Hi, I am a casual player, and my APM been stuck around 60 to 70 action per minute. No matter how much "faster" I try to do things, its seems I am stuck there. My micro is slow too, but I can occasionally out macro my opponents.
I picked Zerg because I believe it is the least micro intensive among the 3 races (attack move works most of the time), and I occasionally win my better friends (they have around 90, 100-ish APM) by out-macroing them.
I am wonder, is there any advise for slow players like me? (Please don't ask me to "improve" my speed, I been as slow as this forever, and now I am getting older, don't think I can get faster). What can a slow player focus on in order to get better results? Less micro intensive strategies, what to better spend my attention/APM on etc? Or am I better off playing a game that doesn't require fast hand speed.
I play Zerg and I used to be proud of a 60apm : D and then I figured out that was kinda slow...as Bakuryu says just pick a build order and always play that build order be it 3 hatch Muta, 5 hatch hydra whatever just play those builds over and over so that you can execute them really well and you'll find that if your apm is insufficient to play it it will most likely creep upwards...what I do is just stay focused in the game and while I'm doing one action I think of what action I'm doing next so now I play with 150 apm c: basically just know your build order inside and out....
apm means little to nothing. More than what race, if i where you i would thing: what things i can do with my race? wich race adapts more to my style and my needs? research strategies like drop, turtle, thestove, mid game. Research techniques, like mine placement or if zerg mutalisk control. Research building and sim-city. Practice and develop these things. If you trust your macro, study bulding placement. And have a plan for the game, and try and carry it out
Hi, I am a casual player, and my APM been stuck around 60 to 70 action per minute. No matter how much "faster" I try to do things, its seems I am stuck there. My micro is slow too, but I can occasionally out macro my opponents.
If you are at 60-70 apm your macro is not good. It takes something like 50-60 apm alone just to make drones continuously and tell them to mine.
You might need to focus more on doing what needs to be done and following your build correctly rather than "playing fast". If you are playing ZvP and doing 6 hatch hydra correctly just by doing the build and macroing your apm will easily be over 100.
I picked Zerg because I believe it is the least micro intensive among the 3 races (attack move works most of the time),
Definitely not. A moving against a protoss with storm is a surefire recipe for disaster, and same for many ZvT situations. Not to mention ZvZ is nothing BUT micro. The only time you really see zerg a moving and winning is when they have gotten huge (economically) and just have tons of hatches sending stuff everywhere, usually versus a protoss that is behind.
General thoughts are that protoss is least micro intensive. You can get away with a-moving and maybe some "t -> click" in alot of situations.
I am wonder, is there any advise for slow players like me? (Please don't ask me to "improve" my speed, I been as slow as this forever, and now I am getting older, don't think I can get faster)
Improve. Anyone can improve, it's not about age, it's more a mental factor. It requires -concious effort- especially if you want to improve fast. By mass gaming you can improve with time, but it's a slower process than training.
What can a slow player focus on in order to get better results? Less micro intensive strategies, what to better spend my attention/APM on etc? Or am I better off playing a game that doesn't require fast hand speed.
The problem with even the most basic strategies is that they need as much micro as any other, no matter how simple they are, usually even if a strategy requires micro of just few units, a slow player will ultimately fail even with these. With 60-70 apm you're probably starting to play sc anyway, don't expect instant results. If you went on to play football now, you don't expect to be a premiership player after a week.
There are a lot of players streaming pov, you can see how fast they are and try to improve based on that.
Protoss is the least apm intensive, at least on lower levels.
That being said, ZvP: you can try camping with lurkers once you take another main's natural, and then make ultraling+swarm. ZvT: you could try opening lurkers, massing units and then backstabbing the terran when he moves out; taking a base when you can sneak 2 lurkers to guard the ramp. ZvZ: uhhh... yea. Going hydras would probably work on lower levels, but it's probably not smart to do it. You can try doing some cheeses, but that's not the way to always play. You'll have to micro at one point.
You could definitely win a lot w/ only 60-70 apm, you just have to make sure your build is as smooth as possible and let the timings do the work for you, along w/ efficient hotkey usage.
In ZvZ for instance, you can get a lot of wins on ladder doing 10 hatch ling allin or overgas into 2hatchery 6 muta timing build. Provided your build is sharp enough, you won't need exceptional micro or macro to win a lot of games in the D levels.
In ZvT, you just have to optimize your build enough to survive into the lategame with decent economy and build ultralisks. Lategame TvZ is extremely difficult and requires very strong micro/macro, versus ultra/ling which is much easier to use (but runs into problems in higher skill levels). Large number of Lurkers are also fairly good against D terran players, as they mostly go for bio, w/ poor micro, and not enough tanks or vessels.
ZvP a well-executed 3 hatch hydra bust is very strong and easy to do, or you can go for a passive defensive macro build w/ lurkers and spores to get Ultra/ling, while using a control group of lings to deny protoss from expanding too quickly. Again, Ultra/ling is a very strong unit composition that most D players have trouble handling.
These builds don't require a huge amount of APM, just a refined sense of strategy and timing, and a sense of what you need to do. So you have to sit down, write out your build, and prioritize your gameplay (build/timing/strategy, macro, micro, scouting, etc) and practice it by yourself (start a game vs computer, replace computer slot w/ open as the counter times down, hit continue play when game starts). Contrary to what a lot of ppl think, BW is first and foremost a strategy game, that the player w/ the better strategy/build will win much more often than the player w/ better mechanics.
After you feel like you have the basic strategy/build down in your fingers (muscle memory), you then play vs computers and real people, and chances are it won't go how you think it'll go. This is when you start adjusting your build, and start using your brain to scout and adjust, so it's a good thing you already have the basic outline of the strategy/build memorized. Always keep your priorities in order, but always try to push to micro/switch screens. Your APM will go up as you push yourself and various aspects of your gameplay become muscle memory. I also recommend playing UMS maps to practice micro/mechanics/multitasking on the side, instead of trying to do it only ingame and losing because of it.
You won't win a shitload right away, but imo this is better than trying to do very difficult strategies like Muta-centric plays while your mechanics and understanding are still very basic. By playing easier strategies, you get a better sense of the game flow and unit relations, and how the match-ups works, and you can start trying more adventurous styles as you get better.
