup, just practice the 5rax +1 build.
marpill
Profile Joined October 2008
Peru30 Posts
April 08 2014 00:38 GMT
#21
mmm i thought ayumi was like this:

•9/10 - Supply Depot
•10/10 - Barracks
•12/18 - Go scout
•15/18 - Supply Depot
•19/26 - Command Center (3 rines)
23/26 - supply depot
•29/34 -add 3 rax -transfer scv
•33/44 - refinery
35/44 academy -cut scv
38/44 depot
''terran ''
Glioburd
Profile Joined April 2008
France1911 Posts
April 08 2014 11:02 GMT
#22
On April 08 2014 04:28 Operations wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 06 2014 12:12 ninazerg wrote:
On April 06 2014 10:21 puppykiller wrote:
Nice write up but 8 Rax and 2 fact are definitely the best aggressive builds in tvz imo.


The best is to go 8 rax, then follow it with 2 fact speed vultures, expo then go 6 fact.


anyone who wants to get 90% tvz win ratio in iccup, just practice the 5rax +1 build.



what if I play a Zerg who knows how to ZvT ?

Great guides Nina, thanks !
"You should hate loosing, but you should never fear defeat." NaDa.
puppykiller
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States3137 Posts
April 08 2014 16:32 GMT
#23
Then you are blessed with a zerg who can give you good games in the matchup.
Why would I play sctoo when I can play BW?
quirinus
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
Croatia2489 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-09 11:05:51
April 09 2014 11:04 GMT
#24
I recommend sending medics first when busting, to soak up the first sunken shot. Plus they'll be in the front healing the first marines that get attacked - unlike if you have them in the back, they sometimes act retarded, get stuck, lag behind so a few marines die before they come, etc. The only problem is that you have to send marines right in after them, and don't make medics walk too long, otherwise they won't heal each other and marines in time so some might die.

When going fact first, I usually like to make a vulture before the first addon, just to scout the zerg, force him/her to make a sunken and to kill any zerglings. Yea, it delays mines, gol range, but I don't find it consequential in most cases if you're aware of the timings and don't delay building/researching things.

Ayumi is supposed to be 4 rax before academy, not 1 rax academy 2 rax iirc. The point is to have a larger amount of units than what's normal at that time (from many early rax) - that's the surprise that a lot of people die to. If you can bust him before mutas, that's great, but otherwise you can just push his base as the mutas are going to pop. Then he'll be forced to defend, which means you don't need to build ebay/turrets as early. You just keep rallying marines to his front, if he moves his mutas away to kill reinforcements or your base, bust his/her ass. You stop rallying when you see him making like the 5th-6th sunken, at which point it might be wise to gather some defense home instead of reinforcing (+more turrets). Some people will panic and try to micro/attack your marines with mutas, but you just laugh at them while you kill their mutas 1-by-1 and push their entrance while teching. You turret up if they're particularly good with microing (or you're bad) or persistent with muta production.

If you do Ayumi, you'll get a win from people you were having a lot of trouble beating before. As nina said, it's a great build to mix in from time to time, and not very hard to do.
You can also go extreme Ayumi with 5 rax, but that's an all-in - if you don't do damage you're toast, because you cut many many scvs and don't have any tech or anything, it's very powerful though.

Kudos on all the recent guides! :D
All candles lit within him, and there was purity. | First auto-promoted BW LP editor.
ninazerg
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States7291 Posts
April 09 2014 11:37 GMT
#25
Update: I fixed up the Ayumi build order a bit. I still don't have a "relative timing" chart for it, but I feel much better about it now. I certainly don't want people doing some fucked-up non-Ayumi thing because of a mistake I made, so I did what I could do to correct it for now and make the guide better. After all, the build is mostly to slam out a shitload of marines, then make medics to go for a bust, so prioritizing the barracks timing first makes sense.

Also, fuck 2-hatch muta. I understand why so many low-level Terrans go for 1-base sunken busts now.
"If two pregnant women get into a fist fight, it's like a mecha-battle between two unborn babies." - Fyodor Dostoevsky
icystorage
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Jollibee19350 Posts
April 10 2014 14:57 GMT
#26
ayumi is awesome. it gives you much better control in the mid game.
i prefer not to cut scvs tho, i want to continue production since i play it in a 'do damage' style rather than 'all-in'
and you might want to mention to scout once comsats are up to check sunken count and tech? (since you have 2 comsats)
awesome write-up! :D
LiquidDota StaffAre you ready for a Miracle-? We are! The International 2017 Champions!
iG.Aura
Profile Blog Joined October 2004
Poland686 Posts
April 10 2014 17:11 GMT
#27
when you're doing the "ayumi", when you're attempting to break sunkens, always go in medics first, and remember 1 medic/sunken +1
:-)
Foolishness *
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States3044 Posts
April 11 2014 04:11 GMT
#28
Great info!
geript: "Foolishness's cases are persuasive and reasonable but leave you feeling dirty afterwards. Kinda like a whore." ---- Manager of the TL Mafia forum, come play!
puppykiller
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States3137 Posts
April 11 2014 04:19 GMT
#29
I just realized how sensationalist the title of this article is lol.
Why would I play sctoo when I can play BW?
[[Starlight]]
Profile Joined December 2013
United States1578 Posts
April 11 2014 05:07 GMT
#30
On April 11 2014 13:19 puppykiller wrote:
I just realized how sensationalist the title of this article is lol.

