Hi, I am a casual player, and my APM been stuck around 60 to 70 action per minute. No matter how much "faster" I try to do things, its seems I am stuck there. My micro is slow too, but I can occasionally out macro my opponents.
I picked Zerg because I believe it is the least micro intensive among the 3 races (attack move works most of the time), and I occasionally win my better friends (they have around 90, 100-ish APM) by out-macroing them.
I am wonder, is there any advise for slow players like me? (Please don't ask me to "improve" my speed, I been as slow as this forever, and now I am getting older, don't think I can get faster). What can a slow player focus on in order to get better results? Less micro intensive strategies, what to better spend my attention/APM on etc? Or am I better off playing a game that doesn't require fast hand speed.
I play Zerg and I used to be proud of a 60apm : D and then I figured out that was kinda slow...as Bakuryu says just pick a build order and always play that build order be it 3 hatch Muta, 5 hatch hydra whatever just play those builds over and over so that you can execute them really well and you'll find that if your apm is insufficient to play it it will most likely creep upwards...what I do is just stay focused in the game and while I'm doing one action I think of what action I'm doing next so now I play with 150 apm c: basically just know your build order inside and out....
apm means little to nothing. More than what race, if i where you i would thing: what things i can do with my race? wich race adapts more to my style and my needs? research strategies like drop, turtle, thestove, mid game. Research techniques, like mine placement or if zerg mutalisk control. Research building and sim-city. Practice and develop these things. If you trust your macro, study bulding placement. And have a plan for the game, and try and carry it out
Hi, I am a casual player, and my APM been stuck around 60 to 70 action per minute. No matter how much "faster" I try to do things, its seems I am stuck there. My micro is slow too, but I can occasionally out macro my opponents.
If you are at 60-70 apm your macro is not good. It takes something like 50-60 apm alone just to make drones continuously and tell them to mine.
You might need to focus more on doing what needs to be done and following your build correctly rather than "playing fast". If you are playing ZvP and doing 6 hatch hydra correctly just by doing the build and macroing your apm will easily be over 100.
I picked Zerg because I believe it is the least micro intensive among the 3 races (attack move works most of the time),
Definitely not. A moving against a protoss with storm is a surefire recipe for disaster, and same for many ZvT situations. Not to mention ZvZ is nothing BUT micro. The only time you really see zerg a moving and winning is when they have gotten huge (economically) and just have tons of hatches sending stuff everywhere, usually versus a protoss that is behind.
General thoughts are that protoss is least micro intensive. You can get away with a-moving and maybe some "t -> click" in alot of situations.
I am wonder, is there any advise for slow players like me? (Please don't ask me to "improve" my speed, I been as slow as this forever, and now I am getting older, don't think I can get faster)
Improve. Anyone can improve, it's not about age, it's more a mental factor. It requires -concious effort- especially if you want to improve fast. By mass gaming you can improve with time, but it's a slower process than training.
What can a slow player focus on in order to get better results? Less micro intensive strategies, what to better spend my attention/APM on etc? Or am I better off playing a game that doesn't require fast hand speed.
The problem with even the most basic strategies is that they need as much micro as any other, no matter how simple they are, usually even if a strategy requires micro of just few units, a slow player will ultimately fail even with these. With 60-70 apm you're probably starting to play sc anyway, don't expect instant results. If you went on to play football now, you don't expect to be a premiership player after a week.
There are a lot of players streaming pov, you can see how fast they are and try to improve based on that.
Protoss is the least apm intensive, at least on lower levels.
That being said, ZvP: you can try camping with lurkers once you take another main's natural, and then make ultraling+swarm. ZvT: you could try opening lurkers, massing units and then backstabbing the terran when he moves out; taking a base when you can sneak 2 lurkers to guard the ramp. ZvZ: uhhh... yea. Going hydras would probably work on lower levels, but it's probably not smart to do it. You can try doing some cheeses, but that's not the way to always play. You'll have to micro at one point.
You could definitely win a lot w/ only 60-70 apm, you just have to make sure your build is as smooth as possible and let the timings do the work for you, along w/ efficient hotkey usage.
In ZvZ for instance, you can get a lot of wins on ladder doing 10 hatch ling allin or overgas into 2hatchery 6 muta timing build. Provided your build is sharp enough, you won't need exceptional micro or macro to win a lot of games in the D levels.
In ZvT, you just have to optimize your build enough to survive into the lategame with decent economy and build ultralisks. Lategame TvZ is extremely difficult and requires very strong micro/macro, versus ultra/ling which is much easier to use (but runs into problems in higher skill levels). Large number of Lurkers are also fairly good against D terran players, as they mostly go for bio, w/ poor micro, and not enough tanks or vessels.