Hi, I am a casual player, and my APM been stuck around 60 to 70 action per minute. No matter how much "faster" I try to do things, its seems I am stuck there. My micro is slow too, but I can occasionally out macro my opponents.
If you are at 60-70 apm your macro is not good. It takes something like 50-60 apm alone just to make drones continuously and tell them to mine.
You might need to focus more on doing what needs to be done and following your build correctly rather than "playing fast". If you are playing ZvP and doing 6 hatch hydra correctly just by doing the build and macroing your apm will easily be over 100.
I picked Zerg because I believe it is the least micro intensive among the 3 races (attack move works most of the time),
Definitely not. A moving against a protoss with storm is a surefire recipe for disaster, and same for many ZvT situations. Not to mention ZvZ is nothing BUT micro. The only time you really see zerg a moving and winning is when they have gotten huge (economically) and just have tons of hatches sending stuff everywhere, usually versus a protoss that is behind.
General thoughts are that protoss is least micro intensive. You can get away with a-moving and maybe some "t -> click" in alot of situations.
I agree. P is easiest to play at low level. You should play p and learn some BOs and strats. Just repeat them to know the timings etc.
I think going up faster in tech while staying on a lower amount of bases than pro players is the stronger approach for slow players. It may seem like cheesy tactics, but 36 lings and 24 hydras are way harder to macro and control than some lurkers and ultras for example.
On September 09 2013 00:48 kalandra wrote: Hi, I am a casual player, and my APM been stuck around 60 to 70 action per minute. No matter how much "faster" I try to do things, its seems I am stuck there. My micro is slow too, but I can occasionally out macro my opponents.
I picked Zerg because I believe it is the least micro intensive among the 3 races (attack move works most of the time), and I occasionally win my better friends (they have around 90, 100-ish APM) by out-macroing them.
I am wonder, is there any advise for slow players like me? (Please don't ask me to "improve" my speed, I been as slow as this forever, and now I am getting older, don't think I can get faster). What can a slow player focus on in order to get better results? Less micro intensive strategies, what to better spend my attention/APM on etc? Or am I better off playing a game that doesn't require fast hand speed.
There is this player named Miss.Click... and she runs at about 100-70 apm at any given time. Whats most important is being accurate with your clicks, and knowing your BO from knowing when your weak, to when your at your strongest.
APM at this level will come from simply knowing more things to do any using the keyboard more effectively.
If you have 60 apm you might be relying on moving the screen with the cursor too much. You can spend a lot of energy and play a very intense game sub 100 apm if you just don't have a good understanding of how to do things.
You might watch FPVODs to give you some ideas to incorporate into your own games. You might focus on moving your screen by double tapping a unit group (for buildings or for your army).
If you like arrow keys or fkeys they don't show up in your apm, but they won't count for a significant amount of your apm anyway.
Speed is important for flanks arriving at the same time and for sending masses of units into a battle. Speed is important for microing muta with any proficiency. It's important for all races, but some Protoss styles are more forgiving if you have good storms and strategy understanding. Zerg not so much.
Play whatever race you like best and just have fun. Get better and faster as you play more and feel more comfortable with the UI. You don't necessarily have to spam to train your APM, but you should play the idea in mind that as you know your strategy better you will feel more confident where you need to spend your attention, and you APM will rise with that increase in knowledge. Breaking 200/300 requires dedicated practice, but breaking 100 is just a matter of knowing what you're doing.
Don't be a boring player who just copies build orders though. Get a good foundation of more general concepts that can be applied to many situations and styles. You can win games with a good build order, but they won't really be your wins ;p
Thanks for everyone who ask me to use Protoss, but after playing Zerg so long, I find it more attractive to play.
On September 09 2013 01:27 pebble444 wrote: apm means little to nothing. More than what race, if i where you i would thing: what things i can do with my race? wich race adapts more to my style and my needs? research strategies like drop, turtle, thestove, mid game. Research techniques, like mine placement or if zerg mutalisk control. Research building and sim-city. Practice and develop these things. If you trust your macro, study bulding placement. And have a plan for the game, and try and carry it out
Hi I know APM isn't the best yardstick for anything, but its just a way to say I'm slow. And I'm not really looking to "improve" my APM, it been like that for quite some time, I'm just looking for ways to optimize with what I can do with my poor speed.
On September 09 2013 01:52 CSB wrote: League of Legends
User was warned for this post
Never played this, but I played Dota, and couldn't last hit for the life of me. It just shows my micro isn't really good.
On September 09 2013 05:23 ArvickHero wrote: You could definitely win a lot w/ only 60-70 apm, you just have to make sure your build is as smooth as possible and let the timings do the work for you, along w/ efficient hotkey usage.
In ZvZ for instance, you can get a lot of wins on ladder doing 10 hatch ling allin or overgas into 2hatchery 6 muta timing build. Provided your build is sharp enough, you won't need exceptional micro or macro to win a lot of games in the D levels.
In ZvT, you just have to optimize your build enough to survive into the lategame with decent economy and build ultralisks. Lategame TvZ is extremely difficult and requires very strong micro/macro, versus ultra/ling which is much easier to use (but runs into problems in higher skill levels). Large number of Lurkers are also fairly good against D terran players, as they mostly go for bio, w/ poor micro, and not enough tanks or vessels.
ZvP a well-executed 3 hatch hydra bust is very strong and easy to do, or you can go for a passive defensive macro build w/ lurkers and spores to get Ultra/ling, while using a control group of lings to deny protoss from expanding too quickly. Again, Ultra/ling is a very strong unit composition that most D players have trouble handling.
These builds don't require a huge amount of APM, just a refined sense of strategy and timing, and a sense of what you need to do. So you have to sit down, write out your build, and prioritize your gameplay (build/timing/strategy, macro, micro, scouting, etc) and practice it by yourself (start a game vs computer, replace computer slot w/ open as the counter times down, hit continue play when game starts). Contrary to what a lot of ppl think, BW is first and foremost a strategy game, that the player w/ the better strategy/build will win much more often than the player w/ better mechanics.