Nuthin' wrong with a little bit o' salesmanship (saleswomanship?).


User was warned for being hilarious
puppykiller
Profile Blog Joined August 2009
United States3137 Posts
April 11 2014 09:49 GMT
#31
Salesmynship*. xD
Why would I play sctoo when I can play BW?
radley
Profile Joined August 2008
Poland582 Posts
Last Edited: 2014-04-12 13:27:27
April 12 2014 13:26 GMT
#32
Nina, just write about rg-terran bbs build. Its enough vs every zerg, from D- to A+.
Here is proper build and bunker placement (at least in first game):
TL+ Member
[[Starlight]]
Profile Joined December 2013
United States1578 Posts
April 12 2014 20:58 GMT
#33
On April 11 2014 18:49 puppykiller wrote:
Salesmynship*. xD

I don't get it. Perhaps on account of not caring enough.


User was warned for being hilarious
[[Starlight]]
Profile Joined December 2013
United States1578 Posts
April 12 2014 21:24 GMT
#34
On April 08 2014 02:31 oDieN wrote:
I guess [Nina] not answering [my question about her rank] explains everything. ^_^ ;D
#Swerve

Why be pushy about it? Just saw a VOD of her vs Splax (Phlax?), guy narrating it said she was C+ rank at the time. Dunno what she is now.


User was warned for being hilarious
icystorage
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
Jollibee19350 Posts
April 13 2014 12:12 GMT
#35
why would rank be an issue?
LiquidDota StaffAre you ready for a Miracle-? We are! The International 2017 Champions!
shaggles
Profile Joined October 2011
Poland108 Posts
April 14 2014 14:36 GMT
#36
How about two essential guides on dealing with terran all-ins for Z player?
I play the Chess of Computer Age
PAPPDAN
Profile Joined April 2014
Hungary7 Posts
April 14 2014 15:14 GMT
#37
i play 14years bw that false
c+
[[Starlight]]
Profile Joined December 2013
United States1578 Posts
April 21 2014 05:32 GMT
#38
On April 13 2014 21:12 icystorage wrote:
why would rank be an issue?

Good question.


User was warned for being hilarious
Bill Murray
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States9292 Posts
April 26 2014 21:03 GMT
#39
julyzerg best terran of all time when he bust sunkens on guillotine
University of Kentucky Basketball #1
Bill Murray
Profile Blog Joined October 2009
United States9292 Posts
April 26 2014 21:03 GMT
#40
i saw sparks
University of Kentucky Basketball #1
vOdToasT
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
Sweden2870 Posts
May 10 2014 13:58 GMT
#41
I beat the mech all in in TLS by going 3 hatch queen. Same build as 3 hatch muta, except with queens. It was lulzy.
If it's stupid but it works, then it's not stupid* (*Or: You are stupid for losing to it, and gotta git gud)
Normal
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 8m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft: Brood War
Sea 2522
Rain 2026
GuemChi 581
Shuttle 469
Stork 468
Sharp 323
Soma 295
Rush 227
hero 213
Dewaltoss 114
[ Show more ]
Killer 104
Mong 69
NaDa 48
Movie 21
Terrorterran 10
GoRush 8
Britney 0
Dota 2
XcaliburYe520
NeuroSwarm73
League of Legends
JimRising 463
Counter-Strike
summit1g11129
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor248
Other Games
Fuzer 191
oskar129
Mew2King82
febbydoto13
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick705
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Berry_CruncH325
• LUISG 35
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV681
• lizZardDota266
League of Legends
• Jankos1948
• Stunt1012
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
8m
CranKy Ducklings1
Ladder Legends
7h 8m
BSL 21
10h 8m
StRyKeR vs TBD
Bonyth vs TBD
Replay Cast
23h 8m
Wardi Open
1d 2h
Monday Night Weeklies
1d 7h
WardiTV Invitational
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
WardiTV Invitational
4 days
ByuN vs Solar
Clem vs Classic
Cure vs herO
Reynor vs MaxPax
Replay Cast
5 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Acropolis #4 - TS3
RSL Offline Finals
Kuram Kup

Ongoing

C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 4
YSL S2
BSL Season 21
Slon Tour Season 2
CSL Season 19: Qualifier 1
WardiTV 2025
META Madness #9
eXTREMESLAND 2025
SL Budapest Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22

Upcoming

CSL Season 19: Qualifier 2
CSL 2025 WINTER (S19)
BSL 21 Non-Korean Championship
Acropolis #4
IPSL Spring 2026
Bellum Gens Elite Stara Zagora 2026
HSC XXVIII
Big Gabe Cup #3
OSC Championship Season 13
Nations Cup 2026
ESL Pro League Season 23
PGL Cluj-Napoca 2026
IEM Kraków 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter 2026
BLAST Bounty Winter Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.