ZvP a well-executed 3 hatch hydra bust is very strong and easy to do, or you can go for a passive defensive macro build w/ lurkers and spores to get Ultra/ling, while using a control group of lings to deny protoss from expanding too quickly. Again, Ultra/ling is a very strong unit composition that most D players have trouble handling.
These builds don't require a huge amount of APM, just a refined sense of strategy and timing, and a sense of what you need to do. So you have to sit down, write out your build, and prioritize your gameplay (build/timing/strategy, macro, micro, scouting, etc) and practice it by yourself (start a game vs computer, replace computer slot w/ open as the counter times down, hit continue play when game starts). Contrary to what a lot of ppl think, BW is first and foremost a strategy game, that the player w/ the better strategy/build will win much more often than the player w/ better mechanics.
After you feel like you have the basic strategy/build down in your fingers (muscle memory), you then play vs computers and real people, and chances are it won't go how you think it'll go. This is when you start adjusting your build, and start using your brain to scout and adjust, so it's a good thing you already have the basic outline of the strategy/build memorized. Always keep your priorities in order, but always try to push to micro/switch screens. Your APM will go up as you push yourself and various aspects of your gameplay become muscle memory. I also recommend playing UMS maps to practice micro/mechanics/multitasking on the side, instead of trying to do it only ingame and losing because of it.
You won't win a shitload right away, but imo this is better than trying to do very difficult strategies like Muta-centric plays while your mechanics and understanding are still very basic. By playing easier strategies, you get a better sense of the game flow and unit relations, and how the match-ups works, and you can start trying more adventurous styles as you get better.
Hi, I am a casual player, and my APM been stuck around 60 to 70 action per minute. No matter how much "faster" I try to do things, its seems I am stuck there. My micro is slow too, but I can occasionally out macro my opponents.
If you are at 60-70 apm your macro is not good. It takes something like 50-60 apm alone just to make drones continuously and tell them to mine.
You might need to focus more on doing what needs to be done and following your build correctly rather than "playing fast". If you are playing ZvP and doing 6 hatch hydra correctly just by doing the build and macroing your apm will easily be over 100.
I picked Zerg because I believe it is the least micro intensive among the 3 races (attack move works most of the time),
Definitely not. A moving against a protoss with storm is a surefire recipe for disaster, and same for many ZvT situations. Not to mention ZvZ is nothing BUT micro. The only time you really see zerg a moving and winning is when they have gotten huge (economically) and just have tons of hatches sending stuff everywhere, usually versus a protoss that is behind.
General thoughts are that protoss is least micro intensive. You can get away with a-moving and maybe some "t -> click" in alot of situations.
I agree. P is easiest to play at low level. You should play p and learn some BOs and strats. Just repeat them to know the timings etc.
I think going up faster in tech while staying on a lower amount of bases than pro players is the stronger approach for slow players. It may seem like cheesy tactics, but 36 lings and 24 hydras are way harder to macro and control than some lurkers and ultras for example.
On September 09 2013 00:48 kalandra wrote: Hi, I am a casual player, and my APM been stuck around 60 to 70 action per minute. No matter how much "faster" I try to do things, its seems I am stuck there. My micro is slow too, but I can occasionally out macro my opponents.
I picked Zerg because I believe it is the least micro intensive among the 3 races (attack move works most of the time), and I occasionally win my better friends (they have around 90, 100-ish APM) by out-macroing them.
I am wonder, is there any advise for slow players like me? (Please don't ask me to "improve" my speed, I been as slow as this forever, and now I am getting older, don't think I can get faster). What can a slow player focus on in order to get better results? Less micro intensive strategies, what to better spend my attention/APM on etc? Or am I better off playing a game that doesn't require fast hand speed.
There is this player named Miss.Click... and she runs at about 100-70 apm at any given time. Whats most important is being accurate with your clicks, and knowing your BO from knowing when your weak, to when your at your strongest.
APM at this level will come from simply knowing more things to do any using the keyboard more effectively.
If you have 60 apm you might be relying on moving the screen with the cursor too much. You can spend a lot of energy and play a very intense game sub 100 apm if you just don't have a good understanding of how to do things.
You might watch FPVODs to give you some ideas to incorporate into your own games. You might focus on moving your screen by double tapping a unit group (for buildings or for your army).
If you like arrow keys or fkeys they don't show up in your apm, but they won't count for a significant amount of your apm anyway.