After you feel like you have the basic strategy/build down in your fingers (muscle memory), you then play vs computers and real people, and chances are it won't go how you think it'll go. This is when you start adjusting your build, and start using your brain to scout and adjust, so it's a good thing you already have the basic outline of the strategy/build memorized. Always keep your priorities in order, but always try to push to micro/switch screens. Your APM will go up as you push yourself and various aspects of your gameplay become muscle memory. I also recommend playing UMS maps to practice micro/mechanics/multitasking on the side, instead of trying to do it only ingame and losing because of it.
You won't win a shitload right away, but imo this is better than trying to do very difficult strategies like Muta-centric plays while your mechanics and understanding are still very basic. By playing easier strategies, you get a better sense of the game flow and unit relations, and how the match-ups works, and you can start trying more adventurous styles as you get better.
Thanks, very useful advices.
On September 10 2013 11:54 Chef wrote: APM at this level will come from simply knowing more things to do any using the keyboard more effectively.
If you have 60 apm you might be relying on moving the screen with the cursor too much. You can spend a lot of energy and play a very intense game sub 100 apm if you just don't have a good understanding of how to do things.
You might watch FPVODs to give you some ideas to incorporate into your own games. You might focus on moving your screen by double tapping a unit group (for buildings or for your army).
If you like arrow keys or fkeys they don't show up in your apm, but they won't count for a significant amount of your apm anyway.
Speed is important for flanks arriving at the same time and for sending masses of units into a battle. Speed is important for microing muta with any proficiency. It's important for all races, but some Protoss styles are more forgiving if you have good storms and strategy understanding. Zerg not so much.
Play whatever race you like best and just have fun. Get better and faster as you play more and feel more comfortable with the UI. You don't necessarily have to spam to train your APM, but you should play the idea in mind that as you know your strategy better you will feel more confident where you need to spend your attention, and you APM will rise with that increase in knowledge. Breaking 200/300 requires dedicated practice, but breaking 100 is just a matter of knowing what you're doing.
Don't be a boring player who just copies build orders though. Get a good foundation of more general concepts that can be applied to many situations and styles. You can win games with a good build order, but they won't really be your wins ;p
What you're describing seems to fit my situation. I played a few long games where I macro my heart out, and when I finish, my heart was beating mighty fast, I felt very tired but my APM was just 80-ish top.
But I do use ALL the hotkeys given to me, and I even found myself running out of hotkeys! Especially since Zerg have so many units.
What can I do to "use the keyboard more efficiently"? I know you say watch some FPVODs, but I prefer just some quick and easy pointers. Or is there any new "program" that help player macro or anything like that?
in terms of mechanics, you'll simply get faster as things become muscle memory. Much like typing, where it gets faster and easier as you use it more. You may want to listen to Day9's podcasts about mechanics.
It helps to look at pro replays and check how progamers grouped their units, so that you can take note. I think generally, they don't hotkey units past 4-5 control groups, so they just hotkey the most important units and use their mouse speed for the rest.
A couple of "tricks and tips": -when you're boxing units and sending them to attack via minimap (because you have too many units so you can't hotkey them), you want to drag the box from top right to bottom left, so you end up closer to the minimap than otherwise. People often spam "boxing" with their mouse in the early game to practice this movement using all angles possible.
-you might run into the issue when you 1a2a3a4a5a very quickly, one or two control groups might not respond nor follow orders. That's because Starcraft doesn't register mouse clicks when you still have a key pressed down, even if it's for a microsecond. So you should always play w/ this in mind, pressing down your keys w/ just a light tap, and timing your mouse clicks to not overlap.
-When you have idle workers in a mineral line, selecting them individually to mine can be a pain. You can circumvent this by simply boxing them, and then pressing shift+right click onto a mineral patch/geyser. The workers that are already mining won't be affected, and only the workers idling will move to mine.
-use the f-keys and alt-key. Shift + f2/3/4 will set a location hotkey, and alt+1/2/3/etc will set the camera to that control group instantly (instead of double tapping the number). Force yourself to use these so that it becomes second nature.
this is an extremely good video on mechanics, it's SC2 but almost everything said applies to SCBW as Day9 used to be a high level BW player. Spend time on each week trying to work on one specific thing he talks about in that video, e.g. clicking ON things, or using smaller boxes, not hitting the edge of your screen too much. You won't be able to pick it up all at once but if you work on one thing at a time it won't be long before you have very crisp mechanics, and then you can work on speeding things up as you work on getting build orders down.
On September 11 2013 07:07 ArvickHero wrote: in terms of mechanics, you'll simply get faster as things become muscle memory. Much like typing, where it gets faster and easier as you use it more. You may want to listen to Day9's podcasts about mechanics.
It helps to look at pro replays and check how progamers grouped their units, so that you can take note. I think generally, they don't hotkey units past 4-5 control groups, so they just hotkey the most important units and use their mouse speed for the rest.
A couple of "tricks and tips": -when you're boxing units and sending them to attack via minimap (because you have too many units so you can't hotkey them), you want to drag the box from top right to bottom left, so you end up closer to the minimap than otherwise. People often spam "boxing" with their mouse in the early game to practice this movement using all angles possible.
-you might run into the issue when you 1a2a3a4a5a very quickly, one or two control groups might not respond nor follow orders. That's because Starcraft doesn't register mouse clicks when you still have a key pressed down, even if it's for a microsecond. So you should always play w/ this in mind, pressing down your keys w/ just a light tap, and timing your mouse clicks to not overlap.
-When you have idle workers in a mineral line, selecting them individually to mine can be a pain. You can circumvent this by simply boxing them, and then pressing shift+right click onto a mineral patch/geyser. The workers that are already mining won't be affected, and only the workers idling will move to mine.
-use the f-keys and alt-key. Shift + f2/3/4 will set a location hotkey, and alt+1/2/3/etc will set the camera to that control group instantly (instead of double tapping the number). Force yourself to use these so that it becomes second nature.
On September 11 2013 13:24 ArvickHero wrote: holding down the right click mouse button and moving the cursor to make a box, where units within it get selected.
On September 11 2013 13:24 ArvickHero wrote: holding down the rightleft (lmao >_>) click mouse button and moving the cursor to make a box, where units within it get selected.
lol. Ok so that is called boxing.
Well I just normally double click at a unit and get 12 of the same unit to A-Move. I do use the minimap to attack, so I don't need to change screens.
I gotten most of the hotkey tips by myself, and I still can't break into 90 APM (Again I'm not asking for more APM, but I just stating, I feel like I'm too slow for starcraft). I do wish SC allow us to select unlimited units for the same unit. Would made things just a little simpler for people like me. And Zerg players.
On September 11 2013 13:24 ArvickHero wrote: holding down the rightleft (lmao >_>) click mouse button and moving the cursor to make a box, where units within it get selected.
lol. Ok so that is called boxing.
Well I just normally double click at a unit and get 12 of the same unit to A-Move. I do use the minimap to attack, so I don't need to change screens.
I gotten most of the hotkey tips by myself, and I still can't break into 90 APM (Again I'm not asking for more APM, but I just stating, I feel like I'm too slow for starcraft). I do wish SC allow us to select unlimited units for the same unit. Would made things just a little simpler for people like me. And Zerg players.
We dont talk about being able to select more than 12 units at once in these parts. Just play and practice and focus that's what I do. My APM is slowly creeping up but I'm not too actively trying to improve it. Know your build. Just select 1-2 standard builds per MU and play only those two (with occasional cheese) and you'll get a lot better. Flash, I believe, has one of the lower APMs as a pro but is a top player c: Bakuryu has noticeably lower APM in the foreign scene but still rolls with the best of foreign players.
On September 11 2013 13:24 ArvickHero wrote: holding down the rightleft (lmao >_>) click mouse button and moving the cursor to make a box, where units within it get selected.
lol. Ok so that is called boxing.
Well I just normally double click at a unit and get 12 of the same unit to A-Move. I do use the minimap to attack, so I don't need to change screens.
I gotten most of the hotkey tips by myself, and I still can't break into 90 APM (Again I'm not asking for more APM, but I just stating, I feel like I'm too slow for starcraft). I do wish SC allow us to select unlimited units for the same unit. Would made things just a little simpler for people like me. And Zerg players.
We dont talk about being able to select more than 12 units at once in these parts. Just play and practice and focus that's what I do. My APM is slowly creeping up but I'm not too actively trying to improve it. Know your build. Just select 1-2 standard builds per MU and play only those two (with occasional cheese) and you'll get a lot better. Flash, I believe, has one of the lower APMs as a pro but is a top player c: Bakuryu has noticeably lower APM in the foreign scene but still rolls with the best of foreign players.
I understand. Flamewars during the development of SC2 was very bad.
I don't follow the competitive scene much nowadays, so what is the standard build nowadays for each matchup?
Are you using hotkeys to make units? In early-midgame, many Zergs will hotkey their hatcheries 5-0 to make units really efficiently (for example, 5sz6sz7sz very quickly makes a bunch of zerglings).
I think you should provide a replay so people can see (with BWChart or similar programs) what you're doing with your clicks--that way you'll be able to get better advice about what you COULD be doing that you aren't.
ZvZ you open with 9 pool, over pool, or 12 hatch usually, occasionally over gas or 5/4 pool and from there you make lings which a few drones if safe and then tech to Muta scourge spam with one or two hatcheries... Ling speed is usually good but your preference or situational. A good cheese (besides 4/5 pool) is 9 hatch where you proxy hatch then build lings...
ZvT is usually 12 hatch tho you can go 9/overpool...most people then go three hatch Muta but you can do 2 hatch Muta, or go Lurkers...from there you go Muta harass to delay for Lurkers while you take a third gas for defiler tech. A cheese I like is 1 hatch lurker.
ZvP probably has the most subtle variations so 12 hatcher 9/overpool, then idk go 3 hatch spire to 5 hatch hydra, or do 4 hatch hydra idk look it up on liquipedia...good cheeses are 3 hatch hydra and slow lurker drop rush
I don't know how good you are, but easy tips to improve your gameplay without focusing on your apm:
1. Pre-group your units into 12 unit clumps so you can just box and A-move. Make sure to set up the fight before hand too. 2. Use 2 handed macro and hotkey every single hatchery. One hand on the numbers, the other on the commands. I would also seriously advise you to get a repeating timer or something that goes off every 10 seconds for you to 1)build stuff 2)rally workers 3)move overlords 3. Use Area hotkeys to change your rally points quickly. Shift+F2/F3/F4 and then press f2/f3/f4 to recall to that location. IF you're zerg and you have low APM, I would also seriously advise you to abuse the shit out of assigning and resigning area hotkeys to let you box A-move a lot easier. EX: If you set 2 locations with F2 and F3, The command for moving your entire army from point F2 to point F3 is : Box, F3, A-move, F2, Box, F3, A-move, etc. Alternatively, you can use the minimap, but the former method will eventually be quicker to do because you're putting the burden on both hands instead of just 1 hand to do the entire thing. (you can change locations without changing control groups btw). Doubletap between different units across the map constantly to change your screen. Don't use your mouse to move teh screen if you can. (i.e, if you want to track your zerglings going to the enemy base, hotkey them to 1, and constantly press 111111111 instead of 11 and using your cursor to look at them move) Use spacebar to take you back to the last recent alert. (i.e, you're getting attacked, press spacebar to go to the attacked unit). Left-click the minimap the move to that location instead of using the cursor.
Most people with high APM still use the mouse to move the screen too much; if you can get this down, you'll increase your efficiency tenfold.
4. You're going to need some form of multitasking/distraction to counter players with higher APM. I would suggest you look into a 2cm lurker drop (research transport, then send 2 lurkers to edge of base, use overlord to transport them slowly) as a counter play before moving your force out.
5. Learn how to shift command for your lurkers. 1) Press and hold shift 2) move lurkers to place where you want them to burrow 3)tell them to burrow 4)release shift. This will help alleviate any multitasking that you will have to do.
On September 11 2013 13:24 ArvickHero wrote: holding down the rightleft (lmao >_>) click mouse button and moving the cursor to make a box, where units within it get selected.
lol. Ok so that is called boxing.
Well I just normally double click at a unit and get 12 of the same unit to A-Move. I do use the minimap to attack, so I don't need to change screens.