Speed is important for flanks arriving at the same time and for sending masses of units into a battle. Speed is important for microing muta with any proficiency. It's important for all races, but some Protoss styles are more forgiving if you have good storms and strategy understanding. Zerg not so much.
Play whatever race you like best and just have fun. Get better and faster as you play more and feel more comfortable with the UI. You don't necessarily have to spam to train your APM, but you should play the idea in mind that as you know your strategy better you will feel more confident where you need to spend your attention, and you APM will rise with that increase in knowledge. Breaking 200/300 requires dedicated practice, but breaking 100 is just a matter of knowing what you're doing.
Don't be a boring player who just copies build orders though. Get a good foundation of more general concepts that can be applied to many situations and styles. You can win games with a good build order, but they won't really be your wins ;p
Thanks for everyone who ask me to use Protoss, but after playing Zerg so long, I find it more attractive to play.
On September 09 2013 01:27 pebble444 wrote: apm means little to nothing. More than what race, if i where you i would thing: what things i can do with my race? wich race adapts more to my style and my needs? research strategies like drop, turtle, thestove, mid game. Research techniques, like mine placement or if zerg mutalisk control. Research building and sim-city. Practice and develop these things. If you trust your macro, study bulding placement. And have a plan for the game, and try and carry it out
Hi I know APM isn't the best yardstick for anything, but its just a way to say I'm slow. And I'm not really looking to "improve" my APM, it been like that for quite some time, I'm just looking for ways to optimize with what I can do with my poor speed.
On September 09 2013 01:52 CSB wrote: League of Legends
User was warned for this post
Never played this, but I played Dota, and couldn't last hit for the life of me. It just shows my micro isn't really good.
On September 09 2013 05:23 ArvickHero wrote: You could definitely win a lot w/ only 60-70 apm, you just have to make sure your build is as smooth as possible and let the timings do the work for you, along w/ efficient hotkey usage.
In ZvZ for instance, you can get a lot of wins on ladder doing 10 hatch ling allin or overgas into 2hatchery 6 muta timing build. Provided your build is sharp enough, you won't need exceptional micro or macro to win a lot of games in the D levels.
In ZvT, you just have to optimize your build enough to survive into the lategame with decent economy and build ultralisks. Lategame TvZ is extremely difficult and requires very strong micro/macro, versus ultra/ling which is much easier to use (but runs into problems in higher skill levels). Large number of Lurkers are also fairly good against D terran players, as they mostly go for bio, w/ poor micro, and not enough tanks or vessels.
ZvP a well-executed 3 hatch hydra bust is very strong and easy to do, or you can go for a passive defensive macro build w/ lurkers and spores to get Ultra/ling, while using a control group of lings to deny protoss from expanding too quickly. Again, Ultra/ling is a very strong unit composition that most D players have trouble handling.
These builds don't require a huge amount of APM, just a refined sense of strategy and timing, and a sense of what you need to do. So you have to sit down, write out your build, and prioritize your gameplay (build/timing/strategy, macro, micro, scouting, etc) and practice it by yourself (start a game vs computer, replace computer slot w/ open as the counter times down, hit continue play when game starts). Contrary to what a lot of ppl think, BW is first and foremost a strategy game, that the player w/ the better strategy/build will win much more often than the player w/ better mechanics.
After you feel like you have the basic strategy/build down in your fingers (muscle memory), you then play vs computers and real people, and chances are it won't go how you think it'll go. This is when you start adjusting your build, and start using your brain to scout and adjust, so it's a good thing you already have the basic outline of the strategy/build memorized. Always keep your priorities in order, but always try to push to micro/switch screens. Your APM will go up as you push yourself and various aspects of your gameplay become muscle memory. I also recommend playing UMS maps to practice micro/mechanics/multitasking on the side, instead of trying to do it only ingame and losing because of it.
You won't win a shitload right away, but imo this is better than trying to do very difficult strategies like Muta-centric plays while your mechanics and understanding are still very basic. By playing easier strategies, you get a better sense of the game flow and unit relations, and how the match-ups works, and you can start trying more adventurous styles as you get better.
Thanks, very useful advices.
On September 10 2013 11:54 Chef wrote: APM at this level will come from simply knowing more things to do any using the keyboard more effectively.
If you have 60 apm you might be relying on moving the screen with the cursor too much. You can spend a lot of energy and play a very intense game sub 100 apm if you just don't have a good understanding of how to do things.
You might watch FPVODs to give you some ideas to incorporate into your own games. You might focus on moving your screen by double tapping a unit group (for buildings or for your army).
If you like arrow keys or fkeys they don't show up in your apm, but they won't count for a significant amount of your apm anyway.