I gotten most of the hotkey tips by myself, and I still can't break into 90 APM (Again I'm not asking for more APM, but I just stating, I feel like I'm too slow for starcraft). I do wish SC allow us to select unlimited units for the same unit. Would made things just a little simpler for people like me. And Zerg players.
Well that's kinda the tradeoff for zerg because we have somewhat easier macro but we need to deal with more units. I'd recommend 4 control groups for army and the rest for hatcheries and practice doing 1a2a3a4a 5sh6sh7sh8sh9sh0sh or whatever unit you want to build. Practice macroing and a-moving in notepad before you start up a game, i know it helps me.
Also use crtl+click instead of double clicking to select units. It's easier that way.
I think the numpad ends up scrolling like arrow keys :/ also it's too far away from the other hotkeys... And when I try mech Terran sieging and unsieging and laying mines and pushing seems to require so much more apm
On September 13 2013 00:59 traceurling wrote: I think the numpad ends up scrolling like arrow keys :/ also it's too far away from the other hotkeys... And when I try mech Terran sieging and unsieging and laying mines and pushing seems to require so much more apm
Zerg is so micro intensive... look at zvz and zvt, no micro = death and zvp you will need less micro than the others matchups, but vs storm you will need intensive micro.
For me, one of the best ways I got my APM to increase was just to practice spamming.
Seems stupid, but just constantly keeping your fingers moving, hitting 12312345, constantly moving your cameras, boxing units, and whatnot gives you increased speed. Eventually with that increase speed, you want to find ways to attribute those actions to something useful. So it won't be much of a stretch to go from hitting 123 123 all the way to, look at hatchery look at units, to move and overlord, suddenly switch to a hatchery and send your drones to mining, move over to your zergling to scouting. Eventually, that inefficient spamming of actions will transition into efficient macro.
And if you think age is a problem, I ask - Can you hit 12345 quickly and rhythmically? If so, you can probably start playing fast.
On September 12 2013 09:47 imBLIND wrote: 5. Learn how to shift command for your lurkers. 1) Press and hold shift 2) move lurkers to place where you want them to burrow 3)tell them to burrow 4)release shift. This will help alleviate any multitasking that you will have to do.
thats not possible, u cant shift-burrow lurkers.
@ kalandra to give u a more appropriate advice, i would need a 15+ minute replay of u playing a zvp ot zvt (u can pm me or add me on skype: mf-bakuryu) u have 2 choices to play with low apm, either an all-in build completely focused on micro, or a macro build completely focused on macro and a move. but regardless of your build, there are situations where he can use high amount of apm to force u into similar amount of apm, and those situations just cant all be evaded (for example, probe blocking your natural with a pylon)
APM means shit. High APM = Knowing exactly what to do + spamming.
As long as you have the ''Knowing exactly what to do'' part down you'll be fine without high APM and at that point it's not that hard to increase it anyway.
Your apm might be low because you aren't aware of the many things you have to keep doing in BW, eg building workers, making supply depots, keeping resources low without queuing, macroing, controlling army, etc. There's already lots of good advice in this thread. I would just add that you shouldn't be too worried about apm but you should focus more on knowing what has to be done and when. Once you know that your apm will naturally increase. Nobody is capped at 60 apm unless they have some sort of mobility disorder.
On September 14 2013 17:28 thezanursic wrote: APM means shit. High APM = Knowing exactly what to do + spamming.
As long as you have the ''Knowing exactly what to do'' part down you'll be fine without high APM and at that point it's not that hard to increase it anyway.
That's not entirely true, sometimes you know exactly what to do but aren't fast enough to do it as quickly as you'd like. I can be patently aware at a particular point in time that I want to put down a base, micro these units, drop a base, while hitting my macro keys, but I'm simply not fast enough yet to be able to pull it off in the few seconds I want to be able to achieve it in. Sure, APM isn't correlated with skill, but sometimes APM can be a limiting factor in improving your play (A limiting factor, not THE limiting factor xD).
im no expert nor a very good player but in my experience playing protoss has been the least stressful out of the 3 races .. you should play toss ...
i find zerg to be the hardest to efficiently multitask .. in my best shape i always have like almost 900 minerals floating .. while terran for me is the easiest to macro or maybe just the easiest to remember to macro
that you have apm around 60-70 might mean that you even don't macro well yet ( i.e. you have minerals being stacked up to 1000+ ), beside until you will reach sufficient level of macroing - building your units, supply's and building structure, you can forget about micro, strategy, tactic and bo's ( up to that level you can Literally just build enough units and send them Blind ).
What you need to do: 1. forget about online/competetive play for a while and just practice your macro A Lot, to be exact enter single mode, make few buildings, like 8 hatcheries and just build and send hydras all the time, building constantly from 8 hatcheries without your mineral going under 1000 line ( or lower ) - USING YOUR HOTKEYS for 3-4+ hatcheries minimum - you will see the results quickly after starting to do that because your intuitive skills will start to increase dramatically
2. then pick up your BO and do the same on single player mode until you can have all your timings reached perfect
3. than you can start to practice online ( until you will get into your comfort zone, then you will start to Slowly pick up what's going on and pick up some feel for the game )
4. USE YOUR HOTKEYS - it is going to Help you
all this done after 2-3 hours ( that's my bet ) will get your APM around 100 - 150 - without an effort and focusing on your speed just actions, and never focus on your APM itself, it is just the Side effect and a measurable effect your play ( which means, in other words something you don't have to bother with, it is just an information that probably until you get around 200+ you might be doing things a little to slow )
1. Pre-group your units into 12 unit clumps so you can just box and A-move. Make sure to set up the fight before hand too. 2. Use 2 handed macro and hotkey every single hatchery. One hand on the numbers, the other on the commands. I would also seriously advise you to get a repeating timer or something that goes off every 10 seconds for you to 1)build stuff 2)rally workers 3)move overlords 3. Use Area hotkeys to change your rally points quickly. Shift+F2/F3/F4 and then press f2/f3/f4 to recall to that location. IF you're zerg and you have low APM, I would also seriously advise you to abuse the shit out of assigning and resigning area hotkeys to let you box A-move a lot easier. EX: If you set 2 locations with F2 and F3, The command for moving your entire army from point F2 to point F3 is : Box, F3, A-move, F2, Box, F3, A-move, etc. Alternatively, you can use the minimap, but the former method will eventually be quicker to do because you're putting the burden on both hands instead of just 1 hand to do the entire thing. (you can change locations without changing control groups btw). Doubletap between different units across the map constantly to change your screen. Don't use your mouse to move teh screen if you can. (i.e, if you want to track your zerglings going to the enemy base, hotkey them to 1, and constantly press 111111111 instead of 11 and using your cursor to look at them move) Use spacebar to take you back to the last recent alert. (i.e, you're getting attacked, press spacebar to go to the attacked unit). Left-click the minimap the move to that location instead of using the cursor.
Most people with high APM still use the mouse to move the screen too much; if you can get this down, you'll increase your efficiency tenfold.
4. You're going to need some form of multitasking/distraction to counter players with higher APM. I would suggest you look into a 2cm lurker drop (research transport, then send 2 lurkers to edge of base, use overlord to transport them slowly) as a counter play before moving your force out.
5. Learn how to shift command for your lurkers. 1) Press and hold shift 2) move lurkers to place where you want them to burrow 3)tell them to burrow 4)release shift. This will help alleviate any multitasking that you will have to do.
Thanks, alot of good advice here. I'm just looking for this kinda advise, not ways to improve my APM.
On September 12 2013 09:47 imBLIND wrote: 5. Learn how to shift command for your lurkers. 1) Press and hold shift 2) move lurkers to place where you want them to burrow 3)tell them to burrow 4)release shift. This will help alleviate any multitasking that you will have to do.
thats not possible, u cant shift-burrow lurkers.
@ kalandra to give u a more appropriate advice, i would need a 15+ minute replay of u playing a zvp ot zvt (u can pm me or add me on skype: mf-bakuryu) u have 2 choices to play with low apm, either an all-in build completely focused on micro, or a macro build completely focused on macro and a move. but regardless of your build, there are situations where he can use high amount of apm to force u into similar amount of apm, and those situations just cant all be evaded (for example, probe blocking your natural with a pylon)
Sorry, won't be providing any replay. But I doubt I am any different from the general noob. I think I try all the advise given to me first. And I mostly play macro games.
On September 14 2013 20:58 ihufa wrote: Hi im really fat and I'd like to get healthy, what should I do? Please don't say lose weight
Thanks for the mockery, but merely improving speed isn't as direct as losing weight.
On September 15 2013 00:32 goody153 wrote: im no expert nor a very good player but in my experience playing protoss has been the least stressful out of the 3 races .. you should play toss ...
i find zerg to be the hardest to efficiently multitask .. in my best shape i always have like almost 900 minerals floating .. while terran for me is the easiest to macro or maybe just the easiest to remember to macro
On September 15 2013 01:36 krzych113 wrote: that you have apm around 60-70 might mean that you even don't macro well yet ( i.e. you have minerals being stacked up to 1000+ ), beside until you will reach sufficient level of macroing - building your units, supply's and building structure, you can forget about micro, strategy, tactic and bo's ( up to that level you can Literally just build enough units and send them Blind ). + Show Spoiler +
What you need to do: 1. forget about online/competetive play for a while and just practice your macro A Lot, to be exact enter single mode, make few buildings, like 8 hatcheries and just build and send hydras all the time, building constantly from 8 hatcheries without your mineral going under 1000 line ( or lower ) - USING YOUR HOTKEYS for 3-4+ hatcheries minimum - you will see the results quickly after starting to do that because your intuitive skills will start to increase dramatically
2. then pick up your BO and do the same on single player mode until you can have all your timings reached perfect
3. than you can start to practice online ( until you will get into your comfort zone, then you will start to Slowly pick up what's going on and pick up some feel for the game )
4. USE YOUR HOTKEYS - it is going to Help you
all this done after 2-3 hours ( that's my bet ) will get your APM around 100 - 150 - without an effort and focusing on your speed just actions, and never focus on your APM itself, it is just the Side effect and a measurable effect your play ( which means, in other words something you don't have to bother with, it is just an information that probably until you get around 200+ you might be doing things a little to slow )
GL
I can usually finish my gas but have mineral floating. Since Zerg is so gas heavy, doesn't finishing your gas means you're doing fine? There is only so much Zergling and Overlord I can use.
And I am practicing with the CPU, trying improve my macro and build order.
I can usually finish my gas but have mineral floating. Since Zerg is so gas heavy, doesn't finishing your gas means you're doing fine? There is only so much Zergling and Overlord I can use.
"Zerg is gas heavy, so it's fine to bank minerals with them," is a misconception I see too often. All Zerg mineral expenditures are useful, as long as you manage them properly and make them at the right stages of the game. Every Drone can be more resource, tech buildings, defense buildings, every Overlord can be more scouting, map vision, drop capacity, every Zergling is more fighting power, and every Hatchery is more of everything. Of course, with limited APM you might want to prioritize other aspects of the game, but that is why we as players always strive to do more, because there is always more to do.
My advice for a low APM, high minerals situation is to just build Hatchery. Too many low level Zergs suffer in mid-game when they forget to add the macro hatches on time. Still, literally nothing else is a proper substitute for morphing your larvae into units. Capped idle larvae + money in the bank is bad bad bad bad bad.
There is always room for improvement the more things you can do at hand at a single time frame the better you will become because bw is a game where you are in a battle against yourself and of a opponent...
APM this low is pretty much improved simply by playing your style and familiar builds and getting better and more efficient at them.
Always play faster than what feels comfortable; over time you will grow accustomed to the speed you're attempting to reach and will be able to increase it to a ceiling level one day. Don't mess with your mouse settings much. Your speed comes more from how quickly you make decisions and how accurate your clicks and key-presses are. What you want to work on is reducing the downtime between a decision, and an action.
Lastly, ignore your APM. It's situational a lot of the time (can be based on game length and required actions as much as your actual maximum speed) and frankly, isn't that important. APM doesn't win you games outright. It's your macro, composition, tactics, positioning and scouting. Focus on improving those and you'll find your APM will reflect your comfort level with your style.