Speed is important for flanks arriving at the same time and for sending masses of units into a battle. Speed is important for microing muta with any proficiency. It's important for all races, but some Protoss styles are more forgiving if you have good storms and strategy understanding. Zerg not so much.
Play whatever race you like best and just have fun. Get better and faster as you play more and feel more comfortable with the UI. You don't necessarily have to spam to train your APM, but you should play the idea in mind that as you know your strategy better you will feel more confident where you need to spend your attention, and you APM will rise with that increase in knowledge. Breaking 200/300 requires dedicated practice, but breaking 100 is just a matter of knowing what you're doing.
Don't be a boring player who just copies build orders though. Get a good foundation of more general concepts that can be applied to many situations and styles. You can win games with a good build order, but they won't really be your wins ;p
What you're describing seems to fit my situation. I played a few long games where I macro my heart out, and when I finish, my heart was beating mighty fast, I felt very tired but my APM was just 80-ish top.
But I do use ALL the hotkeys given to me, and I even found myself running out of hotkeys! Especially since Zerg have so many units.
What can I do to "use the keyboard more efficiently"? I know you say watch some FPVODs, but I prefer just some quick and easy pointers. Or is there any new "program" that help player macro or anything like that?
in terms of mechanics, you'll simply get faster as things become muscle memory. Much like typing, where it gets faster and easier as you use it more. You may want to listen to Day9's podcasts about mechanics.
It helps to look at pro replays and check how progamers grouped their units, so that you can take note. I think generally, they don't hotkey units past 4-5 control groups, so they just hotkey the most important units and use their mouse speed for the rest.
A couple of "tricks and tips": -when you're boxing units and sending them to attack via minimap (because you have too many units so you can't hotkey them), you want to drag the box from top right to bottom left, so you end up closer to the minimap than otherwise. People often spam "boxing" with their mouse in the early game to practice this movement using all angles possible.
-you might run into the issue when you 1a2a3a4a5a very quickly, one or two control groups might not respond nor follow orders. That's because Starcraft doesn't register mouse clicks when you still have a key pressed down, even if it's for a microsecond. So you should always play w/ this in mind, pressing down your keys w/ just a light tap, and timing your mouse clicks to not overlap.
-When you have idle workers in a mineral line, selecting them individually to mine can be a pain. You can circumvent this by simply boxing them, and then pressing shift+right click onto a mineral patch/geyser. The workers that are already mining won't be affected, and only the workers idling will move to mine.
-use the f-keys and alt-key. Shift + f2/3/4 will set a location hotkey, and alt+1/2/3/etc will set the camera to that control group instantly (instead of double tapping the number). Force yourself to use these so that it becomes second nature.
this is an extremely good video on mechanics, it's SC2 but almost everything said applies to SCBW as Day9 used to be a high level BW player. Spend time on each week trying to work on one specific thing he talks about in that video, e.g. clicking ON things, or using smaller boxes, not hitting the edge of your screen too much. You won't be able to pick it up all at once but if you work on one thing at a time it won't be long before you have very crisp mechanics, and then you can work on speeding things up as you work on getting build orders down.
On September 11 2013 07:07 ArvickHero wrote: in terms of mechanics, you'll simply get faster as things become muscle memory. Much like typing, where it gets faster and easier as you use it more. You may want to listen to Day9's podcasts about mechanics.
It helps to look at pro replays and check how progamers grouped their units, so that you can take note. I think generally, they don't hotkey units past 4-5 control groups, so they just hotkey the most important units and use their mouse speed for the rest.
A couple of "tricks and tips": -when you're boxing units and sending them to attack via minimap (because you have too many units so you can't hotkey them), you want to drag the box from top right to bottom left, so you end up closer to the minimap than otherwise. People often spam "boxing" with their mouse in the early game to practice this movement using all angles possible.
-you might run into the issue when you 1a2a3a4a5a very quickly, one or two control groups might not respond nor follow orders. That's because Starcraft doesn't register mouse clicks when you still have a key pressed down, even if it's for a microsecond. So you should always play w/ this in mind, pressing down your keys w/ just a light tap, and timing your mouse clicks to not overlap.
-When you have idle workers in a mineral line, selecting them individually to mine can be a pain. You can circumvent this by simply boxing them, and then pressing shift+right click onto a mineral patch/geyser. The workers that are already mining won't be affected, and only the workers idling will move to mine.
-use the f-keys and alt-key. Shift + f2/3/4 will set a location hotkey, and alt+1/2/3/etc will set the camera to that control group instantly (instead of double tapping the number). Force yourself to use these so that it becomes second nature.
EPT