If you want to try Protoss: PvP and PvT can be played to your strength, which seems to be macro, by mass production from gateways and later arbiters. Multitasking corsairs in PvZ is a a whole different ballpark, though, and will need a lot of specific practice.
Focus on the game, not APM. Knowing the game will improve your skills and as a result of that you'll slowly, but steady improve your APM aswell.
Here is a list of things to improve in order to get better. This goes for players at all levels, players that are C are having the same problems you do, just not at the same extent. I assume you have already selected a certain type of hotkeys. You should also use shift+F2/F3/F4 to jump to locations you are spending a lot of time (first, second and third base for example)
1) Buildorders and scouting - This goes for all races. To get better at Starcraft you have to know when it is likely that your opponent will try to attack. Scouting is crucial to know what you are facing. As you get better you will also get to know when the opponent is weak depending on their build order and adjust yours accordingly to attack at that time. Focus on one single buildorder at a time and try to improve it untill you feel comfortable enough with the timings.
2) Economy - You should try to learn when to get more production facilities so your economy does not outweigh your possibility to produce units. This goes both ways obviously. Having five hatcherys off two bases with a standard saturation will not get you very far.
3) Macro - As mentioned several times, you can achieve high ranks solely because of strong macro. To get strong macro you'll first have to know how to adjust to your opponent (or force him to adjusting to you), when to be greedy and when to produce units - hence having economy, build order and scouting as a higher priority. If you suddenly float 1500 minerals it might not be the correct response to produce four additional hatcheries as you might have slipped up on macro and therefore bank a lot - your economy might not support the addiotional hatcherys.
You'll pick up certain things when you play and improve based on that. More hours = more experience. There is no formula to suddenly become good. Time and dedication is key. The micro will improve alongside doing the things noted above as you'll have more time to focus on it.
i'd say change your hotkeys to emulate a professional player, make sure you have the right hardware and attitude, practice your ass off and lose a ton. the third part is the most important, but if you stop improving speed it's often because there is something wrong with how u are using your hands on the keyboard. most players in pro houses are forced to relearn hotkeys because they are horrible setups when they join usually. rebinding everything will make you suck for a while but if you really want to improve your speed you should first analyze your badhabits in hand movement. the vast majority of APM comes from fitting in macro actions in between micro actions and good cycling habits
the only real answer is to get faster, you're asking how to win a race while running slower than the other guy. sure you can throw rocks at him or steal his shoes before the race starts but that won't work every time or even most of the time
I am a really slow player, too. When I started I was barely above 100 apm. Apm is by no means indicative of skill. Of course, the faster you are the better your chances are. However, I have seen players with 400 apm who are terrible and players with 150 apm who are insanely good. What helped me get better is setting specific goals and setting my priorities on meeting them. For example, I try to always go for a fast tech in PvT to get fast arbiters. While I build probes and units, I always have on my mind that I have to build a citadel/stargate+templar archives/arbiter tribunal and set them as my priorities for the matchup. I also try to pay attention to not get supply blocked and spend my money as fast as possible. I still aquire huge banks in my games, but my overall success has improved. I still don't manage to meet all of my goals, but always thinking about them makes me execute them faster than before. As a result my apm has improved and now I often reach 130-140+ apm.
What I can suggest is: - set yourself specific goals before every game. Set meeting them as your highest priority! - always think about not getting supply blocked. - Prioritize your macro! Micro is important but if you don't have enough units micro won't help you at all.
You probably won't be able to achieve all of the goals mentioned above. However, simply trying to reach them and always thinking about them has improved my play a lot. I am sure you would benefit just as well.
On October 17 2013 08:27 rauk wrote: the only real answer is to get faster, you're asking how to win a race while running slower than the other guy. sure you can throw rocks at him or steal his shoes before the race starts but that won't work every time or even most of the time
i find it quite strange as to why most people here are against having high apm and are against the inclination that there is a positive correlation between apm and skill. not necessarily a linear correlation but a correlation nonetheless. pros talk about apm all the time and how they work to increase it. i dont see why you shouldn't make an effort to do likewise.
On October 17 2013 13:30 JMave wrote: i find it quite strange as to why most people here are against having high apm and are against the inclination that there is a positive correlation between apm and skill. not necessarily a linear correlation but a correlation nonetheless. pros talk about apm all the time and how they work to increase it. i dont see why you shouldn't make an effort to do likewise.
You just answered your own question.
People here are not pros and don't want to work on increasing it.
I want high APM cuz it'll be useful "Hey I have 800 APM, wanna go on a date?" Who could resist?
But seriously though why not just get higher APM because every advantage you get helps and it can't be denied that high APM is an advantage (even nonbelievers have to acknowledge there is at least a small advantage at the least in having higher APM)
On October 17 2013 13:30 JMave wrote: i find it quite strange as to why most people here are against having high apm and are against the inclination that there is a positive correlation between apm and skill. not necessarily a linear correlation but a correlation nonetheless. pros talk about apm all the time and how they work to increase it. i dont see why you shouldn't make an effort to do likewise.
You just answered your own question.
People here are not pros and don't want to work on increasing it.
oh ok. so why even bother following build orders that were designed by pros?
On October 17 2013 13:30 JMave wrote: i find it quite strange as to why most people here are against having high apm and are against the inclination that there is a positive correlation between apm and skill. not necessarily a linear correlation but a correlation nonetheless. pros talk about apm all the time and how they work to increase it. i dont see why you shouldn't make an effort to do likewise.
You just answered your own question.
People here are not pros and don't want to work on increasing it.
oh ok. so why even bother following build orders that were designed by pros?
Because builds are optimized by pros, and therefore can probably be replicated with 100 apm. However, the unit movement, reaction time, and consequent macro require higher apm than is available to people who are not trying to improve their speed.
On October 17 2013 13:30 JMave wrote: i find it quite strange as to why most people here are against having high apm and are against the inclination that there is a positive correlation between apm and skill. not necessarily a linear correlation but a correlation nonetheless. pros talk about apm all the time and how they work to increase it. i dont see why you shouldn't make an effort to do likewise.
You just answered your own question.
People here are not pros and don't want to work on increasing it.
oh ok. so why even bother following build orders that were designed by pros?
Because builds are optimized by pros, and therefore can probably be replicated with 100 apm. However, the unit movement, reaction time, and consequent macro require higher apm than is available to people who are not trying to improve their speed.
build orders are streamlined towards a particular goal and will therefore have requirements of unit movements, reaction time and consequent macro that need a certain speed of a player to pull off. so if there is a choice to follow their framework then there should also be steps made to follow as closely as possible to their capability to be able to manage all of these things.
On October 17 2013 13:30 JMave wrote: i find it quite strange as to why most people here are against having high apm and are against the inclination that there is a positive correlation between apm and skill. not necessarily a linear correlation but a correlation nonetheless. pros talk about apm all the time and how they work to increase it. i dont see why you shouldn't make an effort to do likewise.
You just answered your own question.
People here are not pros and don't want to work on increasing it.
oh ok. so why even bother following build orders that were designed by pros?
Because builds are optimized by pros, and therefore can probably be replicated with 100 apm. However, the unit movement, reaction time, and consequent macro require higher apm than is available to people who are not trying to improve their speed.
build orders are streamlined towards a particular goal and will therefore have requirements of unit movements, reaction time and consequent macro that need a certain speed of a player to pull off. so if there is a choice to follow their framework then there should also be steps made to follow as closely as possible to their capability to be able to manage all of these things.
Pretty sure I could 2 fac, rax fe, 99 gate, 12 nex, 12 hatch 11 pool, 9 pool speed etc. with under 100 apm if I tried at a REASONABLE level of mastery. It's what comes after is that is the more demanding aspect.
Play protoss and concentrate on two player low eco maps. Use clever build orders to create an economic advantage, compensate for bad macro with an oversaturation of gateways and then seize and hold key expansion locations so you're on top when the money runs out. Works up to the highest foreigner levels.
On October 18 2013 10:16 KwarK wrote: Play protoss and concentrate on two player low eco maps. Use clever build orders to create an economic advantage, compensate for bad macro with an oversaturation of gateways and then seize and hold key expansion locations so you're on top when the money runs out. Works up to the highest foreigner levels.
^ Trust this man.
Also try to play PvT on Longinus. I imagine good obs positioning is important.
On October 18 2013 10:16 KwarK wrote: Play protoss and concentrate on two player low eco maps. Use clever build orders to create an economic advantage, compensate for bad macro with an oversaturation of gateways and then seize and hold key expansion locations so you're on top when the money runs out. Works up to the highest foreigner levels.
On September 10 2013 11:54 Chef wrote: APM at this level will come from simply knowing more things to do any using the keyboard more effectively.
If you have 60 apm you might be relying on moving the screen with the cursor too much. You can spend a lot of energy and play a very intense game sub 100 apm if you just don't have a good understanding of how to do things.
You might watch FPVODs to give you some ideas to incorporate into your own games. You might focus on moving your screen by double tapping a unit group (for buildings or for your army).
If you like arrow keys or fkeys they don't show up in your apm, but they won't count for a significant amount of your apm anyway.
Speed is important for flanks arriving at the same time and for sending masses of units into a battle. Speed is important for microing muta with any proficiency. It's important for all races, but some Protoss styles are more forgiving if you have good storms and strategy understanding. Zerg not so much.
Play whatever race you like best and just have fun. Get better and faster as you play more and feel more comfortable with the UI. You don't necessarily have to spam to train your APM, but you should play the idea in mind that as you know your strategy better you will feel more confident where you need to spend your attention, and you APM will rise with that increase in knowledge. Breaking 200/300 requires dedicated practice, but breaking 100 is just a matter of knowing what you're doing.
Don't be a boring player who just copies build orders though. Get a good foundation of more general concepts that can be applied to many situations and styles. You can win games with a good build order, but they won't really be your wins ;p
What you're describing seems to fit my situation. I played a few long games where I macro my heart out, and when I finish, my heart was beating mighty fast, I felt very tired but my APM was just 80-ish top.
But I do use ALL the hotkeys given to me, and I even found myself running out of hotkeys! Especially since Zerg have so many units.
What can I do to "use the keyboard more efficiently"? I know you say watch some FPVODs, but I prefer just some quick and easy pointers. Or is there any new "program" that help player macro or anything like that?
It's counter-intuitive, but since people learned to macro, Zerg prioritize hotkeying hatcheries over hotkeying units. only 1-3 are devoted to units. 4-0 can be all hatcheries (though some players say they can reach past 8 and only use 4-8, including Jaedong). It's only one thing, but training your hand to 4sz5sz6sz7sz8sz very quickly is one such optimized movement for making a lot of zerglings fast. As opposed to, say, the old tsunami style where all your hotkeys were devoted to army and you just clicked your buildings to make units (that takes a lot energy). As an aside, sometimes players will hotkey units to 4 and 5 in anticipation of an attack, but after it ends they'll rehotkey their hatcheries.
Another example is how you select groups of units. Double clicking is inefficient/prone to error. ctrl+click is very fast. ctrl click on a unit in a wireframe will help you separate selected units of different types quickly, such as drones under overlords.
Using the fkeys (and setting them at the beginning of the game) will make transferring peons simpler.
Using shift to give units additional orders (like scouting units, or scvs building) will lower the attention you need to spend on them, leaving you free to do things elsewhere.
Telling a unit you want to build with to go to your geyser can help get it out of the mineral line so you don't waste time watching it get stuck on peons.
There are plenty of little optimizations a player can do that will make playing faster possible. To list them all is more than the scope of this reply. I doubt I even know all of them.
Another way is to build many hatcheries in one place and bind the camera location on lets say F4. When you need to build many units of same type you press F4, CTRL + Left mouse on Larva. Hotkey of the unit. So only 4 clicks.
If you want to build not that many units of same type you can click F4, Box in the needed larva, Hotkey of the unit. Just 3 clicks.
repetition of a build order. i recommend playing against AI, same race and map a few times every day or more depending on your time.
just drilling it over and over will let you do everything quickly without thinking.
spamming hotkeys is good just for pumping up the number, though many TL'ers will tell you not to worry. hotkey trainers. SC2 has lots and lots of training tools for this sort of thing if you have it.
EPT
